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I agree.
Again thanks to the Med Students who have helped with their knowledge. This is a helpful list to current applicants. 👍
Top DO schools...
Started by MegaSpectacular
I agree.
Again thanks to the Med Students who have helped with their knowledge. This is a helpful list to current applicants. 👍
Again, how are you going to know the difference between what the students WANTED to do and what they were FORCED to do? And what they are FORCED to do is more so dependent on their academic performance versus their school's reputation. I'm not denying there isn't residency programs that look at what school you come from as a factor (mostly from ultra competitive programs), but what I am saying is that match lists don't determine the quality of education you will receive at XCom. I think the misconception is that everyone wants to go after the most competitive residency program in their field or believe that university residency programs are better than community residency programs.
nicely put, there are many people that wanted for ex; ortho but didn't have the scores and ended up matching something else. then there's always the DO vs MD match debate...it's all on an indep basis. don't use the match results as a pre med, it'll lead you down a road of misconceptions and false expectations
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This is how I think of it, and maybe it will help clarify some readers thoughts on interpreting match lists.
There is little-to-no transitivity between classes of medical students. In other words, B (c/o 2010) is not dependent on or related to A (c/o 2009). For students intending to matriculate this August, F (c/o of 2014) is almost certainly unrelated to B or A.
Look, if you see School X's match list and they have an allo derm, several rads, Ivy League anesthesia, etc. you know that School X has a decent reputation in the residency world and that if you work hard, you can land in any specialty you want.
If you then look at School Y and see nothing more than IM, FM, Psych, and Peds for two years in a row, it might suggest that School Y is more committed to turning out primary care physicians. Perhaps their board scores are lower, perhaps their clerkships aren't as good, perhaps their administration favors heavily primary care. All those are possibilities. The possibility that no one in a group of over 300 students (two different classes) had an interest outside of primary care is very minimal.
Tell me something, How do you know that?? Did you talk to every student at XCOM to see what they ACTUALLY wanted versus what the HAD to settle for? You know everyone wants to believe that every medical student's goal is to get into the most competitive residency program or the most competitive field in medicine but in reality that's not true. Choosing a school because their match list is sweet is completely ******ed because you're ultimately banking on getting into a certain residency field or program off of someone else's acheivements versus your own.
Did you bother to try to comprehend what I said? I never said that by going to a school with a good match list, you're banking on getting into a field based on someone else's achievements. What I said is that you know, without a doubt, it's POSSIBLE to get a good residency.
Take COMLEX scores. Say school A has a 100% pass rate and school B has a 50% pass rate. Obviously that doesn't mean that if you pick school A, you're going to pass your boards or if you pick school B, you'll fail them, but what it tells me is that school A probably prepares its class better for the boards than school B does since all of school A's students passed whereas only half of school B's students did. No, I don't know if school B's students all slacked off or if school A's students were all super-geniuses. All I have to go on are the numbers and I interpret them the best way I can.
Maybe you thought my post was entirely about what you were saying but I was only commenting on one portion of your post. Or maybe I should have highlighted what I was commenting on your post or something, geez. Take a chill pill and relax its not always about you.🙄
Its POSSIBLE to get a good residency spot or even that Ivy league spot IF you WORK HARD and do well, but not because the previous students landed those same rock star spots. It's POSSIBLE to get into a good residency program coming from a crappy school which all goes back to an individual student's performance is more important than the school's name/reputation/matchlist/ranking/whatever else you want to put in this category. (UHMMMM maybe the second part of my post explains this....😎) (Oh, I'm commenting on the your post that is highlighted here, don't want you to think I'm not "comprehending" you correctly or properly or whatever)
Are all Ivy League programs great training?
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Didn't see anyone talk about cost, so I'll through that out there:
The best school is the cheapest one that fits you best.
For me, that was LECOM-B. We're cheap, have the top COMLEX scores in the land, have great 1st two years, and very good (and flexible) 3-4th years (from what I hear). Plus, can't beat the tuition, cost of living, or weather here.
The best school is the cheapest one that fits you best.
For me, that was LECOM-B. We're cheap, have the top COMLEX scores in the land, have great 1st two years, and very good (and flexible) 3-4th years (from what I hear). Plus, can't beat the tuition, cost of living, or weather here.
I actually think they're probably great training for people that want to go into academia or research.
If I've heard one thing from physicians it's that academia is nothing like private practice. Well, for most DO schools, that's not true because we don't usually do our rotations in academia. Since I want to be in private practice, I think I'll get my best training by doing rotations (and hopefully residency) in large (for the volume), community settings.
For emergency medicine, which is what I am most interested in, some of the Ivy programs are incredibly weak.
At Emory, where I am working on a research project, I was talking to one of the interns who went to med school at Harvard, and she was telling me that their EM program director is a surgeon, and surgery dominates the department.
Now what does that mean? It means the EM residents are the redheaded stepchildren, and they don't get to do or learn anything.
The really good programs are the ones that give their EM residents a lot of autonomy and responsibility. So who gets to manage the airway? Who gets to do the FAST? And so-on.
To tell you the truth, my work at Emory has exposed me to academic medicine in a very positive way. I never thought in a million years that would interest me, but now I cannot imagine myself not having at least some hand in teaching and doing research as an emergency physician and resident.
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of one Ivy program that I would even apply to for EM, other than the ones in NYC. NY Hospital-Queens is a Cornell affilliate, and St. Luke's-Roosevelt is affiliated with Columbia. I'll do my homework and maybe that list will grow, but I'm not going to try for Ivy so I can get my name to look pretty on a match list if I wouldn't be getting the best training available.
And depending on my board scores, I've done some things that are probably going to make me a pretty strong EM applicant. I'm not saying I'll be able to pick and choose, but I think I'll have some attractive options.
Texas Triathlete, you brought up something I've always wondered about.
I don't quite understand medical research in various specialties. For instance, how does one do research in EM? What kinds of research do you do and what kinds of things are you looking for/learning?
If someone went to med school and wanted to do only research instead of clinical medicine, would they have to have a PhD? If not, do they have to do a residency or could they just go into research full-time?
I don't quite understand medical research in various specialties. For instance, how does one do research in EM? What kinds of research do you do and what kinds of things are you looking for/learning?
If someone went to med school and wanted to do only research instead of clinical medicine, would they have to have a PhD? If not, do they have to do a residency or could they just go into research full-time?
For EM, I would look into Carolinas Medical Center residency program. Fantastic training!
I forgot to add one thing,
Those 7 schools I listed was my list before I attended school. However, while studying for Step I, I used Goljan (Pathology professor at OSU) A LOT as does every medical student in the country.
All I can say is WOW, that guy is amazing. If he teaches everyday like he does on those tapes, then I would attend OSU over any school in the country MD or DO. I cannot over estimate how much I learned from his tapes/ book in the 8 weeks before boards studying.
Also, more about TCOM posted from a School Admin recently, reaffirms why I think they are the #1 DO school in the country...cut & pasted as follows:
Hey, did everyone see this? Wow!
Dear Faculty, Staff, and Student Doctors,
Please join me in congratulating the current third year class (Class of 2011) on their exemplary COMLEX I performance. All students have taken the examination from our new third year class, and here is the data that I have just finished receiving, and collated:
154 students took the exam.
The Pass rate is 99.4%
The high score was 785, with four students scoring over 700+
27 students scored between 600 - and 699
81 students scored between 500 and 599
41 students scored between 400 and 499
1 student scored below 400.
The current mean is Mean=544
This is an impressive mean to say the least. For comparison, last year's mean was 536 with 99.3% pass rate. Last year we were number one in both pass rate and mean score.
As you know, we have been number one in the country on the COMLEX I examination for the past four years. Although I will not be able to confirm this until next summer, I am relatively certain this will now be the fifth year in a row where TCOM students are number one on this exam.
All I can say is I am extremely proud of our faculty for their dedication, and extremely proud of our students for their hard work. TCOM students Rock!!
Congratulations.
Dr. Bruce Dubin
Interim Dean
UNTHSC-TCOM
Those 7 schools I listed was my list before I attended school. However, while studying for Step I, I used Goljan (Pathology professor at OSU) A LOT as does every medical student in the country.
All I can say is WOW, that guy is amazing. If he teaches everyday like he does on those tapes, then I would attend OSU over any school in the country MD or DO. I cannot over estimate how much I learned from his tapes/ book in the 8 weeks before boards studying.
Also, more about TCOM posted from a School Admin recently, reaffirms why I think they are the #1 DO school in the country...cut & pasted as follows:
Hey, did everyone see this? Wow!
Dear Faculty, Staff, and Student Doctors,
Please join me in congratulating the current third year class (Class of 2011) on their exemplary COMLEX I performance. All students have taken the examination from our new third year class, and here is the data that I have just finished receiving, and collated:
154 students took the exam.
The Pass rate is 99.4%
The high score was 785, with four students scoring over 700+
27 students scored between 600 - and 699
81 students scored between 500 and 599
41 students scored between 400 and 499
1 student scored below 400.
The current mean is Mean=544
This is an impressive mean to say the least. For comparison, last year's mean was 536 with 99.3% pass rate. Last year we were number one in both pass rate and mean score.
As you know, we have been number one in the country on the COMLEX I examination for the past four years. Although I will not be able to confirm this until next summer, I am relatively certain this will now be the fifth year in a row where TCOM students are number one on this exam.
All I can say is I am extremely proud of our faculty for their dedication, and extremely proud of our students for their hard work. TCOM students Rock!!
Congratulations.
Dr. Bruce Dubin
Interim Dean
UNTHSC-TCOM
I bought his book from the bookstore at school, but where do you get his audio tapes? I checked Amazon and only the book came up.
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Wow, that's amazing! I attended an OUCOM conference this week and they mentioned that they took TCOM's number one spit for one year within the past 2-3, but that they (TCOM) and OUCOM are generally at the top every year for COMLEX pass rates.
Ha, the tapes aren't what you would call legal. Ask someone at your school, almost every medical student has it. If they don't have it now, they most certainly will before board studying starts.
If for some reason none of your fellow students will give it to you, just do a google search for "Goljan tapes" and it should bring you to a website that allows you to buy it.
If for some reason none of your fellow students will give it to you, just do a google search for "Goljan tapes" and it should bring you to a website that allows you to buy it.
Research in the EM might include studying the efficacy of EM physician performed ultrasound vs radiologist performed ultrasound to find DVTs, or possibly the efficacy of rapid opt out HIV testing for all patients presenting to the ED. It's going to include mostly just clinical/translational research. You could also check out a scholarly emergency medicine journal for other examples.
If you only want to do basic science research, I'd skip the clinical degree and just get a PhD. If you want to do more clinically related research, a PhD on top of an MD/DO can help, but I also work with several physician scientists that just have an MD/DO.
Research is different for each specialty. Some have bench research as well as clinical like Allergy and Immunology. EM seems to be it's own deal.
The research director at Christ, Erik Kulstad M.D., recently came and gave a presentation to the EM club here (CCOM) on what research is like in EM. Apparently the trend is attempting to do research on undifferentiated complains (ie "headache") with the goal of cumulating research on which to practice EBM for the major complaints seen in EM. It was really interesting to hear how difficult it is for them to try and find research that applies to undifferentiated complaints since most research out there is done to examine a specific pathology that has already been diagnosed.
EM is a huge field for research, since it is such a young specialty.
Most of these projects involve identifying patients who present to the ED with a certain condition or set of symptoms. Check to see if they qualify by your inclusion and exclusion criteria, and then enroll them. After that, you perform whatever study your project specifies, or collect data, etc.. then you hand it over to the statastician and have him or her make it look pretty, and tell you if there was or was not a significant correlation.
It is really fun and interesting.
Most of these projects involve identifying patients who present to the ED with a certain condition or set of symptoms. Check to see if they qualify by your inclusion and exclusion criteria, and then enroll them. After that, you perform whatever study your project specifies, or collect data, etc.. then you hand it over to the statastician and have him or her make it look pretty, and tell you if there was or was not a significant correlation.
It is really fun and interesting.
Wow, that one student must feel pretty crappy; he/she single-handedly prevented a 100% pass rate...that must suck.
I have read about TCOMs amazing step 1 performance both individually (785 is a ridiculous score) and as a class (mean of 544 is also very impressive), but I talked with one of their graduates (3rd year resident) who is at our EM program and I mentioned the amazing board scores that TCOM receives and he said it is true that they prepare their students well for the boards and it seems more and more that board scores are the end all be all for residencies, but he also said that their rotations and clinical education was not that amazing. Mentioned that they had to travel all over Texas and the clinical educators were not that good. He said students at our school (4th year med students) were more proficient at clinical medicine than he was as an intern and second year resident. So I think the classification of best DO school depends on many factors. Board scores and pass rates are important, but so is clinical medicine. I think you have to weigh all the different factors when ranking schools and when making your decision on where you would like to attend. I also like to say he graduated three to four years ago, so things may have changed since he went through the system. I am not trying to bash TCOM, just pointing out that board scores are a piece of the whole puzzle.
Hahahahaha ya I'm sure that was the thought going through their head when they found out they didn't pass... "Damn I took down my class's passing rate." and not "FUC*! I have to take it over again!" 😉
I was thinking more in the way of "oh my god, I'm the only one in my class who failed". That's gotta be a tough blow to anyone's ego. The less-than-100% pass rate is just adding insult to injury.
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Haha k, I took your post differently and was like ya I'm sure they are worried about having a nice percentage for their school right now.
This. Nobody knows where his/her favorite physician went to school. We all get the same job when we're out.
Spoken like a true pre-med: based solely on MACT scores and undergrad GPAs without the slightest thought about the practical side. A better way of deciding would be to ask the rotation sites affiliated with that school and get a feel for its reputation. Also, consider asking some alumni and current students what they think. Oh yeah, step 1 pass rate/scores. 😉
I'm throwing the flag on this one. I've heard nothing about nightmare stories about this from current and past students. My own mother threatened to push me down the stairs to keep me out of that school. No joke. I interviewed, saw it was a dump in the middle of the *hood*, and straight bailed. Do some serious investigation before you go there, homey.
Based on my LECOM-B experience: It is cheap and we have a good pass rate. On the downside, we have a few extremely unpleasant administrators and faculty members. Any estimation of whether we have more or less toolbags on the payroll would be purely speculative.
A few things to keep in mind when considering board scores so heavily.
a) I know this has been said on SDN previously. While I don't know if this directly applies to TCOM AND OUCOM, several schools that are on the higher end of the spectrum of board scores require their students to take a test prior to boards, that allow their students to take the boards at a certain time. This effectively allows them to avoid publishing or accounting for their lowest % of board scores. This is similar to what some of us may have seen in undergraduate with a committee deciding whether they would approve students for committee letters, just so the institution can publish a 100% acceptance rate to medical schools.
b) As stated above, some schools teach to the boards. If you are entirely inept on an interview rotation, attendings can see right through you, no matter what your score.
c) In the end, to any pre-med reading this forum, like anything in life, if you work hard and put the time in, you'll be fine no matter where you are.
a) I know this has been said on SDN previously. While I don't know if this directly applies to TCOM AND OUCOM, several schools that are on the higher end of the spectrum of board scores require their students to take a test prior to boards, that allow their students to take the boards at a certain time. This effectively allows them to avoid publishing or accounting for their lowest % of board scores. This is similar to what some of us may have seen in undergraduate with a committee deciding whether they would approve students for committee letters, just so the institution can publish a 100% acceptance rate to medical schools.
b) As stated above, some schools teach to the boards. If you are entirely inept on an interview rotation, attendings can see right through you, no matter what your score.
c) In the end, to any pre-med reading this forum, like anything in life, if you work hard and put the time in, you'll be fine no matter where you are.
You and I are 100% the opposite. I got into both KCUMB and LECOM-B. I was thoroughly unimpressed with LECOM and chose KCUMB and have never regretted it. Students will say what they will and the school's location isn't the best, but KCUMB has an extremely good reputation with clinical preceptors and residency directors around the country.
And I think your mom is melodramatic 🙂
You know I really don't understand why people are criticizing the fact that some schools require their students to take a diagnostic Comlex before taking the actual Comlex. To most pre-meds I'm sure it looks like they're just making sure they have the highest pass rate percentage, but maybe these schools actually care about the success of their students and are providing every possible way for them to achieve that. I would much rather have a school that forces me to take a diagnostic to see where I stand than a school that doesn't. It's really annoying how everyone tries to downplay students who do well on the Comlex which gives their school a really high passrate percentage.
You have to put it into perspective. A school that has a 99% pass rate, but didn't allow half the class to take the test, has an inflated pass rate, plain and simple. If the whole class took the COMLEX and they had a 99% pass rate, that would be great! That's what's important to pre-meds. But if you have a class of 150 and only 75 took the COMLEX and of those 75, 99% passed, okay. But you need to consider that 75 people were deemed not ready for boards and I think that should be a huge consideration in comparing pass rates.
In my opinion, giving a mandatory diagnostic to let the students know where they stand before they actually sit for boards is doing everyone a big favor. I think it is a smart move on the part of LECOM to not let everyone take boards until they're ready. It might cramp your style a little bit, but who the hell wants to go in and bomb their boards?
Some people will study for this test by just reading first aid and savarese, and then they'll go in for the test and think "WTF is this ****?"
I think it is a great idea to make everyone do a diagnostic first. Good practice and also it can give people a moment of pause who aren't as ready for it as they thought. BFD if it "inflates" their pass rate.
Some people will study for this test by just reading first aid and savarese, and then they'll go in for the test and think "WTF is this ****?"
I think it is a great idea to make everyone do a diagnostic first. Good practice and also it can give people a moment of pause who aren't as ready for it as they thought. BFD if it "inflates" their pass rate.
I'm not saying it's bad to give students a diagnostic. I'm saying that the pass rate is unreliable if part of the class doesn't take the exam.
I think it is. A pass rate is a pass rate, regardless of how they got it. The fact that they don't have a lot of people failing their boards can only be a good thing, and if you go there, you can be pretty certain that you will be in no danger of failing boards as well.
Haha! I'm glad you had a positive experience there; it's just -like you said- we have opposite impressions of the place.
Also, I'm pretty sure you've met my mom! 😉
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What? They may not have a lot of people failing their boards because half the class isn't allowed to take the boards. Or half the class is strongly discouraged from taking the boards. I would say that any school can have a 99% pass rate if they allowed only the top half of the class to take the boards.
I don't think they've got a bunch of people who simply don't sit for boards. They're just identifying people who aren't prepared and make them delay it until they're ready.
Actually, what I was told when I asked this question is that the pass rates are those who sat for it and passed it at the normal time while those who delayed because of poor diagnostics were often not counted in the pass rate because they usually take it pretty late, after everyone else. I don't know if that's true or if it applies to all schools, but that's it.
ATSU-Kirksville is probably the best.
It has been around the longest and was founded by the founder of Osteopathic medicine.
Reputations. . .
It has been around the longest and was founded by the founder of Osteopathic medicine.
Reputations. . .
Seriously?
Sorry if I'm being a bit of an as$hole here but did you even bother to read what other people posted on this thread?
NSU matched 3 into allo rads, but its actually not as impressive as you may be lead to believe. Ill bite on the thread tho since its been a while since I got involved in threads like this. I would say the top are going to be the state schools: TCOM, UMDNJ, MSUCOM, etc. THen the top privates are probably NSU, CCOM, NYCOM, PCOM.
please tell me you don't really think this is how it works. if you don't take boards you can't graduate. how do you think this would eventually work out for them?
nope sorry, if you don't pass the practice you have to start over at Ross or SGU
😉i'm at a school that sort of has this policy and the kid behind me failed his practice. his board date is the same as it was in Nov. when he scheduled it. it doesn't get delayed, just that he has mandatory attendance at the reviews in may where as other students have the option to not come.
like i said above, at my school there is no delay mandated, just extra review. they may do this at some schools but i've never heard of it. if they delayed and weren't counted then they'd get added on to the next year and that'd be lower...or ignored completely. either way it'd look shady when the numbers came out
I doubt the poster meant they'd never take the boards. I think he or she meant that they wouldn't take it at a reasonable time and be counted in the pass rate.
I've heard the same thing as Just Joshin. That if you don't pass diagnostics at some schools, your board date is delayed and you're not counted among the pass rate.
Ah okay my fault...I'd never head that but I guess you learn something new everyday. Sorry about that.
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