Top residencies?

[jimbonespod]

For those of you out there that are doing externships or are in a residency i was just wondering if you could list some of the most competitive residencies in podiatry? Im not looking for what you PERSONALLY think is the best. Im asking for example which ones in the nation would be considered the 10 most competitive to get matched with in recent times.

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[PADPM]

Under the PODIATRIC RESIDENTS & PHYSICIANS heading, you will see a thread titled INOVA. If you open that thread and scroll down there are some comments regarding the top residency programs in the country, and this should be a good start to answer your question.

 

[Feli]

This thread is a pretty good summation and has my thoughts on some of the better programs out there...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6091105#post6091105
The Inova thread PADPM mentions is solid also.

Remember, a highly competitive residency does not necessarily equal best training. The two often go hand in hand, but it's not a direct correlation. Not every student wants a ~80hr/wk program when a 60-70hr/wk program will give simlar skills and experience in the end. Competition will be based on number of spots, geographic location/climate, perceived "brand name" value and attending DPM notoriety, etc... as well as training quality. Some of the the MN, WI, and northwest ones are highly competitive since they have few spots. Similarly, some of the Fla, Tex, etc programs are competitive since the weather is nice and many students are from those areas and/or want to practice there. Hospitals which offer core rotations also tend to be more popular since more students rotate through, and hospitals which don't even offer a clerkship rotations are less visible to many students for obvious reasoning.

Some of the mediocre programs in highly desired locations get fiercely competitive. Conversely, some of the high quality programs in less popular locations get under-applied to IMO. Off the top of my head, I'd say it might go something like this:
Top 10 training: Dekalb, Kaiser SF, PSL, DMC, Inova, UPMC, West Houston, Grant, Oakwood, Jewish
Top 10 competitiveness: PSL, Orlando, Kaiser SF, Dekalb, Inova, Swedish, West Penn, Regions, DMC, Westside (FL)

...can't go wrong with any of those, but some just get more/less apps per spot based on how many spots they have, where in the country they are, how much they publish, clerk/core offerings, etc. There are dozens and dozens of high quality pod surg residencies out there these days, and we're fortunate.

After clerkships and visits, you just have to consider what you want from a program, what you are willing to put in, and where you felt you fit in well in terms of attending and resident personalities, program emphasis, hours, etc. I don't really put my own program on these lists since I'm obviously biased, but it's quite solid with high volume and good balance (elective, trauma, diabetic limb, etc)... it was my top choice for reasons stated. GL

 

[jimbonespod]

PADPM-- thanks for your post. i dont know how i missed that one but it def helped


Feli--Thanks for all that info. That really helped out a ton ..........I was just curious about which were the "powerhouse ones" in the field of podiatry. Its nice to see that they are pretty evenly scattered around the country. You brought up some very good points that I am going to have to make sure I take into consideration in the future......after reading these posts it seems like these power ones are very strict with gpa, which stands to reason. with regards to some of the top programs that you listed that werent in bold, would you say that someone in the top fourth of their class has a chance at getting a spot in one of those programs. I guess what Im asking is are these other "popular" but not "powerhouse" programs within reach for someone who is in the top portion of their class but not the top top.

 

[krabmas]

PADPM-- thanks for your post. i dont know how i missed that one but it def helped


Feli--Thanks for all that info. That really helped out a ton ..........I was just curious about which were the "powerhouse ones" in the field of podiatry. Its nice to see that they are pretty evenly scattered around the country. You brought up some very good points that I am going to have to make sure I take into consideration in the future......after reading these posts it seems like these power ones are very strict with gpa, which stands to reason. with regards to some of the top programs that you listed that werent in bold, would you say that someone in the top fourth of their class has a chance at getting a spot in one of those programs. I guess what Im asking is are these other "popular" but not "powerhouse" programs within reach for someone who is in the top portion of their class but not the top top.

If you apply, visit or extern, interview, and rank them - there is a chance to match.

 

[DPMer]

Temple University Hospital, Aria Health, Roxborough Memorial Hospital, Drexel Hill, Bryn Mawr, and Penn Presby in Philly, PA are excellent programs.

 

[singingfootdoc]

although you are correct in saying that those very competitive programs out there...please understand that there are tons not mentioned that are equally as competitive. Also, understand that because there has been a lack of residency programs for many students more and more programs are becoming extremely competitive, especially those near the 8 schools.
You honestly can't rate "top 10"...it's a completely subjective thing. It depends on what YOU like to do and what kind of atmosphere will you benefit from?

 

[UncleMelvin]

Temple University Hospital, Aria Health, Roxborough Memorial Hospital, Drexel Hill, Bryn Mawr, and Penn Presby in Philly, PA are excellent programs.

This is a helpful post. Thank you!

 

[UncleMelvin]

although you are correct in saying that those very competitive programs out there...please understand that there are tons not mentioned that are equally as competitive. Also, understand that because there has been a lack of residency programs for many students more and more programs are becoming extremely competitive, especially those near the 8 schools.
You honestly can't rate "top 10"...it's a completely subjective thing. It depends on what YOU like to do and what kind of atmosphere will you benefit from?

A lot of times it's easy to rate the top programs, but those who did not go to one of those programs can sometimes distract others.

 

[PADPM]

Temple University Hospital, Aria Health, Roxborough Memorial Hospital, Drexel Hill, Bryn Mawr, and Penn Presby in Philly, PA are excellent programs.

Let me guess.....you must also be a Phillies fan, a Flyers fan, an Eagles fan... and get order your cheesesteak "wit". (only those from Philly would understand)

The programs you've mentioned all differ significantly and I personally know a few of the directors from my years serving in the ABPS. If I had to "rank" the programs based on the quality of the director, the podiatric surgical staff, diversity of cases, rotations, etc., I would rank them as follows;

1) Penn Presby ( I'm a HUGE fan of Michael Downey....they don't get much better than Mike)

2) Temple/Aria is a close call. Temple hasn't been exactly "friendly" to it's podiatric residents and has shipped them out to other hospitals. They had been working at Northeastern, a Temple affiliate, but Northeastern closed. Now I believe some of that staff shifted over to Aria and some went to Jeanes (another Temple affiliate, though Aria is NOT). I know some of the Temple residents have been rotating at Aria but I believe they MAY only be scrubbing with the former Temple DPM's, since Aria already has it's own podiatric residents and they don't want to dilute their numbers. I don't believe they've rotated through Jeanes, but I heard chatter that they may and I think I know some of the guys on staff and there are some decent guys.

Justin Fleming isn't the director at Aria, but he's an Atlanta trained guy and a great guy who works in an orthopedic group. Doesn't do a whole lot of bunions, etc., but does a ton of trauma, injuries, rearfoot and ankle. Good guy, nice guy, good surgeon, good teacher.

Temple and Aria are a toss up.

3) Roxborough--The residency director can be a little "bold" and may take some chances or perform some procedures a little out of the box.

4) Bryn Mawr--The residency director isn't as "high powered" as the programs above, and the best members of the staff are the docs that unfortunately do the fewest cases at this hospital.

5) Drexel Hill- Don't know anything about this program.

Most of my comments are based on my knowledge of the residency directors, my opinion based on looking over the staff and comments from colleagues I respect who are on staff at these hospitals and/or practice in Philly or the area.

 

[Feli]

...You honestly can't rate "top 10"...it's a completely subjective thing...

Well, some programs do have a pretty rock solid history of creating successful alumni. Others do not; some unfortunately have a history of grads failing ABPS boards, struggling in practice, etc.

Yes, part of that alumni success or failure just means the program consistently picked very bright and hardworking individuals who would've gotten the most out of any training... or took whatever scramblers they could find. However, the historical grad sink/swim record also says a lot about the case volume, director and faculty teaching, outside rotations, etc that the program provides. JMO.

I honestly think the best way to eval a program is to see what the attendings who graduated 3,5,10, etc yrs prior are doing. Are they cert for and doing RRA cases? Are they doing well financially? Are they just cracking nails and doing hammertoes?

However, you need to also realize if and how much the program has changed since they graduated. CPME/APMA is putting a lot of pressure on good programs to water down their program by taking more residents (therefore less cases/resident). Also, the gain/loss of a key directory or faculty members can have a huge effect on a program's overal quality.

 

[PADPM]

Excellent post Feli. There's a local hospital that has residents and I don't consider it a quality program.

I don't think much of the residency director, because in my opinion he'd perform an unnecessary procedure on his mother if he knew he'd get paid well for the procedure. The staff doesn't have what I'd consider a lot of quality attendings, and many are graduates of the program. On the rare instance I perform a case there, I'm not impressed by the skill or the knowledge of the residents.

And as per your post, two of the residents that graduated this year just failed their boards. In my opinion, this is when you should be at the top of your game academically (after completing your residency) and failing the written exam to me is indicative of their training.

There are certainly some excellent programs that are not in the spotlight, but there are also some pretty weak programs that are handing out pieces of paper that have some AWFUL directors. I can actually name a few programs where the director is not even ABPS certified (they waived that requirement a few years ago) which I believe is ludicrous.

 

[Podfather]

Well, some programs do have a pretty rock solid history of creating successful alumni. Others do not; some unfortunately have a history of grads failing ABPS boards, struggling in practice, etc.

Yes, part of that alumni success or failure just means the program consistently picked very bright and hardworking individuals who would've gotten the most out of any training... or took whatever scramblers they could find. However, the historical grad sink/swim record also says a lot about the case volume, director and faculty teaching, outside rotations, etc that the program provides. JMO.

I honestly think the best way to eval a program is to see what the attendings who graduated 3,5,10, etc yrs prior are doing. Are they cert for and doing RRA cases? Are they doing well financially? Are they just cracking nails and doing hammertoes?

However, you need to also realize if and how much the program has changed since they graduated. CPME/APMA is putting a lot of pressure on good programs to water down their program by taking more residents (therefore less cases/resident). Also, the gain/loss of a key directory or faculty members can have a huge effect on a program's overal quality.

Every residency has probably produced success stories and failures. Big names or not. But consistent production of leaders in the field, success in practice, passing the boards, and diversity in practice type all mean that their system is working. Our program has produced many leaders, successful DPMs, and matched their grads with great jobs. But we have also turned out some bad surgeons as well. How does that happens? Well IMO sometimes the resident doesn't match the training style or the program is a sleeper and it gets both super students and marginal. BTW some of the marginal have excelled.

I would suggest you look at the ABPS committees, ACFAS speaker lists, State and APMA officers and look where these younger leaders have trained. Read the literature and query the chief residents how the alumni are doing. Our program does not have an externship so is oftened overlooked by students yet excels in the criteria mentioned above. Some of the name programs do more to support the faculty than the residents.

In the end you have to decide where you will be happy, the type of training you want and what are your goals professionally.

 

[Feli]

...staff doesn't have what I'd consider a lot of quality attendings...

This is what it comes down to IMO.^^
It doesn't just mean gifted surgeons in terms of hand skills or attendings who will be a big name on your CV or helpful phone call when you go job hunting, though. It's equally as helpful to have attendings who will talk you through their rationale for picking the procedure you're about to scrub on, tell you how they averted disaster when complications showed up, or explain to you how they will code the surgery you just assisted on.

Presby was my last externship. After a long day in the OR, I was asked by one of the chiefs, "so, how have your other clerkships been... were the attendings interested in teaching?" I didn't even have to think about it much, and I answered, "yah, of course," as I headed for much needed food+caffeine before going home to read, sleep a bit, and do it all again in a few hours.

Driving home, it sorta dawned on me a that it was definitely not such a no-brainer of a question. I just happened to have clerked at the hospitals where Alan Banks, John Ruch, Tom Brosky, Mike McGlamry, David Alder, Stuart Wertheimer, Paul DiLiddo, Mark Squire, Zee Husain, Larry Fallat, Alan Catz, Bob Mendicino, Ken Saltrick, Mike Downey, Scot Malay, etc worked. Those were guys who had basically no problem getting up at 6am to do journal club or staying until 6pm to discuss cases or Xrays with their residents and visiting students. That was time they could've spent sleeping in, seeing more patients, or doing who knows what... but they came in to help the program. It was just what they liked to do - even after years or even decades: they simply enjoyed teaching.

When I got back to school, I heard some of my classmates talking about their wasted month rotations with boring office all week, a bit of wound care, and maybe a couple bunions or hammertoes on Th and Fri. I thought back to the complex recon, high level med mgmt, and great academics I'd had on all of my away months.

 

[FootDocStudent]

Let me guess.....you must also be a Phillies fan, a Flyers fan, an Eagles fan... and get order your cheesesteak "wit". (only those from Philly would understand)

The programs you've mentioned all differ significantly and I personally know a few of the directors from my years serving in the ABPS. If I had to "rank" the programs based on the quality of the director, the podiatric surgical staff, diversity of cases, rotations, etc., I would rank them as follows;

1) Penn Presby ( I'm a HUGE fan of Michael Downey....they don't get much better than Mike)

2) Temple/Aria is a close call. Temple hasn't been exactly "friendly" to it's podiatric residents and has shipped them out to other hospitals. They had been working at Northeastern, a Temple affiliate, but Northeastern closed. Now I believe some of that staff shifted over to Aria and some went to Jeanes (another Temple affiliate, though Aria is NOT). I know some of the Temple residents have been rotating at Aria but I believe they MAY only be scrubbing with the former Temple DPM's, since Aria already has it's own podiatric residents and they don't want to dilute their numbers. I don't believe they've rotated through Jeanes, but I heard chatter that they may and I think I know some of the guys on staff and there are some decent guys.

Justin Fleming isn't the director at Aria, but he's an Atlanta trained guy and a great guy who works in an orthopedic group. Doesn't do a whole lot of bunions, etc., but does a ton of trauma, injuries, rearfoot and ankle. Good guy, nice guy, good surgeon, good teacher.

Temple and Aria are a toss up.

3) Roxborough--The residency director can be a little "bold" and may take some chances or perform some procedures a little out of the box.

4) Bryn Mawr--The residency director isn't as "high powered" as the programs above, and the best members of the staff are the docs that unfortunately do the fewest cases at this hospital.

5) Drexel Hill- Don't know anything about this program.

Most of my comments are based on my knowledge of the residency directors, my opinion based on looking over the staff and comments from colleagues I respect who are on staff at these hospitals and/or practice in Philly or the area.

Philly also has Albert Einstein Medical Center and the VA-Philadelphia, both 2 year programs and thus forefoot/dig-met surgeries cases only, especially lots and lots of bunion, Tailor's bunion, and hammertoe cases in the OR. A total of 8 podiatry residency programs in Philly to extern and match with during 4th year, if you like Philly.

 

[FootDocStudent]

Programs in the Delaware Valley area are good, meaning Philadelphia and South Jersey across the Delaware River:

In Philadelphia area:

1. Penn Presby (4 year program)
2. Aria Health (3 years)
3. Temple University Hospital (4 years)
4. Drexel Hill (3 years)
5. Roxborough Memorial Hospital (3 years)
6. St Josephs (2 year program)
7. VA-Philadelphia (2 years)
8. Albert Einstein Medical Center (2 years)
9. Bryn Myr (3 years)
10. Hanhnemann University Hospital (3 years)
11. Crozer (3 years)

In South Jersey area:

1. Virtua (3 year program)
2. Cooper University Hospital (2 year program)
3. Kennedy (2 years)
4. South Jersey Health Care (3 years)

So, there are a total of 14 podiatry residency programs to apply to through CASPR if you love the Delaware Valley area.

 

[PADPM]

For those of you interested in the Philly area, I can tell you as a matter of FACT, you will not obtain any quality training at St. Joseph's in Philly. The residency director isn't even board certified and friends/colleagues of mine that practice in the area tell me horror stories about some of the results regularly.

Although there are a lot of residencies that I would say aren't top notch, I would say this one is one to stay away from. If you judge a program from attendings/academics, etc., forget about this one.

I've interviewed several of the grads....no way.

 

[Torovador]

...

 

[sinustarsi]

How is Crozer in philly? How is the training/hrs etc?