Top 5 Programs

[paz5559]

I have not heard from Spaulding, I rotated there (had a v. good rotation per faculty feedback), but have heard from every other "Top 5" program except them....I think a lot of it is when they happen to get to your application.

I am curious what people consider to be the current "Top 5"

Mine personally would be

RIC
University of Washington
Kessler
Mayo
Baylor/UT Houston

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[normalforce]

I am curious what people consider to be the current "Top 5"

Mine personally would be

RIC
University of Washington
Kessler
Mayo
Baylor/UT Houston

Top 5 with regards to what.

MSK- Mayo, OSU, RIC, U of M, U of Wisc
Inpt- RIC, Kessler, Baylor, U of W, ????
Fellowships- Mayo, U of M, Spaulding, RIC, ????
All around-????

Interview, then decide. Just my thoughts.

 

[paz5559]

Top 5 with regards to what.

MSK- Mayo, OSU, RIC, U of M, U of Wisc
Inpt- RIC, Kessler, Baylor, U of W, ????
Fellowships- Mayo, U of M, Spaulding, RIC, ????
All around-????

Interview, then decide. Just my thoughts.

Top 5 as in places someone just out of med school should consider the premier programs to obtain training by the best teachers and practicioners our field has to offer, particularly if they have not been exposed to all the myriad of aspects of PM&R prior to the application process.

Of course MSK is the sexy pick - but seriously, how many med students do you know that have enough exposure to TBI or EMG to even consider those as options until they have already made the all important decision of where to spend their three or four years of training.

Fellowships? That is just as bad, if not worse, than my looking for an overall top 5 - WHICH fellowship? Just cause Penn has a great interventional program doesn't mean squat about their other fellowship opportunities.

By the way, just so everyone is speaking the same language, EMG is included in MSK, but is NOT part of outpatient according to the ACGME requirements that we have at least a year of inpatient and a year of outpatient training during our three years of PM&R residency.

Interview, then decide? Come on - if you get invited to 20 or more interviews, you ahve to have SOME means to sift out the best options - very few have the unlimited time or resources it would require to follow that rather paternalistic advice.

OK, enough of a tangent - University of Wisconsin? Seems like an outlier to me. I like LSU too, but I am not arrogant enough to knock out the major players in order to espouse a dark horse. I will start a separate thread for best kept secret programs in our field no one seems to mention - seems to me that is the place for pushing an agenda or advocating that a particular program deserves a better reputation than it is generally perceived to have.

 

[Disciple]

For those future physiatrists not sure exactly what they want to do after residency or wish to practice general PM&R, the US NEWS rankings are probably a good place to start.

Those who already know exactly what aspect of PM&R they would like to subspecialize in should dig a little bit deeper.

In retrospect, a good way to go about this would be to find a resident/fellow/attending physiatrist who practices in your chosen subspecialty and ask them, straight up.

 

[paz5559]

For those future physiatrists not sure exactly what they want to do after residency or wish to practice general PM&R, the US NEWS rankings are probably a good place to start.

Those who already know exactly what aspect of PM&R they would like to subspecialize in should dig a little bit deeper.

In retrospect, a good way to go about this would be to find a resident/fellow/attending physiatrist who practices in your chosen subspecialty and ask them, straight up.

Or you could ask the membership of this forum, as I attempted to do with this thread. I too looked at US News when I was applying, but in retrospect, that is a look ONLY at the inpatient side of the equation, and may not be the best guide to one's OVERALL potential training as a resident. Also, equating the rehab center with all aspects of the residency program may not be a legitimate comparison (ie. UCLA = Rancho? not really - most of their time is spent at the West LA VA, so is the Rancho ranking legitimately transferable to the UCLA residency?)

As for asking ONE resident/fellow/attending, I think that is an approach subject to the biases of the person whose opinion you solicit. That is WHY I asked on here - I trust the consensus of this group, and believe the outlying opinions are marginalized by establishing the general sense of the board.

 

[normalforce]

Top 5 as in places someone just out of med school should consider the premier programs to obtain training by the best teachers and practicioners our field has to offer, particularly if they have not been exposed to all the myriad of aspects of PM&R prior to the application process.

Of course MSK is the sexy pick - but seriously, how many med students do you know that have enough exposure to TBI or EMG to even consider those as options until they have already made the all important decision of where to spend their three or four years of training.

Fellowships? That is just as bad, if not worse, than my looking for an overall top 5 - WHICH fellowship? Just cause Penn has a great interventional program doesn't mean squat about their other fellowship opportunities.

By the way, just so everyone is speaking the same language, EMG is included in MSK, but is NOT part of outpatient according to the ACGME requirements that we have at least a year of inpatient and a year of outpatient training during our three years of PM&R residency.

Interview, then decide? Come on - if you get invited to 20 or more interviews, you ahve to have SOME means to sift out the best options - very few have the unlimited time or resources it would require to follow that rather paternalistic advice.

OK, enough of a tangent - University of Wisconsin? Seems like an outlier to me. I like LSU too, but I am not arrogant enough to knock out the major players in order to espouse a dark horse. I will start a separate thread for best kept secret programs in our field no one seems to mention - seems to me that is the place for pushing an agenda or advocating that a particular program deserves a better reputation than it is generally perceived to have.

dude calm down

 

[normalforce]

Or you could ask the membership of this forum, as I attempted to do with this thread. I too looked at US News when I was applying, but in retrospect, that is a look ONLY at the inpatient side of the equation, and may not be the best guide to one's OVERALL potential training as a resident. Also, equating the rehab center with all aspects of the residency program may not be a legitimate comparison (ie. UCLA = Rancho? not really - most of their time is spent at the West LA VA, so is the Rancho ranking legitimately transferable to the UCLA residency?)

As for asking ONE resident/fellow/attending, I think that is an approach subject to the biases of the person whose opinion you solicit. That is WHY I asked on here - I trust the consensus of this group, and believe the outlying opinions are marginalized by establishing the general sense of the board.

again, dude calm down

 

[chauffeur]

top 3 (in no order): RIC, UW, Kessler, (not baylor or mayo b/c of location)

as an MS IV, i think that if you don't know exactly which type of rehab you want to go into and you have the recommendations and board scores to get into Washington, RIC, or Kessler, why not go to one of these.

you will most likely score well on the SAE (yearly skills assessment exams) and having the leaders in the field champion your fellowship application has got to be a plus...

god forbid one might have to take in-house call and have some responsibility.

i think lazy residents only hurt the field and perpetuate the poor impression that other physicians have of physiatrists.

 

[chauffeur]

Or you could ask the membership of this forum, as I attempted to do with this thread. I too looked at US News when I was applying, but in retrospect, that is a look ONLY at the inpatient side of the equation, and may not be the best guide to one's OVERALL potential training as a resident. Also, equating the rehab center with all aspects of the residency program may not be a legitimate comparison (ie. UCLA = Rancho? not really - most of their time is spent at the West LA VA, so is the Rancho ranking legitimately transferable to the UCLA residency?)

i agree. Colorado's rehab hospital is ranked, but i've heard that residents hardly spend any time there, also, hopkins is ranked, but it only has a 14 bed floor! everything else is done elsewhere. US News and World report ranks are definitely deceiving.

good ranking does NOT equal good residency (or even time spend in that good rehab hospital!)

 

[Disciple]

Or you could ask the membership of this forum, as I attempted to do with this thread. I too looked at US News when I was applying, but in retrospect, that is a look ONLY at the inpatient side of the equation, and may not be the best guide to one's OVERALL potential training as a resident. Also, equating the rehab center with all aspects of the residency program may not be a legitimate comparison (ie. UCLA = Rancho? not really - most of their time is spent at the West LA VA, so is the Rancho ranking legitimately transferable to the UCLA residency?)

As for asking ONE resident/fellow/attending, I think that is an approach subject to the biases of the person whose opinion you solicit. That is WHY I asked on here - I trust the consensus of this group, and believe the outlying opinions are marginalized by establishing the general sense of the board.

Yes, you could ask the membership of this forum.

Not everyone is so fortunate to know about it. I didn't.


Regarding asking a resident/fellow/attending, most know what the quality programs are after a few years. PM&R is a small world after all. I would imagine that a student would expect to receive an honest answer from someone he or she has good rapport with or considers a friend.

 

[paz5559]

Yes, you could ask the membership of this forum.

Not everyone is so fortunate to know about it. I didn't.


Regarding asking a resident/fellow/attending, most know what the quality programs are after a few years. PM&R is a small world after all. I would imagine that a student would expect to receive an honest answer from someone he or she has good rapport with or considers a friend.

I don't disagree - merely suggesting that a diversity of opinion and developing a consensus rather than relying on an individal, will objectify the process, and hopefully take each of our subjectiveness out of the list. Biases, likes and dislkes, both personal and professional, are bound to color one person's opinion, whether conciously or subconciously.

 

[paz5559]

top 3 (in no order): RIC, UW, Kessler, (not baylor or mayo b/c of location)

as an MS IV, i think that if you don't know exactly which type of rehab you want to go into and you have the recommendations and board scores to get into Washington, RIC, or Kessler, why not go to one of these.

you will most likely score well on the SAE (yearly skills assessment exams) and having the leaders in the field champion your fellowship application has got to be a plus...

god forbid one might have to take in-house call and have some responsibility.

i think lazy residents only hurt the field and perpetuate the poor impression that other physicians have of physiatrists.

Boy, THERE is a northeastern bias if ever I heard one! I will leave drusso to defend Rochester, but to disparrage Houston, and worse, to do it in comparison to WEST ORANGE, NEW JERSEY? C'mon! Houston is a beautiful city, the hospitals are far more opulent than any other institution I have personally ever seen, the cost of living is next to nothing, and the training is from some of the best and brightest in our field.

Now, let me get your other point straight - I chose PM&R, in PART becuase the lifestyle is less demanding (non-surgical hours). That, in your mind is ok. Yet somehow it is NOT ok to factor in the similar concerns when selecting a a residency training program? Seems like an inconsistent arguement to me. Oh, and those of us who happen to LIKE the idea of taking call from home and sleeping in our own beds - are we ALL "lazy"? Sounds like you are damning a pretty broad swath of future PM&R docs with that disparaging comment.

 

[Gauss]

ahahaha
you are hilarious
so you start a thread asking for opinions and when someone gives you theirs you jump down their throat tearing them apart.
and then you have the arrogance to deem resident's/fellows opinions as too biased.
oh boy
I sure hope I don't end up in the same residency as you

 

[Finally M3]

top 3 (in no order): RIC, UW, Kessler, (not baylor or mayo b/c of location)

as an MS IV, i think that if you don't know exactly which type of rehab you want to go into and you have the recommendations and board scores to get into Washington, RIC, or Kessler, why not go to one of these.

you will most likely score well on the SAE (yearly skills assessment exams) and having the leaders in the field champion your fellowship application has got to be a plus...

god forbid one might have to take in-house call and have some responsibility.

i think lazy residents only hurt the field and perpetuate the poor impression that other physicians have of physiatrists.

I would add Baylor and Mayo to the abover three. And generally, the consensus is RIC is the top program.

There are lots of programs where you'll be trained very well, rock SAEs, and not have overnight call (v. home call). Honestly, why would you volunteer to spend the night in the hospital? It has nothing to do with being industrious/lazy. You take the same amount of responsibility during home call. How will in-house call better prepare you for SAEs?

 

[drusso]

I will leave drusso to defend Rochester, but to disparrage Houston, and worse, to do it in comparison to WEST ORANGE, NEW JERSEY? C'mon!

Well, can't say much about Rochester in its defense...It is what is which is a sleepy, small midwestern town. The Twin Cities, however, are relatively close and offer much more in the way of a thriving cultural/singles/night-life scene.

People who choose Mayo are comfortable ranking the merits of world class training over location and are equally comfortable with the idea that 3 years is "do-able" almost anywhere. At any given time, there are over 1200 resident physicians in training so it's not an entirely unusual choice.

One surprising benefit to being here is that I was able to purchase a townhome on a resident's salary with next to nothing for a down payment and that has helped me establish a great credit history. It's nearly impossible to buy a place in Chicago. Boston, or even Houton on a resident's salary.

 

[paz5559]

ahahaha
you are hilarious
so you start a thread asking for opinions and when someone gives you theirs you jump down their throat tearing them apart.
and then you have the arrogance to deem resident's/fellows opinions as too biased.
oh boy
I sure hope I don't end up in the same residency as you

top 3 (in no order): RIC, UW, Kessler, (not baylor or mayo b/c of location)

as an MS IV, i think that if you don't know exactly which type of rehab you want to go into and you have the recommendations and board scores to get into Washington, RIC, or Kessler, why not go to one of these.

you will most likely score well on the SAE (yearly skills assessment exams) and having the leaders in the field champion your fellowship application has got to be a plus...

god forbid one might have to take in-house call and have some responsibility.

i think lazy residents only hurt the field and perpetuate the poor impression that other physicians have of physiatrists.

Boy, THERE is a northeastern bias if ever I heard one! I will leave drusso to defend Rochester, but to disparrage Houston, and worse, to do it in comparison to WEST ORANGE, NEW JERSEY? C'mon! Houston is a beautiful city, the hospitals are far more opulent than any other institution I have personally ever seen, the cost of living is next to nothing, and the training is from some of the best and brightest in our field.

Now, let me get your other point straight - I chose PM&R, in PART becuase the lifestyle is less demanding (non-surgical hours). That, in your mind is ok. Yet somehow it is NOT ok to factor in the similar concerns when selecting a a residency training program? Seems like an inconsistent arguement to me. Oh, and those of us who happen to LIKE the idea of taking call from home and sleeping in our own beds - are we ALL "lazy"? Sounds like you are damning a pretty broad swath of future PM&R docs with that disparaging comment.

So the way I understand you, Gauss, if I ask a question, I am not allowed to express an opinion regarding the topic of my question? And if, heaven forbid, I take issue with a viewpoint expressed, that automatically rises to the level of arrogantly jumping down their throat and tearing them apart? Forvgive me, I was not aware of the delicate sensibilities of the participants of this forum, nor that I lost my right to participate in the discussion merely by creating a thread. Please accept my most sincere apology

 

[chauffeur]

Boy, THERE is a northeastern bias if ever I heard one! I will leave drusso to defend Rochester, but to disparrage Houston, and worse, to do it in comparison to WEST ORANGE, NEW JERSEY? C'mon! Houston is a beautiful city, the hospitals are far more opulent than any other institution I have personally ever seen, the cost of living is next to nothing, and the training is from some of the best and brightest in our field.

Now, let me get your other point straight - I chose PM&R, in PART becuase the lifestyle is less demanding (non-surgical hours). That, in your mind is ok. Yet somehow it is NOT ok to factor in the similar concerns when selecting a a residency training program? Seems like an inconsistent arguement to me. Oh, and those of us who happen to LIKE the idea of taking call from home and sleeping in our own beds - are we ALL "lazy"? Sounds like you are damning a pretty broad swath of future PM&R docs with that disparaging comment.

i'm only ranking programs in the blue states!
relax, man.
do you have a chip on your shoulder or what? i never said that houston is a bad place to live... i merely stated that it is not as high on my list; i have no relatives there. houston is still in my top 5 and if i really like it when i visit, maybe i'll end up there, who knows. i have family in the northeast.

 

[docbenway]

I think this is what's really important, don't you?


Top programs as ranked by availability of fine sushi.
1)UCLA
2)NYU- This is in spite of the distasteful theft of Nobu Matsuhisa from L.A.
3)UCI
4)Emory....pleasantly surprised at the availability of fine fish in Atlanta.


There are some other programs that I interviewed at that don't deserve to be ranked or I didn't eat sushi there. I won't set foot in Texas (or Ohio for that matter) simply out of principle so these programs are automatically inferior to any of the others. These rankings have nothing to do with the respective qualities of education because I tend to blow off the small stuff. Looking forward to the Toro in Seattle, New Orleans, Baltimore, Chicago, and Boston.
Regards,
Benway.

 

[axm397]

docbenway,
it's funny you mention sushi - cuz when I interviewed at Mayo - one of the interviewers and i spent most of our interview session lamenting the lack of sushi in Rochester Minnesota...

 

[drusso]

docbenway,
it's funny you mention sushi - cuz when I interviewed at Mayo - one of the interviewers and i spent most of our interview session lamenting the lack of sushi in Rochester Minnesota...

And, yet another year has past and there is *STILL* no sushi in Rochester, MN....I did however enjoy a very good dragon roll and sake in the Twin Cities two weeks ago (which opened up a new sake bar)...

--David

 

[Finally M3]

And, yet another year has past and there is *STILL* no sushi in Rochester, MN....I did however enjoy a very good dragon roll and sake in the Twin Cities two weeks ago (which opened up a new sake bar)...

--David

Mmm....nothing beats a nice warm sake when the weather turns cold. Or for those of us in the northern states, nothing beats sake 6 months out of the year!

 

[glazed]

Hello everyone... first time poster/ long time lurker. Anyway, I think that this top 5 argument errrr discussion is quite interesting. I have been hearing a lot from programs about rankings when on interviews and they seem to quote NIH funding A LOT. Specifically, Pittsburgh really talked a ton about it. So, what is everyone's take on how NIH grants affect residency programs in PM&R, and what does everyone think of Pitt? It seems to be a program that is really up-and-coming, but not in the top 5.

Glazed

 

[chauffeur]

I have been hearing a lot from programs about rankings when on interviews and they seem to quote NIH funding A LOT. Specifically, Pittsburgh really talked a ton about it. So, what is everyone's take on how NIH grants affect residency programs in PM&R, and what does everyone think of Pitt? It seems to be a program that is really up-and-coming, but not in the top 5.
Glazed

i haven't heard or read much about NIH grants in particular, but i imagine that programs which are models systems in SCI or TBI would have an easier time getting funding for research projects.

regarding the rankings, i only know of the u.s. news and world report rankings which are based on a physicians alone and not any solid statistics. here is some info i read on the u.s. news and world report site:

"To be ranked in the Rehabilitation specialty, a hospital had to be named by at least 3 percent of board-certified specialists in rehabilitation medicine who answered U.S. News surveys in the past three years. To form the ranking, 150 board-certified rehabilitation specialists this year and last (180 in 2002) were selected at random and asked to list up to five hospitals they consider tops in their specialty regardless of cost or location. The score shows the percentage of responding doctors in 2002, 2003, and 2004 who picked the hospital."

 

[docbenway]

Aside from the obvious and important "fine sushi" method of determining rank order, one should also consider this:

Top Programs ranked by probability of having a chance encounter with Paris Hilton:

1) UCLA. Again....I have to go with L.A. with a bullet. I think she's at the Concord every week and Daddy has a mansion here.

2 and 3 and 4) The Manhattan programs. My friends say they see her here all the time........ and Daddy has a mansion here.

5) Arkansas. I think they have already had a "simple life reunion". You should definitely check this out before making your rank lists....if they haven't, go to Arkansas. Daddy doesn't have a mansion here.

I can't think of any other places.......I guess I won't be ranking very many programs.
regards,
benway

 

[paz5559]

i haven't heard or read much about NIH grants in particular, but i imagine that programs which are models systems in SCI or TBI would have an easier time getting funding for research projects.

regarding the rankings, i only know of the u.s. news and world report rankings which are based on a physicians alone and not any solid statistics. here is some info i read on the u.s. news and world report site:

"To be ranked in the Rehabilitation specialty, a hospital had to be named by at least 3 percent of board-certified specialists in rehabilitation medicine who answered U.S. News surveys in the past three years. To form the ranking, 150 board-certified rehabilitation specialists this year and last (180 in 2002) were selected at random and asked to list up to five hospitals they consider tops in their specialty regardless of cost or location. The score shows the percentage of responding doctors in 2002, 2003, and 2004 who picked the hospital."

Yes, but the critical error you are making is equating hospitals with training programs. Remember, the musculoskeletal component of our training is predominantly outpatient based, and so any ranking of hospitals is going to overweight the inpatient component of PM&R. Those areas focused upon by PASSOR - interventional pain management, sports, spine in general, and occupational rehab - none, or at least very little of those, would be part of any analysis, any evaluation, any rating or ranking system which looked at hospitals alone.

 

[Stinky Tofu]

I think this is what's really important, don't you?


Top programs as ranked by availability of fine sushi.
1)UCLA
2)NYU- This is in spite of the distasteful theft of Nobu Matsuhisa from L.A.
3)UCI
4)Emory....pleasantly surprised at the availability of fine fish in Atlanta.


There are some other programs that I interviewed at that don't deserve to be ranked or I didn't eat sushi there. I won't set foot in Texas (or Ohio for that matter) simply out of principle so these programs are automatically inferior to any of the others. These rankings have nothing to do with the respective qualities of education because I tend to blow off the small stuff. Looking forward to the Toro in Seattle, New Orleans, Baltimore, Chicago, and Boston.
Regards,
Benway.

If you mention UCI and sushi, you are obligated to list Taiko as the restaurant of choice.

 

[Finally M3]

Wouldn't the Philly programs have to be listed for sushi? I hear from friends that Morimoto's is awesome, if a bit overpriced. But then, lots of the new Philly restaurants fall into that category

 

[rehab_sports_dr]

OK, enough of a tangent - University of Wisconsin?

I agree- I went to Wisconsin as an undergrad, so I want it to be a better program, but it's not a top 5 program

 

[rehab_sports_dr]

Pittsburgh- with Ross Zafonte, it has become a GREAT place to do TBI- I might go so far as to call it the best TBI rehab place in the country. Talking to friends applying for TBI fellowships, they consider it the best fellowship

That said, it has very poor sports medicine and musculoskeletal medicine, and right now is not as complete as the classic great programs

 

[rehab_sports_dr]

My criteria for ranking programs is based on overall comprehensive training, preperation for fellowships, and ability to be able to practice compentently in all areas when finishing training.

Based on what I've seen, I would have as my top 5, in no particular order:

UMDNJ/Kessler, Mayo, Washington, RIC, Spaulding

I didn't love Baylor on my interviews, but I think most people would also rank them as top tier.

There are other very good programs that I simply am not as familiar with, such as Colorado and Michigan.

Programs I know and regard very highly, but outside of the top 5- Ohio State, Thomas Jefferson, Mount Sinai

 

[2nd year]

Does anybody know much about the Buffalo Program's reputation? Do they stack up as far as musculoskeletal/sports med. training go? How about the Rochester program. Thanks for any help

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

i agree. Colorado's rehab hospital is ranked, but i've heard that residents hardly spend any time there, also, hopkins is ranked, but it only has a 14 bed floor! everything else is done elsewhere. US News and World report ranks are definitely deceiving.

good ranking does NOT equal good residency (or even time spend in that good rehab hospital!)

I totally agree. The rankings mostly reflect reputation from physicians, patients, and physicians outside of PM&R. Obviously, not from Residents. And most of these top-ranked programs are top-ranked hospitals becuase of their very strong inpatient emphasis.

 

[saiyagirl]

haven't you guys been to Benihana's in Chicago, practically down the street from the RIC? Walk into the basement and what will you find? Unbelieveable maki rolls for $2.

 

[DJPJ69Camaro]

haven't you guys been to Benihana's in Chicago, practically down the street from the RIC? Walk into the basement and what will you find? Unbelieveable maki rolls for $2.

I was reading scutwork and I came across some opposing views on Baylor's program. PGY-4's pretty much claim that the program is spotty and does not live up to it's reputation. PGY-2's claim the PGY-4 class who complained about the program were in error. And that the reason why half of the PGY-4 class failed was due to their own lack of effort. Does anyone outside of the program have any opinions?

 

[dave262]

I think this is what's really important, don't you?


Top programs as ranked by availability of fine sushi.
1)UCLA
2)NYU- This is in spite of the distasteful theft of Nobu Matsuhisa from L.A.
3)UCI
4)Emory....pleasantly surprised at the availability of fine fish in Atlanta.


There are some other programs that I interviewed at that don't deserve to be ranked or I didn't eat sushi there. I won't set foot in Texas (or Ohio for that matter) simply out of principle so these programs are automatically inferior to any of the others. These rankings have nothing to do with the respective qualities of education because I tend to blow off the small stuff. Looking forward to the Toro in Seattle, New Orleans, Baltimore, Chicago, and Boston.
Regards,
Benway.

Dude, totally weak... Houston's sushi is awesome. Sooooo tasty. I want to go to azuma's on kirby and eat their sushi right now...but I'm on my trauma rotation....*sob*

 

[Finally M3]

Dude, totally weak... Houston's sushi is awesome. Sooooo tasty. I want to go to azuma's on kirby and eat their sushi right now...but I'm on my trauma rotation....*sob*

Why would you want to eat sushi in Houston when there is so much good BBQ? Mmmmmm BBQ brisket!

I can understand why Houston is neck & neck with Detroit as the world's fattest city. Every other place we saw down there had an "all-you-can-eat" special

PS Why is 'Whiskey' supposed to be a 'hot' bar? Disappointing compared to 'Whiskey Sky' in Chicago.