Too Many ODs?

[prettygreeneyes]

I have seen KHE refered to as the negative optometrist on this site on several occasions, I think it would be more appropriate to call him the realistic optometrist on this site. A little East Coast bluntness never hurt anyone.

Alright... just to be clear... I personally wasn't calling KHE an incredibly negative optometrist. I did think he was, when I joined this site a year ago. All I saw was an optometrist who left the profession posting about the senior docs who tried to take advantage of him, the medical plans that wouldn't let him on, and the prediction that optometry is a step away from becoming pharmacy. At that point, as a pre-optometry student, anybody saying anything other than positive things about optometry was, by default, a negative optometrist. Then... reality set in, and I realized that KHE is giving some really good advice. It had never occurred to me that I wouldn't be able to just get on any medical plan I wanted to, because the doctor I worked for had no problem. Other students coming on to this site for the first time, who have only heard from their schools how great, wonderful, and easy the profession is will face a reality check. It is a good thing.

That being said... this West Coast girl is still getting used to the East Coast bluntness!

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[Phaedrus112]

Hey I stumbled across this board a few weeks back and found this thread to be some what stimulating.... well thought out arguements (for the most part. ok i might have to take that back), playful banter, and a little bit of tension. Some more backstabbing and this could be even better than TV. Just joking I don't got time for TV. I'm a 2nd year student at that So cal opto school where posner wanted to take a dump at. Studying is all we do.

Anyways I have some questions:

1. I'm not from so cal and so i don't plan on practicing here after i graduate/finish my residency. It's not like i don't like the area or even the fact that supposively the market here is saturated with ODs. I just find the constant sun to be a lil bit unnerving. I'm from seattle. Shoot me. Anyways I was wondering how to exactly find whether a state will let new ODs be accepted under their medical insurance coverage. I tried to google it but I didn't know exactly what i was looking for. (like say for WA).

2. If private practice optometry is going the way of the stegosaurus b/c of the way the optical/retail side of this mode of practice is put at such a premium to generate revenue then what is there to do? I don't like doomsday statements w/o some sliver of hope. I'm that kind of guy. I do agree that a lot of patients do prefer to go to costo/walmart to get their prescriptions filled. I don't see any major solutions to solve that. Maybe some bandaids here and there but nothing major. But i think that people would RATHER go to a private practice OD to get their exams done. Especially if they are educated on that matter and especially if they know and think that they are getting superior patient care. (like postner did) Education especially in the area that they are getting just as good of care from an OD then an MD if the OD is comptent enough. (that could be a big if and thus could be a dagger in my arguement) Also education in the fact that even if a patient waits for a month and a half to go see a MD there is a good posibility they will be seeing an OD for most or a good portion of that exam. Have your patients come to you for a better care at cheaper price. Isn't this why people get their optical hardware commericially anyways? (granted i did forget about the insurance coverage. damn insurance) But hopefully you can charge the quality of service you are providing. Granted, you still might not generate the income that selling 10 pairs of guci glasses would but like you all said. It's better to be happy or at least mentally sane. The latter is what i'm shooting for. Also i know. I know. I should take in consideration of the insurance coverage side of things.

3. How important do you think a residency is for a private practice OD and which ones would be helpful? I know disease is popular but it doesn't sound all that practical for a private practice OD. It seems like i'll be more incline to just be an MD sidekick if i went into that direction. What about low vision, CL, or sports vision? (i know there is probably a more appropriate thread for this but i'm using the fact that i'm lazy and also "new" to the board.. so thus i can be ignorant) I was thinking about opening a practice cold turkey with a partner and we would each specialize in something. (don't worry i got the partner covered) I was looking for suggestions about which combos would work better. P.s. i know that opening up a practice cold turkey is tough but like someone here said... finding an old OD that is willing to sell you their practice can be equally fustrating as well. But i like the idea of starting something from scratch and have something you can see grow before your eyes. I just need to know what pit falls to avoid. Blah Blah Blah Besides i have to be my own boss.

I know i might sound naive or ignorant on "real world" issues and this is because I am and this is why i posted. To learn. I have always been successful in my endeavors and I can't see myself failing in something important such as this... my career. But to be successful I need knowledge.

Thanks.

 

[Opii]

Why don't you go to www.orms.org , look up under state which residencies are available in Seattle Washington or the area. Since you are interested in residencies this may be a good year to find out how optometry works in Washington, since that's where you want to practice.

About residencies, just make sure you fall in a good one. There are some bad residencies out there. Some that won't even give you the certificate after you slaved for them a whole year. so be careful. I don't know how to find out which ones are the good ones and which ones are the bad ones other than a couple I have heard of through the grapevine. Ask current or past residents a lot of questions. Good luck.

 

[blazenmadison]

3. How important do you think a residency is for a private practice OD and which ones would be helpful? I know disease is popular but it doesn't sound all that practical for a private practice OD. It seems like i'll be more incline to just be an MD sidekick if i went into that direction. What about low vision, CL, or sports vision? (i know there is probably a more appropriate thread for this but i'm using the fact that i'm lazy and also "new" to the board.. so thus i can be ignorant) I was thinking about opening a practice cold turkey with a partner and we would each specialize in something. (don't worry i got the partner covered) I was looking for suggestions about which combos would work better. P.s. i know that opening up a practice cold turkey is tough but like someone here said... finding an old OD that is willing to sell you their practice can be equally fustrating as well. But i like the idea of starting something from scratch and have something you can see grow before your eyes. I just need to know what pit falls to avoid. Blah Blah Blah Besides i have to be my own boss.

I know i might sound naive or ignorant on "real world" issues and this is because I am and this is why i posted. To learn. I have always been successful in my endeavors and I can't see myself failing in someth

How does one open cold turkey?
I read somewhere people usually open their own shop and work as much as they can there while being a fill-in doctor at other local clinics. Otherwise you're going to starve yourself. Also, you might end up being the tech, optometrist, janitor, and receptionist the first year. Are banks willing to lend you money with all the additional student debt (assuming you're not a member of the Hilton family)? Will you have to advertise $99 for 2 pair of glasses/contacts with FREE exam?

 

[UABopt]

Having seen all of this woe is me talk about the state of optometry on the forums lately I decided to do just a little research to see if the facts matched up with the perception. So I went to the Census website to look up a few numbers.

In 1988 there were a total of 37,000 optometrists in the USA. http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2003/spring/art01.pdf
In 1998 there were still a total of 37,000 optometrists in the USA
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2000/spring/art01.pdf
In 2000 the number was 38,000 ODs
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2003/spring/art01.pdf

And in 2004 you guessed it still around the same between 34,000 and 39,000 ODs depending on whose numbers you look at.

Notice that in each case the government estimates that there will be an increase in the number of ODs but in each case the numbers tend to remain stable. The number of dentists on the other hand has actually decreased slightly, more than likely due to a reduction in the number of schools.

While the population of optometrists has hardly changed the number of people in the US has actually increased from 244.5 million in 1988 to 295 million today. Not to mention that there is a much more substantial growth in people over 65 years of age.

So there is hardly a huge boom of optometrists entering the market each year that is perceived. All of this does not even begin to take into account that the vast majority of optometrists in 1988 were male. Currently more than 63 percent of optometry students are female. This, I feel is a vital point, seeing that many of these women will likely one day want to have families and will tend to take time off of work, or work part time to make this a reality. While this is certainly not true in all cases, a large number of the female students have chosen optometry for that very reason, there is the possibility of part time employment if that is what they choose to pursue.

In the end though I agree that we should limit the number of students graduating each year, but I think more so than the number of ODs going into practice each year, we should really be looking at student debt. That number has been growing completely out of control and something has to be done about it because it is the greatest threat to the way we all want to practice. Student debt limits options and squashes possibilities.

In conclusion (ignoring that some parts of the country may be completely oversaturated) if there are too many ODs today then there were FAR too many in 1988.

 

[orangezero]

One of the problems with the thought that we need more ODs is that they seem to think that if we just have a public service announcement or two, all these people who haven't been to an eye doctor in 10 years will suddenly return to an optometrist and then keep returning every 2 years like a good little patient.

I don't think you can just look at the total number of people and the total number of optometrists. Like you point out, there are a lot of ODs that may be working part time. But not all is because of choice necessarily. I'm sure there are a lot of ODs starting out at a new (private) practice that can only realistically be at the office one or two days a week instead of starting in full-time. I've seen it happen.

Also, ODs at least seem to work a lot longer than other professions (before retiring) because of a variety of factors. Could be that less manual dexterity is needed, could be less stressful enviornment, could be they didn't save enough and thought their practice was their nest egg, could be that enjoy what they do... But older ODs working longer into their advancing age would tend to increase the number of total ODs.


I think the easiest way to see the oversupply is to note the price of an exam and also the amount of empty slots in an average OD office. Why would an optometrist (the professional that he is) allow himself to do $19 eye exams if he could get away with charging $49 or $99 or whatever. There is a real threat that other, newer ODs will come in and replace him/her and charge less... why?? because they can't find a job anywhere else.

At the local walmart, there is a guy charging $59 for exams with contact fittings, including torics, BF, whatever. why? its either because there is too much competition for patients (and contact lens revenue) or because the doctor is an idiot.

Honestly, would you rather see 20 patients a day at $50 a patient, or 50 patients a day for $20 a patient? I certainly know which your optical handlers would rather you pick.

I would agree that debt is an issue, but I'm not certain its the sole factor driving new ODs to commercial settings. Debt is an issue for all health fields. We also have to look at projected incomes, etc. The more ODs, the less income. Its easier to control those issues than it is to make more patients out of thin air.

 

[posner]

Debt is certainly an issue, but it doesnt mean you cant get into a succesful private practice. I didnt have much debt out of optometry school(about $55000) but I never even considered debt to be a limiting factor for me. Even if I would have been $150K in the whole it wouldnt have mattered in my situation. I know what many of you are thinking...who will loan me money and how will I be able to repay it. It goes further than this. It has been my experience that most established successful practices became so because of the hard work by one or more of the founders. These founders often take tremendous pride in their efforts and want to be sure that their legacy lasts. While this can often lead them to conclude the value of their practice exceeds what market forces may indicate is a fair price, it also ties them to the practice for the long haul(barring unforseen changes in health, etc.) Use this to your advantage.

Convince them that for tax reasons, simply having you go out and get a loan is one of the worst possible scenarios for the both of you. It can be done much better with fewer tax ramifications. I know this to be true, because I did it this way. I also know that there are many of these opportunities available out there. When I was looking around I would only entertain this type of scenario, and I had three options when I finally decided to pull the trigger on this practice. In most cases, you will have to work as an associate which is good so that trust can be established between the parties. This is the only snag. Most older guys think that younger ODs want too much out of school. Be reasonable. You should be able to arrange for $300-$400/day easily. WHile this isnt much money, it is a livable wage while you build your end of the practice(unless you have loads of consumer debt/unsecured debt in which case it is your own fault). I could go into all the details of my buy in if there is interest, but rest assured it is possible.

Starting cold is another animal alltogether; this is particularly tough nut to crack. That is why I suggest seeking out a successful practice. There are many of them across the united states. This is the method in which we will take on our next associate. It can be done.

Posner

 

[KHE]

Having seen all of this woe is me talk about the state of optometry on the forums lately I decided to do just a little research to see if the facts matched up with the perception. So I went to the Census website to look up a few numbers.

In 1988 there were a total of 37,000 optometrists in the USA. http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2003/spring/art01.pdf
In 1998 there were still a total of 37,000 optometrists in the USA
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2000/spring/art01.pdf
In 2000 the number was 38,000 ODs
http://www.bls.gov/opub/ooq/2003/spring/art01.pdf

And in 2004 you guessed it still around the same between 34,000 and 39,000 ODs depending on whose numbers you look at.

Notice that in each case the government estimates that there will be an increase in the number of ODs but in each case the numbers tend to remain stable. The number of dentists on the other hand has actually decreased slightly, more than likely due to a reduction in the number of schools.

In conclusion (ignoring that some parts of the country may be completely oversaturated) if there are too many ODs today then there were FAR too many in 1988.

I'm going to have to look at that report in more detail to understand it but here is a link from the department of health and human services that shows that the number of ODs and the the ratio of ODs to population has been INCREASING substantially over the years. Look at Table 501 and 502.

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforc...s, Pharmacists, Veterinarians & Chiropractors

Also, most optometric literature related to the number of ODs including the AOAs own manpower study show that the number of ODs has NOT held constant for the last 20 years but has in fact increased.

 

[UABopt]

I'm going to have to look at that report in more detail to understand it but here is a link from the department of health and human services that shows that the number of ODs and the the ratio of ODs to population has been INCREASING substantially over the years. Look at Table 501 and 502.

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforc...s, Pharmacists, Veterinarians & Chiropractors

Also, most optometric literature related to the number of ODs including the AOAs own manpower study show that the number of ODs has NOT held constant for the last 20 years but has in fact increased.

That link was very interesting. The numbers though, do not seem to be consistent with the numbers given in the census links I posted.

Regardless, if you refer to table 101, you will notice that the number of ODs per population has not increased out of step with the rest of the increase per popluation of other healthcare practitioners. According to your cited study, there are only 30 percent more ODs per 100,000 people since 1970, compare that to a 79.8 percent increase in MDs a 119% increase in RNs per person since 1970. In fact even dentists have grown more than ODs 30.5 percent more dentists per person today than in 1970. Those facts taken in addition to the increase in the number of female ODs... and female health care providers across the board, go to show that the situation is not nearly as dire as some people on this board would lead you to believe. Certainly we would be much better off if there were all of the sudden half the number of ODs were gone, and maybe in some parts of the country conditions are more bleak than they are in others, but in general the numbers are in our favor.

Not only that, the number of ODs graduating per year has stayed very stable in the past 25 years refer to table 105 and you might think the number is increasing, but add last year and the year before as data points and you will notice that it is not increasing that rapidly. In 1980-81 1249 ODs graduated in 1991-1992 1355 ODs graduated, in 2000 the number was 1384. In 2005 1251 ODs graduated, about the same as the number that graduated in 1980. Once again the numbers are not quite as out of control as some would have you believe.

 

[drgregory]

That link was very interesting. The numbers though, do not seem to be consistent with the numbers given in the census links I posted.

Regardless, if you refer to table 101, you will notice that the number of ODs per population has not increased out of step with the rest of the increase per popluation of other healthcare practitioners. According to your cited study, there are only 30 percent more ODs per 100,000 people since 1970, compare that to a 79.8 percent increase in MDs a 119% increase in RNs per person since 1970. In fact even dentists have grown more than ODs 30.5 percent more dentists per person today than in 1970. Those facts taken in addition to the increase in the number of female ODs... and female health care providers across the board, go to show that the situation is not nearly as dire as some people on this board would lead you to believe. Certainly we would be much better off if there were all of the sudden half the number of ODs were gone, and maybe in some parts of the country conditions are more bleak than they are in others, but in general the numbers are in our favor.

Not only that, the number of ODs graduating per year has stayed very stable in the past 25 years refer to table 105 and you might think the number is increasing, but add last year and the year before as data points and you will notice that it is not increasing that rapidly. In 1980-81 1249 ODs graduated in 1991-1992 1355 ODs graduated, in 2000 the number was 1384. In 2005 1251 ODs graduated, about the same as the number that graduated in 1980. Once again the numbers are not quite as out of control as some would have you believe.

and this is where my theory of the emerging problem of a doc in the box churning out 50 refractions/day and calling them exams contributes to oversupply.

 

[UABopt]

and this is where my theory of the emerging problem of a doc in the box churning out 50 refractions/day and calling them exams contributes to oversupply.

I have to agree with you 100% there. That is why I was trying to say that student debt load is much more of a threat to the profession than sheer oversupply of ODs, at least at this point in time. The average debt of a medical student increased from 68,000 in 1994 to 110,000 in 2003 that is just outrageous. Optometry no doubt has followed the same trend. At UAB tuition has increased more than 3 fold since 1994. Tuition has been rising at about 10 percent per year in the last several years, far out pacing inflation that has been closer to about 3 percent per year. This forces ODs into a tight spot after graduation and limits our opportunities. Older ODs just don't understand this problem, when they went to school tuition was more reasonable. Then these ODs try to hire associates for only 50K a year, thinking that it is fair wage, and much more than they made starting out, and are surprised to see the new ODs flock to the walmarts of the world instead where they can make closer to 100K. Making only 50K you'd be left with next to nothing left over after taxes an a $1400 monthly student loan payment.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Older ODs just don't understand this problem, when they went to school tuition was more reasonable. Then these ODs try to hire associates for only 50K a year, thinking that it is fair wage, and much more than they made starting out, and are surprised to see the new ODs flock to the walmarts of the world instead where they can make closer to 100K. Making only 50K you'd be left with next to nothing left over after taxes an a $1400 monthly student loan payment.

Young OD's don't understand that their salary comes out of the pocket of the older OD until the young OD gets busy enough to cover his/her salary. I agree that there are some serious issues with the amount of tuition, but youg OD's need to understand that they actually cost the practice money in the beginning of their employment. There is a downside to going into private practice, and it's that you will make less in the beginning, but I guarantee that the sacrifice early in your career will be far outweighed by the benefits later.

 

[posner]

Young OD's don't understand that their salary comes out of the pocket of the older OD until the young OD gets busy enough to cover his/her salary. I agree that there are some serious issues with the amount of tuition, but youg OD's need to understand that they actually cost the practice money in the beginning of their employment. There is a downside to going into private practice, and it's that you will make less in the beginning, but I guarantee that the sacrifice early in your career will be far outweighed by the benefits later.

Another salient point Ben. This is why I mentioned earlier that this type of arrangement is a leap of faith for both parties(owner and associate). The owner is eating your salary initially while you build your end of the practice so they often expect a "rain maker" when they bring in an associate.

This brings up another interesting point and something I ran into when I was initially looking for a practice. Either the owner has to have such a significant patient load that he or she can keep you busy with overflow while you grow, or he or she MUST be willing to make room for you by backing off a little on their schedule to make room. I have seen it happen more than once when a new OD doesnt have the room to grow his or her practice which leads eventually to a failure of a potential partnership. These things need to be spelled out in the beginning.

I would also like to echo Ben's sentiments on private practice; in the end it can be so much more rewarding on a financial and a personal level. In my mind the goal should be to limit in every way possible student debt; Specifically unsecured debt(i.e. credit cards, lofty car payments, etc.) The better job one does with this, the more likely he or she will be able to sieze opportunities as they become available. I know of more than one classmate of mine that had in excess of $50,000 in credit card debt. They had no choice but to spin dials for a box store to pay the bills right out of school. These also tend to be the OD's that are least happy with their profession of choice...because they get trapped.

Posner

 

[UABopt]

Young OD's don't understand that their salary comes out of the pocket of the older OD until the young OD gets busy enough to cover his/her salary. I agree that there are some serious issues with the amount of tuition, but youg OD's need to understand that they actually cost the practice money in the beginning of their employment. There is a downside to going into private practice, and it's that you will make less in the beginning, but I guarantee that the sacrifice early in your career will be far outweighed by the benefits later.

I agree with you as well, but these increases in tuition cannot continue at their current rate without dire consequences. The cost of optometry school is not only a result of student loan debt, but also any loss of income during the 4 years of OD school. That is to say had I started working right out undergrad it would not have been unreasonable for me to expect to be paid 35,000 a year but instead in optometry school I am spending closer to 35,000 a year and not making anything. The net result is a deficit of not 140,000 but rather $280,000. It will take YEARS to catch up and make up the difference. Certainly 50 years down the road I hope it will have been worth it, but it is hard right now to accept that. In the end though I love optometry and am happy I will actually enjoy what I do for a living.

 

[lanavii]

I am not an optometry student or enrolled in a pre-optometry program, but I am thinking about going into this direction. I am still working on finishing my BA in Art. I know, you may wonder why I am making such a drastic move, but there is obviously no job security in Art and never was. However, it is my passion and I don't regret going that way. I have been thinking about Optometry for a while and I am still in doubt. I am not a science person but I am trying to get used to the medical field since it is a promising career.
I still don't know what I am going to do with my life. I am 24 years old and I should've had my Master's by now but things don’t always go as you wish sometimes. Anyway, the reason I wanted to post here is because I am puzzled after reading some of the posts in here saying that after school an optometrist gets paid $300-400/day!!!! I hope that was a mistake. Not that I am the "material girl" in here, but that's how much my sister is getting paid as a dental hygienist right after school. And that's after 4 years of college, with a B.S. If I will be spending another 6 years of school, which means I’ll finish by the time I am 31, and get paid that little then I think I am going to stick with Art. I am also a Graphic Designer/Photographer so I will definitely make more than that just with a BA in Art. I am not trying to say that money is everything - trust me! I am the least materialistic person...I am the type that'll probably give exams for free if patients cannot afford it. I just want to be real with what I am getting into. I cannot go for 6-7 more years of hard work and not be compensated at least a decent amount. That's the reason I don't understand why dentists make much more and if I am not wrong they pretty much spend the same amount of time in school. I would appreciate if someone would make these things clear to me, since I am new to this forum and a possible candidate to the optometry school.

 

[still_confused]

possible candidate to the optometry school.

you are not a candidate

if you arent satisfied with the current state of optometry then you shouldnt get into it, sure it can get better but you are setting yourself up for a big dissapointment

if you want to make tons of money be a dentist or something else, optometrist will not make you fabulously wealthy (unless you have awesome gifts)

you have to love the profession and want to care for other people's eyes. Making money while important needs to come secondary if you wish to make this a rewarding career.

and if 80-100k is not consider a "decent amount" you need to move to a less affluent area and see people survive on 20k and live happily

 

[posner]

I am not an optometry student or enrolled in a pre-optometry program, but I am thinking about going into this direction. I am still working on finishing my BA in Art. I know, you may wonder why I am making such a drastic move, but there is obviously no job security in Art and never was. However, it is my passion and I don't regret going that way. I have been thinking about Optometry for a while and I am still in doubt. I am not a science person but I am trying to get used to the medical field since it is a promising career.
I still don't know what I am going to do with my life. I am 24 years old and I should've had my Master's by now but things don’t always go as you wish sometimes. Anyway, the reason I wanted to post here is because I am puzzled after reading some of the posts in here saying that after school an optometrist gets paid $300-400/day!!!! I hope that was a mistake. Not that I am the "material girl" in here, but that's how much my sister is getting paid as a dental hygienist right after school. And that's after 4 years of college, with a B.S. If I will be spending another 6 years of school, which means I’ll finish by the time I am 31, and get paid that little then I think I am going to stick with Art. I am also a Graphic Designer/Photographer so I will definitely make more than that just with a BA in Art. I am not trying to say that money is everything - trust me! I am the least materialistic person...I am the type that'll probably give exams for free if patients cannot afford it. I just want to be real with what I am getting into. I cannot go for 6-7 more years of hard work and not be compensated at least a decent amount. That's the reason I don't understand why dentists make much more and if I am not wrong they pretty much spend the same amount of time in school. I would appreciate if someone would make these things clear to me, since I am new to this forum and a possible candidate to the optometry school.

Definitely not a candidate for Optometry School. Maybe you should go scrape plaque for a while and see how fun that is? Talk about burn out. Everything in life comes at a price. I have said it many times before, successful people are generally successful at whatever they choose. Likewise, unsuccessful people usually struggle regardless of their profession. I refused not to make great money in optometry. However, If I didnt like what I was doing, the big savings account, homes, cars, etc would mean nothing. If art is your deal, then stick with it and see where it takes you.

I dont care what profession you chose, unless you are super lucky, youre not going to walk right into a giant salary with no strings attached. I was just talking to a patient today who is an orthodontist. He has concerns about being able to retire because noone can afford to buy his practice. He said he recently interviewed a new grad who requested $1000/day salary to start. After laughing, he told the student that HE doesnt make $1000/day himself! Get real Lana.

I cannot let this go without restating what I have always said: It is not how much money you make, but how much money you keep. I know many people that may "make" more money than myself, but far fewer that keep more. If you think $150K is a decent living, try paying all the taxes on it and see what you have left...good luck.

Posner

 

[lanavii]

you are not a candidate

if you arent satisfied with the current state of optometry then you shouldnt get into it, sure it can get better but you are setting yourself up for a big dissapointment

if you want to make tons of money be a dentist or something else, optometrist will not make you fabulously wealthy (unless you have awesome gifts)

you have to love the profession and want to care for other people's eyes. Making money while important needs to come secondary if you wish to make this a rewarding career.

and if 80-100k is not consider a "decent amount" you need to move to a less affluent area and see people survive on 20k and live happily

I never said I want to get fabulously wealthy nor did I say that people cannot survive on 20k, because after all that's how much I am making right now and I never said I am not happy. You obviously misinterpreted my question and succinctly missed my point. And no, I am not a candidate. But I am definitely a “possible candidate”.

 

[lanavii]

I don't understand why all the replies evolve around the idea that "I" want to get wealthy by getting into Optometry. All I wanted to know is, since optometry students spend so many years in school, why they are not financially rewarded like other professionals such as dentists, dental hygienists etc? Why am I getting answers with a indication of not going to Optometry? I never said that I will apply tomorrow nor did I say that I love this profession already. I think I am pretty real since I am asking this question before doing anything in Science and not when I am half the way through school or AFTER I finish! Is it possible that I am getting the answers from those that now regret their choices in life? Hey...just an assumption!
I am aware that my sister works hard at her job…but at least she wasn’t in school for 7-8 years but for 4 and she works 2-3 day a week. Of course everything in life comes at a price. I don’t take anything for granted, for I have lived in communism for many years. Take that for a scrape.
It comes down to choices that we need to make in life. Yes…I could stick with art, but I have this vision that I need to help people. I am leaving to Africa next year with my husband and help the bushman tribes. Maybe I’ll teach them how to paint or take photographs. I am sure that will come in handy one day…

 

[prettygreeneyes]

I never said I want to get fabulously wealthy nor did I say that people cannot survive on 20k, because after all that's how much I am making right now and I never said I am not happy. You obviously misinterpreted my question and succinctly missed my point. And no, I am not a candidate. But I am definitely a "possible candidate".

Hello,

It is good that you are taking the time to investigate and ask questions. But, your possible interest in optometry is surprsing, based on reasons I find in your post:

1) You aren't a science person... you just want to get into the medical field because it seems "promising".

2) You keep stating that you aren't materialistic, but money comes up in your post... a lot. Yes... I can completely understand that money DOES matter, but as you pointed out, even a dental hygenist or a BA in Art makes more than we do. (On a side note... BAs in art seriously make $300-$400 a day? Seriously? I pulled up stats from the Department of Labor. In your experience, are these inaccurate? http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos090.htm )

3) You didn't really mention any driving motivation to care for people, help people, care for someone's vision, etc. I'm not saying that you don't want to help people or anything... you just didn't mention it.

4) You seem to like art. Is there a reason that you don't want to do it for the rest of your life? Are graphic design positions hard to come by?

If you truly have the desire to care for people's eye or make people see better or whatever, then the amount of schooling is just something you deal with. Are there plenty of ways to make a lot more money with a lot less schooling? Yes... of course. But, the people who post here (hopefully) are optometry students or optometrists because they have a desire to interact with patients in a healthcare setting, doing their best to improve their patient's vision.

I hope that you stick around and interact with everyone some more, so that you can get a better understanding of the profession. Hopefully, we didn't scare you off... yet.

PLEASE NOTE: I WROTE THIS BEFORE READING YOUR LAST RESPONSE. I'M NOT DENSE... I SWEAR!!!

 

[posner]

Just another side note(after I finished snickering about the number of BA arts folks who make $100k+), my wife's two best friends are dental hygenists. One went to USC and the other to another private program in CA. Each of them owe $45-$60k in student loans. They both work in LA and earn $250-$300 per day and travel between 2 or more practices each week. I am not saying it is an inferior or unrewarding job. My point was that even dental hygenist training can be expensive and time consuming. Incidentally, I believe that $250-350/day is typically the ceiling for a hygenist; I do not know if a hygenist can own or operate his or her own practice independent of a dentist. If this were possible, I could imagine greater income potential.

For the record, I do not regret my career path. I could not imagine doing it any other way. If the day comes when I change my mind, I will move on.

Posner

 

[ZSclark]

Just a thought here, if one is making a comparison of dental hygiene and optometry it might also be important to take into account that many dental hygienists complain of work-related pain (leaning over all day long and doing repetitive motion). It seems to me that optometry has a definite foothold here, at least in this respect, as I cannot imagine any part of the daily optometry routine leading to chronic physical pain, but please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[ZSclark]

Also, has anyone ever had the thought that it might feel a little strange having someone staring up at you with their mouths gaping open, unable to speak, for 15 to 20 minutes at a time. Maybe this wouldn't dissuade most folks but I've always found dental hygienist time a little awkard, i.e. you talk for a few minutes, then its back in the mouth for 5 min., then try to pick up conversation again, then back in the mouth, over and over, I don't know maybe its just me

 

[Opii]

It seems to me that optometry has a definite foothold here, at least in this respect, as I cannot imagine any part of the daily optometry routine leading to chronic physical pain, but please correct me if I am wrong.

BIO can be a pain in the bback if done 8 times a day.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Incidentally, I believe that $250-350/day is typically the ceiling for a hygenist; I do not know if a hygenist can own or operate his or her own practice independent of a dentist. If this were possible, I could imagine greater income potential.

"Median hourly earnings of dental hygienists were $28.05 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $22.72 and $33.82 an hour. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $18.05, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $40.70 an hour.

Earnings vary by geographic location, employment setting, and years of experience. Dental hygienists may be paid on an hourly, daily, salary, or commission basis."

This is from the same site that prettygreeneyes found the art info: http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos090.htm

It appears that only the highest 10% come close to reaching the $350 per day while the lowest 10% earn less than $145 per day. The median salary is about $224 per day. When you look at those numbers and include the fact that most hygienists work 4 or less days per week, you can see that their true earning potential is no where near what optometry is. What this really has to do with Lanavii's post, I have no idea. I just wanted to make sure we all had the same stats.

 

[drgregory]

the art student makes a great non-biased point. how can someone with so much education have such a tough time making the money that their level of education affords them?
answer: optometry has done it to themselves - be it prostituting their services to corporate entities, or portraying themselves as spectacle peddlers. it all comes down to an oversupply of ODs giving away their services at a fraction of their value, and putting retail ahead of patient care. if you cannot understand that, you should seriously question if you have the mental capacity to succeed in optometry school, much less scavenge for a living upon graduation from a school.

 

[KHE]

Young OD's don't understand that their salary comes out of the pocket of the older OD until the young OD gets busy enough to cover his/her salary. I agree that there are some serious issues with the amount of tuition, but youg OD's need to understand that they actually cost the practice money in the beginning of their employment. There is a downside to going into private practice, and it's that you will make less in the beginning, but I guarantee that the sacrifice early in your career will be far outweighed by the benefits later.

Senior ODs need to view bringing on a young doctor as an investment but no associate should ever cost a practice money. If you pay an associate doctor $70000 per year, then that doctor should easily be able to gross $210000 which would actually generate a nice profit for the owner doctor since the overhead of having an associate is not nearly the same as it is for having just the senior. The only additional overhead would be COGS, the associate salary, and MAYBE another staff member initially.

eg: An office with a 1/3 COGS.

New associate grosses 210,000
COGS = 70000
Salary = 70000
additional staff member (maybe) = 30000

adds up to $40000 per year pure profit to the owner doctor.

If a new associate can not gross enough to cover their salary in an established office, then I submit that that office was not anywhere close enough to needing another OD.

 

[KHE]

Another salient point Ben. This is why I mentioned earlier that this type of arrangement is a leap of faith for both parties(owner and associate). The owner is eating your salary initially while you build your end of the practice so they often expect a "rain maker" when they bring in an associate.

This brings up another interesting point and something I ran into when I was initially looking for a practice. Either the owner has to have such a significant patient load that he or she can keep you busy with overflow while you grow, or he or she MUST be willing to make room for you by backing off a little on their schedule to make room. I have seen it happen more than once when a new OD doesnt have the room to grow his or her practice which leads eventually to a failure of a potential partnership. These things need to be spelled out in the beginning.

Posner

It is my opinion that any associate that comes on board should easily be able to generate enough revenue to cover their salary and their COGS. If they can not, then either the associate is a complete idiot or, much more likely, the practice was no where close to needing another doctor.

That's the most common problem that I have seen. Most private offices would do much better for themselves simply hiring a well trained tech, delegating more, and having the owner doctor see more patients more efficiently rather than hiring another OD.

As Posner has correctly pointed out, very very VERY few practices are in a situation where they just need to "add capacity" to do more of the same thing that they are already doing.

The new doctor should be adding something to the practice, not doing more of the same. I tried to do this when I worked in private offices. I recall working for a doctor who wanted to add "medical optometry" to the practice because they were older and didn't want to do it, but they did not want to invest in any medical technology like a fundus camera or a visual field machine.

Another office I worked in for a very short time was considering adding VT because they were located close to an elementary school. I had done a fair amount of VT in my residency so I agreed, but the same thing happened. They refused to make any investment in either the necessary equipment or any sort of advertising/promotional material to get the word out.

That's why in retrospect, I felt I should have opened cold rather than wasting so much time dealing with tired old doctors and their tired old practices. Most of them simply paid lip service to wanting to expand the practice.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Senior ODs need to view bringing on a young doctor as an investment but no associate should ever cost a practice money. If you pay an associate doctor $70000 per year, then that doctor should easily be able to gross $210000 which would actually generate a nice profit for the owner doctor since the overhead of having an associate is not nearly the same as it is for having just the senior. The only additional overhead would be COGS, the associate salary, and MAYBE another staff member initially.

eg: An office with a 1/3 COGS.

New associate grosses 210,000
COGS = 70000
Salary = 70000
additional staff member (maybe) = 30000

adds up to $40000 per year pure profit to the owner doctor.

If a new associate can not gross enough to cover their salary in an established office, then I submit that that office was not anywhere close enough to needing another OD.

In theory, Ken you are absolutely right, but their are several issues with bringing on a new associate that you have not addressed.

1) Unless the older OD is booked several months out, there are not enough patients for both doctors to be busy enough in the beginning. According to your estimates, 80-90% of OD's can get a patient in for a routine exam within 2 days. This would imply that only a small percentage of OD's can ever bring on a new associate.

2) The new doctor cannot bill insurances until he gets credentialed. One way to get around this is to bill under the older doc's license, but even doing that it can take a couple of months for the first payments to come in. That lag time in collections is not the concern of the new associate who expects to be paid immediately.

3) Newer docs are not as quick as older docs. By seeing less patients per hour, the overhead percentages of the office become less favorable when the new OD is in the office. The 30% rule may not apply to the new doctor's clinic.

4) Newer docs are not as comfortable with the selling aspect of our profession, nor are they as interested in it unless they are on a bonus. This results in even less productivity per hour when coupled with #3. The art of recommending spectacles and especially add-ons takes time to learn.

These are just the ones I came up with off the top of my head. Being in private practice for the last 5 years, and bringing someone on a year ago, I can tell you that in the beginning a new associate is not profitable. I do agree that once they get busy enough to start generating real dollars, there is profit to be made. The problem is the initial outlay when that doctor first comes on. Many OD's may not be able to give up $25,000 over the first 3 months that the new OD isn't really bringing in much money even if at the end of the 12 months, the doctor can profit $40,000.

 

[lanavii]

You guys are set on these statistics. Every time somebody throws in some numbers you never hesitate to come up with the links showing that you did your research. Good job, but it is not relevant to my story. The fact that my sister gets paid $400 a day, after taxes (and that's working 8 hours/10 patients) doesn't match what those stats from 2004 say. In the area that we live that's how much a dental hygienist gets paid. And she chose to work only 2 days a week because she wants to spend time with her family and still bring some extra cash in the house. She could work 5 days a week easily, but her choice was not to. And the fact that she has her former classmates get paid $500-700/day in areas like Palm Springs,CA or Las Vegas...it's another story. This whole thing that we got into right now should’ve been the least discussed in here but obviously everybody read my post between the lines. It seems to me that it is a catastrophe that I compared dental hygienists with optometrists. My question was out of mere awe, because I think the situation is unfair. Because my first post was about money the immediate conclusion is that I am trying to get "fabulously wealthy" when I am far away from thinking that way. The fact that I didn't mention anything about caring people until my third post...conclusion was made there too. Have you ever heard of "change of careers"? I think we al did because it has become a "trend" in America. I know people that have BS in Radiology, Master in Violin and they became dentists later on; or BS in Music and now they are in Law School. So maybe I want to change my career too...maybe it will be Optometry maybe not. Maybe I’ll never return from Africa. Who knows the future?
My whole idea was not to praise dental hygienists and put down Optometrist. It was more a reflection to the fact that I heard that Optometrists get paid as much as them after school...and lots of school. I started thinking about Optometry since I was little and my mom took me to see the eye doctor. I thought that was the coolest job ever. I still think it is and I never miss going to my yearly eye check up. The only thing I hate is that my prescription goes up every time I go. Sooner or later I’m going to get that Lasik Surgery.
I know how much art pays. Good thing that I know more than just paint. In photography, you can’t get paid up to $3000-5000 a wedding. My husband and I work as a team so there is money in Art if you know what you are doing. The price that you pay however is the instability and insecurity. We might not have any weddings in the next 4-6 months etc. Or if we want to move, let's say Montana, I am sure we'll probably not be so lucky. That's why both, my husband and I are trying to broaden our horizon towards the medical field. But like I’ve said before, we don't know what the future brings. My husband for example has a BS in Theology, but he is very talented in Video Production, Photography, Graphic Design. He is however very interested in the medical field as well. And before anybody jumps to conclusions, it is not because of money but because he is actually fascinated with the human body.
I am not here to offend; and if I did please accept my apologies, for I am not a selfish, money oriented, but a caring, loving person and I just hope that this time everybody understood what I was trying to find out in my first post.


And by the way, I think that what dentists, dental hygienists do is pretty nasty so I know that’s something I don’t want to do.

 

[Ben Chudner]

It is my opinion that any associate that comes on board should easily be able to generate enough revenue to cover their salary and their COGS. If they can not, then either the associate is a complete idiot or, much more likely, the practice was no where close to needing another doctor.

The issue is the initial outlay of salary dollars before money comes in. A new doctor could bill $20K a month right from the start (although very doubtful), but will not collect the majority of that for up to three months. A new grad that wants to be paid $80K per year will be paid roughly $20K in that time not including benefits. The money will come in and the salary should be covered, but it takes several months of profitability to make up for each month where the new associate was paid before the practice collects on what was billed. So while an older doc can expect to be profitable in the long run, there are plenty of them out there that cannot afford the short term and are therefore unwilling to pay that much at first. Remember, most docs are taking every dime out of their practices. When they have to cover the salary of a new doc while they wait for those insurance checks, the money comes out of what they were taking home.

 

[lanavii]

Since I’ve been posting here from the beginning, I would like to get your opinions in something that I have been thinking about lately. I am 3 quarters from graduating (more precisely in June 2007) with a BA in Graphic Design. Do you think I will be wasting my time if am adding a minor in Biology now? After consulting my school catalog the minor in Biology is another 56 units, which I can probably finish in a year and a half. I just think that maybe it will help me someday. Sorry this thread is off topic but I wanted your opinion since you probably got to know me a little bit in here.
I thank everybody in advance for guiding me.

 

[posner]

The issue is the initial outlay of salary dollars before money comes in. A new doctor could bill $20K a month right from the start (although very doubtful), but will not collect the majority of that for up to three months. A new grad that wants to be paid $80K per year will be paid roughly $20K in that time not including benefits. The money will come in and the salary should be covered, but it takes several months of profitability to make up for each month where the new associate was paid before the practice collects on what was billed. So while an older doc can expect to be profitable in the long run, there are plenty of them out there that cannot afford the short term and are therefore unwilling to pay that much at first. Remember, most docs are taking every dime out of their practices. When they have to cover the salary of a new doc while they wait for those insurance checks, the money comes out of what they were taking home.

This is exactly why I mentioned earlier in this thread, that there must be an abundance of patients or a partner that is willing to make room for an associate. I might also add, there needs to be physical space to accommodate another practitioner as well. We have 5 lanes in one office and we can easily handle our patient load with double doctors. In fact, it might be conceiveable to triple up in a limited capacity in some cases. In the other office we only have 2 lanes. With our patient load, it is challenging to double doctor in the smaller office. PAtient flow is difficult to handle in this office and it feels disorganized.

My partner and i have two associates that work for us. They generate about $40000-45000 each in profits for us at the end of the year. They are both on production based compensation schedules. THe more productive they are, the better off everyone is. I look back on my humble beginnings in our office as an associate. There were days when I barely saw enough patients to break even for the partners and others when I did well. All in all, I more than paid for myself, but I was not exactly a profit center. It never bothered the senior partners in the least because I was always working hard to grow my practice. It was made easy by the fact that both partners were in fabulous financial shape to begin with. So the point is, look for a healthy practice if you want to buy in, dont hold out for the pipe dream if all the numbers dont add up. Like my father always said, "hope is not a plan."

POsner

 

[PBEA]

You guys are set on these statistics. Every time somebody throws in some numbers you never hesitate to come up with the links showing that you did your research. Good job, but it is not relevant to my story. The fact that my sister gets paid $400 a day, after taxes (and that's working 8 hours/10 patients) doesn't match what those stats from 2004 say. In the area that we live that's how much a dental hygienist gets paid. And she chose to work only 2 days a week because she wants to spend time with her family and still bring some extra cash in the house. She could work 5 days a week easily, but her choice was not to. And the fact that she has her former classmates get paid $500-700/day in areas like Palm Springs,CA or Las Vegas...it's another story. This whole thing that we got into right now should’ve been the least discussed in here but obviously everybody read my post between the lines. It seems to me that it is a catastrophe that I compared dental hygienists with optometrists. My question was out of mere awe, because I think the situation is unfair. Because my first post was about money the immediate conclusion is that I am trying to get "fabulously wealthy" when I am far away from thinking that way. The fact that I didn't mention anything about caring people until my third post...conclusion was made there too. Have you ever heard of "change of careers"? I think we al did because it has become a "trend" in America. I know people that have BS in Radiology, Master in Violin and they became dentists later on; or BS in Music and now they are in Law School. So maybe I want to change my career too...maybe it will be Optometry maybe not. Maybe I’ll never return from Africa. Who knows the future?
My whole idea was not to praise dental hygienists and put down Optometrist. It was more a reflection to the fact that I heard that Optometrists get paid as much as them after school...and lots of school. I started thinking about Optometry since I was little and my mom took me to see the eye doctor. I thought that was the coolest job ever. I still think it is and I never miss going to my yearly eye check up. The only thing I hate is that my prescription goes up every time I go. Sooner or later I’m going to get that Lasik Surgery.
I know how much art pays. Good thing that I know more than just paint. In photography, you can’t get paid up to $3000-5000 a wedding. My husband and I work as a team so there is money in Art if you know what you are doing. The price that you pay however is the instability and insecurity. We might not have any weddings in the next 4-6 months etc. Or if we want to move, let's say Montana, I am sure we'll probably not be so lucky. That's why both, my husband and I are trying to broaden our horizon towards the medical field. But like I’ve said before, we don't know what the future brings. My husband for example has a BS in Theology, but he is very talented in Video Production, Photography, Graphic Design. He is however very interested in the medical field as well. And before anybody jumps to conclusions, it is not because of money but because he is actually fascinated with the human body.
I am not here to offend; and if I did please accept my apologies, for I am not a selfish, money oriented, but a caring, loving person and I just hope that this time everybody understood what I was trying to find out in my first post.


And by the way, I think that what dentists, dental hygienists do is pretty nasty so I know that’s something I don’t want to do.

As an OD working 4.5 days/wk, I make 200-250k/yr, depending on the year. It's true there are OD's who do do fill in work, commercial work, or are newer graduates, who make $400/day (I once did also ). I have a friend in a construction company pulling more then that, and he has no degree, other then a trade license. He makes WAYYYY more then your dental hygienist friend (and so do I). Maybe you can combine art with construction, you know become an architect. Oh wait, that requires alot of schooling, and MANY architects dont make alot of money (but many make millions). Maybe you should become a dental hygienist and go work with your friend? It is health related after all. Better yet go to vet school (if you could get in) and possibly earn less then all of the above!! For that matter in healthcare medicine is generally top-dog, so why not become an MD? I work with three MD's, and two nurses, once a month, and I make more then most of them. If you need to know the earning potential of OD's vs dental hygienists then you are limiting yourself (or are limited).

 

[KHE]

In theory, Ken you are absolutely right, but their are several issues with bringing on a new associate that you have not addressed.

1) Unless the older OD is booked several months out, there are not enough patients for both doctors to be busy enough in the beginning. According to your estimates, 80-90% of OD's can get a patient in for a routine exam within 2 days. This would imply that only a small percentage of OD's can ever bring on a new associate.

2) The new doctor cannot bill insurances until he gets credentialed. One way to get around this is to bill under the older doc's license, but even doing that it can take a couple of months for the first payments to come in. That lag time in collections is not the concern of the new associate who expects to be paid immediately.

3) Newer docs are not as quick as older docs. By seeing less patients per hour, the overhead percentages of the office become less favorable when the new OD is in the office. The 30% rule may not apply to the new doctor's clinic.

4) Newer docs are not as comfortable with the selling aspect of our profession, nor are they as interested in it unless they are on a bonus. This results in even less productivity per hour when coupled with #3. The art of recommending spectacles and especially add-ons takes time to learn.

These are just the ones I came up with off the top of my head. Being in private practice for the last 5 years, and bringing someone on a year ago, I can tell you that in the beginning a new associate is not profitable. I do agree that once they get busy enough to start generating real dollars, there is profit to be made. The problem is the initial outlay when that doctor first comes on. Many OD's may not be able to give up $25,000 over the first 3 months that the new OD isn't really bringing in much money even if at the end of the 12 months, the doctor can profit $40,000.

Those are all legitimate points Ben, and I will defer to you because you have gone through this process from a side that I have not.

However, when a new doctor joins the office, not every penny of their billings is insurance related. There should be copayments, CL purchases, spectacle purchases, and the rare cash paying patient that all pays on the day of service. If the average specatcle purchase is $250, it should take no more than 1.5 spectacle purchasing patients a day to cover the doctors salary.

If a practice has such a dire cashflow problem or is so lacking in savings that they can't absorb the young doctors salary while waiting for a portion of the reimbursement check to come in, then that office was probably not in any shape to be taking on an associate in the first place.

And the young doctor, if not busy should be able to take on other duties or responsibilities around the office that either free up the old guy to see more patients and generate more revenue, or take some time off and enjoy the fruits of the young doctors labor.

And if an OD isn't willing to give up 25k over three months to end up MAKING 40k after 12 months, then they aren't really in the market for an associate. At least, they shouldnt be because they are thinking just FAR too short term.

 

[posner]

Those are all legitimate points Ben, and I will defer to you because you have gone through this process from a side that I have not.

However, when a new doctor joins the office, not every penny of their billings is insurance related. There should be copayments, CL purchases, spectacle purchases, and the rare cash paying patient that all pays on the day of service. If the average specatcle purchase is $250, it should take no more than 1.5 spectacle purchasing patients a day to cover the doctors salary.

If a practice has such a dire cashflow problem or is so lacking in savings that they can't absorb the young doctors salary while waiting for a portion of the reimbursement check to come in, then that office was probably not in any shape to be taking on an associate in the first place.

And the young doctor, if not busy should be able to take on other duties or responsibilities around the office that either free up the old guy to see more patients and generate more revenue, or take some time off and enjoy the fruits of the young doctors labor.

And if an OD isn't willing to give up 25k over three months to end up MAKING 40k after 12 months, then they aren't really in the market for an associate. At least, they shouldnt be because they are thinking just FAR too short term.

I too have been on both sides of this deal. Your point is well made. I can only refer back to my original statement regarding the selection of healthy practices to consider when buying in. A healthy practice can easily absorb a new OD, unhealthy ones cannot.

POsner

 

[posner]

As an OD working 4.5 days/wk, I make 200-250k/yr, depending on the year. It's true there are OD's who do do fill in work, commercial work, or are newer graduates, who make $400/day (I once did also ). I have a friend in a construction company pulling more then that, and he has no degree, other then a trade license. He makes WAYYYY more then your dental hygienist friend (and so do I). Maybe you can combine art with construction, you know become an architect. Oh wait, that requires alot of schooling, and MANY architects dont make alot of money (but many make millions). Maybe you should become a dental hygienist and go work with your friend? It is health related after all. Better yet go to vet school (if you could get in) and possibly earn less then all of the above!! For that matter in healthcare medicine is generally top-dog, so why not become an MD? I work with three MD's, and two nurses, once a month, and I make more then most of them. If you need to know the earning potential of OD's vs dental hygienists then you are limiting yourself (or are limited).

I am glad to see I was not the only one inflammed by the baseless comments of Lana. I echo your sentiments entirely.

 

[prettygreeneyes]

The fact that I didn't mention anything about caring people until my third post...conclusion was made there too. Have you ever heard of "change of careers"? I think we al did because it has become a "trend" in America. I know people that have BS in Radiology, Master in Violin and they became dentists later on; or BS in Music and now they are in Law School. So maybe I want to change my career too...maybe it will be Optometry maybe not. Maybe I’ll never return from Africa. Who knows the future?

Since you made a direct reference to my post... I'll explain myself. I didn't make a conclusion that you didn't have a desire to help people. I don't even know you. What I do know is the limited information that you provided in your first post. Your first post seemed to center around money, and it seemed borderline insulting to optometrists for you to say, "Damn... you people go to school for how long and make that much? Man... my sister makes more than that, and she's a dental hygenist!" You didn't opt to mention that you have been interested in optometry since you were little, or that you were looking for a complete change in careers. That probably would have framed your post in a different light, and perhaps people would have responded differently, rather than feel the need to defend their chosen profession.

Regardless of your decision, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Ben Chudner]

However, when a new doctor joins the office, not every penny of their billings is insurance related. There should be copayments, CL purchases, spectacle purchases, and the rare cash paying patient that all pays on the day of service. If the average specatcle purchase is $250, it should take no more than 1.5 spectacle purchasing patients a day to cover the doctors salary.

This depends on the location of the practice. In my area, we bill insurance for most patients. These are either exams for companies like VSP, or actual medical visits for real insurance companies. It just doesn't seem like there are that many cash paying patients anymore (again, location specific). Also remember that a $250 pair of glasses can cost up to $125 to make depending on what type of lenses we are talking about. That is just the cost of goods sold and does not include staff time. Plus, if space is an issue as posner points out, and I believe that to be the case a lot of the time (I just don't see many OD's practicing in locations that are too big for them), then you are exchanging a more productive doctor with a less productive doctor. And that less productive doctor has to cover not only his salary for the day but also all of the staff, the lease payments for the building and equipment, utilities, etc.

If a practice has such a dire cashflow problem or is so lacking in savings that they can't absorb the young doctors salary while waiting for a portion of the reimbursement check to come in, then that office was probably not in any shape to be taking on an associate in the first place.

Cashflow is not usually the issue. The issue is that most OD's I know take pretty much every penny out of the practice. Money that can go to the new associate comes from the salary of the owners. That may mean that the owner make $200K that year instead of $250K. While $200K still sounds nice, once you are used to living on $250K it may be difficult to take less.

And the young doctor, if not busy should be able to take on other duties or responsibilities around the office that either free up the old guy to see more patients and generate more revenue, or take some time off and enjoy the fruits of the young doctors labor.

In theory.

And if an OD isn't willing to give up 25k over three months to end up MAKING 40k after 12 months, then they aren't really in the market for an associate. At least, they shouldnt be because they are thinking just FAR too short term.

You'll get no arguement from me on this point, except to say that the $40K is not guaranteed, and if for some reason the new associate doesn't work out it could cost a lot more than $25K.

The bottom line is that bringing on an associate can be very profitable if, as you suggest Ken, the practice is ready for it. I believe the reason older OD's are so quick to lowball new OD's is because they don't want to take too big of a temporary pay cut while the new OD builds his practice. I know in my practice, my associate pretty much took over the retiring doc's practice and I knew she would be fairly productive right away. Even with a practice handed to her, patients were initially reluctant to see the new OD and she was slow at first, while I got really busy. In a short amount of time, she was able to build up her practice back to the levels it was with the older doc. Once that occurred, and she could consistently produce $5-6K per day, she started making me money.

 

[lanavii]

I am very surprised even after I asked for apologies if I offended anyone in here that there are still people in here saying how I make "baseless comments" and I am the one that "inflames". I am surprised to see these comments coming from an intellectual group of people sharing the same profession that they overly "enjoy". The only subject that is being discussed in here is MONEY. Not a word of how to care for the people, what great experiences you've had with your patients, what are the new discoveries etc. I am absolutely disappointed to be in a forum like this, where the concentration of your threads is around how to make more money. Give me a break with your so called attitude that you chose this profession because you love to ask a patient everyday "is this better, or is this better?"
I was once Biology major but I was overly saturated with people just like you. When you asked them something they get it the wrong way. You ask for their help - hell no, do it on your own; you say your opinion - you're out! That was the reason I quit, otherwise I would've become one of you.
Maybe I'll stick with art; at least I know what it means to genuinely care for something even if I'll not get fabulously wealthy.
I do hope to see some of you go help people in third world countries. Someday...once you solve the problem with how to get on those medical plans. Good luck!


PBEA: I think I already mentioned that area of Dentistry does not interest me and the dental hygienist is not my "friend" but my sister. Read again. And I thought attention to detail is a must in your profession!
And, yes, I know that there are people with no degree that make more than you even dreamed of (my dad's friend works in construction as well and he didn't even finish high school and he makes over $1million/year); but again, that was not my point. It was just plain curiosity to see if it is true that's how much an optometrist makes right after school. Somebody posted that earlier and I thought maybe it's a mistake. Of course in the long run optometrists do make more, but it was more of a "are you serious" kind of question, that was taken out of proportion due to the fact that we are prisoners behind a computer screen and, emotions, questions, answers, opinions are taken in the way we read them and don't take into consideration maybe the tone and the intention of the writer.

"I must say I was quite disappointed with the profession I have chosen." Posner 9-12-2006, 10:34PM ("my rant on the current state of optometry...)

 

[drgregory]

I am very surprised even after I asked for apologies if I offended anyone in here that there are still people in here saying how I make "baseless comments" and I am the one that "inflames". I am surprised to see these comments coming from an intellectual group of people sharing the same profession that they overly "enjoy". The only subject that is being discussed in here is MONEY. Not a word of how to care for the people, what great experiences you've had with your patients, what are the new discoveries etc. I am absolutely disappointed to be in a forum like this, where the concentration of your threads is around how to make more money. Give me a break with your so called attitude that you chose this profession because you love to ask a patient everyday "is this better, or is this better?"
I was once Biology major but I was overly saturated with people just like you. When you asked them something they get it the wrong way. You ask for their help - hell no, do it on your own; you say your opinion - you're out! That was the reason I quit, otherwise I would've become one of you.
Maybe I’ll stick with art; at least I know what it means to genuinely care for something even if I’ll not get fabulously wealthy.
I do hope to see some of you go help people in third world countries. Someday...once you solve the problem with how to get on those medical plans. Good luck!


PBEA: I think I already mentioned that area of Dentistry does not interest me and the dental hygienist is not my “friend” but my sister. Read again. And I thought attention to detail is a must in your profession!
And, yes, I know that there are people with no degree that make more than you even dreamed of (my dad’s friend works in construction as well and he didn’t even finish high school and he makes over $1million/year); but again, that was not my point. It was just plain curiosity to see if it is true that’s how much an optometrist makes right after school. Somebody posted that earlier and I thought maybe it’s a mistake. Of course in the long run optometrists do make more, but it was more of a “are you serious” kind of question, that was taken out of proportion due to the fact that we are prisoners behind a computer screen and, emotions, questions, answers, opinions are taken in the way we read them and don’t take into consideration maybe the tone and the intention of the writer.

“I must say I was quite disappointed with the profession I have chosen.” Posner 9-12-2006, 10:34PM (“my rant on the current state of optometry...)

see my post. im the one who said its great that we finally get an unbiased opinion (you) that points out that ODs are waaayyy underpaid for their level of education. i leapfrogged off that and reiterated the obvious points of oversupply and corporate optometry. my post was thanking you.

 

[PBEA]

I am very surprised even after I asked for apologies if I offended anyone in here that there are still people in here saying how I make "baseless comments" and I am the one that "inflames". I am surprised to see these comments coming from an intellectual group of people sharing the same profession that they overly "enjoy". The only subject that is being discussed in here is MONEY. Not a word of how to care for the people, what great experiences you've had with your patients, what are the new discoveries etc. I am absolutely disappointed to be in a forum like this, where the concentration of your threads is around how to make more money. Give me a break with your so called attitude that you chose this profession because you love to ask a patient everyday "is this better, or is this better?"
I was once Biology major but I was overly saturated with people just like you. When you asked them something they get it the wrong way. You ask for their help - hell no, do it on your own; you say your opinion - you're out! That was the reason I quit, otherwise I would've become one of you.
Maybe I’ll stick with art; at least I know what it means to genuinely care for something even if I’ll not get fabulously wealthy.
I do hope to see some of you go help people in third world countries. Someday...once you solve the problem with how to get on those medical plans. Good luck!


PBEA: I think I already mentioned that area of Dentistry does not interest me and the dental hygienist is not my “friend” but my sister. Read again. And I thought attention to detail is a must in your profession!
And, yes, I know that there are people with no degree that make more than you even dreamed of (my dad’s friend works in construction as well and he didn’t even finish high school and he makes over $1million/year); but again, that was not my point. It was just plain curiosity to see if it is true that’s how much an optometrist makes right after school. Somebody posted that earlier and I thought maybe it’s a mistake. Of course in the long run optometrists do make more, but it was more of a “are you serious” kind of question, that was taken out of proportion due to the fact that we are prisoners behind a computer screen and, emotions, questions, answers, opinions are taken in the way we read them and don’t take into consideration maybe the tone and the intention of the writer.

“I must say I was quite disappointed with the profession I have chosen.” Posner 9-12-2006, 10:34PM (“my rant on the current state of optometry...)

Wait a minute, are you actually jumping this thread and throwing around your petty conclusions with the expectation that they have any weight here? Your in undergrad, right!!?! I mean forgive me if I dont value your opinion in regards to optometry or any other field. You seem to have trouble finding direction, so I suggest you exert some self control here, and stick to asking questions, that are on topic, and in a humble, respective manner. Otherwise, go back to your campus hangout and waste your time there.

 

[xmattODx]

I do hope to see some of you go help people in third world countries. Someday...once you solve the problem with how to get on those medical plans. Good luck!

You should note that if your desire is to help people in developing countries (please don't refer to them as third world countries ) optometry is not the profession to choose.

Many (most?) countries do not recognize optometry and the help offered by western ODs is unorganized and a detriment to the countries being "helped".

That said, I agree ODs are underpaid. If getting a minor in biology helps meet pre-reqs for professional school go for it. If you can get your pre-reqs without getting a minor in biology - do that. It'll probably be cheaper to avoid unnecessary courses.

 

[lanavii]

"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)

 

[xmattODx]

"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of their character." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803 - 1882)

Was this directed at me? If so, I'd be happy to discuss my opinion of the world and my character. If not, what specific questions do you have regarding optometry/pre-optometry? List them and I, for one, will be happy to offer my opinion.

 

[lanavii]

You should note that if your desire is to help people in developing countries (please don't refer to them as third world countries ) optometry is not the profession to choose.

Many (most?) countries do not recognize optometry and the help offered by western ODs is unorganized and a detriment to the countries being "helped".

That said, I agree ODs are underpaid. If getting a minor in biology helps meet pre-reqs for professional school go for it. If you can get your pre-reqs without getting a minor in biology - do that. It'll probably be cheaper to avoid unnecessary courses.

I know that many countries don't even recognize the career. I know at least that in some countries in Europe the notion "optometrist" doesn't exist. The only careers eye related are ophthalmologists and opticians.
The only reason I said that is because everybody assumed I want to get rich by going to Optometry and that I do not actually care for the people. Then I explained I am actually involved in helping the bushman tribes in Namibia, Africa. Even if I become an Optometrist and those countries do not recognize the help I would probably go "undercover" there because it is easier. But at least I know more things than just cook for them, teach them how to plant their own crops and build solar water systems for them. They are in major need of medical people. If I am not wrong, I understand that you guys learn almost the same things that they teach in Med School. At least to some extent, right? So the more I know, the more I help those people in need. And. no, nursing would not be a choice (as many of my friends suggested that). Optometry is the only career in the medical field that interests me.
Thank you for your input on what I should do. You are the first one to respond to that question. I just thought that minoring in Biology would be easier than taking the pre-reqs for Optometry. Also one of my advisors says that looks better on the application but that's just his opinion. But i do thank your response.

And I apologize for referring to those countries "third world", for English is NOT my first language and that is the only term I picked up here in US. From now on, I will make sure I say "developing countries". Thanks!

 

[posner]

I am very surprised even after I asked for apologies if I offended anyone in here that there are still people in here saying how I make "baseless comments" and I am the one that "inflames". I am surprised to see these comments coming from an intellectual group of people sharing the same profession that they overly "enjoy". The only subject that is being discussed in here is MONEY. Not a word of how to care for the people, what great experiences you've had with your patients, what are the new discoveries etc. I am absolutely disappointed to be in a forum like this, where the concentration of your threads is around how to make more money. Give me a break with your so called attitude that you chose this profession because you love to ask a patient everyday "is this better, or is this better?"
I was once Biology major but I was overly saturated with people just like you. When you asked them something they get it the wrong way. You ask for their help - hell no, do it on your own; you say your opinion - you're out! That was the reason I quit, otherwise I would've become one of you.
Maybe I’ll stick with art; at least I know what it means to genuinely care for something even if I’ll not get fabulously wealthy.
I do hope to see some of you go help people in third world countries. Someday...once you solve the problem with how to get on those medical plans. Good luck!


PBEA: I think I already mentioned that area of Dentistry does not interest me and the dental hygienist is not my “friend” but my sister. Read again. And I thought attention to detail is a must in your profession!
And, yes, I know that there are people with no degree that make more than you even dreamed of (my dad’s friend works in construction as well and he didn’t even finish high school and he makes over $1million/year); but again, that was not my point. It was just plain curiosity to see if it is true that’s how much an optometrist makes right after school. Somebody posted that earlier and I thought maybe it’s a mistake. Of course in the long run optometrists do make more, but it was more of a “are you serious” kind of question, that was taken out of proportion due to the fact that we are prisoners behind a computer screen and, emotions, questions, answers, opinions are taken in the way we read them and don’t take into consideration maybe the tone and the intention of the writer.

“I must say I was quite disappointed with the profession I have chosen.” Posner 9-12-2006, 10:34PM (“my rant on the current state of optometry...)

Didnt you say something about leaving for Africa?

 

[xmattODx]

Even if I become an Optometrist and those countries do not recognize the help I would probably go "undercover" there because it is easier. But at least I know more things than just cook for them, teach them how to plant their own crops and build solar water systems for them. They are in major need of medical people. If I am not wrong, I understand that you guys learn almost the same things that they teach in Med School. At least to some extent, right?

I applaud your desire to better the world. I would not suggest optometry as a profession if your desire is to work in developing countries and help them.

We DO NOT learn what they learn in medical school. You would be able to provide refractive care and the treatment of ocular infections in the developing world. While refractive care is a major need throughout the world it is dificult to obtain funding to provide such care. It sounds to me - and I know that you said optometry is the only medical field that interests you - that you would do well obtaining a PA degree and an MPH.

Are you currently in Nambia? Nambia has participated in a VISION 2020 workshop so they are developing a plan of action in place to meet the visual needs of their population. You wouldn't want to provide care outside of this plan as it will detract from the development of eye health care in Nambia.

 

[lanavii]

Was this directed at me? If so, I'd be happy to discuss my opinion of the world and my character. If not, what specific questions do you have regarding optometry/pre-optometry? List them and I, for one, will be happy to offer my opinion.

Yes, i do have specific questions about Optometry/pre-optometry. I will try to list them here:
1. The main concern with optometry, as a career, is that there are too many OD's. Here is where i get confused. I get different opinions about that. I've asked OD's in real life. They all have their opinions. There are some that say no more OD's are needed, there are other that say that there is a need of OD's. I did check the "Job Outlook" online and they keep saying because of baby boomers and retiring Ods, there IS a need for them. Now...isn't baby boomers era already happening? And what makes the researchers think that baby boomers will go to an optometrist and not an ophthalmologist? They do want to see a "real Doctor", like they have the definition of a real one. On the other hand, I’ve seen 70-year-old OD's still working and not retiring. So...is there a conclusive report that confirms, "Yes, there are too many OD's". Because I see a lot of Dentists out there...or many students go to pre-dentistry and nobody says there are too many dentists.
2. What is the problem with working in places like Sears, Lenscrafters, Costco etc (those are the places that I know have an Eye Center...and I am not including Wal-Mart for my own reasons against it)? Basically, what are the pros (if any) and the cons on any level?
3. Since I do not have any previous experience in Optometry (I’ve been working in the Radiology Department for the past 2 years) to what extent can OD's treat a patient? I know it's not just eye exams. Can they prescribe medication to their patients or it depends from state to state? (I’m in California) What about Lasik Surgeries. I know they cannot perform it, but what about to assist?
4. After you finish Opt. School, how fast can you get your license?
How about continuing your education? Can you become an ophthalmologist afterwards or you have to go to Med School anyways? I think dentists can become orthodontists after 3 more years if I’m not wrong.
5. Is it possible for an Optometrist to be on call or how often are the Emergency calls? I am asking this because later on I would like to start a family and it is important to know these things.
That's it for now and I hope I didn't bother you with these. If I have more I’ll come back. Thanks in advance.

 

[lanavii]

Posner: Yes, i am planning to go to Africa (Namibia) with my husband next year.
xmattODx: No, i am still in California. When i go to Namibia i will not go to the cities, but actually to the most remote areas in there. We'll be deep in the Kalahari Desert, where most of the tribes are. I know the government limist any access to them and they are trying to extinct them if possible. We have our connections with a person that's been going there for the past 10 years. The main reason he's been going there is for helping them with food, blankets, solar water systems etc. The government doesn't want anybody to go help them so they move them from place to place. They had also found a great source of diomonds in their area so you get the idea. When we're going to go we're not saying that want to help the tribes. It doesn't work that way. We just tell them that we're there to visit or hunting. That's something that goes by very easily. The area that we're going to is 10 hours away from the airport. I don't have all the details since we just signed up for this. The "organization" that we're going with is non-profit and all you have to provide is your plane tickets and your hard work.
The other thing about becoming a PA...i thought about that and it might be another option i am looking into.
Another thing is that i am not going to move to Africa (plus it is actually close to impossible to do that) so i am not thinking about Optometry just because i want to go there. I can do that anyways next year, with no medical training, but i wanted something for myself in the medical filed. I am the kind of person that likes to learn as much as possible. That's why i did Art. I first love it, i have the talent for it and i thought it is never a waste of time. I knew there is no money in it before i got in. Plus i took classes at my university enough to have a master, just because i was interested in the subject and i wasn't hunting for that degree or a piece of paper i can hang somewhere and dust it from time to time.