To yaah and others..job hunt dilemma

[Patho2009]

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I was offered a position and signed the contract. Very shortly after signing the contract, I received a call from another place which I have been interested in (location-wise). They invited me for an interview and they indicated that they would be very interested to offer me the position if everything would go smoothly.

I regreted that I have committed myself to the first offer. I didn't hear form the people of the second offer and therefore i thought they were not interested but actually they were!!!

I have decided to go ahead and do a site visit for the second place. Now my dilemma is....

How can I cancel my committment to the first offer? I understand it is ethically (and may be legally) not approproiate but it is my career and future. What should I do?

Please advise.

 

[pathstudent]

I was offered a position and signed the contract. Very shortly after signing the contract, I received a call from another place which I have been interested in (location-wise). They invited me for an interview and they indicated that they would be very interested to offer me the position if everything would go smoothly.

I regreted that I have committed myself to the first offer. I didn't hear form the people of the second offer and therefore i thought they were not interested but actually they were!!!

I have decided to go ahead and do a site visit for the second place. Now my dilemma is....

How can I cancel my committment to the first offer? I understand it is ethically (and may be legally) not approproiate but it is my career and future. What should I do?

Please advise.

Take the second job more preferable job if they give you a contract. The other group can't do anything to you except thing you are a c-sucker.

 

[2121115]

Wow, this is quite a change from the usual job market threads here. Refreshing actually.

 

[zao275]

After you sign a job contract, how long are you obligated to that job? People leave jobs they have been working at for a while to go elsewhere, right? How long do you have to wait to do that? I agree they might not like it, and for fellowship contracts it is totally unethical. But how does it work for job contracts?

 

[green mantis]

The 1st thing would probably be to read your contract. There may be some stipulations within it regarding your particular situation.

Personally, I don't think it would be a big deal. The group is probably better off hiring somebody that really wants to work there. Since you probably just accepted their offer, it's possible they could just offer the position to the next person in line.

I guess you probably could've handled the situation a little better. Maybe you should've called the 2nd group after you received an offer from the 1st one. I've come to realize that you have to put effort into following up w/ potential employers.


----- Antony

 

[yaah]

If you signed a contract you could potentially be sued for breaching it. I would talk about it with someone with experience in it, like a lawyer.

 

[Whetherby]

If you signed a contract you could potentially be sued for breaching it. I would talk about it with someone with experience in it, like a lawyer.

Although I do think it's somewhat unethical to break the contract, the reality is that American courts strongly favor the individual over the employer, so it is fairly commonplace to break this kind of contract. Even if you would be sued (which is unlikely), you would probably win. On the other hand, if your employer broke such a contract, you could probably sue them successfully.

I know of at least one fellow who was in your exact situation and successfully dropped the initially contract to sign with a preferable group, without repercussions.

Nevertheless, I agree with Yaah that you should consult with a lawyer. The legal specifics probably vary regionally.

 

[2121115]

Just don't break the first contract until you have a solid offer (or perhaps even a signed contract sitting in front of you) from the second group. You don't want to have a "worst case scenario" happen.

 

[KluverB]

Although I do think it's somewhat unethical to break the contract, the reality is that American courts strongly favor the individual over the employer, so it is fairly commonplace to break this kind of contract. Even if you would be sued (which is unlikely), you would probably win. On the other hand, if your employer broke such a contract, you could probably sue them successfully...

This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of sand, but if you have signed your contract, you are legally bound by it, and "American courts" definitely do not favor any side that's in gross breech of contract. I agree that the group will probably be better off not hiring you if you don't actually want to be there. Still, if they feel somehow slighted, they may be a-holes about it and pursue a lawsuit, and they are well within their rights. They can be even bigger a-holes and enforce any and all of the non-compete (might not be an issue since it sounds like you're looking to go to a completely different area) and "breech of contract" clauses that you may have signed on for. I have an acquaintance (not in pathology) who is going through this. Not sure where it stands at the moment, other than it's been ongoing for over 2 years, many briefs have been filed, neither side is backing down, and some lawyers are making a bunch of money, regardless.

Just don't break the first contract until you have a solid offer (or perhaps even a signed contract sitting in front of you) from the second group. You don't want to have a "worst case scenario" happen.

If you pulled that one, I would definitely sue you for breech. But that's just me.

Anecdotally, this came up in a conversation recently with a couple of my attendings. You have to realize that pathology is still a pretty small world and that people may call for references, etc. This is what happened in this case. Someone had signed a contract for a position at one hospital. That person apparently went and interviewed at at least one other place, and they were ready to make him an offer there, except that one of the people on the hiring committee made a phone call to one of his references, who blurted out... "I thought he took a job at (the other place)". Sure enough, the other place was also known to this person, they called there and a slightly less (?) "worst case scenario" ensued. The second place quickly backed out. The first group is stuck with him, ie. they don't want to be in breech of contract, but how do you think they will treat him knowing what they know? They'll probably put him under the microscope and look for any excuse to can him once he's on board.

So, is it better to be up front? Or try to sneak around the back? I don't know. Either way, be prepared for the consequences.

 

[yaah]

Like I said, I would talk to a lawyer. The group you signed the contract with may very well release you without penalty - after all, no one wants to hire someone who they don't think wants to work with them. And no one wants to hire someone who is going to bail on them. And it probably won't be worth fighting it. So it might cost you nothing. But as said above, pathology is a small world and this will definitely give you a reputation. If the two jobs are in different areas that might not matter so much, particularly if you never want to leave or never want to be on national committees, etc.

 

[pathstudent]

Don't listen to these guys. You aren't going to get sued because you don't have any money. They will find someone else to take the job. Just talk to them or make up a story like your wife/husband's mom is sick and you need to go to the town where the other group is.

And those non-compete clauses have never been worth the paper they were written. THey are totally unenforceable. All the private practice heme-onc groups sold their practices a number of years ago to nationals like US oncology, then they left and started their own practices in the same neighborhood. None of them were shut down by the no-compete clauses.

THere is no way they are going to take the time and expense to sue you. They will just fill your spot with someone else.

 

[SLUsagar]

Don't listen to these guys. You aren't going to get sued because you don't have any money. They will find someone else to take the job. Just talk to them or make up a story like your wife/husband's mom is sick and you need to go to the town where the other group is.

And those non-compete clauses have never been worth the paper they were written. THey are totally unenforceable. All the private practice heme-onc groups sold their practices a number of years ago to nationals like US oncology, then they left and started their own practices in the same neighborhood. None of them were shut down by the no-compete clauses.

THere is no way they are going to take the time and expense to sue you. They will just fill your spot with someone else.

wow, if ladoc was still posting (i know he's still lurking though...) I'm certain he'd concur that this may one of the WORST pieces of advice any human has offered another.

Most groups spend a decent amount of time and effort finding that certain person whom they hope will either fill in a needed gap (by someone retiring, or for someone that has left) or to fill the role of an expanding volume and needed additional pathologist. Either way, unless this group essentially planned on hiring you as a temp, they likely chose someone whom they'd assume would end up being a competent and collegial partner.

Now while I understand your situation and agree that you should do what is best for you and your family, please take the advice of myself and (most) others on this post (many of which are PRACTICING pathologists out in the real world) in understanding that legal ramifications are a definite possibility and that you should take the necessary precautions in discussing your situation with a lawyer ASAP.

And secondly, please do NOT lie and make up stories about someone being sick/etc. Not playing the "karma" card or anything, but realize that you could very easily be asked for proof of all this. Plus, it's completely unprofessional. As elucidated by others, our path community is quite small and word spreads quickly. Yes this other job you are seeking might end up being your final one 'til you retire, but remember that it might not be, and so don't do anything to even possibly ruin your reputation.

 

[path19]

although i agree it doesn't hurt to talk to a lawyer about the situation, i actually agree with pathstudent about the ramifications of breaking a contract like this. IF the group was vindictive enough that they wanted to go to the trouble and expense of suing you, they would have to prove not only that the contract was broken but that they suffered some sort of damages as a result. this would be extremely difficult to prove, especially since it is doubtful this position would go unfilled for a long period of time. and like others have said, courts are typically hesitant to enforce clauses like this and effectively take away an individual's right to practice their chosen profession. the ethics of this is another story however, but we all know many things are legal but not ethical and vice versa. i definitely agree that it's a bad idea to make up some weak story. just be honest and if they're reasonable people they'll realize that they're better off without someone who would rather be working elsewhere.

 

[oldfatman]

Read your contract. Talk to a lawyer. Ignore all "advice" on this forum. Don't f**k around with something like this.

You might have a clause in there that says you have to give so many days notice.

My contract is seven pages long, although I would have signed it anyways if it required to me to howl at the moon every night.

 

[Parts Unknown]

IF the group was vindictive enough that they wanted to go to the trouble and expense of suing you, they would have to prove not only that the contract was broken but that they suffered some sort of damages as a result. this would be extremely difficult to prove, especially since it is doubtful this position would go unfilled for a long period of time.

Perhaps, but the group might have lawyers on retainer who would love to justify their fees by make your life a living Hell.

Think of it in terms of Dick Cheney's One Percent Doctrine. Even if the likelihood of retribution is small, the consequences if it does happen are pretty horrendous.

Sometimes it's not about getting the best outcome. Sometimes it's about avoiding the worst possible outcome.

 

[dwil75]

Is it completely unreasonable for the OP to simply discuss the issue VERY politely and candidly with the company in question? If he/she has legitimate reasons (family ties, spouse career, kids' schooling, health needs, etc) for wanting to remain in one area, given the number of people looking for a job in path, it seems the company would rather find someone who will be happy about being in their location, and might be willing to work something out with the OP? Maybe I'm grossly naive? I know if I was hiring, I'd rather have someone be happy about working, and upfront with me about their situation/needs...

 

[SLUsagar]

Is it completely unreasonable for the OP to simply discuss the issue VERY politely and candidly with the company in question? If he/she has legitimate reasons (family ties, spouse career, kids' schooling, health needs, etc) for wanting to remain in one area, given the number of people looking for a job in path, it seems the company would rather find someone who will be happy about being in their location, and might be willing to work something out with the OP? Maybe I'm grossly naive? I know if I was hiring, I'd rather have someone be happy about working, and upfront with me about their situation/needs...

another good point about just being open and direct. I was just recommending to thoroughly examine the contract regardless, and MOST importantly to not make up some lame-ass story as suggested by a prior ridiculous post.

 

[lipomas]

Whatever you do there are two things you should not do:

Do NOT:
1) Try to get out of the first job before you have a guarantee at job #2. A lot of times people think certain jobs are obviously going to be offered to them, when it turns out they weren't going to get the job anyway. Then you are left with zero jobs.

2) Lie to job #2 if they ask you if you have another job lined up.

The advice about seeking a lawyer is good. Do that. It is very possible that if job #1 finds out that you have another job that you prefer, they will just let you out of the contract. Especially if it's in a different part of the country and they have no connections. If it's the same part of the country, in addition to getting a lawyer I would also attempt to find some impartial advice from someone in the area who is not involved with either group, because you could end up blackballed from both if you play it poorly.

 

[pathstudent]

Just talk to the first job. They won't be too upset. They have probably been in this game for awhile.