To SMP or not to SMP?

[junebuguf]

I've asked this question of a few people through pm's, and gotten varied responses so I thought I'd ask it here to see what kind of feedback I get. I'm currently debating doing an SMP program during this, 2005-2006, application year, yet have serious reservations about it and I'm looking for input regarding whether it would (or would not) be a good idea consdering my circumstances. Brief overview:

Overall gpa: 2.9
BCMP: 3.28
62 hours of undergrad Biology post-bacc in the last two years with several honors courses and a 3.97 gpa.
GPA in last 90 hours: 3.65
MCAT: 35-37 (probably)
Average LORs
Average ECs--shadowing, some orgs, no real leaderships positions, 120+ hours of volunteering, honors orgs--Tri-Beta, Honors Student Org, et.


My questions are:

1) I'm applying to a lot of schools (think north of 35, dont have choice, see numbers above), and the program starts in a few weeks so I would certainly be hard-pressed to do well and fill out secondary essays. Will it be impossible to do both, as well as interview?

2) I am absolutely applying this year (unless I get less than 33 on the MCAT), so will an SMP help me as much as I think, since I wont have a full year's grades?

3) I know many people with my numbers have applied before, failed, done an SMP and then been successful, but I havent heard from many who have simply done a year or two of post-bacc at the undergrad level and then applied. So my other question: is an SMP essential for me to have a good shot at matriculating somewhere next fall?

My other alternative is to do research, which I'm currently doing, but it is seriously doubtful that I will have a publication by next May and I really really hate going in to lab everyday--it is a totally depressing and mildly suicidal experience, which is why I'm considering the SMP route. I could also go back home, work for my parents in the family business, make lots of $$$ and be happy!

So what do you think: do I need to do an SMP?

I would particularly appreciate opinions from former SMP grads and those who have applied without it (but with lower, if not catastrophically so, numbers.)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[mizzoudude]

You haven't heard stories of people just doing post bacc work by themselves and then being a successful applicant to allopathic schools?
You seem to have really showed improvement in the last 62 hours of your post-bacc work...why don't you think you have a shot? Especially if you get a 33 or better on the MCAT...I think you have a really really good shot at getting in. Are you just being on the safe side and being self critical to expect the worst?

I have a 3.1 undergrad GPA in bio. I am going to go to Tulane and do the one year masters program and bust my butt to get a 4.0. I will perhaps take the MCAT again (since I only have a 27) and if I get more than a 30 or so...I think I have a pretty good chance of getting in somewhere. I hope you the best and share your ideas. You are one of the most active and most contributing members of SDN. Thanks dude...keep it up...and once again good luck to you.

 

[Singing Devil]

Well, you know my opinion--I didn't want to apply again without doing everything I could to help my chances, so I did the SMP. In your case, you make a good argument against it. I can only help, I would think, but it ain't cheap, so money is an issue. Have you thought about going down the road and asking the people at USF, FSU, UF, etc.? They might give you good idea at what would make you competitive.

 

[sunnyjohn]

junebuguf,

Sounds like you might go postal if you stay in that lab.

What SMP are you looking at?

Personally, I think you are going to get in this app cyccle. You have lots of positive momentum and upward trend of grades and good karma on your side!

I think you could probably do the secondaries and the SMP work. Instead of sliding up next to the honey's, devout your Friday evenings to filling out secondaries! That way you can do the SMP work the rest of the week.

You'll just be dropping out of the SMP when UTSW, Jeff or Duke come o their senses and begs you to enroll.

Anyway good luck, but you don't need it.

Keep posting. You post are very helpful.

Agape

 

[lightnk102]

Firstly - I don't think filling out secondaries and interviewing will be that bad while you're doing the SMP. I had a few friends who were doing this and they did fine in their classes. It does take some additional time management and juggling, and you'll have to bring your books with you onto planes, but it's definitely do-able. besides, all secondaries should ideally be in before end of August, so you'd only be occupied for the first month or two of classes.

Secondly, this is the way I see your situation:

1) applying this year for sure. don't do SMP. get in. save yourself $40k.
2) applying this year for sure. don't do SMP. don't get in. have to re-apply with doubts. may enroll in SMP then - thus setting yourself back 1 year.
3) applying this year for sure. do SMP. get in. wasted $40k.
4) applying this year for sure. do SMP. don't get in. can apply right away next year with SMP grades with added assurance.

It's tough to say how adcoms will view your transcript. obviously - you've done very well in the more recent years. if they take just your recent grades wiht your MCAT, you're golden. if they consider your undergrad transcript, it's a bit iffy. In my mind - what it boils down to is this: how much of a risk do you want to take? If your aim is to get into med school ASAP, then i would do the SMP, apply this year, and have the SMP grades available in case I have to re-apply. It'd be a $40,000 safety net. This would cover all your bases, but also cost a pretty penny. The other option is to take your chances and don't do the SMP. Ideally if you take this second option, you'll get in and everything will have worked out perfectly. It's more of an all or nothing proposal. So, when you gamble at the casinos, are you a 'balls-to-the-wall' sort of guy?

When I interviewed as an SMP grad, my undergraduate transcript was addressed at 2/3 of my interviews. I did get into more than one allopathic school, so though past poor performance may not be a dominant concern, it does seem to be a concern of some sort. Just a general trend I noticed among some of my fellow SMP grads - the ones who scored well on the MCAT's fared better in med school interviews and acceptances than ones who didn't score as well (<30, but may have had higher GPA's). I'm not sure what that means, but with a strong MCAT score, you could very well get in this year without the SMP.

 

[junebuguf]

Thanks for the all the advice! I actually found a new SMP in one of my home state schools that is just starting this year--cheap tuition, sunshine state love. It sounds great, except UF says they're not sold on the new program. Hmmm. We'll see.

I absolutely, positively, NEED to get into med school by next Fall. Just a personal situation thing, I feel I'm getting older and dont want to be pushing 40 in residency because I'm pretty sure I'll be doing a 7-8 year surgical subspecialty. That said, if things are looking bad on the domestic front (with or without and SMP) I'll probably opt to head for the Caribbean--cant afford to lose another year. Sp in answer to your question, no I'm not a lay-it-all-out kind of person. Well, I am when I gamble, but I dont want to gamble with this, so....

Still dont know what I'm going to do, but lab is definitely out. If I have to spend another day listening to my post-doc bitch about the behavioral problems of her fcuking cat and how much money shes spending on doggy prozac and animal psychiatrists, I'll seriously go over to the lab chemicals and start chasing paraformaldehyde with bourbon.

Its now down to working or SMP.

 

[lightnk102]

Thanks for the all the advice! I actually found a new SMP in one of my home state schools that is just starting this year--cheap tuition, sunshine state love. It sounds great, except UF says they're not sold on the new program. Hmmm. We'll see.

I absolutely, positively, NEED to get into med school by next Fall. Just a personal situation thing, I feel I'm getting older and dont want to be pushing 40 in residency because I'm pretty sure I'll be doing a 7-8 year surgical subspecialty. That said, if things are looking bad on the domestic front (with or without and SMP) I'll probably opt to head for the Caribbean--cant afford to lose another year. Sp in answer to your question, no I'm not a lay-it-all-out kind of person. Well, I am when I gamble, but I dont want to gamble with this, so....

Still dont know what I'm going to do, but lab is definitely out. If I have to spend another day listening to my post-doc bitch about the behavioral problems of her fcuking cat and how much money shes spending on doggy prozac and animal psychiatrists, I'll seriously go over to the lab chemicals and start chasing paraformaldehyde with bourbon.

Its now down to working or SMP.

if you're absolutely positive you're starting med school this fall no matter what (including going to the caribbean), then i think the SMP would be a waste of money. your grades for first semester wouldn't be in until December or January anyways, which is halfway through the application cycle. in my opinion - doing the SMP is a catch-all in the offchance that you don't get in anywhere domestic this time around. If you're prepared to head to the caribbean anyways, then you don't really need the catch-all.

my only concern is the interview question "so, what are you doing right now?" you might want to to arrange something so it sounds good. i hear you on the lab thing. my co-worker actually has a cat meow as her ringer on her cell phone and it drives me insane. she too, has neurotic cats.

 

[Silent Cool]

Junebuguf,

You mentioned that you are getting older and are worried about delaying this process. How old are you?

 

[junebuguf]

I'm 25, but I turn 26 in a few weeks. I refer any further personal questions to my assistant, gujuDoc.

Well, the primary motivation for pursuing the smp option is to have something to talk about during interviews (as lightnk said) but also because I feel it will be my best option to impress an home state med school, which has always been my stated goal, though secretly I would love to be at NYU or any of the Chicago schools....but beggars cant be choosers so...


Gujudoc: I wrote to Dr. Larkin but not Dr. Williams. Dr. Larkin didnt have much to say and just referred me to Suzanne Jackson, so that went nowhere, but I may still email Dr. Williams. Thanks.


I think I will probably be a proxy for this new program unless something changes dramatically. I'm actually not looking forward to spending a year in Tampa, and I cant imagine being in Tampa for another 4 years if things actually work out and I get into USF....but those are the breaks, I guess.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

...I would certainly be hard-pressed to do well and fill out secondary essays. Will it be impossible to do both, as well as interview?

If you haven't already seen it, here is a thread in Pre-Allo with some of the essay questions for previous secondaries:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=201532

I know that some of the essays don't change much (if at all) from year to year. Some people are trying to get a head start by writing answers to the old essay questions. Of course, there is a chance that these questions may change completely.

I know many people with my numbers have applied before, failed, done an SMP and then been successful, but I havent heard from many who have simply done a year or two of post-bacc at the undergrad level and then applied. So my other question: is an SMP essential for me to have a good shot at matriculating somewhere next fall?

I could be wrong about this, but I seem to remember that liverotcod's postbac consisted of 50 undergrad credits, a la carte, spread over two or three years (not the VCU premed certificate program).

I absolutely, positively, NEED to get into med school by next Fall. Just a personal situation thing, I feel I'm getting older and dont want to be pushing 40 in residency because I'm pretty sure I'll be doing a 7-8 year surgical subspecialty. That said, if things are looking bad on the domestic front (with or without and SMP) I'll probably opt to head for the Caribbean--cant afford to lose another year.

This past application cycle general surgery was pretty competitive. I know one of the new mods for ValueMD just finished from a Caribbean school--SGU, I think. He scored somewhere around a 240 on his USMLE Step I (excellent score) and wasn't able to get one of his top three choices (got his 4th choice). But he did match into a categorical spot and my understanding is that doing so is much harder than just matching into a preliminary surgery spot.

The straight surgical subspecialty programs (e.g., ENT, ortho, urology, integrated plastics, neurosurgery) are very difficult (and sometimes damn near impossible) to get into coming straight out of the Caribbean schools, but there are a few uber-competitive matches coming from the Carib schools each year.

I remember you mentioned before that you weren't exactly blown away by Chicago Med's residency placement, but I do think that doing the SMP there and subsequently matriculating would be a much better choice than the Carib (even with the hefty price tag). The program has a very strong linkage to the med school--probably stronger than any other SMP, with the possible exception of EVMS. I know the SMP at RFU/CMS has accepted some low MCAT-competitive GPA students in the past, but I don't know about high MCAT-low GPA students.

It'll be interesting to see how the new USF program goes for this upcoming year. The program sounds solid...My understanding is the courses are very, very similar and patterned after the 1st year med curriculum at USF, but the program's courses are not the actual medical school courses. Perhaps that is why UF might not be completely sold on USF's program?

I'm willing to bet your strong postbac showing and forthcoming MCAT score will get you into a US med school somewhere. I don't know whether or not you'll need an SMP, but best of luck whatever you choose! =)

...Oh and I cannot stress how important it is that you talk to Mr. Larkin on your off time about your situation or Dr. Williams (one of two permanent members of the adcom at USF).

I had a phone convo with Mr. Larkin once. Nice guy.

 

[junebuguf]

I've seen the match list of USF, and while its nice, it is surprisingly devoid of upper tier programs. RFU sent several people to Mayo, Stanford and Hopkins last year and they matched 9 into Ortho. USF does not have residency programs in either of my two favored specialties--Plastics or Ortho, which is bad since those are tough matches and you want to think you have a good shot at your home school.

That said, I cant complain so I'll go anywhere. Thanks for the tip on NJMS, but I would not go there because its a lot more expensive than USF and UF, at least, favors BU and Georgetown for SMP programs. So with expenses being the same, I would opt for BU, which can be completed in a year.

I didnt know Larkin wasnt a PhD. Can I call his office directly? I dont want to bug him but it would be great to talk to him in person. Do you think he'd mind?

I have nothing against Tampa, per se. My parents own a strip mall and apt. complex there (its really ghetto) so my only real memory of the place is of a dirty, asphalt covered, sweltering city. Plus, having lived in DC and Atlanta, its hard to move to Tampa which has little of the charm of those cities.

 

[junebuguf]

They have an Ortho and Plastics department, but no residency program for those specialties.

 

[junebuguf]

This is the link for the RFU match list: http://66.99.255.20/communications/matchday05/CMS2005.pdf

Its actually rather impressive.

You can do the BU program in one year. There are a variety of ways to do so. I should know if I'm getting in by May, and if I do get in somewhere, I can opt to do a library thesis, which is useless, but can be done in a few months and will allow me to matriculate somwhere by Fall 2006. Also, if you take summer Anatomy, which is 6 credits, you shave a lot of credit hour requirements and can easily complete the rest of the requirements in 3 semesters.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Re: Getting in-state tuition at UMDNJ-NJMS:
You can get in-state tuition for the UMDNJ schools (NJMS, RWJ, and SOM) after one year in New Jersey. I haven't seen the specifics myself, but my understanding is that if you get a NJ driver's license and a 1-year lease, you can claim NJ residency.

Re: slowness of the server:
SDN is working on it. Also, donations help!!!

RFU Match Lists:
RFU has been posting its match lists for the past couple of years now. Junebug posted the link to the recent one. If you're interested in some of the previous years check out my residency match list thread in my signature below. And I agree with junebug that the match list is surprisingly impressive considering all the crap that people say about RFU/CMS. And for one of the specialties junebug mentioned having a particular interest in, ortho, the matches are at excellent programs.


Re: BU MA in Medical Sciences 1 vs. 2 year:
Programs like Georgetown, EVMS, RFU, etc. are better designed as one-year programs. But to reiterate what junebug said, BU *can* be completed in one year. There is a thesis requirement--either library- or laboratory-based. If I remember correctly, stinkycheese just completed the program in one year with a laboratory thesis. I think chitown82 finished it in one year with a lab thesis too, but I'm not sure as sure whether or not I'm remembering that correctly. Finishing the program in one year with a lab thesis is very rare.

Many who attempt to finish the program in one year opt to do the less intensive library-thesis. This can be finished over one summer (there are two summer "semesters" within one summer, if I remember correctly).

 

[mizzoudude]

I might be stupid in asking this question, but I think Junebugf will get in without a problem even if he doesn't do a SMP...

I have a 3.2 undergrad GPA with an MCAT of 27. I am attending the Tulane one year masters program and plan to take the MCAT next april and get a 30+. I am also banking on getting a 4.0 in the masters program. The dean that I emailed (Grisbaum) said that many students are in my position...with similar scores...and he says that many who do very well in the program (70% M.D. and a few D.O.) get into medical school.

So Junebugf...I think (I may be biased by your many intelligent posts) that you will get into medical school easily next fall. What part of the picture am I missing? Thanks for the info guys and lets keep it going. Good luck again Junebugf

 

[mizzoudude]

Sorry to post again...I know it is a personal reason for Junebugf that he wants to for sure get in next fall...but I know someone who is 29 and applying this year...

 

[junebuguf]

Thanks for the kind words Mizzoudude. I wouldnt be so wary but there have been people who have done better in post-bacc with more credits at more prestigious institutions and with higher MCAT scores who were unsuccessful, so I'm trying to be cautious.