Totally confused by my app cycle

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Goro said:
To be accurate, there are at least 30 schools in the Top 20.
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at least 30? 😱 Would you mind naming them when you get the chance? Also I know case/emory hover around the 20th spot, but aren't CCLCM and Baylor like firmly in the top 20?
 
Sarahka74 said:
at least 30? 😱 Would you mind naming them when you get the chance? Also I know case/emory hover around the 20th spot, but aren't CCLCM and Baylor like firmly in the top 20?
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This is just my opinion, but here you go, in not particular order. BTW, if one is trying to claim that USN&WR is the basis of who is T20 or not, no medical education professional takes them serious. Only pre-meds and med school deans do.

NYU
Vanderbilt
WashU
Yale
Baylor
JHU
Northwestern
U Chicago
U Penn
Columbia
Duke
Harvard
Sinai
Cornell
Stanford
U MI
U VA
BU
Case
Mayo
Pitt
UCLA,
UCSF
UCSD
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Emory
UTSW

Add U IA, U NC, and/or U WA if you want a nice round 30.
 
Goro said:
This is just my opinion, but here you go, in not particular order. BTW, if one is trying to claim that USN&WR is the basis of who is T20 or not, no medical education professional takes them serious. Only pre-meds and med school deans do.

NYU
Vanderbilt
WashU
Yale
Baylor
JHU
Northwestern
U Chicago
U Penn
Columbia
Duke
Harvard
Sinai
Cornell
Stanford
U MI
U VA
BU
Case
Mayo
Pitt
UCLA,
UCSF
UCSD
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Emory
UTSW

Add U IA, U NC, and/or U WA if you want a nice round 30.
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Can CCLCM, Mayo Arizona, and UCLA Drew be lumped in with Case, Mayo MN, and UCLA respectively?
 
Goro said:
This is just my opinion, but here you go, in not particular order. BTW, if one is trying to claim that USN&WR is the basis of who is T20 or not, no medical education professional takes them serious. Only pre-meds and med school deans do.

NYU
Vanderbilt
WashU
Yale
Baylor
JHU
Northwestern
U Chicago
U Penn
Columbia
Duke
Harvard
Sinai
Cornell
Stanford
U MI
U VA
BU
Case
Mayo
Pitt
UCLA,
UCSF
UCSD
Albert Einstein
Dartmouth
Emory
UTSW

Add U IA, U NC, and/or U WA if you want a nice round 30.
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How many are in the Top 10? 😛
 
Update: rejected pre-II by top “flagship” state med school (UNC). It seems as though they have also rejected others IS with similar stats (above average/median) as me this cycle. 🙁

Obviously a bad sign. Now fully prepared to go without additional love the rest of the cycle.
 
Unlimited Apps said:
The only “weakness” is only ~200 hours clinical volunteering (though over 3 years).
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200 hours over the span of three years isn't actually a lot. That works out to less than 100 hours per year. Most people I know who applied and got in had quite a bit more than 200 hours of clinical volunteering.

Since you have an acceptance, it really isn't a big deal but I would say that 200 hours over 3 years is a weak point in your application.
 
Nucleophile1 said:
200 hours over the span of three years isn't actually a lot. That works out to less than 100 hours per year. Most people I know who applied and got in had quite a bit more than 200 hours of clinical volunteering.

Since you have an acceptance, it really isn't a big deal but I would say that 200 hours over 3 years is a weak point in your application.
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My current full-time gap year position involves significant clinical experience and I plan to send update letters to all schools with the additional clinical hours right after the holidays.

I have heard somewhat opposite things to your statement. 3 years is a real longitudinal activity and even though the total hours isn’t much, it’s still a consistent weekly activity alongside my [many] other obligations while being in school full time.
 
Unlimited Apps said:
My current full-time gap year position involves significant clinical experience and I plan to send update letters to all schools with the additional clinical hours right after the holidays.
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there is randomness to the process as well, however in your instance it did work out considering you have an acceptance. 40% or so applicants get only two interviews or less and a large portion of applicants only get one acceptance.
 
Unlimited Apps said:
My current full-time gap year position involves significant clinical experience and I plan to send update letters to all schools with the additional clinical hours right after the holidays.

I have heard somewhat opposite things to your statement. 3 years is a real longitudinal activity and even though the total hours isn’t much, it’s still a consistent weekly activity alongside my [many] other obligations while being in school full time.
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Longitudinal activity is definitely important and clearly you are a competitive applicant because you are currently holding one acceptance. However, there are also people who have 500-600 hours or even more of clinical volunteering over the span of 2-3 years. Not saying that you aren't competitive but 200 hours over 3 years (even with it being longitudinal) isn't something that is going to make you stand out.

I understand that you are confused but realize that the vast majority of applicants only get one acceptance so your situation is pretty common.

The people I know who got multiple acceptances were outstanding in every category (grades, MCAT, volunteering, personal statement, etc.)
 
What have you done that makes you unique? In other words, in a pile of 20 applications, what have you done that would make someone want to pick you for an interview out of all the people in that stack? I couldn't tell based on your original post.
 
2 questions.

Isn't AMCAS verified GPAs have 2 decimal points, I always wonder when people said their GPA is 3.8, it might actually be 3.75 - 3.79 gotten round-off to 3.8. I thought 3.7x might be in a different category (in AdCom view) than a true 3.8x which might fall on the top 3.8-3.9 category.

515 MCAT may have a weak section like 125... CARS is most forgivable (I heard) but if it is the science section(s)...
 
"The only “weakness” is only ~200 hours clinical volunteering (though over 3 years)."



I would say this sank you at brody, they told me last year for them research experience is neutral it doesn't help or hurt you, they want clinical experience and only 200 hours probably put you in the bottom 10% for them. I am sure UNC places more value on research but when I met with them they told me the most important thing to have on your app is clinical experience and patient contact. 200 hours over three years was probably enough to check a box but not enough to boost your app. just my two cents from my experience take it or leave it.
 
mr. tree said:
"The only “weakness” is only ~200 hours clinical volunteering (though over 3 years)."



I would say this sank you at brody, they told me last year for them research experience is neutral it doesn't help or hurt you, they want clinical experience and only 200 hours probably put you in the bottom 10% for them. I am sure UNC places more value on research but when I met with them they told me the most important thing to have on your app is clinical experience and patient contact. 200 hours over three years was probably enough to check a box but not enough to boost your app. just my two cents from my experience take it or leave it.
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I only had somewhere between 100 and 150 hours at my time of application and it hasn' been an issue at all. I had a bunch of other non clinical volunteering that may have made up for that though?
 
mr. tree said:
"The only “weakness” is only ~200 hours clinical volunteering (though over 3 years)."



I would say this sank you at brody, they told me last year for them research experience is neutral it doesn't help or hurt you, they want clinical experience and only 200 hours probably put you in the bottom 10% for them. I am sure UNC places more value on research but when I met with them they told me the most important thing to have on your app is clinical experience and patient contact. 200 hours over three years was probably enough to check a box but not enough to boost your app. just my two cents from my experience take it or leave it.
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given UNC’s primary care ranking, they probably emphasize volunteer hours pretty heavily.
 
Final Update (in case anyone in the future reads this and cares how it all turned out):

I finished the cycle with 3 II and 3As. Don't know how or why it turned out the way it did but it ultimately doesn't matter (though I will say that 30+ schools missed out on a great student 😉). I am very excited to be entering medical school in the fall and will be working hard to become the best physician that I can be!
 
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Hella weird cycle, not often you see a 3.8/515 with a single digit interview rate. But awesome that you clearly killed it in your interviews!

Would you be willing to give any info on where you did find your success? If not school names, maybe broad category (e.g. state school vs private, or how your LizzyM compares to the median)?
 
See, someone (in fact three) wanted that cookie! With so many cookies to choose from, about 35 took a pass for fear that taking more cookies than they had room for would cause them to burst at the seams.

I wish we could develop a system that would help applicants narrow their choices to 13-20 schools. It is really a waste of time and money to apply to 38 schools.
 
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efle said:
Hella weird cycle, not often you see a 3.8/515 with a single digit interview rate. But awesome that you clearly killed it in your interviews!

Would you be willing to give any info on where you did find your success? If not school names, maybe broad category (e.g. state school vs private, or how your LizzyM compares to the median)?
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Hella weird cycle is probably a slight understatement lol, especially when you add in the timings of the interviews and acceptances.

I'll provide specifics (or atleast some) after I make my final matriculation choice on April 30th.
 
LizzyM said:
See, someone (in fact two) wanted that cookie! With so many cookies to choose from, about 35 took a pass for fear that taking more cookies than they had room for would cause them to burst at the seams.

I wish we could develop a system that would help applicants narrow their choices to 13-20 schools. It is really a waste of time and money to apply to 38 schools.
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If only, if only
 
LizzyM said:
See, someone (in fact two) wanted that cookie! With so many cookies to choose from, about 35 took a pass for fear that taking more cookies than they had room for would cause them to burst at the seams.

I wish we could develop a system that would help applicants narrow their choices to 13-20 schools. It is really a waste of time and money to apply to 38 schools.
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To be completely honest, I feel A LOT better about getting 3 As over just the single acceptance. The latter situation would have made me question myself and atleast this way I know I did something right in the interview process.

Regarding the # of schools, I will admit that 38 is not practical for most applicants and is very expensive, time consuming, and mentally exhausting. However, all I will say is that if I had only applied to ~15-20 schools with a "targeted" school list, I would probably not be entering medical school this fall and be scrambling mentally to figure out what to do.

I personally think that things are so crazy that a "perfect" targeted list of 15-20 might not be enough for applicants that are closer to "cookie-cutter" than not. I personally wouldn't describe myself as cookie cutter as I had some very unique aspects to my application. But clearly that didn't make the difference I was expecting. At the end of the day, I practiced a form of risk-aversion and it worked out for me. This process is unfortunately becoming more and more competitive and more and more unpredictable.
 
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efle said:
Hella weird cycle, not often you see a 3.8/515 with a single digit interview rate. But awesome that you clearly killed it in your interviews!
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3.75/516 here, with one oos interview and an acceptance there. No other interviews, including to my in-states.
 
efle said:
How many apps? What state, California?
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24 apps--I applied very broadly and was complete in late July. I'd rather not say my state, but not California. My application was good--three years of research (and a publication first author, which I sent in an update), plenty of clinical volunteering, three good letters, two generic ones. Light on volunteering with the under-privileged. But I will say that nothing about my application was outstanding. I am an ORM, a first-time applicant straight out of undergrad, and my personal statement, although good (I think), was not particularly exciting.
 
pmcojm said:
24 apps--I applied very broadly and was complete in late July. I'd rather not say my state, but not California. My application was good--three years of research (and a publication first author, which I sent in an update), plenty of clinical volunteering, three good letters, two generic ones. Light on volunteering with the under-privileged. But I will say that nothing about my application was outstanding. I am an ORM, a first-time applicant straight out of undergrad, and my personal statement, although good (I think), was not particularly exciting.
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You're hardly cookie cutter if you have a first author paper and plenty of clinical volunteerism. But even as a cookie cutter it is WEIRD to go 1 for 24 on interviews with a 3.8/516. Like VERY weird. Doubly so if you're from a state with very accessible public med schools that denied even interviewing you. I had a lot of friends with cookie cutter apps and stats like yours and nobody had that close of a near miss in their cycle. I think something is afoot at the Circle K in your cycle as well
 
Although I'm disappointed to have to pay for a private, out-of-state school, I'm not going to worry about it anymore or wonder what happened. I'm in an MD school and moving on. I'm very happy with that.
 
Strawberryfilling said:
Is it really that uncommon? I had a 3.8x/518 and "only" 4 interviews out of 36 apps.
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I'd have to see your list and know you had the other boxes checked, but yeah. Someone with straight A's and a top 5% MCAT should not be struggling to get 1 interview per dozen schools.

For reference, the average matriculant has 3 interviews, which they get from applying to about a dozen schools with a 3.7/510. (Source: AAMC survey of matriculating medical students).

If you're struggling to get an average number of invites, while applying to three times as many places with a much stronger LizzyM, something ain't right
 
efle said:
I'd have to see your list and know you had the other boxes checked, but yeah. Someone with straight A's and a top 5% MCAT should not be struggling to get 1 interview per dozen schools.

For reference, the average matriculant has 3 interviews, which they get from applying to about a dozen schools with a 3.7/510. (Source: AAMC survey of matriculating medical students).

If you're struggling to get an average number of invites, while applying to three times as many places with a much stronger LizzyM, something ain't right
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It's weird, but not as uncommon as you might think. Its tuff out here lol
 
efle said:
Haha says the guy with interviews at 10/23 completed schools!
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Haha, but if you take a look at my MDApps you'll see that it's not exactly what you'd expect for a 3.9/520 applicant. The reason for the high interview count is because of my state schools (TX) Three of which are mid-tier, and the rest are lower tier MD. Didn't do very hot OOS at all, and in terms of schools that align with my stats -- well 0 acceptances, lol, I am ultimately very happy 🙂 with how things have come along, but I definitely didn't imagine the cycle going this way, similar to OP.

To add to this -- some of my friends experiences
3.9/519 1 acceptance midtier until last minute T20 accept
3.9/519 0 acceptances 5 WL
3.9/521 2 T20 accepts 2 full rides
3.9/527 1 T20 MD 1 T25 MSTP
3.9/523 1 acceptance mid tier
3.9/524 2 acceptance mid teir

All of us had roughly similar apps, if anything, some of the ones who did better had weaker ECs than some of the others who arent doing as well. The past 12 months have definitely been a surprising experience 😛
 
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dodolol21 said:
Haha, but if you take a look at my MDApps you'll see that it's not exactly what you'd expect for a 3.9/520 applicant. The reason for the high interview count is because of my state schools (TX) Three of which are mid-tier, and the rest are lower tier MD. Didn't do very hot OOS at all, and in terms of schools that align with my stats -- well 0 acceptances, lol, I am ultimately very happy 🙂 with how things have come along, but I definitely didn't imagine the cycle going this way, similar to OP.

To add to this -- some of my friends experiences
3.9/519 1 acceptance midtier until last minute T20 accept
3.9/519 0 acceptances 5 WL
3.9/521 2 T20 accepts 2 full rides
3.9/527 1 T20 MD 1 T25 MSTP
3.9/523 1 acceptance mid tier
3.9/524 2 acceptance mid teir

All of us had roughly similar apps, if anything, some of the ones who did better had weaker ECs than some of the others who arent doing as well. The past 12 months have definitely been a surprising experience 😛
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I gotta say from glancing at your MDapps, you really shot yourself in the foot by applying to medical school at 19 years old. That's going to be worrying much more than impressive to most adcoms, especially at the top schools. If you took a couple years off to enjoy your youth before jumping into the grind, especially if it could beef up your research C.V. like IRTA or Fulbright...you would have no doubt swept most of the top 20s you applied to. I think being such an outlier in this regard makes your cycle make a lot more sense.

Edit: Case in point would be WashU denying you an interview. I can tell you from experience they interview EVERYONE with stats like yours unless there are red flags. Your age scared them off, and many others.

Re your friends, I also knew a lot of people with great stats that barely got 1-2 admits, often none at top programs. But, they got interviews. Plenty of interviews. They just did poorly with the interviewing part, or didn't have much other than their stats going for them, so they got a lot of waitlists and rejections. But I didn't know anybody with stats like those who applied to 20+ places and got only a couple invites.
 
efle said:
I gotta say from glancing at your MDapps, you really shot yourself in the foot by applying to medical school at 19 years old. That's going to be worrying much more than impressive to most adcoms, especially at the top schools. If you took a couple years off to enjoy your youth before jumping into the grind, especially if it could beef up your research C.V. like IRTA or Fulbright...you would have no doubt swept most of the top 20s you applied to. I think being such an outlier in this regard makes your cycle make a lot more sense.
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You can't have it all I guess, I'm sure you'll agree that there are a handful of 19-year-olds mature enough to be your classmates, just as there are 24-year-olds who you might question whether they belong. To me, its more about getting to do what I want to sooner, so I'm happy to go to a mid-tier program at 20 then a T20 at 24. I could be a PGY10 in pediatric congenital cardiac surgery at 34 if I wanted to do it.

Although some of the schools may have been scared off -- the ones who accepted me both offered me decent scholarships, so while I understand due to the number of applications, the cost of interviewing, adcoms at top schools have to rely on subjective judgements, I do wish they would have taken some risks
 
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Unlimited Apps said:
Final Update (in case anyone in the future reads this and cares how it all turned out):

I finished the cycle with 3 II and 3As. Don't know how or why it turned out the way it did but it ultimately doesn't matter (though I will say that 30+ schools missed out on a great student 😉). I am very excited to be entering medical school in the fall and will be working hard to become the best physician that I can be!
Click to expand...

Congratulations!!!
 
dodolol21 said:
You can't have it all I guess, I'm sure you'll agree that there are a handful of 19-year-olds mature enough to be your classmates, just as there are 24-year-olds who you might question whether they belong. To me, its more about getting to do what I want to sooner, so I'm happy to go to a mid-tier program at 20 then a T20 at 24. I could be a PGY10 in pediatric congenital cardiac surgery at 34 if I wanted to do it.

Although some of the schools may have been scared off -- the ones who accepted me both offered me decent scholarships, so while I understand due to the number of applications, the cost of interviewing, adcoms at top schools have to rely on subjective judgements, I do wish they would have taken some risks
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Sure, I don't mean to challenge your path. Just saying, you can understand why it would be concerning to adcoms. Very, very few people are ready to begin medical training before they can buy beer. And, it's not just a question of maturity. Someone could be plenty mature, but when life thus far has been hitting the academic grind at maximum velocity to graduate college at 19 and now they want to jump straight into medical school, I might have some other concerns about their personality and priorities.

Again not implying any of that is actually true of you. Just that I can see why a bunch of risk-averse admissions folks would shy away. Maybe they did take the chance on a brilliant teenager in the past, and regretted it for reasons that had nothing to do with academics or maturity.
 
efle said:
Sure, I don't mean to challenge your path. Just saying, you can understand why it would be concerning to adcoms. Very, very few people are ready to begin medical training before they can buy beer. And, it's not just a question of maturity. Someone could be plenty mature, but when life thus far has been hitting the academic grind at maximum velocity to graduate college at 19 and now they want to jump straight into medical school, I might have some other concerns about their personality and priorities.

Again not implying any of that is actually true of you. Just that I can see why a bunch of risk-averse admissions folks would shy away. Maybe they did take the chance on a brilliant teenager in the past, and regretted it for reasons that had nothing to do with academics or maturity.
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Just to get a little more clarity on this @LizzyM @gyngyn how does age appear on the adcoms side? Does the age when applied stay fixed throughout the cycle or does it update as the student's age changes? For example, if 19 at app time in summer but 20 by fall, do adcoms still see 19?
 
Age is hard to judge. At my school, I feel like it would be a huge disadvantage because we serve alcohol at all our social events. The social reps organize after exam socials at bars and the under 21 year old classmate would automatically be excluded from all of those things.
 
Oddly enough, my app cycle I had a 31 (~511) and a 3.73, complete at 25 schools and I had 10 II. I was also a nontrad with a unique story.
 
ciestar said:
Age is hard to judge. At my school, I feel like it would be a huge disadvantage because we serve alcohol at all our social events. The social reps organize after exam socials at bars and the under 21 year old classmate would automatically be excluded from all of those things.
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Yeah this is what I was thinking about too. Even if someone is mature enough and not a socially awkward bookworm, there's a huge social isolation factor that would come from being 19-20 among a bunch of 23-24 year olds. You literally can't even go out for drinks with classmates during all of preclinical to any bar that's strict about IDs
 
efle said:
Yeah this is what I was thinking about too. Even if someone is mature enough and not a socially awkward bookworm, there's a huge social isolation factor that would come from being 19-20 among a bunch of 23-24 year olds. You literally can't even go out for drinks with classmates during all of preclinical to any bar that's strict about IDs
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lol, I don't think this is that big an issue. Even if I was 24 I wouldn't be going to bars since my religion prohibits drinking. Pretty sure schools don't really factor in whether it would be an issue inviting you to an event with drinks in their admission decisions.
 
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dodolol21 said:
Just to get a little more clarity on this @LizzyM @gyngyn how does age appear on the adcoms side? Does the age when applied stay fixed throughout the cycle or does it update as the student's age changes? For example, if 19 at app time in summer but 20 by fall, do adcoms still see 19?
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Your date of birth is on the application so we know everything if we are capable of simple arithmetic.
glassesvar said:
Could you give us some examples of stuff that was said in these?
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If it seems like applying to medical school and becoming a doctor has been an idea thrust upon the applicant from the age of one and the reason for doing it is family tradition, family pride, and/or an unwillingness to disappoint the older generation.

If the applicant sees themself as a savior who will eradicate pain and sorrow through medicine and health education. ("I was sad when my grandfather died from lung cancer. If he had known that smoking three packs per day was bad, this would not have happened. I will educate and treat my patients so that no grandchild ever suffers what I went through.")

dodolol21 said:
lol, I don't think this is that big an issue. Even if I was 24 I wouldn't be going to bars since my religion prohibits drinking. Pretty sure schools don't really factor in whether it would be an issue inviting you to an event with drinks in their admission decisions
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Even if you don't drink, you can still go to a bar (or an on-campus party) and have a glass of juice or other non-alcoholic beverage and enjoy the party atmosphere that goes with the completion of a big exam in med school. That's the point being made... you can enter a venue that is closed to the under 21 crowd and you can be part of the community and engage in social networking. It is one of the ways that a school builds community and you don't have to drink to be part of the group.
 
Applying at age 19 alone isn’t enough to keep you out of top schools imo - in my class at UCSF, there were at least 3 kids who were 20 at orientation, and those are just the ones I know of. There are some top schools who might not be comfortable with youth, but others may be more open. Of note, many, many more of us were traditional 21 y/os at the time, in addition to the non-trads.

This is just to say that maybe waiting a year or two could have resulted in a t20 acceptance, but most likely it wouldn’t have changed much if age is the only factor.

Also I’ve literally been to a bar twice during med school, as someone who doesn’t drink due to hating the taste. You’ll be fine socially without bar hopping.
 
differentiating said:
Applying at age 19 alone isn’t enough to keep you out of top schools imo - in my class at UCSF, there were at least 3 kids who were 20 at orientation, and those are just the ones I know of. There are some top schools who might not be comfortable with youth, but others may be more open. Of note, many, many more of us were traditional 21 y/os at the time, in addition to the non-trads.

This is just to say that maybe waiting a year or two could have resulted in a t20 acceptance, but most likely it wouldn’t have changed much if age is the only factor.

Also I’ve literally been to a bar twice during med school, as someone who doesn’t drink due to hating the taste. You’ll be fine socially without bar hopping.
Click to expand...

I guess the question is then -- how much has admissions changed in the past four years to favor older students, and would those 3 kids who got into UCSF at 20 still have gotten in today?

EDIT: Looking at UCSFs incoming class data, it seems at least one 20 year old still made it in for the incoming class of 2018.
 
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