Top 20 academic general surgery programs nationwide.

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isnt there an official ranking for general surgery programs, such as the one there is for ophthalmology for example?
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ElliotAR said:
A few things:

1) I don't think Baylor has any place on a top twenty list, Vandy has a far superior surgical experince and fellowship placement.

2) Colorado is a great program, that while not necessarily a top 20, offers fantastic training. They are rebuilding, but they will soon be considered elite.

3) I am an MS4, but have struggled like everyone else to make my list. If applying to one of the "elite programs," as well as other lesser known programs like my home school, are you thinking of writing two personal statements? Some of the things I want to accomplish in residency may not be possible at the lesser known programs. My personal statement may put some of these places off, and to ensure a spot at the end of the match, I am thinking of creating a toned down personal statement. Any thoughts?

I guess we will be seeing each other on the interview trail. Good luck to all.

Elliot
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That is perfectly acceptable and strategically a good idea. When I applied, I had two versions of the personal statement - one for academic programs, where I included talking about research experience and plans, and one for community programs where it was de-emphasized.
 
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does it really matter what surg school u go to? Ur basically guarenteed a job anyway and all surgeon make a **** load of money.
 
internist88 said:
all surgeon make a **** load of money.
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Where did you get that idea?

Reimbursement for surgeons has actually fallen over the last decade, whereas it has risen for other fields in medicine. There are some procedures which frankly are not worth doing given the low reimbursement. The days of "all surgeons making a ****load of money" are gone my friend...it is possible, but by no means a guarantee.🙁
 
Doc Ivy said:
Again, another tidbit from my PD-- avoid the "clinics" for residency (Mayo, Cleveland etc) but target them for fellowship. As a resident, you might not get a ton of cases b/c fellows do so much
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Yes, I have heard this too...

"Patience Daniel Son, patience" 🙂
 
i rotated at cleveland clinic and noticed this myself that most interesting cases are done by fellows. residents are left with common cases which are not that common at big names!!!! my 2 cents
 
John K. Toole said:
In addition, I won't change it here, but I think Hopkins is alive by reputation alone. The next few years under Dr. Freischlag will determine whether it will re-emerge as a front-runner. They have fallen from 1st in NIH funding 15 years ago to 31st currently...
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That's interesting. 😕 What's changed since the end of the Cameron era?
 
Out of curiousity, what type of board scores/grades do you all believe will earn you interviews or a spot at one of these presitgious programs? Over 240 on Step 1 and AOA? Inquiring minds want to know... 🙂
 
i'll just put it out there now, i think hands down, the best general, and i emphasize general surgery program out there is university of miami. their broad scope of patients is unmatched. there is no place in the US that see's the vast population of immigrants, 3rd world (i.e advance stage disease, i.e operative, all classes of people and serves advanced tertiary needs WITHOUT a large influx of fellows that you see at a mayo or cleveland clinic. which means you, the general surgeon, not the fellow will get to do this case. i'm not at Uof M, but i did love the program when i interviewed. demographics , language barriers suck, but as far as a skilled surgeon who has seen a lot, miami.

general surgery has changed vastly over the past decade, and few centers now have the patient population to support comprehensive learning as it used to. things are more non operative, more medical therapy. all these things decrease the flow of patients. that coupled with the massive influx of specialist, the training of a general surgeon has definitely taken a hit. but jackson memorial i think is a place thats thriving, its a regional powerhouse in southern florida and serves a 350 mile radius off the coast

i'll take the dude you are crazy as hell comments now.
 
In no particular order.... prestige factor only thing considered.

1. UW
2. Columbia
3. Cornell
4. UCLA
5. Stanford
6. Duke
7. Univ. of Minnesota
8. Vanderbilt
9. WashU
10 NYU
11. MGH
12. Johns Hopkins
13. Michigan
14. B&W
15. Pittsburgh
16. UPenn
17. Cleveland Clinic
18. UCSF
19. Emory
20. Cincinnati
 
To obtain some objective data look on the American Board of Surgery website for pass rates per program in the American Board of Surgery oral and written boards.

There are some interesting surprises.

Some of the more "prestigious" programs have low pass rates and some obscure programs have extremely high pass rates.
There are only a few programs who's pass rate is > 90%.
There are even fewer well known programs with >90 % pass rate.
I am surprised this website hasn't picked up on this important data.

https://home.absurgery.org/xfer/fyp2007summary.pdf

I urge anyone interested in pursuing a surgery residency to look at these objective data
 
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surgical06 said:
i'll just put it out there now, i think hands down, the best general, and i emphasize general surgery program out there is university of miami. their broad scope of patients is unmatched. there is no place in the US that see's the vast population of immigrants, 3rd world (i.e advance stage disease, i.e operative, all classes of people and serves advanced tertiary needs WITHOUT a large influx of fellows that you see at a mayo or cleveland clinic. which means you, the general surgeon, not the fellow will get to do this case. i'm not at Uof M, but i did love the program when i interviewed. demographics , language barriers suck, but as far as a skilled surgeon who has seen a lot, miami.

general surgery has changed vastly over the past decade, and few centers now have the patient population to support comprehensive learning as it used to. things are more non operative, more medical therapy. all these things decrease the flow of patients. that coupled with the massive influx of specialist, the training of a general surgeon has definitely taken a hit. but jackson memorial i think is a place thats thriving, its a regional powerhouse in southern florida and serves a 350 mile radius off the coast

i'll take the dude you are crazy as hell comments now.
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Unless you're single or have enough money to live in a nice place on the beach, this is a rough place to live. There is an amazing amount of culture, so much so that other americans, even from other major cities, may start understanding why immigrants feel so out of place in the rest of the country. Most well represented non-hispanic ethnic groups in the US will be a strong minority in Miami (this includes the WASPS). Even certain latin groups don't always fit in.

That being said, the pathology down here and the confidence of the chiefs is really unrivaled. I scrubbed into a complex open AAA repair last year that included the renal arteries, and watched in awe as the chief resident (not fellow) and attending performed the case with without having to say as much as a word to each other. If you want a rough life that'll make you a great surgeon, you probably should consider Miami. However, no one really gives us the same respect as the Ivys.
 
CattleprodSurg said:
Some of the more "prestigious" programs have low pass rates and some obscure programs have extremely high pass rates.
There are only a few programs who's pass rate is > 90%.
There are even fewer well known programs with >90 % pass rate.
I am surprised this website hasn't picked up on this important data.

https://home.absurgery.org/xfer/fyp2007summary.pdf

I urge anyone interested in pursuing a surgery residency to look at these objective data
Click to expand...

That link HAS been posted here several times before, but its always a good idea to post it again. Maybe one of the Mods could put it in a Sticky above.

At any rate, its a good idea to understand that:

prestigious does not = good education/good ABSITE or board scores
prestigious does not = respect of work hours restrictions
 
Miami_med said:
I scrubbed into a complex open AAA repair last year that included the renal arteries, and watched in awe as the chief resident (not fellow) and attending performed the case with without having to say as much as a word to each other.
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👍
 
in case you are still wondering- as someone who matched into a program that was in top 20 list mentioned, i did not get over 240 on boards and was top 1/3 of my class and not AOA. what matters are your recs and comments. most programs will take a hard worker over a test taker if you prove yourself on the wards. So much of getting in is based on your interview. clicking well with residents and attendings is what matters. 5 years is a long time when you work 80+ hours. Make sure you pick a program where the people you work with have similar social schedules that you do (ie if your single it's not a good idea to go to a program where everyone is married with kids) and you seem to get along with.
 
ctdr said:
in case you are still wondering- as someone who matched into a program that was in top 20 list mentioned, i did not get over 240 on boards and was top 1/3 of my class and not AOA. what matters are your recs and comments. most programs will take a hard worker over a test taker if you prove yourself on the wards. So much of getting in is based on your interview. clicking well with residents and attendings is what matters. 5 years is a long time when you work 80+ hours. Make sure you pick a program where the people you work with have similar social schedules that you do (ie if your single it's not a good idea to go to a program where everyone is married with kids) and you seem to get along with.
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I will second the above. I, too, matched into one of the programs that is mentioned on all of the previous lists, and I came from an underwhelming medical school and had nowhere near those board scores. To echo what cdtr said, I know it was my LOR that paved the way, and a good interview where I felt like I really clicked with the attendings and residents probably got me the spot. Plus, despite what has been and will be mentioned a hundred times over, showing interest in a place you are GENUINELY interested in will do nothing but help you (and may bump you up a few crucial spots on their rank list)
 
I wonder why more people aren't mentioning Princeton. The case load is a bit low, but the didactics are top notch :meanie:
 
Is the initial list more or less still the same or is it outdated?
 
did anyone notice UT Southwestern's combined pass rate? 100%...far out!👍
 
Which one would you prefer? MGH or UT Southwestern?

The operative experience, call schedule and frequency, relations among residents?

Let's get some reviews folks 🙄
 
LucidSplash said:
How about just which one is on probation and which one is not?
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I think it's a temporary situation..Maybe i'm wrong, i don't know..

But in this topic we can(we should) continue comparing programs with each other..

This topic could contain priceless info about surg programs if everyone just writes their experiences, interview memories or so..
 
mendoza said:
I think it's a temporary situation..Maybe i'm wrong, i don't know..

But in this topic we can(we should) continue comparing programs with each other..

This topic could contain priceless info about surg programs if everyone just writes their experiences, interview memories or so..
Click to expand...

You have underestimated the paranoia of SDN students. Very few, if any, will post their experiences with these programs before Match Day. Most of the members of this forum are residents and probably have limited experience with these programs (so most of us are pretty open about where we are/have trained), or its been several years.

And yes probation is a temporary situation - they will either fix the long-standing issues and get off probation, they will lie about fixing them and get off probation or they will lose their accreditation. The latter is least likely as ACGME has relatively little desire to do this to big name programs.

At any rate, since I am unaware of any SDN members who go to MGH you are unlikely to get any real information other than that gleaned from those who have interviewed there (which is dubious at best). Besides what does call schedule have to do with quality of education?
 
mendoza said:
Which one would you prefer? MGH or UT Southwestern?

The operative experience, call schedule and frequency, relations among residents?

Let's get some reviews folks 🙄
Click to expand...
If you're trying to compare these two programs, then you need to learn some more about their basic attributes. This is like comparing apples and oranges. One is a historically strong academic program and the other, while academic, has a more community feel where most grads go into private practice. MGH is (was?) on probation, but you're kidding yourself if you think UTSW residents are under hours. They have a reputation for being malignant and working their residents very hard (pre-80 hour rule hard), and I can confirm it's true.
 
Winged Scapula said:
At any rate, since I am unaware of any SDN members who go to MGH you are unlikely to get any real information other than that gleaned from those who have interviewed there (which is dubious at best). Besides what does call schedule have to do with quality of education?
Click to expand...
Bitsy3221 is a resident there. She posted this in another thread and it's really good.

Bitsy3221 said:
I am a resident at MGH, and very happy here, as is the overwhelming majority of my colleagues. I think as a whole, we are a happy, down to earth and supportive bunch who all work very hard. I am constantly impressed at how much my colleagues love what they do and how committed they are, and have found that this is so important when you are doing a job as stressful as this for as many hours a day that is required. This place can come across as a bit intimidating on interview day (which I suppose is kind of the point) so I can understand some people coming away from that with negative feelings.

I do know residents at BWH as well as former BWH residents who are now fellows at MGH, and after several long discussions contrasting the two places, I found that the overall opinion from within the two places is that MGH residents probably spend more hours in the hospital, if you will, than the Brigham. I think that despite the impression that people have that we are a more unhappy bunch than the Brigham residents, we tend to be a more cohesive bunch, and spend more time with each other socially outside the hospital.

As far as the OP's original question regarding research, I don't think either one is necessarily more or less research oriented, except that most residents at both programs (but not all) end up doing some sort of research. Both the hospitals themselves as well as Harvard has a lot of funding, which helps alleviate the stress on the resident of finding grant money. I think, though I have no figures to prove so, that more residents go straight through at MGH than at BWH. MGH residents do the majority of their rotations on-site, with rotations at two community hospitals and at Boston Children's (with the BWH residents). We have a Level I Burn center, and a Children's Hospital (including Pedi Trauma) on-site which BWH does not have (though they still see some burn patients as I understand). BWH experience includes rotations at the VA, which we do not have. I think the residents at MGH probably do more in the ORs sooner than BWH, but the numbers all equal in the end and the clinical experience overall seems very similar.

If anyone has any specific questions, please feel free to PM me.
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CattleprodSurg said:
To obtain some objective data look on the American Board of Surgery website for pass rates per program in the American Board of Surgery oral and written boards.

There are some interesting surprises.

Some of the more "prestigious" programs have low pass rates and some obscure programs have extremely high pass rates.
There are only a few programs who's pass rate is > 90%.
There are even fewer well known programs with >90 % pass rate.
I am surprised this website hasn't picked up on this important data.

https://home.absurgery.org/xfer/fyp2007summary.pdf

I urge anyone interested in pursuing a surgery residency to look at these objective data
Click to expand...

I can tell you that out of the most recent 5 year cycle (2005-2010) there are 8 programs with a 100% combined pass rate. Only 2 of them are University programs.
 
Guile said:
If you're trying to compare these two programs, then you need to learn some more about their basic attributes. This is like comparing apples and oranges. One is a historically strong academic program and the other, while academic, has a more community feel where most grads go into private practice. MGH is (was?) on probation, but you're kidding yourself if you think UTSW residents are under hours. They have a reputation for being malignant and working their residents very hard (pre-80 hour rule hard), and I can confirm it's true.
Click to expand...


I don't know where you are getting your information from but as I'm currently a resident at UTSW I can confirm that what you are say is currently untrue. Hours are taken very seriously and the program comes down on attendings and chiefs if residents are over hours. It's well recognized that it only takes one prelim resident with nothing to loose to bring a site visit if they report issues on the yearly ACGME survey or contact them directly. I average about 70 hrs a week. I find the malignancy rumors to be the most untrue. Residents submit monthly evaluations of all faculty on their rotations and these are taken seriously. Faculty that are poor teachers have been demoted in the past. Malignancy among residents will vary with time as with any program. We try to weed out the crazies on interviews but occasionally some get it. The current crop of residents are good people. A few have their quirks but I get along with everybody.
 
Need to add UAB, Louisville, Cincinnati

Mt. Sinai and Mayo are not as competitive
 
...
 
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I have to second Couinaud's post regarding the University of Louisville. I stayed there for my residency, was on faculty for three years in General Surgery and am now doing a fellowship in the Northeast. Every day I go to work I am appreciative of my training in Louisville. The operative experience is incredible, both in volume and complexity, finishing me with well over 1000 cases and 14 Whipples. It tends to not get mentioned in "Top-Whatever" lists like these but from an academic and operative experience it is superlative. So many big-name "Top" programs take 5-7 years of your life to stamp your hand in General Surgery and then basically require you to do a fellowship because your actual experience is lacking: too many fellows stealing your cases, too much attending involvement because every pt is a VIP, too little operative experience early in residency, etc. You'll finish Louisville and do a fellowship (anywhere you want by the way) only because it fits your career goals, not because you need more focused training.
 
Hey guys,

I have always considered Columbia to have a fantastic reputation as a training program however on the interview trail I was told by other programs included MGH, Mich, and NYU that Columbia has been losing many prominent faculty members and is on the downfall. Is there any truth to this? Can anyone shed some light?
 
Xeirourgos said:
Hey guys,

I have always considered Columbia to have a fantastic reputation as a training program however on the interview trail I was told by other programs included MGH, Mich, and NYU that Columbia has been losing many prominent faculty members and is on the downfall. Is there any truth to this? Can anyone shed some light?
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I heard that too. I did a rotation there earlier this year and really enjoyed it, so I'm curious to hear the reactions to what's going on (if anything) at the program.
 
Let's get serious, people.

1. MGH
2. Hopkins
3. UCSF
4. UCLA
5. UW
6. UPenn
7. Columbia
8. B&W
9. WashU
10. Michigan
11. Vanderbilt
12. Emory
13. Pitt
14. UVA
15. Northwestern
16. UChicago
17. NYU
18. Cornell
19. UTSW
20. Minnesota
21. Wisconsin
22. Duke
23. Stanford
24. UAB
25. Louisville
 
lol @ ^^

Did you just make a random list of 25 programs?
 
gensurgapp said:
Let's get serious, people.

1. MGH
2. Hopkins
3. UCSF
4. UCLA
5. UW
6. UPenn
7. Columbia
8. B&W
9. WashU
10. Michigan
11. Vanderbilt
12. Emory
13. Pitt
14. UVA
15. Northwestern
16. UChicago
17. NYU
18. Cornell
19. UTSW
20. Minnesota
21. Wisconsin
22. Duke
23. Stanford
24. UAB
25. Louisville
Click to expand...

You clearly know what you are talking about. Thank you so very much, it's been tremendous.
 
gensurgapp said:
Let's get serious, people.

1. MGH
2. Hopkins
3. UCSF
4. UCLA
5. UW
6. UPenn
7. Columbia
8. B&W
9. WashU
10. Michigan
11. Vanderbilt
12. Emory
13. Pitt
14. UVA
15. Northwestern
16. UChicago
17. NYU
18. Cornell
19. UTSW
20. Minnesota
21. Wisconsin
22. Duke
23. Stanford
24. UAB
25. Louisville
Click to expand...

Minnesota in the list whereas UNC out ??😱
U Chicago, Northwestern & UVA better than Stanford, Duke, UAB & Louisville ??!! 😱😱
 
https://home.absurgery.org/xfer/fyp2010summary.pdf

FaytlND said:
I can tell you that out of the most recent 5 year cycle (2005-2010) there are 8 programs with a 100% combined pass rate. Only 2 of them are University programs.
Click to expand...

What seems to me to make UTSW so impressive in this regard is the sheer number of residents taking and passing the exams. It's one thing to get 16 residents to pass, another thing to get 55, in my opinion.
 
lordman said:
Minnesota in the list whereas UNC out ??😱
U Chicago, Northwestern & UVA better than Stanford, Duke, UAB & Louisville ??!! 😱😱
Click to expand...

This has been discussed about a million times. There is marginal at best agreement on a "top 5" program list (consisting of the big name programs such as MGH and Hopkins). After that, there are about 30 programs that could stake a claim to being "top 10" and any attempts to rank them are going to be completely subjective and bound to offend someone.
 
How about listing the bottom 20 general surgery programs? That will be sure to create many pages of entertainment! LOL 😀

All in all, these lists are silly. Every accredited program leads to board certification (assuming you pass). Some names may be popular, and you can even throw around for a few years that you went to "insert popular name here" for residency. But, in the end it will be your own self-made reputation that will matter. Or maybe I'm just convincing myself of this since I'm not at a top tier program. LOL
 
southernIM said:
This has been discussed about a million times. There is marginal at best agreement on a "top 5" program list (consisting of the big name programs such as MGH and Hopkins). After that, there are about 30 programs that could stake a claim to being "top 10" and any attempts to rank them are going to be completely subjective and bound to offend someone.
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This post should be the end of the thread. It really summarizes this whole ranking nonsense.
 
According to Tarpley at Vandy there are five programs that carry a big name everywhere in the world. They are known for producing the big surgical leaders in the world of surgery.

In no particular order, they are: MGH, Hopkins, Michigan, UCSF and Bringham.

After that there are 20 some programs that are top tiers. They are all included on the previous lists.

From my experience on the interview trail, he is right on.
 
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Chirurgia magna said:
According to Tarpley at Vandy there are five programs that carry a big name everywhere in the world...
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I met Tarpley a few weeks ago...he's awesome.

Anyway, I am really kind of pissed off that nobody is putting KU Wichita in the top 20.....maybe if we went to 25....

Oh wait, I'm re-reading the title now and it says top 20 academic programs....we're "academic-affiliated," so that's probably the main reason we're not on the list.

Now let's get serious, people!
 
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