To Wait or not to Wait?

[Sol Rosenberg]

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Hey all,

I'm glad I found a forum for non-trad. pre-med. students, and reading through these messages has already answered a lot of questions/doubts that I have. So, now, I just want to ask you all for some advice.

I am a 31 year-old Electrical Engineer that has been out of school for almost 10 years. I think that I will be a very competitive applicant. Although my Undergraduate GPA wasn't stellar (3.3,) my Graduate (M.S.) GPA was a 3.7, and I did some PhD work, where my GPA was a 3.8. I started taking all of my Medical School Prerequisites last Summer, and I have a 4.0 in all of the courses that I have taken. I am taking the MCAT in April, and am currently scoring about a 36 (12, 12, 12) on all of the full-length practice tests so far. Let's assume that I can improve on that (I just started reviewing about 3-4 weeks ago) and my MCAT ends up being 36-40. I have had a successful career, and I can probably get 5 good LORs from Professors, and a former boss.

So, now the bad part. I have been going to school, studying for the MCAT, and working full-time, all while being a husband, a dad, etc. I'm sure most of you guys know the drill. In addition, shortly after I started taking my prereqs, my father became really "sick" (he is mostly paralyzed,) and I have spent a considerable amount of time helping my mother in his care. While my father's condition wasn't what caused me to want to change careers to medicine, it has definitely strengthened my resolve. I haven't had the time to do any volunteer work or shadowing so far. I was planning on starting volunteer work and shadowing (in a hospital, and I have also talked with a local D.O.) this summer -- after this semester (probably my last semester of taking prereqs.) I am actually looking forward to the volunteer work, and agree that clinical exposure is critical in evaluating whether or not someone really wantes to become a doctor, but just haven't had the time with everything else going on.

I am considering applying this year (for matriculation in 2007,) but am wondering what you think about my chances if I don't start with clinical work until this summer. I will have some experience to talk about in interviews (if I get any,) but I won't have much clinical experience to write about in my personal statement, etc.

Certainly, if I waited a year, and got some volunteer work/clinical experience under my belt, I think I would have an excellent application next year, but I am wondering what you guys think my chances are if I were to go ahead and apply this year (i.e. I don't want to wait an extra year if I don't have to.) One other thing that I am considering is that I may go for an MD/PhD if I take the extra year and get involved with some research. However, my original plan was only for an MD (I AM also considering DO schools -- My wife actually thinks I should just go for the DO anyway, but I am interested in Radiology or Neurology, and I need to do some research about the chances for DOs to get residencies in those areas.)

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I would appreciate any opinions about whether or not I should wait a year to apply.

Thanks in advance,

Jota

 

[doclm]

Hey all,

I'm glad I found a forum for non-trad. pre-med. students, and reading through these messages has already answered a lot of questions/doubts that I have. So, now, I just want to ask you all for some advice.

I am a 31 year-old Electrical Engineer that has been out of school for almost 10 years. I think that I will be a very competitive applicant. Although my Undergraduate GPA wasn't stellar (3.3,) my Graduate (M.S.) GPA was a 3.7, and I did some PhD work, where my GPA was a 3.8. I started taking all of my Medical School Prerequisites last Summer, and I have a 4.0 in all of the courses that I have taken. I am taking the MCAT in April, and am currently scoring about a 36 (12, 12, 12) on all of the full-length practice tests so far. Let's assume that I can improve on that (I just started reviewing about 3-4 weeks ago) and my MCAT ends up being 36-40. I have had a successful career, and I can probably get 5 good LORs from Professors, and a former boss.

So, now the bad part. I have been going to school, studying for the MCAT, and working full-time, all while being a husband, a dad, etc. I'm sure most of you guys know the drill. In addition, shortly after I started taking my prereqs, my father became really "sick" (he is mostly paralyzed,) and I have spent a considerable amount of time helping my mother in his care. While my father's condition wasn't what caused me to want to change careers to medicine, it has definitely strengthened my resolve. I haven't had the time to do any volunteer work or shadowing so far. I was planning on starting volunteer work and shadowing (in a hospital, and I have also talked with a local D.O.) this summer -- after this semester (probably my last semester of taking prereqs.) I am actually looking forward to the volunteer work, and agree that clinical exposure is critical in evaluating whether or not someone really wantes to become a doctor, but just haven't had the time with everything else going on.

I am considering applying this year (for matriculation in 2007,) but am wondering what you think about my chances if I don't start with clinical work until this summer. I will have some experience to talk about in interviews (if I get any,) but I won't have much clinical experience to write about in my personal statement, etc.

Certainly, if I waited a year, and got some volunteer work/clinical experience under my belt, I think I would have an excellent application next year, but I am wondering what you guys think my chances are if I were to go ahead and apply this year (i.e. I don't want to wait an extra year if I don't have to.) One other thing that I am considering is that I may go for an MD/PhD if I take the extra year and get involved with some research. However, my original plan was only for an MD (I AM also considering DO schools -- My wife actually thinks I should just go for the DO anyway, but I am interested in Radiology or Neurology, and I need to do some research about the chances for DOs to get residencies in those areas.)

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I would appreciate any opinions about whether or not I should wait a year to apply.

Thanks in advance,

Jota

Your stats look really good, I think you should apply this year to both MD and DO schools. With MCAT's like that you should have no problem getting into a MD school. Giving the choice, if your not completely pro-DO, go get an MD because it is a lot cheaper (especially for your own state school, which is also your best chance of getting into a MD school) and it is a lot easier getting a desirable residency. People tend to change what they want after attending medical school for something they find is their niche. As for clinical experiences, you don't need that much of them, as long as you can prove to the admission committee that you have a desire to become a Medical Doctor. Just find a doctor, shadow that person, and get them to write you a LOR. I would definately apply this summer in July, applying early increases your chances of getting into a Medical School. With you being a non-trad student, the admission team will look favorably on your commitment to become a doctor for the right reason. Since you have been out in the real world working, the admission teams usually will believe your commitment to medicine.

Congrats on your MCAT scores, you are doing very well.

Good luck on applying this year. 👍

 

[Law2Doc]

Hey all,

I'm glad I found a forum for non-trad. pre-med. students, and reading through these messages has already answered a lot of questions/doubts that I have. So, now, I just want to ask you all for some advice.

I am a 31 year-old Electrical Engineer that has been out of school for almost 10 years. I think that I will be a very competitive applicant. Although my Undergraduate GPA wasn't stellar (3.3,) my Graduate (M.S.) GPA was a 3.7, and I did some PhD work, where my GPA was a 3.8. I started taking all of my Medical School Prerequisites last Summer, and I have a 4.0 in all of the courses that I have taken. I am taking the MCAT in April, and am currently scoring about a 36 (12, 12, 12) on all of the full-length practice tests so far. Let's assume that I can improve on that (I just started reviewing about 3-4 weeks ago) and my MCAT ends up being 36-40. I have had a successful career, and I can probably get 5 good LORs from Professors, and a former boss.

So, now the bad part. I have been going to school, studying for the MCAT, and working full-time, all while being a husband, a dad, etc. I'm sure most of you guys know the drill. In addition, shortly after I started taking my prereqs, my father became really "sick" (he is mostly paralyzed,) and I have spent a considerable amount of time helping my mother in his care. While my father's condition wasn't what caused me to want to change careers to medicine, it has definitely strengthened my resolve. I haven't had the time to do any volunteer work or shadowing so far. I was planning on starting volunteer work and shadowing (in a hospital, and I have also talked with a local D.O.) this summer -- after this semester (probably my last semester of taking prereqs.) I am actually looking forward to the volunteer work, and agree that clinical exposure is critical in evaluating whether or not someone really wantes to become a doctor, but just haven't had the time with everything else going on.

I am considering applying this year (for matriculation in 2007,) but am wondering what you think about my chances if I don't start with clinical work until this summer. I will have some experience to talk about in interviews (if I get any,) but I won't have much clinical experience to write about in my personal statement, etc.

Certainly, if I waited a year, and got some volunteer work/clinical experience under my belt, I think I would have an excellent application next year, but I am wondering what you guys think my chances are if I were to go ahead and apply this year (i.e. I don't want to wait an extra year if I don't have to.) One other thing that I am considering is that I may go for an MD/PhD if I take the extra year and get involved with some research. However, my original plan was only for an MD (I AM also considering DO schools -- My wife actually thinks I should just go for the DO anyway, but I am interested in Radiology or Neurology, and I need to do some research about the chances for DOs to get residencies in those areas.)

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I would appreciate any opinions about whether or not I should wait a year to apply.

Thanks in advance,

Jota

Couple of things (and the below related to pre-allo; I have no idea if the DO route poses the same issues).
First, while practice MCATs are helpful in letting you know you are prepared for the test, I would not assume an equal or greater MCAT to your best practice test, particularly an early one. About half the people who take it see a drop in scores, largely dependant on whether the particular form they get has greater or lesser emphasis on their better subjects, or whether they experience test anxiety or burnout due to the grueling full day stress conditions. Look at three full length test scores taken within the month immediately preceding the test, and most (but not all) people tend to be either 3-4 points above or BELOW the average of these three.
Second, some exposure to clinical medicine (other than as a family member of a patient) is going to be required for any medical school. Medicine is a tough road and schools want to know that you are thought out and know exactly what you are getting yourself into (as well as objectively having done something demonstrating interest in the field). This is expecially important for an "older" nontrad, who will generally be expected to be much more thought out. You can expect to be asked, why medicine, why the career change, why now, why you think the physician career will be more satisfying to you, what kind of family support system you have in place, etc. I think if you cannot point to a number of experiences working/volunteering in clinical settings, that would look bad, but more importantly you really ought to know for yourself (and not just for dressing up the application) that this career is what you can see yourself doing for the rest of your life.
Finally, you might hit some issues with the incomplete PhD (unless perhaps you go the MD-PhD route). Med schools will understandably have a concern that if you did not finish one graduate program, that is a bad indicator as to how you will fare in theirs.
Good luck!

 

[remo]

I wouldn't wait if I were you. You can always re-apply if it doesn't work out. After the MCAT you should have a lot more free time to get clinical experience (I know I will). You will have at least 2-3 months until you submit your applications over the summer. This is enough time to get the exposure they are looking for. Make sure you keep doing it after your apps are submitted so you can address the issue in secondaries, interviews, etc... You won't have the "volunteer in a soup kitchen every Sat night for 3 years" experience but your numbers and other experience should make up for it.

 

[bodilyMD]

I would definitely recommend applying this year. Your GPA is going to be a plus, especially being an engineer. If your practice MCATs are within 10% of the actual test, I think you have an excellent chance to get interviews. Additionally, you seem to have a good story. If you can speak from the heart and convey your story during interviews and why medicine is for you, I think you have a great shot at getting in, even with minimal clinical exposure. For me, I am 31 years ago, 8 years as a mechanical engineer, ~3.5 undergrad GPA, 4.0 prereqs at a CC, 33 MCAT, but I volunteered consistantly for over 1 year before my first interview. For me, my volunteer experience gave me a clinical experience to share in my PS and interviews. Volunteering was the "confirmation" of this pursuit that I needed personally and also to show the admissions committee that I knew what I wanted and did not have any doubts.

To increase your chances, I would look at volunteering a few hours each week in an ER. You will have time after the MCAT and through the summer to gain some volunteer experience. It would give you one more facet in your story and would be one more reason for them to say, YES. Worst case, start volunteering over the summer, keep it up during the year, and you will even have a better chance the following year.

University of Colorado SOM Class of 2010

 

[BubbleHead]

Because a high school-to-college-to-med school kid has no life experience and can't say why medicine is for him or her. You can answer the question, "Why is medicine right for you..." based on your expeience with your family and medicine. Talk about what you saw, how it made you feel, how it confirmed you thoughts.

You can also talk about transferable skills from what you're good at now and how it will help you bring leadership, maturity, stability to your class and residency program. You are the bedrock of any program, nothing rattles you, you've lived life outside of school and know why, when, how to handle situations. You have something to offer a group of 22 year old students.

Call someone now, a doc, and set something up for a couple hours on a couple of day to shadow. Explain it as you've shadowed doctor so and so over the past few months (don't mention the number to times or number of hours) speaking of the quality of the experience and not the quantity of time you spent. Set something up to serve a couple of meals at a homeless shelter and again discuss the quality of the experience, how good it made you feel and why, but don't comment on the quantity of time you spend. NO ONE CHECKS ON THESE NUIMBERS OF HOURS YOU CLAIM. So, if you're going to work 50 hours, but only work 15 by the time you fill out the application I would put 50 hours and complete them before you interview (that is fair). People only care that you know why you like to help people and that you are sure you really enjoy helping people.

 

[Law2Doc]

Because a high school-to-college-to-med school kid has no life experience and can't say why medicine is for him or her. You can answer the question, "Why is medicine right for you..." based on your expeience with your family and medicine. Talk about what you saw, how it made you feel, how it confirmed you thoughts.

While I don't disagree with your post, per se, a lot of med schools aren't merely going to want to know why you think medicine is right for you, but rather, will probe the depth of your knowledge as to what you are really getting yourself into. You need clinical experience for most schools, and a family brush with healthcare won't count (although it might make for a good, albeit not unique, PS). One interviewer indicated to me that she only considered clinical experience to be good if there was "a substantial likelihood of getting thrown up on". So a brief shadowing stint might not suffice everywhere. In general, you need to see patients, doctors and the interaction between them, to get at least a vague sense of what medicine entails. And you want to do this not only for the app, but also so you know for you. It shouldn't be a chore or a hardship if you are actually interested in going into this field.
Good luck.

 

[BubbleHead]

While I don't disagree with your post, per se, a lot of med schools aren't merely going to want to know why you think medicine is right for you, but rather, will probe the depth of your knowledge as to what you are really getting yourself into. You need clinical experience for most schools, and a family brush with healthcare won't count (although it might make for a good, albeit not unique, PS). One interviewer indicated to me that she only considered clinical experience to be good if there was "a substantial likelihood of getting thrown up on". So a brief shadowing stint might not suffice everywhere. In general, you need to see patients, doctors and the interaction between them, to get at least a vague sense of what medicine entails. And you want to do this not only for the app, but also so you know for you. It shouldn't be a chore or a hardship if you are actually interested in going into this field.
Good luck.

The average 22 yr old needs the "high risk of vomit exposure" I agree. You don't need to spend countless hours in blood and guts. It doesn't work like that. It is, as I said, the quality of the experience and not the quantity that makes a difference. As an older student with life experience you should be able to explain how you know medicine is right for you. If you can't, then quantity of exposure and projectile vomit will not matter.

I know that some schools typically want to see exposure, but that is not a hard and fast rule (based on all the schools that accepted me. Not all med students know what they're getting themselves into at graduation.

Answer these questions and you'll be fine:

Why medicine?
Why you over the other 100 applicants with a 4.0 GPA, 34 MCAT, and an unwaivering resolve to practice medicine that all want your seat?
Why do you like people?
What do you get out of helping people now in your life?

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

While I don't disagree with your post, per se, a lot of med schools aren't merely going to want to know why you think medicine is right for you, but rather, will probe the depth of your knowledge as to what you are really getting yourself into. You need clinical experience for most schools, and a family brush with healthcare won't count (although it might make for a good, albeit not unique, PS). One interviewer indicated to me that she only considered clinical experience to be good if there was "a substantial likelihood of getting thrown up on". So a brief shadowing stint might not suffice everywhere. In general, you need to see patients, doctors and the interaction between them, to get at least a vague sense of what medicine entails. And you want to do this not only for the app, but also so you know for you. It shouldn't be a chore or a hardship if you are actually interested in going into this field.
Good luck.

Law2Doc,

I appreciate your opinion, even though it seems to be a little different from "everyone" else's. If you re-read my post, though, (or even just the title,) I'm not disputing or questioning whether clinical experience is valuable in and of itself, or insofar as it is a somewhat de-facto requirement for admission to most medical schools. My question was more of whether the amount that I would have prior to my interview (starting after the April MCAT) would be "enough." Assume that I can give good answers to the questions that you posed (I can -- I just don't want to go into answering them all here.) I am trying to decide whether or not to wait another year and obtain that much more clinical experience.

Certainly the extra experience would help my chances, but by how much?

While agree that ideally one shouldn't look at this as "How much do I have to do to get into medical school," there is that practical aspect to everything. I look at the value of clinical experience to be to test whether I have the stomach, patience, whatever to practice medicine. Working/volunteering in a clinical setting is the closest thing that there is without actually practicing medicine (i.e. the closest thing that I can do now.) In my opinion, once I have tested this, that is enough. However, there is the practical aspect that in order to get into medical school, there seems to be some "magic number" (500 hours?) of clinical experience that is needed. I think that I can test my resolve to practice medicine with less clinical experience than that, given my life experiences of working with and managing people, and helping in the care of sick family members (esp. my father,) but I don't know how convincing that would be to an admissions committee, and don't want to waste my time going through the whole admissions process if the number of hours of clinical experience that I will be able to realistically accumulate will be seen as "not enough" by an admissions committee.

So, I wasn't trying to argue that clinical experience was not important.

To everyone else: Thanks a lot! I think I will go ahead and apply this year, but that part of my application will still worry me a bit. I'll try to address it (positively) in my personal statement, and have good, honest answers (which I do anyway) to the types of questions relating to my motivation and desire to practice medicine that will likely be asked by ADCOMs.

Thanks again!

Jota

 

[Law2Doc]

Not all med students know what they're getting themselves into at graduation.

My experience has been that med schools expect more from nontrads in terms of this, particularly those making big career changes. They want to know that this is not a whim, that you did a lot of research and saw a lot before taking this huge step. A different kind of maturity is simply expected of an older (over 30) nontrad than of a 20 year old college student. (My view and experience). So, from what I have seen of the process, while I believe a college student can go to an interview, say he/she always wanted to be a doctor and that is was inspired/reinforced by a family medical experience and a handful of weekends shadowing a doctor or volunteering at an ED, the questions won't stop there for a nontrad. So from what I have seen it isn't just that the young applicant needs more exposure to blood/guts/vomit, it is that the older applicant needs to be able to point to more exposure as basis for their supposedly better considered decision.
At any rate, I have no opinion as to whether the OP should wait, but the OP should be aware that perhaps some places will focus in on what clinical experience the OP had before pulling the trigger on the application (not interview) as a basis for actually deciding to apply. Post app, pre interview experience will certainly be helpful and expected, but an astute adcom will see that this did not play a role in the actual decision to apply as you (OP) hadn't done it yet. Thus you (OP) want to apply broadly and cast a wide net, to try and hit some of the more receptive schools (that BubbleHead apparently hit).