Top Programs In Anesthesiology

[countingdays]

NIH 2008

1washington university $7,032,993
2univ of california san francisco $6,900,791
3univ of pennsylvania $4,988,750
4johns hopkins university $4,857,760
5univ of pittsburgh $4,353,822
6medical college of wisconsin $4,168,880
7univ of california los angeles $4,030,782
8oregon hlth scis univ $3,534,740
9vanderbilt university $3,429,973
10stanford university $3,229,656
11univ of tx med br galveston $3,124,224
12univ of california san diego $2,916,376
13univ of chicago $2,823,505
14new york university $2,537,046
15university of alabama $2,510,615
16columbia univ $2,316,145
17yale univ $2,099,231
18duke university $1,992,790
19university of utah $1,713,711
20university of michigan $1,706,081
21university of iowa $1,604,594
22university of virginia $1,468,439
23cornell university $1,223,965
24wake forest $1,126,732
25university of washington $1,011,746
26univ of california irvine $1,006,104
27university of illinois $692,656
28univ of rochester $652,307
29baylor college of medicine $634,151
30university of maryland $614,583

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[Gimlet]

Did you compile that list yourself, Gypsy? If so, strong work! As far as I know, they haven't generated comparative rankings since 2005.

FYI, most of the numbers on there look spot-on, but a couple seem to be a little off (e.g.: U-Pitt should be $4,505,751 and MCW is actually $4,547,630. Trivial amounts, I know...but it does actually change the ranking. U-Penn should be $5,116,622, too.).

I agree with the above discussion that this list means little to nothing in terms of which programs provide the best training. But I guess it could help guide the applications of somebody hell-bent on doing large amounts of bench research.

 

[ekamenet]

Just thought I'd bump this up to see if anyone has any different opinions now that we are nearing the end (or are at least in the second half) of interview season.

I'm most curious about what people's opinions are of the Chicago programs

 

[checkov]

...

 

[sunset823]

I think Michigan is a great program.... why didn't it fill? Location location location.
I would agree with NoDiggity on the best of the best. The rest are debatable.

why would people have a problem with UMich's location? Ann Arbor is one of the best cities to live in the country, and beats any of the big cities by a mile in quality of living for cost-efficiency ratio

I love Ann Arbor, but I'll probably not do residency there cuz a) I'm single, and the place is very annoyingly couples/family oriented and 2) I spent a lot of years there and want some new scenery, but anybody who wouldn't apply to UMich just based on location is insane...and to add, there's TONS of money coming into the med center, the new hospital wings (Cardiac, Women/Children's, and many more to come, I'm sure)/biological research buildings are fabulous

And same for Cleveland Clinic - great hospital, underrated city - I spent 13 years there, many suburbs are great to live in, and they've really cleaned up the downtown - CC deserves to be on the list of top programs too

anyway, I have nothing to add to what tiers different schools are in, but don't diss a place just cuz it's in the Midwest...and yes, I'm a damn proud Rust-Belter

 

[bigdan]

...I'll probably not do residency there cuz a) I'm single, and the place is very annoyingly couples/family oriented

I think this is a reason why people might not rank UMich; wintertime temps prolly don't lure the beach creatures either.


dc

 

[modelslashactor]

why would people have a problem with UMich's location?...I love Ann Arbor, but I'll probably not do residency there cuz a) I'm single, and the place is very annoyingly couples/family oriented

I think you just answered your own question. I considered it for med school when I was 22 and still into the college town scene, but after living in the city it would be tough to go back now. It's clearly a top program and if you're settled down it's very nice but for us single types it's nice to have a bigger fishbowl. Now if you're into undergrad girls...

 

[Eta Carinae]

"the sum total of compensation for the 10 major managed care chief executive officers (CEOs) exceeds $1 billion. That is 1/1,500 of the entire national expenditure for health care in 2001"

I wouldn't walk around these parts with a signature like that, now.

 

[staylor21]

U Chicago: This program had both strong positives and negatives. The chair is extremely well-known and is president emeritus of the ASA. However, he seemed to be quite a tool, and (1) did not portray any interest in inviting prospective applicants to the program, (2) ignored questions from applicants, and (3) kept interrupting when the assistant program director was talking. The other faculty seemed more balanced, and were pleasant to talk with. The hospital is located in Hyde Park, which was difficult to navigate/park. The facilities were poor, with the anesthesia offices / resident lounge in especially bad condition. Fortunately, the residents seemed pretty cool -- roughly 1/3 go into academics, and a fair number complete peer-reviewed publications while in residency. One point in favor is that UChicago offers a special rotation in echocardiography for CA-3's (which I've only seen offered by Brigham & Women's and Mayo). One detriment is that this program is *not* a Trauma I center. I've also heard that residents can be assigned 'Research Days' due to lack of cases. Middle-tier.

I'd have to disagree with some of what's written above. I'm a UofC med student currently, and I really like the chair (and program director). They're both amazingly accessible, and for a chair to be as accessible as he is to med studs is pretty impressive in my opinion (obviously it's also great for the PD to be accessible too, but you sort of expect that more than you would the chair). They've both been great resources to me during this season. "Tool" is definitely not a word I would use.

As for facilities, not sure I'd use the word "poor," but I would concede below average based on the places I've seen. But anyone who's considering the program presumably has seen the facilities and can decide on their own. Not sure the complaint about parking--it's definitely hard to park on the streets, but garage parking is provided on the day of the interview (and also provided if you're a resident). Hyde park is a grid system (numbered streets run east-west, names run north south), so navigation wasn't too bad for me--it's definitely not Boston bad. Actually, I find Chicago fairly easy to navigate as cities go, but then again, I've been here awhile.

Just another man's opinion. Granted it's my institution so maybe I'm a little biased, but then again, I also have the benefit of being fairly familiar with it as well.

 

[cfdavid]

why would people have a problem with UMich's location? Ann Arbor is one of the best cities to live in the country, and beats any of the big cities by a mile in quality of living for cost-efficiency ratio

I love Ann Arbor, but I'll probably not do residency there cuz a) I'm single, and the place is very annoyingly couples/family oriented and 2) I spent a lot of years there and want some new scenery, but anybody who wouldn't apply to UMich just based on location is insane...and to add, there's TONS of money coming into the med center, the new hospital wings (Cardiac, Women/Children's, and many more to come, I'm sure)/biological research buildings are fabulous

And same for Cleveland Clinic - great hospital, underrated city - I spent 13 years there, many suburbs are great to live in, and they've really cleaned up the downtown - CC deserves to be on the list of top programs too

anyway, I have nothing to add to what tiers different schools are in, but don't diss a place just cuz it's in the Midwest...and yes, I'm a damn proud Rust-Belter

Don't forget all those single female PhD candidates! There are plenty from what I hear. UMich is a big place.


Oops, just noticed you've already spent time there. My bad.

 

[bubalus]

Interviewed at all Chicago programs but Rush and Illinois Masonic:

***


U Chicago: One point in favor is that UChicago offers a special rotation in echocardiography for CA-3's (which I've only seen offered by Brigham & Women's and Mayo).

Utah has a month of echo which includes TEE and TTE. Most residents do an elective month as well as the required month for a total of 2. Their first year residents learn how to do TTE exams. How many other programs have residents taking (and passing) the TEE boards? If you're looking for echo, you won't get better training than there.

 

[ekamenet]

Interviewed at all Chicago programs but Rush and Illinois Masonic:

***

Northwestern: Seemed the best of the Chicago programs. They a good mix of young/established faculty, and have a top-notch pain department chaired by Benzon, who authored one of the main textbooks in the field. The chair is young, but she's very well-published and seems to have a decent pulse on the program. Case load is large, with a wealth of complex / interesting cases. Residents seemed to be normal folks, and predominantly interested in private practice. I'd rank it as a mid-tier school.

U Chicago: This program had both strong positives and negatives. The chair is extremely well-known and is president emeritus of the ASA. However, he seemed to be quite a tool, and (1) did not portray any interest in inviting prospective applicants to the program, (2) ignored questions from applicants, and (3) kept interrupting when the assistant program director was talking. The other faculty seemed more balanced, and were pleasant to talk with. The hospital is located in Hyde Park, which was difficult to navigate/park. The facilities were poor, with the anesthesia offices / resident lounge in especially bad condition. Fortunately, the residents seemed pretty cool -- roughly 1/3 go into academics, and a fair number complete peer-reviewed publications while in residency. One point in favor is that UChicago offers a special rotation in echocardiography for CA-3's (which I've only seen offered by Brigham & Women's and Mayo). One detriment is that this program is *not* a Trauma I center. I've also heard that residents can be assigned 'Research Days' due to lack of cases. Middle-tier.

UIC: Very generic. The program has a large and complex case volume, but has virtually no outstanding characteristics. They do have a option to blend intern year and residency together, but I'm not sure (1) if this is a good idea, and (2) how many residents actually do this. Low-tier school.

Loyola: Very hard-working program, with residents working 50-70 hours. They have a good case mix, with lots of liver, cardiac and transplant cases. The interview day itself was sketchy, with the inclusion of attendings in the resident dinner (which frankly minimizes the chance to get unbiased answers on the program). Roughly 50% of the faculty are FMG's. Roughly 50% of the folks that I interviewed with were DO's. Atmosphere was collegial, given the fact that it's a Catholic institution. Low-tier school.

***

Looking back, I wasn't impressed by any of the Chicago programs. Within the Midwest, I felt that Mayo and Wash U St. Louis were much better options. Just my $0.02.

Thanks! It's interesting to hear other people's opinions/perspectives of the Chicago programs.

 

[ejs064]

1) Chicago Programs: I'm a CA-1 at a West Coast program but went to med school at U of C. I'm mainly here for location, but thought I'd likely end up at U of C, and I know I'd be happy there. One of the most significant reasons I went into anesthesiology is because of the faculty at U of C. I'll echo staylor21's opinion that both the chair and PD are very accessible, and I had multiple meetings with both of them during the application/interview process. Their case mix is very good and the program will train you well (as many in the US will). There is very little trauma there (U of C is only a level 1 trauma center for peds), and U of C's new relationship with the North Shore system may change some rotations. The most unique aspect of the program at U of C is one of it's greatest strengths -- the academic atmosphere of the department and the university as a whole. Ivory Tower concerns aside, there are few places where the faculty so greatly embrace the ideals of academic curiosity. This curiosity is an important trait of a well-trained anesthsiologist, no matter what one's scope of practice.

The only other Chicago program I am familiar with is Northwestern, which also has significant strengths. Their volume sure seems higher than U of C, and they'll have a larger proportion of bread and butter cases, as well. Their OB anesthesia is one of the best in the country. The perks of the program (free parking, beautiful facilities, exercise equipment in the call rooms), are tough to ignore, too. Some of the faculty I got to know on my interview day and my second look day were really quality people, and I could sense that this is a program that is definitely improving and could certainly be a top-tier program. A number of recent U of C grads are doing their anesthesia residencies at Northwestern...

2) ECHO: Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it is now essentially not possible to be certified in echo ("certification in advanced PTE") without A) doing 12 months "of perioperative care of surgical patients with cardiovascular disease" APART from residency training AND B) reading 300 TTE/TEEs, 150 of which you have performed.

See: http://www.echoboards.org/pte/comboapp2009.pdf

It seems you can take the exam if you don't qualify to be certified, however (if you have a spare $995 sitting around)

 

[lfesiam]

Just want to throw this out there for this year's applicant.

When ranking times come around...

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION....

When all is said and done, LOCATION will play a big part in your decision during ranking time, especially if you have a spouse + kids... ask your love ones where they want to be.... you will be in the hospital working most of the time... while your love ones will likely have more free time to spend around the location you will be in the next 4 years.... happy family = happy life.

yep...i know it is only "4 years"......but it is still 4 years of your life and also your love ones' life..... I was torn between LOCATION vs. REPUTATION during ranking time, just want to give you guys heads up and think it through very carefully where you want to live.

also BE AWARE OF THE "RANK TO MATCH" PHONE CALLS....it is not 100% certain.

PS: statistically, you will most likely end up practicing in the area where you will be training (much easier to establish local networking + interviews...)

 

[ProRealDoc]

Interviewed at all Chicago programs but Rush and Illinois Masonic:

***

Northwestern: Seemed the best of the Chicago programs. They a good mix of young/established faculty, and have a top-notch pain department chaired by Benzon, who authored one of the main textbooks in the field. The chair is young, but she's very well-published and seems to have a decent pulse on the program. Case load is large, with a wealth of complex / interesting cases. Residents seemed to be normal folks, and predominantly interested in private practice. I'd rank it as a mid-tier school.

U Chicago: This program had both strong positives and negatives. The chair is extremely well-known and is president emeritus of the ASA. However, he seemed to be quite a tool, and (1) did not portray any interest in inviting prospective applicants to the program, (2) ignored questions from applicants, and (3) kept interrupting when the assistant program director was talking. The other faculty seemed more balanced, and were pleasant to talk with. The hospital is located in Hyde Park, which was difficult to navigate/park. The facilities were poor, with the anesthesia offices / resident lounge in especially bad condition. Fortunately, the residents seemed pretty cool -- roughly 1/3 go into academics, and a fair number complete peer-reviewed publications while in residency. One point in favor is that UChicago offers a special rotation in echocardiography for CA-3's (which I've only seen offered by Brigham & Women's and Mayo). One detriment is that this program is *not* a Trauma I center. I've also heard that residents can be assigned 'Research Days' due to lack of cases. Middle-tier.

UIC: Very generic. The program has a large and complex case volume, but has virtually no outstanding characteristics. They do have a option to blend intern year and residency together, but I'm not sure (1) if this is a good idea, and (2) how many residents actually do this. Low-tier school.

Loyola: Very hard-working program, with residents working 50-70 hours. They have a good case mix, with lots of liver, cardiac and transplant cases. The interview day itself was sketchy, with the inclusion of attendings in the resident dinner (which frankly minimizes the chance to get unbiased answers on the program). Roughly 50% of the faculty are FMG's. Roughly 50% of the folks that I interviewed with were DO's. Atmosphere was collegial, given the fact that it's a Catholic institution. Low-tier school.

***

Looking back, I wasn't impressed by any of the Chicago programs. Within the Midwest, I felt that Mayo and Wash U St. Louis were much better options. Just my $0.02.

Not quite correct.

 

[Lurch]

For those attendings out there who went to a "top tier residency program" (whatever that means), do you believe there is a real advantage to having done so in terms of making yourself more marketable as you applied for jobs. In other words, is it really worth going to a top tier program, often sacrificing location/lifestyle in my mind, if everyone ends up with equivalent jobs in the end. Maybe this is what lfesiam is saying? Or maybe it's more complicated? Please advise.

 

[positraction]

Testamur Status
For licensed physicians not meeting the criteria for certification, the NBE
will continue to allow access to the examination. This is to encourage
physicians to test and demonstrate their knowledge of perioperative
transesophageal echocardiography based on an objective standard and to
allow the medical community the opportunity to recognize individuals
who elect to participate in and successfully complete a comprehensive
examination in perioperative transesophageal.echocardiography. Those
who successfully pass the examination, but do not fulfill the necessary
criteria for certification, will be granted testamur status as having success-
fully completed the Examination of Special Competence in Perioperative
Transesophageal Echocardiography of the National Board of Echocar-
diography, Inc.
Certification
Licensed physicians who meet the criteria may apply for Certification at
the time of application for the 2009 PTEeXAM. The application, checklist,
and all documentation should be submitted with the application. The Cer-
tification Committee will meet to review applications for certification.
Applicants will be notified in writing of the decision of the Committee.
Review of application for certification will be contingent on successful
completion of the 2009 PTEeXAM. Applicants will receive notification
of the decision of the committee within the year.
Individuals who pass the PTEeXAM and are awarded testamur status
may apply for certification at any point at which they meet the clinical
experience requirements as long as their testamur status remains valid.


Seems to me to mean that if you learn TEE during residency you can gain testamur status and certify at a later date having met the other requirements, which usually means fellowship work. Whichever way you choose to proceed, you still have to take the test whether it is sooner (during residency when you are in a motivating, learning environment) or later, when you are busy trying to enter practice.

My $0.02.

 

[5twilight5]

Just want to throw this out there for this year's applicant.

When ranking times come around...

LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION....

When all is said and done, LOCATION will play a big part in your decision during ranking time, especially if you have a spouse + kids... ask your love ones where they want to be.... you will be in the hospital working most of the time... while your love ones will likely have more free time to spend around the location you will be in the next 4 years.... happy family = happy life.

yep...i know it is only "4 years"......but it is still 4 years of your life and also your love ones' life..... I was torn between LOCATION vs. REPUTATION during ranking time, just want to give you guys heads up and think it through very carefully where you want to live.

also BE AWARE OF THE "RANK TO MATCH" PHONE CALLS....it is not 100% certain.

PS: statistically, you will most likely end up practicing in the area where you will be training (much easier to establish local networking + interviews...)

What do you mean "rank to match" phone calls?

Thanks!

P.S. I interviewed at some of the Chicago programs and most seemed to me workhorse programs with residents being unhappy at a couple of programs I went to. I guess I am more the type of person who wants to be in a program where I like the people, can hang out with them in and out of the hospital because it is 4 years of very close interaction. As interview season is dwindling down, name has become less important and location plus the people in the program has become more important in my decision. Just my two cents

 

[lfesiam]

What do you mean "rank to match" phone calls?

Thanks!

P.S. I interviewed at some of the Chicago programs and most seemed to me workhorse programs with residents being unhappy at a couple of programs I went to. I guess I am more the type of person who wants to be in a program where I like the people, can hang out with them in and out of the hospital because it is 4 years of very close interaction. As interview season is dwindling down, name has become less important and location plus the people in the program has become more important in my decision. Just my two cents

Phone calls made by some programs telling candidates that they are "guaranteed to match" if you rank them highly. Usually, the call is made to the candidates that are rank high on the list. Expect them to come around ranking time. This is similar to the candidates calling to their top programs on their list hoping to influence the rank order. Vice versa. If it is not written on paper, take it with a grain of salt. Becareful of the "wording" if you do get the call.....some may claim you will match according to last year's statistic....a better wording would be "you are rank on the top 12 of our rank list and we have 12 open positions"

Bottom line, might be wise to not let the call influence your rank list....few candidates got burnt because of it. Good luck everyone!

 

[tennisnr]

Isn't that completely against the match process?
I had thought programs in no way could inform applicants where they stand.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Isn't that completely against the match process?
I had thought programs in no way could inform applicants where they stand.

I think each side can volunteer information, but you can't ask the other side any info, IIRC. Of course, even this information may be bogus. Every year there will be stories of applicants "ranked to match" who have to scramble.

 

[ekamenet]

For those attendings out there who went to a "top tier residency program" (whatever that means), do you believe there is a real advantage to having done so in terms of making yourself more marketable as you applied for jobs. In other words, is it really worth going to a top tier program, often sacrificing location/lifestyle in my mind, if everyone ends up with equivalent jobs in the end. Maybe this is what lfesiam is saying? Or maybe it's more complicated? Please advise.

Very interested in what people think about this...

 

[IlDestriero]

Very interested in what people think about this...

Some of my thoughts, with a caveat at the end.

Just as the quality of your undergraduate University and MCAT scores affects the competitiveness of your Medical School application and the quality of your medical school and USMLE scores affects the competitiveness of your residency application, the quality/prestige of your residency training will affect your job search and marketability. Prospective employers want to know that you can handle the workload in their practice and that you will pass your boards on the first attempt, and not become a thorn in their sides down the road. For many reasons it is in your best interest to train at the best program that you can get into. By the best program I mean a program which does very complex cases on a regular basis, easily exceeds all of their numbers and has a reasonably happy and stable resident class. If everyone that you talk to at the interview is unhappy because they are worked to death every day, given infrequent or poor lectures, and/or feel unprepared to handle challenging cases, you too will be miserable and poorly trained and would likely do better at a different (though still strong) program. Even worse would be a program where everyone barely meets their numbers or requires "creative accounting", having to send you to other hospitals for several out rotations, etc. It is one thing to say that the ICU training or pain clinic is weak and send you to another hospital for this small component of your education, it is quite another if many of your cases at your home program are ASA 1 or 2 or outpatient (or ASA 3/4 eyeballs!) and you are going out for hearts and vascular or trauma and peds cases.
However with regards to post residency competitiveness for jobs, if you are certain that you want to live in a particular area of the country you would probably increase your likelihood of finding a job there by attending the best residency program that you could in that region, unless you can match at an elite program with national name recognition. Why? Because your future employers/partners will be personally familiar with graduates of your residency program, if not graduates themselves.
One last caveat- if you are planning to relocate across the country to go to an elite program primarily for the name but intend to relocate again after residency is over, be sure that the program that you think is "elite" is actually NATIONALLY recognized as an elite program and not just regionally recognized as a superior program. It is difficult to come up with a good example but Vanderbilt or UNC may have extraordinary anesthesia programs, but coming from New England and now California, I don't know anything about them, as opposed to Mass General, Mayo, Hopkins, or Stanford who's names are known worldwide.
The fact is that pedigree, and being selected as a Chief Resident, will open doors for you. You will get an interview where others will not. You may not get the job and you almost certainly will not get a better offer, but you will get an interview just because you have Harvard Medical School or a Mass General residency on your CV. This bias will likely decrease as ones career goes on. I will not deny however that an elite degree is probably overrated. Trust that I know about that of which I speak as I was an attending for several years before returning to academia for a fellowship and I was on the job interview circuit again myself not that long ago. The network of the prestige programs is real and can only help you, now and in the future. If you've got "it" all you need is an interview to show it off.
Good luck with your difficult ranking decisions and trust your judgement. Wherever you end up, make the most of your opportunities and be a star and you will succeed.

 

[fakin' the funk]

Isn't that completely against the match process?
I had thought programs in no way could inform applicants where they stand.

Each side can TELL the other anything they want.

Neither side can ASK about where they might be ranked.

 

[DScully]

...coming from New England and now California, I don't know anything about them, as opposed to Mass General, Mayo, Hopkins, or Stanford who's names are known worldwide.

I know it is hard to make any general statement...but would it be reasonable to say the following with what you stated before?

For example -
UCSF and Stanford are known along the east coast (but UCLA or UCSD are not).
MGH/B&W and Hopkins are known along with the west coast (but BID or Columbia are not).

Disclaimer: No offense to anyone, so please don't pick a fight with me...this is just my random guess without any evidence to back any of them up...

 

[Lurch]

Some of my thoughts, with a caveat at the end.

Just as the quality of your undergraduate University and MCAT scores affects the competitiveness of your Medical School application and the quality of your medical school and USMLE scores affects the competitiveness of your residency application, the quality/prestige of your residency training will affect your job search and marketability. Prospective employers want to know that you can handle the workload in their practice and that you will pass your boards on the first attempt, and not become a thorn in their sides down the road. For many reasons it is in your best interest to train at the best program that you can get into. By the best program I mean a program which does very complex cases on a regular basis, easily exceeds all of their numbers and has a reasonably happy and stable resident class. If everyone that you talk to at the interview is unhappy because they are worked to death every day, given infrequent or poor lectures, and/or feel unprepared to handle challenging cases, you too will be miserable and poorly trained and would likely do better at a different (though still strong) program. Even worse would be a program where everyone barely meets their numbers or requires "creative accounting", having to send you to other hospitals for several out rotations, etc. It is one thing to say that the ICU training or pain clinic is weak and send you to another hospital for this small component of your education, it is quite another if many of your cases at your home program are ASA 1 or 2 or outpatient (or ASA 3/4 eyeballs!) and you are going out for hearts and vascular or trauma and peds cases.
However with regards to post residency competitiveness for jobs, if you are certain that you want to live in a particular area of the country you would probably increase your likelihood of finding a job there by attending the best residency program that you could in that region, unless you can match at an elite program with national name recognition. Why? Because your future employers/partners will be personally familiar with graduates of your residency program, if not graduates themselves.
One last caveat- if you are planning to relocate across the country to go to an elite program primarily for the name but intend to relocate again after residency is over, be sure that the program that you think is "elite" is actually NATIONALLY recognized as an elite program and not just regionally recognized as a superior program. It is difficult to come up with a good example but Vanderbilt or UNC may have extraordinary anesthesia programs, but coming from New England and now California, I don't know anything about them, as opposed to Mass General, Mayo, Hopkins, or Stanford who's names are known worldwide.
The fact is that pedigree, and being selected as a Chief Resident, will open doors for you. You will get an interview where others will not. You may not get the job and you almost certainly will not get a better offer, but you will get an interview just because you have Harvard Medical School or a Mass General residency on your CV. This bias will likely decrease as ones career goes on. I will not deny however that an elite degree is probably overrated. Trust that I know about that of which I speak as I was an attending for several years before returning to academia for a fellowship and I was on the job interview circuit again myself not that long ago. The network of the prestige programs is real and can only help you, now and in the future. If you've got "it" all you need is an interview to show it off.
Good luck with your difficult ranking decisions and trust your judgement. Wherever you end up, make the most of your opportunities and be a star and you will succeed.

Thanks for the response. You certainly answered many of the questions I had and seemed to speak to my situation and current concerns.


IlDestriero, you certainly made it clear that attending a top residency program has been very beneficial for your career at multiple levels. Counterintuitively, it has also been mentioned several times on this forum that employers are often jaded when it comes to graduates of these top programs (presumably because of a sense of entitlement which it is perceived the graduates demonstrate). Does this represent an individual bias that has pervaded the forum or the opinion of the majority?

 

[RealBMan]

Here is the dilemma I'm facing. If I know I am eventually going to do private practice, and I do not have an interest in research or academia, how important is it to go to a school with a "big name?" I want to do residency in California to be close to my wife and family again and I don't have a hard on for the big names. I have been to USC and UCLA and I see a significant difference between resident satisfaction in both programs. If I just want to do private practice in the long run, is it worth going to the school that is more well known in research and academia? Does that also mean they have a stronger network in the private practice world as well? If so, then I'll suck it up and do it. But if not, I'd rather be at a program where residents get just as solid clinical training in a less stressful environment and still be able to get the PP jobs they want. IlDestriero, if you don't mind what is your opinion on this?

 

[2win]

Utah has a month of echo which includes TEE and TTE. Most residents do an elective month as well as the required month for a total of 2. Their first year residents learn how to do TTE exams. How many other programs have residents taking (and passing) the TEE boards? If you're looking for echo, you won't get better training than there.

I think that Utah has a great program. What's the Mormons percentage?

 

[geogil]

I think that Utah has a great program. What's the Mormons percentage?

Out of curiosity, why does it matter?

 

[2win]

Out of curiosity, why does it matter?

Because you can calculate your chances to be admitted in that program.
I have mormon friends that weren't admitted there.
If 90% are mormons don't you think that your chances are higher if you are a mormon?
And btw - why did you ask?

 

[IlDestriero]

IlDestriero, you certainly made it that attending a top residency program has been very beneficial for your career at multiple levels. Counterintuitively, it has also been mentioned several times on this forum that employers are often jaded when it comes to graduates of these top programs (presumably because of a sense of entitlement which it is perceived the graduates demonstrate). Does this represent an individual bias that has pervaded the forum or the opinion of the majority?

Here is the dilemma I'm facing. If I know I am eventually going to do private practice, and I do not have an interest in research or academia, how important is it to go to a school with a "big name?" I want to do residency in California to be close to my wife and family again and I don't have a hard on for the big names. I have been to USC and UCLA and I see a significant difference between resident satisfaction in both programs. If I just want to do private practice in the long run, is it worth going to the school that is more well known in research and academia? Does that also mean they have a stronger network in the private practice world as well? If so, then I'll suck it up and do it. But if not, I'd rather be at a program where residents get just as solid clinical training in a less stressful environment and still be able to get the PP jobs they want. IlDestriero, if you don't mind what is your opinion on this?

Lurch, No one has ever said "he trained at Mass General or Harvard, etc. Therefore he must suck, don't bother to interview him." It doesn't happen. There are always going to be people in any program that are weak, just as there are going to be superstars. The most important thing is to be a superstar. If you are better prepared, have a better attitude and work ethic and study daily, you will be a superstar, and you will be a chief resident. I think that is more important than where you train. It means that you are squared away, get the job done and than some and do it better than your peers. If you didn't go to an ivy league med school, it doesn't matter. Be the best and your attendings will notice, your letters of recommendation will be better and you will get your hot job/fellowship interview. That's what it is all about. It is in your best interest to do EVERYTHING in your power to get that foot in the door, so you can show them who you are and what you are bringing to the table. People say that they would rather hire a hard working Joe from a no name program over an elitist tool from Harvard. Me too, but if you graduated with honors from Yale, were a chief from MGH, with a Stanford fellowship and have great recs all saying they would love to hire you, your getting an interview. And if you have a good personality, some reason to want to work here with me, and people like you, you are getting the job. And if you happen to be good old hardworking, need to study harder than everyone else, chief resident Joe from the solid program at Podunk University, if you've got great faculty recommendations, you'll probably get an offer also.
I have no idea what the "sense of entitlement" is all about. I suspect that it is unfounded in medical school graduates and represents the biased opinions of a vocal minority. However, as I said before, there always people below average, lazy slackers, etc. even in the ivy covered walls. They will have the degree, but not the recommendations. They should be easy to weed out. They may be the dunces with the trust funds and a sense of entitlement, but they won't even get the interview. Go where ever you want. Just stand out and you will get the good job, etc. Don't forget that the "elites" usually have a great network, that has real value and can be to your advantage as well. Just something more to consider.
I have some specific thoughts on CA, but they will have to wait.

 

[DScully]

I have some specific thoughts on CA, but they will have to wait.

If you don't mind (and if you also happen to have free time), I'd love to hear what your thoughts on CA. I am debating between east coast and west coast and since you have the experience of moving from one to the other, it'd be nice to hear what your impressions are...

 

[Sparkymd]

If you don't mind (and if you also happen to have free time), I'd love to hear what your thoughts on CA. I am debating between east coast and west coast and since you have the experience of moving from one to the other, it'd be nice to hear what your impressions are...

I agree, totally

 

[deleted50478]

The like problem with California is that it is like totally full of people from California, Brah.

 

[japhy]

Because you can calculate your chances to be admitted in that program.
I have mormon friends that weren't admitted there.
If 90% are mormons don't you think that your chances are higher if you are a mormon?
And btw - why did you ask?

the number of mormons in the med school class is prob 60-70%. for residency, at least anesthesia, its less than 25%.

and i gotta say, its totally faulty logic to assume that if 90% of the class is mormon its easier to get admitted as a mormon.

 

[Sergio99]

This is a previous poster's take on "top programs":

1) Best of the best: JHU, MGH, UCSF

2) Considered to be Elite programs: Alabama, Brigham, Columbia, Duke, Mayo, Michigan, Penn, Stanford, Wake Forest, U. Washington

3) Other excellent academic programs: Beth Israel, Cornell, Dartmouth, MC Wisconsin, Mt. Sinai, Northwestern, Penn State, UC Irvine, UCLA, UCSD, U. Chicago, U. Colorado, U. Florida, U. Iowa, UNC Chapel Hill, U. Pittsburgh, U. Rochester, U. Texas Galveston, Utah, UVA, Vanderbilt, Wash U, Yale

Hello,

First, I don't know how they rank today, but historically Penn, Columbia, Brigham and Stanford have always been considered up on the first group, "Best of the Best."

Second, it is true what some people have said, that most of the programs listed here will give you an excellent training and that it is difficult to choose.

Third, it is not true that the top tier programs are good only for academics. They give you an amazing training in every aspect of anesthesia and medicine. If you have the opportunity to get into one of those programs, it will definitely be worth your while.

 

[Tuohy]

I have heard UCSF is considering laying off faculty members-this is from a friend who looked there for a job.

 

[jjy2103]

i dont understand why one would think that UCLA is not known in east coast....

to me, UCLA is as well known in the east coast as NYU is on the west coast...
i grew up in california and went to college there and I knew what a good program NYU was so I dont see why people from east will not know what a good program UCLA is...

my question is, it seems like the anesthesia top 15 ranking (via NIH or from a PD) is somewhat different than the traditional top 15 ranking of good universities. some overlap (like UCSF, stanford, JH) but some definitely do not...
so i guess what is more relevant when you are interviewing for a private practive job? the reputation acc to anesthesia ranking or general ranking that dominates the perception of the mass?
(i.e. choose winconsin which has great anesthesia ranking but not well known for undergrad ranking OR choose cornell which is "ivy league" but not has highly regarded in anesthesia rank)

and yes i know that ultimately location is going to be a factor but if all else was equal...which would be more beneficial for your job prospects?

 

[studentologist]

i dont understand why one would think that UCLA is not known in east coast....

to me, UCLA is as well known in the east coast as NYU is on the west coast...
i grew up in california and went to college there and I knew what a good program NYU was so I dont see why people from east will not know what a good program UCLA is...

my question is, it seems like the anesthesia top 15 ranking (via NIH or from a PD) is somewhat different than the traditional top 15 ranking of good universities. some overlap (like UCSF, stanford, JH) but some definitely do not...
so i guess what is more relevant when you are interviewing for a private practive job? the reputation acc to anesthesia ranking or general ranking that dominates the perception of the mass?
(i.e. choose winconsin which has great anesthesia ranking but not well known for undergrad ranking OR choose cornell which is "ivy league" but not has highly regarded in anesthesia rank)

and yes i know that ultimately location is going to be a factor but if all else was equal...which would be more beneficial for your job prospects?

I've been wondering the same thing. Are most private practices aware of solid residency programs with and without famous/flashy names? Is it more beneficial to do residency at a famous/flashy name versus a well-known solid program without the flashy name, if you want to end up in private practice?

 

[Robert Loblaw]

I've been wondering the same thing. Are most private practices aware of solid residency programs with and without famous/flashy names? Is it more beneficial to do residency at a famous/flashy name versus a well-known solid program without the flashy name, if you want to end up in private practice?

respectfully, you guys asking this question are all missing the point--that there is an association with flashy names and surgical programs that are high volume, technically complex, and populated by patients who have severe medical comorbidities (essentially all my patients are ASA 3 or 4). as a result, the anesthesia training at flashy name programs tends to be more intense. the cases are roughly the same, but the patients couldn't be more different. this is the difference between "well-known solid" regional programs and nationally renowned "elite" programs.

all other things being equal between programs, i would seriously consider residency class size as very important determinant of the ability to find the private practice job in the area you want after residency. larger programs obviously graduate greater numbers of residents and one can generally link to most of the good regional private practices through this type of larger residency network. we have about 70 residents and i would be willing to bet that I could get in touch with most of the major groups in our tri-state area with only one or two degrees of separation through our alumni network (ex: a ca3 i knew when I was a ca1 knows a ca3 he knew when he was a ca1 who is now a partner at practice x...)

 

[TortuousVein]

People define excellence in different ways and it is not up to me to define what excellence is for you. For me, excellence is going to the program that is going to train you to be the best anesthesiologist you can be, regardless of how hard they make you work, regardless of how crappy a city it is in, regardless of how warm or cold it is, regardless of how your significant other feels about it, and regardless of how miserable you fear you life may be during residency.

I have nothing to add other than... this... is... pretty fantastic. +1000

 

[El Dooderino]

now from an academic standpoint it seems be to MGH, UCSF, BWH, JHU, and Stanford in some order