Top EM Programs: According to GARP

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Itscoldinohio

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First let me preface this post with two points:

One, the acknowledgment that my list is not the BE ALL AND END ALL OF LISTS. But it IS from the perspective of an assistant PD (er, me!) and has the advantage of being formulated on a regional basis.

Second, I was even hesitant to post it at all... it is essentially a re-worked version of a list I put in another thread. But I was barraged with emails from several folks saying a) post it, and b) consider a couple of other programs. So I have decided to post it, and you all can kick it around. I won't defend my choices after I put the list up -- it's merely my take, as one in the industry, and should at least kick start some debate. :thumbup:

Full disclosure, I trained in a major Northeastern program and work in the Midwest now.

It's based on what I know of the people who run them, the faculty (big emphasis on these first two points) the overall experience provided at the site (city, variety, acuity, etc), the quality of the parent institution, whether the program typically gets "top rated candidates" (ah! This is an enigma wrapped in an enigma!) and, where possible, takes into consideration what I know of their graduates. I will admit, some of my list will be a "surprise" compared with the usual suspects (at least their order, I think) but it reflects an ever-changing landscape and a certain degree of "diamond in the rough"-edness. I emphasize once again it is influenced heavily by the leadership at those institutions because they will not only steward you well during your 3 or 4 years, but are well poised to help you walk through many "open doors" (I liked that train of thought in one of the above posts) for the rest of your career.

Northeast:

1. BIDMC
2. Christiana
3. Bellevue
4. North Shore
5. Geisinger

Southeast:

1. Carolinas (UNC - Charlotte)
2. Duke
3. Wake Forest
4. UNC - Chapel Hill
5. ECU

Midwest:

1. Iowa
2. Cincinnati
3. Akron
4. Univ Illinois at Chicago
5. Cook County
6. Ohio State
7. Henry Ford
8. UIC (Peoria)
9. U of Michigan
10. Kansas City/Truman (U Missouri)

West and Southwest:

1. Oregon
2. Maricopa
3. UC Irvine
4. Denver
5. U New Mexico
6. LAC + HSC
7. Harbor/UCLA
8. Scott and White
9. Loma Linda
10. Southwestern

** Let me add a couple of sentences that I've added since the (above) original post.

First, several of those who messaged me or posted mentioned Emory. Fair enough, but there are too many problems at Grady specifically that kept it out of my list.

Second, Vandy. I think this is a great program! I just didn't think it was stronger than the ones I know in North Carolina. Maybe that's because I know the leadership of all the NC folks a little better and think they get a better mix of plush university rich type patients + inner city gang bangers in NC than they get in N'ville. Plus, the Vandy EMS angle doesn't mean as much to me (as it might to others) as I view it as a niche.
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uhhh..... highland? hennepin? jacobi? all left off the list in favor of north shore? sorry but this list means nothing to me.
 
Maybe the OP has lots of experience and all (I am not saying he doesnt) but boy is this thread gonna generate lots of discussion (among other things) today....


:corny:
 
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A lot of folks on these boards are pretty enthusiastic about UPMC and Indy, as well.

mvemsnp said:
uhhh..... highland? hennepin? jacobi? all left off the list in favor of north shore? sorry but this list means nothing to me.
Click to expand...
 
While I respect your guts to go out on a limb on such a touchy subject, and to make some unconventional choices, there are just too many glaring exclusions and shocking orders for me to put much stock in this list. My opinion varies considerably from yours, but it's just that - an opinion.

I have only trained at 1 program, so I can only speak knowledgably to the quality of that program's training (It's the best I've ever had!).

To the applicants reading: These lists tend to be based on who people know rather than a truly objective analysis. If you ask 10 different PD's this question you'll get 10 different answers. So why not just make up your own list?
 
That's pretty sad.

The idea that an asst program director would paste a list in a public forum is just pretty revealing - not about the programs though unfortunately.

A couple of comments on your list:

1. You have a pretty high opinion of yourself, there asst pd. Are you suggesting that the other 100 or so programs don't have the people and places, institutions that rise to your high standards? I hope not. By your own admission the people and places are the essential factors - are you suggesting that you really know all the programs and places in the EM community to be that informed?

2. My guess is that you've not done much research or published much. The list is heavy with community programs or newer "academic programs", which is likely the type of program where you trained. There are major academic programs not on your list that have a long history of research, academics, and great clinical training. This omisson says alot about your own training and career biases.

3. You must have left the Northeast a long time ago, as your list in that part of the country, as well as the Midwest for that matter, is just bizarre. My guess is that you're enamoured with the few personalities you know and the place you trained in that section of the country.

I'll resist the temptation to list the programs that really are the leading programs in EM, as well as the temptation to point out the short-comings of many of the programs on this posted list, with my all-powerful and all-knowing state of existence.

Instead, I'll submit that the vast majority of participants in this forum recognize that any list is folly:

On the programs' side - the people, places, funding changes on a nearly daily basis - a very dynamic environment.

On the applicants' side - everyone has their own interests and priorities making any list irrelevant to individuals who do not share the exact preferences and biases of the list-maker.

So, to those of you reading the thread, unfortunate though it is. Go out and discover.

There are alot of great EM programs - most are, fortunately, and there are a lot of great people in EM who's passion is to serve those who are interested in the specialty.

Understand your passions and priorities, and then go find people and places that share your enthusiasm for your future as you want it to be. Once you find those places and people, well then you have your own list AND it's called a rank list for your match. Good luck!
 
It is incomplete....some glaring ED departments missing....is this just to get people on the forum agitated??:D
 
It's all based on opinion and everyone has a right to their own opinion even if there is a majority of people who disagree with it. That said, there are some programs that I visited last year that are missing, and some that I don't think should be mentioned in a "top program" list. An explanation of why you believe these programs are "top" in your opinion would enlighten the audience, throwing names out there just leads to confusion and frank hostility around these parts.

I'm late with this but nobody has said it yet, but "getcha popcorn ready."
 
MedStudGirl said:
That's pretty sad.

The idea that an asst program director would paste a list in a public forum is just pretty revealing - not about the programs though unfortunately.

A couple of comments on your list:

1. You have a pretty high opinion of yourself, there asst pd. Are you suggesting that the other 100 or so programs don't have the people and places, institutions that rise to your high standards? I hope not. By your own admission the people and places are the essential factors - are you suggesting that you really know all the programs and places in the EM community to be that informed?

2. My guess is that you've not done much research or published much. The list is heavy with community programs or newer "academic programs", which is likely the type of program where you trained. There are major academic programs not on your list that have a long history of research, academics, and great clinical training. This omisson says alot about your own training and career biases.

3. You must have left the Northeast a long time ago, as your list in that part of the country, as well as the Midwest for that matter, is just bizarre. My guess is that you're enamoured with the few personalities you know and the place you trained in that section of the country.

I'll resist the temptation to list the programs that really are the leading programs in EM, as well as the temptation to point out the short-comings of many of the programs on this posted list, with my all-powerful and all-knowing state of existence.

Instead, I'll submit that the vast majority of participants in this forum recognize that any list is folly:

On the programs' side - the people, places, funding changes on a nearly daily basis - a very dynamic environment.

On the applicants' side - everyone has their own interests and priorities making any list irrelevant to individuals who do not share the exact preferences and biases of the list-maker.

So, to those of you reading the thread, unfortunate though it is. Go out and discover.

There are alot of great EM programs - most are, fortunately, and there are a lot of great people in EM who's passion is to serve those who are interested in the specialty.

Understand your passions and priorities, and then go find people and places that share your enthusiasm for your future as you want it to be. Once you find those places and people, well then you have your own list AND it's called a rank list for your match. Good luck!
Click to expand...

I don't think you need to attack the OP. He posted a list with a number of disclaimers and a list of his criteria. Feel free to disagree. Feel free to mention programs that you feel the OP left off his list.
 
Medstudgirl, I couldn't agree more! I can't believe an assistant program director would post such a list (especially with so many glaring omissions). I also do not believe for one second that all five North Carolina programs would make the list. I'm not naming names (unlike the OP), but those five programs are not all at the same level. And regardless of what you think of Grady's financial shape, Emory is in fact one of the top programs in the country, and this is coming from multiple program directors that I have rotated with.

In the words of Gob from Arrested Development: "Come on!!!"

And for the record, the greatest EM residency program at this time is Princeton-Plainsboro Teaching Hospital;).
 
Itscoldinohio said:
... it's merely my take, as one in the industry, and should at least kick start some debate. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Strong opinions coming from both angles... almost funny to see from the cheap seats. The OP is obviously just throwing their own opinion out (as stipulated a couple of times), so s/he may be a good source for some info not readily available. The OP stated a bit about why Vanderbilt was excluded (after getting taken to task on another thread), so maybe being constructive with asking why some the others aren't, in her/his opinion, might coincide with their stated intent (please see quote).

Anyone here ever experience a true, organized debate sesh? Talk about heated! But, they tend to be UBER-productive if the "give and take" is respected. I give the OP props for posting again, and during a very emotional time for fourth years and programs.

What I'm interested in is some particulars about their choices (w/o names ro anything that specific), to expand upon the list. It feels to me that the OP wants to contribute...

... Soooooo OP, let's hear some specifics not easily gleaned from websites/forums about why you listed those that you did... since you brought this up in the first place!

:)

...and if all else fails and you still are steamed by this thread, then see you on the flip... I'm just here to see if I can learn some more, the In-N-Out of things, as they say...
 
Actually I would like to add my own program "The Mike's school of fixin' stuff fast as ****" PD's from everywhere and nowhere recommend it. its pretty good....critically acclaimed...residents happy as clams. Free tootsie rolls in the lounge.
 
the problem with this list is that some poor sap of a student will take this as gold, no matter what disclaimers are put in.

students: go to a place (city) that you want to go to, and within that city, find the program whose personaity best suits you. that is the best program for you, period.
 
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Accountability has to be realized at some point, and I hope if someone's in medical school, that they have a pinch of that instilled _somehwere_ , as you know (but some folks really are surprising sometimes, though!). Search function's a friend, and if someone takes this thread as divine... then they will be well-prepared when/if they are accepted to one of the above programs! No harm, no foul.

I certainly don't agree completely with that list either, but it gets me thinkin' about some things, ayuh.

Take care and happy weekend. And thanks for looking out for your colleauges, btw! :)
 
If nothing else it reinforces why we don't usually post these sorts of lists. They simply aren't helpful.
 
Ditto,

I certainly agree with MedStudGirl and willynilly: right on target.
:thumbup:
 
willlynilly said:
the problem with this list is that some poor sap of a student will take this as gold, no matter what disclaimers are put in.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right, and that really is the sad part about it. It might be okay to give advice about what programs are good to apply to, but to say that certain programs are "at the top," when MANY will disagree, is not.
 
Itscoldinohio said:
1. Oregon
2. Maricopa
3. UC Irvine
4. Denver
5. U New Mexico
6. LAC + HSC
7. Harbor/UCLA
8. Scott and White
9. Loma Linda
10. Southwestern
Click to expand...

Having interviewed at 6 of these ten programs and being intimately familiar with several of them, I just wanted to note that I was disappointed to see UC Davis, U of Arizona (Tucson), Highland, and U of Utah left off this list. Especially in favor of two programs I didn't even know existed in the SW after spending 11 years going to school/training in the region. (Although that is probably because I consider Texas a Southern state, not a Western one. I mean, for crying out loud, it has coastline on the Atlantic Ocean.)

I was also disappointed to see perennial favorites Indiana, Hennepin, and Pittsburgh left off the MidWest list. I thought those were all exceptional programs when I interviewed there. If only they weren't in the MidWest...

If nothing else, this thread shows the inherent difficulty in ranking EM programs. Nobody actually knows them all. I also was disappointed to see an assistant program director post this. Especially about regions outside of his/her own.

Good luck everyone applying this year and don't let program "reputation" affect your decision very much.
 
Groan.....

For some reason, I feel just a bit dyspeptic after reading this thread.

Urp.

There, better now.

The good news is that human nature, especially in medicine, is so damn predicitable.

Take care,
Jeff
 
I would give the typical in and out response, but I think med students who look at this post deserve some info

I would argue that everyone has their own top 10 list based upon what they want to experience, where they want to live, and their life plans. For example, I really didn't want to move west of the mississippi river- so no matter how good highland, denver, etc- they would not make my top ten list. Some people would perform better in community ed's vs inner urban city types.....

There are many factors to consider and never let anyone's opinions of top lists affect your own.

For eager med students: these lists change as you interview and make your list.
 
I am pretty happy about this list because my 1st choice isn't on there - hopefully med students everywhere will read the list, take it as gospel, and not rank my 1st choice so I don't have as much competition!:smuggrin::smuggrin:
 
breaker1919 said:
...for the record, the greatest EM residency program at this time is Princeton-Plainsboro Teaching Hospital;).
Click to expand...
Well, that's just insane. Not only does that ED frequently miss diagnoses (although Diagnostic Medicine always seems to swoop in a week later and discover something that a really good ED workup would have caught), but they recently hired an Immunologist as an attending. Talk about a lack of respect for the specialty. She's a sassy Immunologist who looks awesome in scrubs, but still.

In fact, I don't think they have an EM program at PPTH. Since the hospital spends so much elsewhere (maybe on lawsuits?) they don't seem to really have phlebotomists, CT or ultrasound techs, or even all that many RNs, they probably can't afford a proper ED.

Seattle Grace's ED is an embarrassment as well. Unless you're a deer.
 
No biggie on the list but I am failry intimate with some of those programs and frankly am not that impressed.

That being said as one of the other posters mentioned.. U of Az? Hennepin? Pitt? Indiana? I guess it depends on who you know. The faculty at the U of A is quite esteemed. All that being said it is just an opinion and nothing more. Whether or not the OP is really a asst PD is one thing but honestly that doesnt mean squat IMO.

Thats my 2 cents. my opinion it is the U of Az and then everyone else.
 
got something against Philly hospitals?
 
Just read the initial post.. this made me laugh.

Full disclosure, I trained in a major Northeastern program and work in the Midwest now.
Click to expand...

Im guessing he trained at BIDMC which is a "major" northeastern program unlike Pitt, I mean seriously, Pitt?

now at a midwestern program... There are a few that seem to be ranked too high IMO which is likely where the OP is. Anyways.. i think it is silly to hop on this forum with no rep and no one knowing who you are and just dropping some post like that.
 
Flopotomist said:
I am confused.. can somebody explain this?
Click to expand...

Grey's Anatomy...

I love it how their ED never has any ED residents, it's always the surgeons taking care of everything!!
 
Flopotomist said:
I am confused.. can somebody explain this?
Click to expand...
I haven't been watching Grey's this year, but apparently a recent episode featured a multi-car wreck that was caused by a deer in the road. Somehow the deer was in one of the cars that came to the ED, and somehow one of the genius surgical residents diagnosed it with V-fib.

200 joules later, the deer was up and skittering around the parking lot. This is second-hand info, but it's probably way funnier in my imagination anyhow.
 
EctopicFetus said:
...I am failry intimate with some of those programs...
Click to expand...

While I must admit to some anatomical confusion, the visual of the attempt alone is worth the thread. :)

Take care,
Jeff
 
Febrifuge said:
I haven't been watching Grey's this year, but apparently a recent episode featured a multi-car wreck that was caused by a deer in the road. Somehow the deer was in one of the cars that came to the ED, and somehow one of the genius surgical residents diagnosed it with V-fib.

200 joules later, the deer was up and skittering around the parking lot. This is second-hand info, but it's probably way funnier in my imagination anyhow.
Click to expand...

Jumping the Shark??
 
zinjanthropus said:
if so, then it's time to replace the "happy days" terminology with
"shocking the deer" to keep up with the parlance of our times!
Click to expand...

Nice....it would fit perfectly, only I thought the show jumped the shark with that "bomb in the patient's chest that blew up in the OR hallway episode."
 
:confused::confused:What happened to our OP of this thread?:confused::confused:
 
He said in his post he wasn't going to defend his choices; given the vitriol in this thread I'm not surprised he hasn't followed up.
 
ActiveDutyMD said:
Having interviewed at 6 of these ten programs and being intimately familiar with several of them, I just wanted to note that I was disappointed to see UC Davis, U of Arizona (Tucson), Highland, and U of Utah left off this list. Especially in favor of two programs I didn't even know existed in the SW after spending 11 years going to school/training in the region. (Although that is probably because I consider Texas a Southern state, not a Western one. I mean, for crying out loud, it has coastline on the Atlantic Ocean.)
Click to expand...

I agree that TX is southern, but its the Gulf of Mexico, not quite the ocean yet. You have to go to the other side of Florida for the Atlantic! :D
 
froggiepremed said:
I agree that TX is southern, but its the Gulf of Mexico, not quite the ocean yet. You have to go to the other side of Florida for the Atlantic! :D
Click to expand...

As a Texan, I must tell you, Texas is decidedly not southern. Nor western.


Texas is Texas. Pure and simple. :cool:
 
Isnt there any list anywhere that says "number of applicants", then "number accepted".

I dont care about best, I jsut want to see most competitive. I dont mind being a sheep - if everyone wants to go somewhere they've gotta hve some reason.

Thanks.
 
Texas is DEF not the South... Texas is Texas.

I am in Mississippi now...this is the south.

To be in the South, sweettea, turnip greens, and fried chicken has to be your staple foods. Texas prefers bud light, brisket, and beans....


Oh, and I believe it now... Texas at 105 isnt bad cause it really is a dry heat!!!

This Mississippi 99% humidity and 95 gets to me!
 
roja said:
Texas is Texas. Pure and simple. :cool:
Click to expand...
Very true.

Except for the part about "pure."

And maybe "simple." I don't remember it being simple.

It's definitely not like anywhere else.
 
Well the initial message composer in this thread took quite a risk by posting such a list, I have to wonder what the criteria are to get on the list. The Midwest section is very puzzling to me with specific regard to Chicago.

As a recent graduate of a Chicago EM program, I can tell you putting UIC as the only program on the list of Midwest programs to represent Chicago is inaccurate. UIC is a good program, but probably in the middle/end of the pack for the 6 programs. Having dealt with residents and having interviewed at many of these programs, I would put U of Chicago and Northwestern at the top, Christ a strong third and strongest community program, Cook County behind them and the only County program, followed by UIC and Resurrection.

Keep in mind that ALL of these programs are good and residents would be lucky to train at any of them. They all could be on a top 15 list for the midwest.
 
ChicagoAttg said:
Well the initial message composer in this thread took quite a risk by posting such a list, I have to wonder what the criteria are to get on the list. The Midwest section is very puzzling to me with specific regard to Chicago.

As a recent graduate of a Chicago EM program, I can tell you putting UIC as the only program on the list of Midwest programs to represent Chicago is inaccurate. UIC is a good program, but probably in the middle/end of the pack for the 6 programs. Having dealt with residents and having interviewed at many of these programs, I would put U of Chicago and Northwestern at the top, Christ a strong third and strongest community program, Cook County behind them and the only County program, followed by UIC and Resurrection.

Keep in mind that ALL of these programs are good and residents would be lucky to train at any of them. They all could be on a top 15 list for the midwest.
Click to expand...

I interviewed at many of these programs in chicago and while I dont agree with your top 4 I sure do with your bottom 2. That being said all are good programs and impressed me more than other places did. I think we can all agree the OP's list is no more accurate than me pulling balls out of a bingo hopper and presenting this as my opinion.
 
1. beans are fine, as long as they are miles away from chili.
2. No sweet tea
3. No bud light. Real texans drink shiner bock. ;) (All the damn 'texas' bars here try adn serve lone star. I keep telling them NO texan drinks lone star. we serve it to tourists.)
4. We are complicated. Especiallly the women. :D
 
That is so true about NY!! And they want $7.00 for a Lone St. I didn't think an ENTIRE 6 pack of Lone Star cost $7.00
 
EM_Rebuilder said:
Texas at 105 isnt bad cause it really is a dry heat!!!
Click to expand...

Been to Galveston or Houston lately?

Pant, pant, pant....I'm sweating just thinking of it.

Roja, way to preach it.

Lone star beer indeed. Hrumph.

If anyones interested (and why wouldn't you be?), the tour of the brewery in Shiner, Texas is pretty cool, although it doesn't have the Hall of Horns like the old Lone Star brewery had.

Take care,
Jeff
 
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