Top student wants to know what the disadvantages are to applying without an MCAT score.

[Gauss44]

Top student, near 4.0, nearly perfect EC's/work experience/volunteer jobs, sophomore level wants to know what the disadvantages are to applying in June after her junior year without an MCAT score. If she does that, will she be at any disadvantage compared to other top students who apply with an MCAT score at exactly the same time?

(I read previous threads and none of them seem to fit. Previous threads are all about people who are stuck applying without an MCAT score, rather than having the option of doing that, students with less superior stats, etc. I wonder if a little factor like this could potentially make the difference of her getting a merit scholarship, accepted at a top school, or have any impact on anything?)

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[efle]

Nearly all schools require the MCAT, said student will not even receive any interview invites until they get a score. It isn't an option for anyone to apply without an MCAT score.

 

[mehc012]

Top student, near 4.0, nearly perfect EC's/work experience/volunteer jobs, sophomore level wants to know what the disadvantages are to applying in June after her junior year without an MCAT score. If she does that, will she be at any disadvantage compared to other top students who apply with an MCAT score at exactly the same time?

(I read previous threads and none of them seem to fit. Previous threads are all about people who are stuck applying without an MCAT score, rather than having the option of doing that, students with less superior stats, etc. I wonder if a little factor like this could potentially make the difference of her getting a merit scholarship, accepted at a top school, or have any impact on anything?)

• The disadvantage of applying without an MCAT score is that your app will be thrown in the trash without even being reviewed.
• Yes, this would be considered a disadvantage compared to top applicants. The top students have LizzyM scores 70+. Your friend would have <40, which is probably lower than the average Caribbean stat.
• The reason there have not been threads on this is because nobody has the option of applying without an MCAT score aside from BS/MD programs and perhaps some of the special humanities student recruiting programs like FlexMed.
• Your friend does not have superior stats. She has a superior stat, and then the worst stat ever. Plus, arrogance much?
• Your friend will not get a merit scholarship, because she won't get in.
• It's not a little factor.
• She won't get into a top school. Or a middle school. Or the worst medical school in the country.
• I would consider that 'any impact on anything.'

Well that was a fun thought exercise. Thanks for always being entertaining!
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know. "Don't feed the trolls." But I felt like responding and it legit made me chuckle, so why not?

 

[Lucca]

• The disadvantage of applying without an MCAT score is that your app will be thrown in the trash without even being reviewed.
• Yes, this would be considered a disadvantage compared to top applicants. The top students have LizzyM scores 70+. Your friend would have <40, which is probably lower than the average Caribbean stat.
• The reason there have not been threads on this is because nobody has the option of applying without an MCAT score aside from BS/MD programs and perhaps some of the special humanities student recruiting programs like FlexMed.
• Your friend does not have superior stats. She has a superior stat, and then the worst stat ever. Plus, arrogance much?
• Your friend will not get a merit scholarship, because she won't get in.
• It's not a little factor.
• She won't get into a top school. Or a middle school. Or the worst medical school in the country.
• I would consider that 'any impact on anything.'

Well that was a fun thought exercise. Thanks for always being entertaining!
Yeah, yeah, yeah...I know. "Don't feed the trolls." But I felt like responding and it legit made me chuckle, so why not?

To be fair, her LizzyM would be about a 39-40 if her GPA is "near 4.0". This is still sub-Carib (lol at that phrase) though.

 

[efle]

Related:

Top student, #1 at their high school, wonders how much it will hurt their application to just take the MCAT and skip the college coursework? Like just take 3-4 years off but then get a near 40? Would they hurt their chance of a full ride to Hopkins compared to the people who did go to college?

 

[sunflower18]

Top student, near 4.0, nearly perfect EC's/work experience/volunteer jobs, sophomore level wants to know what the disadvantages are to applying in June after her junior year without an MCAT score. If she does that, will she be at any disadvantage compared to other top students who apply with an MCAT score at exactly the same time?

(I read previous threads and none of them seem to fit. Previous threads are all about people who are stuck applying without an MCAT score, rather than having the option of doing that, students with less superior stats, etc. I wonder if a little factor like this could potentially make the difference of her getting a merit scholarship, accepted at a top school, or have any impact on anything?)

Do you mean that your friend is not taking the MCAT period, or that she will have taken it without her score coming in yet by the time she submits her application? If the former, zero chance. If the latter, that is fine as long as the score doesn't come in too late. The earlier the better.

 

[efle]

Do you mean that your friend is not taking the MCAT period, or that she will have taken it without her score coming in yet by the time she submits her application? If the former, zero chance. If the latter, that is fine as long as the score doesn't come in too late. The earlier the better.

Jeez, applying without knowing your score must take some major cojones

 

[sunflower18]

Jeez, applying without knowing your score must take some major cojones

Better than applying without the MCAT at all!!

I've heard of some people listing just one school on their primary, submitting it and getting it verified, and then adding the rest of their schools once they receive their scores. This way their app is all ready to go by the time their scores come in instead of being put at the back of the verification line. Still gutsy, though!

 

[CrimsonKing]

Can't call yourself a "top student" in the context of medical school application without an MCAT score. Period.

 

[efle]

Can't call yourself a "top student" in the context of medical school application without an MCAT score. Period.

Hey man, around here we pretend all schools offer coursework of such high quality and rigor that a near 4.0 predicts a 36+ easy peasy

 

[LizzyM]

Once upon a time, when LizzyM was young and the MCAT was given only administered on one day in April and one day in August, it was not unheard of for rising college seniors to submit their application before taking the August MCAT. It was not optimal because the application would not be complete until October but it was done.

Obviously, it puts one at a disadvantage in getting interview invites as many dates have come and gone before your application even hits someone's desk. It shouldn't have any impact on whether someone gets merit aid (which is relatively rare itself but not improbable from some schools if the applicant has an MCAT at the 99th percentile or better to go with that 4.0). If a top school is impressed enough it will give her the very last interview invite of the season over every other applicant in the pool. Someone is that lucky "last one" every year at every school. It could be her.

 

[Gauss44]

Once upon a time, when LizzyM was young and the MCAT was given only administered on one day in April and one day in August, it was not unheard of for rising college seniors to submit their application before taking the August MCAT. It was not optimal because the application would not be complete until October but it was done.

Obviously, it puts one at a disadvantage in getting interview invites as many dates have come and gone before your application even hits someone's desk. It shouldn't have any impact on whether someone gets merit aid (which is relatively rare itself but not improbable from some schools if the applicant has an MCAT at the 99th percentile or better to go with that 4.0). If a top school is impressed enough it will give her the very last interview invite of the season over every other applicant in the pool. Someone is that lucky "last one" every year at every school. It could be her.

Wow, this sounds severe. I'll have to tell my student not to even consider sending in AMCAS without an MCAT score. I would have never guessed that applying without an MCAT score was such a bad idea based on previous threads and on AAMC's information (because in AAMC's statement about applying without an MCAT score, there's no mention of adverse consequences like missing out on interviews)

Glad I asked!!! Thanks for the information.

Links to a couple things I previously looked at below..

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/applying-without-mcat-scores.713893/

https://www.aamc.org/students/apply...amcas_application_without_my_mcat_scores.html "Yes, AMCAS will verify and process your application without your MCAT scores. Once the scores are made available, AMCAS will upload your scores automatically into the application. If your application has already completed verification, AMCAS will send updates to the medical schools indicated in your application informing them of the update."

 

[LizzyM]

A school will not invite you for interview until it reviews your application. A school will not review your application until it is complete. Your application is not complete until your MCAT scores are recorded.

How is it harsh for other applicants to get interview invites in September and October if your application is not complete until October 15th (or whatever date your scores are transmitted to the schools)? Would you expect no interview invitations to be issued until every application has been reviewed? If that were the case, we wouldn't be making invitations until the first of the year!

 

[cactus8910]

Wow, this sounds severe. I'll have to tell my student not to even consider sending in AMCAS without an MCAT score. I would have never guessed that applying without an MCAT score was such a bad idea based on previous threads and on AAMC's information (because in AAMC's statement about applying without an MCAT score, there's no mention of adverse consequences like missing out on interviews)

Glad I asked!!! Thanks for the information.

Links to a couple things I previously looked at below..

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/applying-without-mcat-scores.713893/

https://www.aamc.org/students/apply...amcas_application_without_my_mcat_scores.html "Yes, AMCAS will verify and process your application without your MCAT scores. Once the scores are made available, AMCAS will upload your scores automatically into the application. If your application has already completed verification, AMCAS will send updates to the medical schools indicated in your application informing them of the update."

You made it sounds as if the student wasn't planning on taking the MCAT at all. It is certainly possible to submit primary and even secondary applications before the MCAT score is in. However, most schools won't actually look at the application until it is complete. The earlier an applicant is complete, the better shot they have at interviews and acceptances, but if the MCAT score comes out in June or July (or even early August), it shouldn't disadvantage the candidate too much.

When would this student be taking the MCAT if they do submit without the score?

 

[jl lin]

Auto-reject. That's what the schools want and need in order to put you into the evaluation process. The world doesn't change b/c of what we wish. Accept it and do your best to do well on it--whatever that may require from you. You know, short of something weird or illegal.

 

[mehc012]

Wow, this sounds severe. I'll have to tell my student not to even consider sending in AMCAS without an MCAT score. I would have never guessed that applying without an MCAT score was such a bad idea based on previous threads and on AAMC's information (because in AAMC's statement about applying without an MCAT score, there's no mention of adverse consequences like missing out on interviews)

Glad I asked!!! Thanks for the information.

Links to a couple things I previously looked at below..

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/applying-without-mcat-scores.713893/

https://www.aamc.org/students/apply...amcas_application_without_my_mcat_scores.html "Yes, AMCAS will verify and process your application without your MCAT scores. Once the scores are made available, AMCAS will upload your scores automatically into the application. If your application has already completed verification, AMCAS will send updates to the medical schools indicated in your application informing them of the update."

Yeah, if you meant "submitting before the MCAT score is back" that's a totally different ballgame.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Hey man, around here we pretend all schools offer coursework of such high quality and rigor that a near 4.0 predicts a 36+ easy peasy

 

[efle]

Exactly what I said, crimsonking said wait for the MCAT to call yourself a top student, but everybody I know with a near-4.0 absolutely stomped the MCAT so they should expect at least a 36

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Exactly what I said, crimsonking said wait for the MCAT to call yourself a top student, but everybody I know with a near-4.0 absolutely stomped the MCAT so they should expect at least a 36

So then you must know a sizable sample of med school applicants with a near-4.0...

I guess you were being facetious. You're fully aware that a 3.8+ doesn't predict a 36+ for most people.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

So then you must know a sizable sample of med school applicants with a near-4.0...

I guess you were being facetious. You're fully aware that a 3.8+ doesn't predict a 36+ for most people.

Your GPA and MCAT reflect different aspects of your academic aptitude.

 

[justadream]

GPA usually means very little without MCAT. However, if this is someone with 4.0 double major EE/Math at MIT, I'd be impressed.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Your GPA and MCAT reflect different aspects of your academic aptitude.

I think @efle wanted to start one of his favorite arguments with his earlier comment... I'm not sure why though.

 

[efle]

Yeah I was being facetious, there are many fold more 3.8-4.0s than top percentile MCATs. But I did see goro recently say that community college rigor = ivy rigor so maybe you can call yourself a top student just by GPA, I know I'd consider someone with a 4.0 at an ivy to be a top student even before hearing their MCAT

 

[mehc012]

Your GPA and MCAT reflect different aspects of your academic aptitude.

Let's just leave it at this:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf

So, more 3.8-4.0 students scored in the 27-29 range than the entire 36-45 range combined.
Less than 15% of near-4.0 students score in the 36+ range.

I think @efle wanted to start one of his favorite arguments with his earlier comment... I'm not sure why though.

There's no debate to be had. AAMC statistics tell the real story.

 

[mehc012]

Yeah I was being facetious, there are many fold more 3.8-4.0s than top percentile MCATs. But I did see goro recently say that community college rigor = ivy rigor so maybe you can call yourself a top student just by GPA, I know I'd consider someone with a 4.0 at an ivy to be a top student even before hearing their MCAT

Ah, sorry, hadn't seen this reply before I posted.

 

[Goro]

Reading comprehension is an important skill. I never wrote what you garbled above. I wrote that some CC coursework can be the equivalent of some UG schools. Some CCs are the equivalent of the 13th grade too, like Ivy Tech. And some Ivy's give you a B for the course merely by showing up and breathing.

Yeah I was being facetious, there are many fold more 3.8-4.0s than top percentile MCATs. But I did see goro recently say that community college rigor = ivy rigor so maybe you can call yourself a top student just by GPA, I know I'd consider someone with a 4.0 at an ivy to be a top student even before hearing their MCAT

 

[efle]

In my defense, when someone asked you "Do med schools consider the rigor of the school as well as its grading policies when looking at its applicants' GPAs?"

You replied, "To me, an A is an A whether you're at Harvard or Kutztown State."

My mistake it was Kutztown in your example though, not a CC

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

In my defense, when someone asked you "Do med schools consider the rigor of the school as well as its grading policies when looking at its applicants' GPAs?"

You replied, "To me, an A is an A whether you're at Harvard or Kutztown State."

My mistake it was Kutztown in your example though, not a CC

I think Goro was basically saying that an A is an A, even if it comes from a lesser known school. Also it's wrong to assume that Kutztown State is a cakewalk. But regardless, as noted in this thread, everyone has to take the MCAT

 

[maccu5000]

The disadvantage is that you doesn't know yet which schools to apply to. Assuming you're waiting for a score, then submit to your state school early and get verified, then add all others as appropriate when you get your score back (using the MSAR and personal factors to select).

 

[Gauss44]

It's disappointing that this thread is going off topic. Off topic threads make for a very tedious inefficient search for information.

 

[Gauss44]

Yeah, if you meant "submitting before the MCAT score is back" that's a totally different ballgame.

Why?

 

[efle]

I think Goro was basically saying that an A is an A, even if it comes from a lesser known school. Also it's wrong to assume that Kutztown State is a cakewalk. But regardless, as noted in this thread, everyone has to take the MCAT

Oh no argument there, I just wanted to point out that even someone with reasonable reading comp would probably read Goro's statements and conclude he views all GPAs as earned with equal quality and rigor

 

[efle]

It's disappointing that this thread is going off topic. Off topic threads make for a very tedious inefficient search for information.

Well the question was answered immediately, "you need an MCAT score, period". Hope I saved you some time!

 

[milski]

Why?

a) Submit AMCAS application with MCAT results pending.
b) Submit AMCAS application and never submit MCAT results.

Do you seriously need an explanation why the two are significantly different?

 

[WingedOx]

Oh no argument there, I just wanted to point out that even someone with reasonable reading comp would probably read Goro's statements and conclude he views all GPAs as earned with equal quality and rigor

why exactly do you get so defensive over this?

 

[maccu5000]

Why?

Your post is being interpreted in two ways:
1. this top student will never take the MCAT<--in this case, this person will never get admitted
2. this top student is waiting for their MCAT<--in this case, the only disadvantage is not knowing which school to apply to, and having to wait for their app to be complete at these schools

 

[Gauss44]

You made it sounds as if the student wasn't planning on taking the MCAT at all. It is certainly possible to submit primary and even secondary applications before the MCAT score is in. However, most schools won't actually look at the application until it is complete. The earlier an applicant is complete, the better shot they have at interviews and acceptances, but if the MCAT score comes out in June or July (or even early August), it shouldn't disadvantage the candidate too much.

When would this student be taking the MCAT if they do submit without the score?

Thanks for pointing out the ambiguity in my original post. I definitely didn't mean to sound like the student isn't taking it at all! The student is actually thinking that she has to take it before the summer after her junior year in order to avoid a gap year and to go directly to medical school out of college. If she does that, she will be at a disadvantage because she will be taking classes in the fall, winter, and spring. (Taking the MCAT while taking classes can be very busy.) By "top student" I mean that everything she's done so far has been top notch. She has a lot of potential and I don't want to see it blown by a scheduling mistake. That's her situation.

If she were to apply on June 1st after her junior year and take the MCAT in August after her junior year, would that put her at a disadvantage? How so and how much of a disadvantage?

 

[publichealthguy]

Let's just leave it at this:
View attachment 188473
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf

So, more 3.8-4.0 students scored in the 27-29 range than the entire 36-45 range combined.
Less than 15% of near-4.0 students score in the 36+ range.

There's no debate to be had. AAMC statistics tell the real story.

I'm most amazed by the fact that ~6.4% of 3.8+/39+ applicants and ~9.5% of 3.8+/36+ applicants don't bag any acceptances. I guess stats actually aren't everything.

 

[Catalystik]

If she were to apply on June 1st after her junior year and take the MCAT in August after her junior year, would that put her at a disadvantage? How so and how much of a disadvantage?

She would be delaying consideration of her file until September, plus the time it takes to return all Secondaries and supplemental requirements. Yes, this would put her at a disadvantage. How much depends on the strength of her application and the selectivity of the schools to which she applies.

 

[Gauss44]

A school will not invite you for interview until it reviews your application. A school will not review your application until it is complete. Your application is not complete until your MCAT scores are recorded.

How is it harsh for other applicants to get interview invites in September and October if your application is not complete until October 15th (or whatever date your scores are transmitted to the schools)? Would you expect no interview invitations to be issued until every application has been reviewed? If that were the case, we wouldn't be making invitations until the first of the year!

The word I used was "severe" primarily in a relativistic way because at least I've heard so many people, and entities like the AAMC, talking about taking the MCAT in the summer after one's junior year like it's the most common inconsequential thing to do. And there's such a contrast between that and what the first dozen or so replies suggest. (Part of that might be based on a misunderstanding which was just addressed in a reply.)

I guess the question in my mind now is, "Until what point after June 1st, would it usually be of little or no consequence for a top student* to not have their MCAT score in?"

*Meaning "top" in all ways possible so far.

 

[Catalystik]

"Until what point after June 1st, would it usually be of little or no consequence for a top student* to not have their MCAT score in?"

Sometime between the last week of June (which is the earliest that AMCAS sends out any of the verified, complete applications) until perhaps the first day of August at schools with Early Decision Programs, since regular applications might not be much looked at until after that. Opinions may vary.

 

[efle]

why exactly do you get so defensive over this?

Had a few best friends make the difficult decision to drop premed because they had trouble scoring above-average while being curved against top percentile students. Combine that with the absolutely massive disparity in difficulty I saw (and have frequently heard from others) when taking coursework at a midlevel state school back home, the idea that GPAs should be viewed similarly regardless of undergrad seems ridiculous. It screws over a lot of hard working and brilliant students who end up with tons of B-'s and a non or borderline competitive sGPA because of the student body they're pitted against.

Plus, there is so much data to point out how stupid that assumption is. If you believe the MCAT really is an equalizer, look at this:

Among people with GPA 3.8-4.0, AMCAS says 16% made a 36+ MCAT. At WUSTL it's just over half. AMCAS says 37% made 33+. At WUSTL 87% did.

Among people with 3.0-3.2 at WUSTL, 68% made a 30+;
Among all people with a 3.8-4.0, 64% made a 30+.

So that's my problem with it, a body of people who appear (via the Equalizer) to be at a 3.8-4.0 level nationally end up 3.0-3.2 where they are, and pretty generally there is a clear difference in what ability level the GPA represents (again assuming you use the MCAT to compare) between a population at a top school vs the national average. Of course there are lots of exceptions like extreme inflaters and deflaters different majors blah blah

Anyways I'm not personally defensive about it, I think my GPA+MCAT is probably the strongest part of my app. I just feel compelled to combat the idea that GPA parity makes any freaking sense

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Had a few best friends make the difficult decision to drop premed because they had trouble scoring above-average while being curved against top percentile students. Combine that with the absolutely massive disparity in difficulty I saw (and have frequently heard from others) when taking coursework at a midlevel state school back home, the idea that GPAs should be viewed similarly regardless of undergrad seems ridiculous. It screws over a lot of hard working and brilliant students who end up with tons of B-'s and a non or borderline competitive sGPA because of the student body they're pitted against.

Plus, there is so much data to point out how stupid that assumption is. If you believe the MCAT really is an equalizer, look at this:

Among people with GPA 3.8-4.0, AMCAS says 16% made a 36+ MCAT. At WUSTL it's just over half. AMCAS says 37% made 33+. At WUSTL 87% did.

Among people with 3.0-3.2 at WUSTL, 68% made a 30+;
Among all people with a 3.8-4.0, 64% made a 30+.

So that's my problem with it, a body of people who appear (via the Equalizer) to be at a 3.8-4.0 level nationally end up 3.0-3.2 where they are, and pretty generally there is a clear difference in what ability level the GPA represents (again assuming you use the MCAT to compare) between a population at a top school vs the national average. Of course there are lots of exceptions like extreme inflaters and deflaters different majors blah blah

Anyways I'm not personally defensive about it, I think my GPA+MCAT is probably the strongest part of my app. I just feel compelled to combat the idea that GPA parity makes any freaking sense

I agree with a lot of your points, however, this isn't a "top schools vs lower ranked schools" discussion. The appropriate paradigm is "schools who punish pre-meds vs schools who do not." Wash U is clearly harming its students with insane coursework and other top schools (ie Stanford and Brown) are more student-friendly. Why doesn't Wash U follow their example?

 

[efle]

I agree with a lot of your points, however, this isn't a "top schools vs lower ranked schools" discussion. The appropriate paradigm is "schools who punish pre-meds vs schools who do not." Wash U is clearly harming its students with insane coursework and other top schools (ie Stanford and Brown) are more student-friendly. Why doesn't Wash U follow their example?

By student friendly do you mean grade-inflating? As long as the coursework is curved to the same B or B- median and the student bodies comparable, I'm sure it's just as tough to hack it as a premed, though I don't know how their attrition rate compares to ours of about 2/3rds

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

By student friendly do you mean grade-inflating? As long as the coursework is curved to the same B or B- median and the student bodies comparable, I'm sure it's just as tough to hack it as a premed, though I don't know how their attrition rate compares to ours of about 2/3rds

I don't like to use the term "grade inflation" when referring to highly ranked undergrads (although I may have done it in prior discussions). I'm assuming that students at Stanford, Duke, and Brown have to work for their As. And those who do pull off a solid pre-med gpa at those schools are adequately prepared for med school. It's likely that grade inflation is attributed to those institutions when compared to Princeton, MIT, Wash U, Chicago, etc.

I still don't get why your school weeds out qualified students. That's freaking cruel. If anything, they should aim to produce more successful pre-meds.

 

[WingedOx]

I agree with a lot of your points, however, this isn't a "top schools vs lower ranked schools" discussion. The appropriate paradigm is "schools who punish pre-meds vs schools who do not." Wash U is clearly harming its students with insane coursework and other top schools (ie Stanford and Brown) are more student-friendly. Why doesn't Wash U follow their example?

Yeah, I think Cyberdyne more or less typed my response for me. A school's ranking/prestige (which tends to mostly be a correlate of selectivity) operates on a totally different axis than a school's grading rigor.

Efle's post actually has quite a bit of truth to it, unfortunately. Sadly though, the usual posts on this topic sounds like "Well I'm struggling, but only because I'm at a TOP SCHOOL! Kids who I did better than in high school are doing better than me, so clearly it's because of my school's difficulty and not because this isn't high school anymore!"

I wouldn't call the lack of a harsh curve "grade inflation" either. It may have been 10 years ago, but my O-chem section had about 100 students, only 3 scores As and there was no curve. We were about as mid-tier as you get (hard to be selective/get good USNews rankings when you're in a ****ty location and have a more prestigious school right down the road) but the science program there was insanely good. Having major industrial corporations nearby whose foundations want to put their names on buildings will do that. We also sent a proportionally high number of students to med school for the size of the school.

I get where you're coming from @efle but to say that "top school = rigor" is probably simplistic.

 

[WingedOx]

btw, does anyone else hate the term "top student" as much as I do?

 

[Ace Khalifa]

WUSTL doesn't care that most students who start out premed don't end up staying premed by application time. There is no incentive for them to increase the number of students who are ready to apply to medical school every year. I don't forsee WUSTL addressing this disparity anytime soon, for they have much bigger issues to handle right now (i.e. lackluster response to the issues of racism/diversity on campus). If you're able to survive the premed onslaught of curved exams and weed-out courses by the end of junior year/senior year, good job. If not, that's too bad; I've seen friends quit premed early and late because of low grades but there's nothing you can do about it.

The data that @efle somehow had access to shows that WUSTL does prepare its students for the MCAT very well. While one's grades in the premed courses may not have been that high, the rigor of the courses and the concepts/skills learned in those courses does help one get used to the kind of critical thinking that the MCAT is designed for. Conversely, the common phenomenon of state school students having high GPAs but low MCATs (i.e. 3.9/27) shows evidence that state school (and other "lower ranked" schools) probably don't prepare their students for the MCAT as well as WUSTL does. I see it as a difficult decision. Attend WUSTL/similar difficult school for potentially lower grades but better MCAT prep? Or attend lower ranked school for higher grades but potentially worse MCAT prep?

Obviously, one should strive to succeed academically no matter what school they attend AND score well on the MCAT. I'm grateful that I pulled a decent GPA coming out of WUSTL and a stellar MCAT score, but I know many people who would love to be in my place right now. To answer @Cyberdyne 101's question, I'm not sure if WUSTL purposely weeds out students; it just happens naturally since our intro level science courses are all extremely difficult. Just think of this analogy: exams have questions that are like bricks, walls, or houses. Bricks = basic recall questions/simple calcs. Walls = problems that need more conceptual integration but are fairly simple once you figure out the process. Houses = extremely difficult questions that really test your understanding of multiple concepts and have never been seen before. WUSTL science exams probably have more walls and houses than exams at lower ranked places, which is why people get weeded out.

I understand efle's frustration because I know it's tough to see your friends not succeed. However, the system is not as forgiving, and that's something we all need to be aware of. Had I found out about SDN during freshman year of college instead of right after I applied in June, I would have made more of an effort to be a better applicant.

TL;DR: The system ain't fair, but we all have to live with it.

 

[efle]

I don't like to use the term "grade inflation" when referring to highly ranked undergrads (although I may have done it in prior discussions). I'm assuming that students at Stanford, Duke, and Brown have to work for their As. And those who do pull off a solid pre-med gpa at those schools are adequately prepared for med school. It's likely that grade inflation is attributed to those institutions when compared to Princeton, MIT, Wash U, Chicago, etc.

I still don't get why your school weeds out qualified students. That's freaking cruel. If anything, they should aim to produce more successful pre-meds.

There obviously is grade inflation though. I'm sure a 4.0 is no easy feat anywhere, but setting your median to A- is massive inflation, pure and simple. I get their reasoning though, the school is populated by such strong students that it makes zero sense to weed two thirds of them, and this way many many more people survive with competitive GPAs. Problem is, it's incredibly unfair and devaluing to peer institutions who don't inflate. I can't imagine how much it must suck to be at, say, Hopkins and know that if you held the same percentile among your class at Dartmouth your GPA would be a third of a point higher and shift you into much more competitive territory.

They do it because it makes for stellar numbers to brag about - our rate of getting premeds in is ridiculously high %, and we sent large # to big name med schools! Nobody questions how bad the attrition is to protect that high %, or what type of schools the typical student ends up at, since all the prospective students are cocky little sh*ts (myself included) who had only ever known what it was like to be top of their class.

Yeah, I think Cyberdyne more or less typed my response for me. A school's ranking/prestige (which tends to mostly be a correlate of selectivity) operates on a totally different axis than a school's grading rigor.

I get where you're coming from @efle but to say that "top school = rigor" is probably simplistic.

The prestige-to-rigor conversion only works well when coursework is curved, I agree schools where crazy profs decide nobody or only a couple are getting an A would qualify as harder because of insane raw score grading. But overall, using the MCAT for comparison, it would appear that the people saying "It sucks I get B's, I'd be getting A's at my state school!" are often right.

@Ace Khalifa it's all pulled from AMCAS aggregate table and the Wustl prehealth handbook table

 

[WingedOx]

Honest poll of those reading this thread: How common is a strict curve in pre-reqs where you all come from? Most of the people I know at ACC/Big10 schools (so basically everyone I went to HS with) plus the LACs in those regions were graded on raw score... and that still resulted in a massive weed out.