Tough Decision

[Rgvmed]

Hello all,

I usually post in the pre pt forum but I would like to see what everyone here thinks. I've had a lot of success i the application process and I'm extremely happy about that. I've been accepted to a bunch of schools but am having trouble deciding between the following:

TWU Houston
University of South Carolina
Duke

Duke is obviously the most expensive at a tad over 100k. University of South Carolina is two hours away from my parents and comes in at around 55k and then TWU, which could be anywhere from 33k to 67k depending on how many instate waivers I can muster up. Throughout this whole process I've kept debt and cost of the program at the forefront of decision making process. Since I received a Duke acceptance, I have friends, family, and professors all pushing me this way. Sadly, I have undergraduate debt and realize that I would be setting myself up for a life student loan debt if I chose Duke. It's double the price of South Carolina!

I guess most of you will say don't go to Duke but if you have another thought then let me know. Would it would be worth moving to Houston to save 20k? I figure that the move, traveling back to the east coast for holiday and such will all add up. Also, I'm pretty sure the cost of living in columbia, sc is going to be at least slightly cheaper than a major city.

There is also another wild card, Angelo State University whom I have not heard back from but could potentially be incredibly cheap at 26k with an instate waiver. I'd have to seriously consider them if there a potential savings over 30k.

Thank you!

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[starrsgirl]

Have you visited all of these schools? Are there any huge program differences like length of time or anything? Do you know if you will get any scholarship from Duke? (I don't know any of these programs...just trying to ask some questions to open up the picture)

Is the Pass rate similar on all of them?

 

[Watson27]

I am in a similar situation, but with completely different schools. I was accepted to Delaware and made the heartbreaking decision to decline their offer. I absolutely loved everything about the program and many of my friends and PTs I work with were pushing me to go there. But I unfortunately did not receive a scholarship from them, and after crunching the numbers and figuring out what my monthly loan payments would be for the next 10 or 15 years, I just couldn't do it. They were my number 1 choice. I'm not going to lie, I cried after I notified them of my decision. Hardest decision I've ever had to make. I tried to justify the cost to myself in so many ways, but it kept coming back to the size of the monthly payments, and the total cost after interest. So even if Duke costs $100k, don't be surprised if that eventually becomes $175-$200k depending on the type of loan you have and what your repayment plan is.

But at the same time, I declined the offer from the cheapest school ($40k total + possibility of GA position which would make the cost $0). After visiting the program, I realized I would probably hate being there for 3 years. I do not believe in the "go to the cheapest place you get in" mantra.

I still haven't decided where I will be going. I have two more offers on the table and am waiting to hear back from 3 more schools. I just keep reminding myself how lucky I am to have multiple offers. Although there have been moments where I wished I had only gotten in to Delaware - I wouldn't have minded being "forced" to go there for lack of other options.

So I guess my advice is to crunch the numbers. What is it actually going to cost you to go to Duke?

 

[Carson Ranger]

I also do not believe in the "go to the cheapest place you get in" mantra. You have to weigh everything.

My PT mentor went to Duke undergrad and Columbia for PT. She was shocked to hear Duke's lectures are online.
At Duke's prices, I think online lectures are a red flag. My 2 cents.

 

[Rgvmed]

I am in a similar situation, but with completely different schools. I was accepted to Delaware and made the heartbreaking decision to decline their offer. I absolutely loved everything about the program and many of my friends and PTs I work with were pushing me to go there. But I unfortunately did not receive a scholarship from them, and after crunching the numbers and figuring out what my monthly loan payments would be for the next 10 or 15 years, I just couldn't do it. They were my number 1 choice. I'm not going to lie, I cried after I notified them of my decision. Hardest decision I've ever had to make. I tried to justify the cost to myself in so many ways, but it kept coming back to the size of the monthly payments, and the total cost after interest. So even if Duke costs $100k, don't be surprised if that eventually becomes $175-$200k depending on the type of loan you have and what your repayment plan is.

But at the same time, I declined the offer from the cheapest school ($40k total + possibility of GA position which would make the cost $0). After visiting the program, I realized I would probably hate being there for 3 years. I do not believe in the "go to the cheapest place you get in" mantra.

I still haven't decided where I will be going. I have two more offers on the table and am waiting to hear back from 3 more schools. I just keep reminding myself how lucky I am to have multiple offers. Although there have been moments where I wished I had only gotten in to Delaware - I wouldn't have minded being "forced" to go there for lack of other options.

So I guess my advice is to crunch the numbers. What is it actually going to cost you to go to Duke?

Interesting, glad to see someone else in the same boat. I'm going to go visit University of South Carolina this weekend to look around as they don't do interviews and I haven't actually been to the campus before. The Duke DPT program really seemed like a good fit for me so it's super hard to turn away. I have a couple more days to crunch some numbers and make a decision. I might ask them if I can defer for a couple more weeks.

 

[Rgvmed]

I also do not believe in the "go to the cheapest place you get in" mantra. You have to weigh everything.

My PT mentor went to Duke undergrad and Columbia for PT. She was shocked to hear Duke's lectures are online. At Duke's prices, I think online lectures are a red flag. My 2 cents.

That's a great point, I was also shocked to hear that their lectures are mostly online. But it seems like that is done so that the students are prepared coming into other classes. I sort of agree with the non spoon fed route, although the price should reflect the lack of overhead when putting lectures online.

 

[PTMattI]

Are you currently living in Texas or SC? Either way, I would choose the cheapest school as long as you dont think you will be absolutely miserable there. I am sure Duke is a great program and it definitely has a very good reputation but I can pretty much guarantee you that you will find things that you dont like about their program if you go there (as you will with any school)

Also, the debt you accumulate in PT school will follow you longer than any prestige that going to a school like Duke affords you which I think would only be beneficial for your first job / if you choose to apply to residencies. On that same topic, you could always choose to do a residency program at a school like Duke AFTER you get your DPT.

 

[Watson27]

Also, I just remembered that one of the PT's I work with went to Duke. She is young and graduated 3 years I ago I think. She had to consolidate her debt because she couldn't afford to make the monthly payments. She is unmarried, no kids. She just has that much debt. She loved Duke, but definitely advised me to not go somewhere that costs $100k, especially if you have loans from undergrad also.

 

[Rgvmed]

Are you currently living in Texas or SC? Either way, I would choose the cheapest school as long as you dont think you will be absolutely miserable there. I am sure Duke is a great program and it definitely has a very good reputation but I can pretty much guarantee you that you will find things that you dont like about their program if you go there (as you will with any school)

Also, the debt you accumulate in PT school will follow you longer than any prestige that going to a school like Duke affords you which I think would only be beneficial for your first job / if you choose to apply to residencies. On that same topic, you could always choose to do a residency program at a school like Duke AFTER you get your DPT.

I am in SC. You bring up some great points. Do you feel like 20k in tuition is worth the trip to Houston? My cost of moving would be much less if I chose to go to school just a couple of hours away.

 

[Rgvmed]

Also, I just remembered that one of the PT's I work with went to Duke. She is young and graduated 3 years I ago I think. She had to consolidate her debt because she couldn't afford to make the monthly payments. She is unmarried, no kids. She just has that much debt. She loved Duke, but definitely advised me to not go somewhere that costs $100k, especially if you have loans from undergrad also.

Yeah I bet, I'm definitely not trying to work 60 hours a week to pay off my debt. I am willing to work 50 for a year or two to take a dent out of it. Thank you for the information.

 

[PTMattI]

I am in SC. You bring up some great points. Do you feel like 20k in tuition is worth the trip to Houston? My cost of moving would be much less if I chose to go to school just a couple of hours away.

Are you sure that you would be able to get the instate tuition at the school in Houston? If you do, how much higher is the cost of living in Houston? Also would you want to spend two years that far away from your family? Plane tickets arent cheap. On the other hand, it could be a good experience to live somewhere else for a few years. All things to consider. 20k difference might mean 2-4 extra years of living frugally after you graduate (could be more or less...depending how large you want your payments to be)

 

[PTMattI]

Also, as far as clinicals...you are much more likely to be able to land clinicals in your home state if you went to South Carolina or Duke...if you intend on practicing in the South East.

 

[PTMattI]

Ultimately just make whatever decision you think is best and try not to look back. The grass might seem greener on the other side but that is not always the case.
No matter where you go your education is still ultimately up to you and is going to be what you make of it.

 

[Carson Ranger]

SO TRUE. Once you make up your mind, just KEEP MOVING

 

[Rgvmed]

Are you sure that you would be able to get the instate tuition at the school in Houston? If you do, how much higher is the cost of living in Houston? Also would you want to spend two years that far away from your family? Plane tickets arent cheap. On the other hand, it could be a good experience to live somewhere else for a few years. All things to consider. 20k difference might mean 2-4 extra years of living frugally after you graduate (could be more or less...depending how large you want your payments to be)

There is no guarantee, although they try their best to give you a waiver. Without a guarantee, it seems like I should probably decide between South Carolina and a potential Angelo State acceptance. And you're right, plane tickets are not cheap!! I've lived away from my family as I'm slightly older at 28 and have had a previous career. I do see value in staying close to them as they will be able to help me out with things from time to time. South Carolina is still relatively inexpensive at 55k, although it is longer than the average program at 3.3 years. I appreciate ALL of the advice and comments.

 

[Carson Ranger]

If I were you I'd go SC all the way. I wish UNLV was that cheap! I am so lucky to have only one in-state option that happens to be one of the most expensive public schools in the nation.

 

[jblil]

OP - Duke is overpriced and does not give out scholarships (at least it didn't in 2012, when I got accepted - I declined). You have a MBA. Compute the IRR for the 3 or 4 schools you're considering, that may help you make a decision. Other factors are NPTE pass rate, student life, class size, etc.
I went to USC myself and got my Engr degree there, many many moons ago. I have very fond memories of the school.

 

[Medievalknight56]

Jblil,
I am new to SND and have read a number of your posts. I have a question for you, but would rather do it privately. May I contact you privately? If so, how do I do that. My question is in regards to a career change into physical therapy.
thanks,
MK56

OP - Duke is overpriced and does not give out scholarships (at least it didn't in 2012, when I got accepted - I declined). You have a MBA. Compute the IRR for the 3 or 4 schools you're considering, that may help you make a decision. Other factors are NPTE pass rate, student life, class size, etc.
I went to USC myself and got my Engr degree there, many many moons ago. I have very fond memories of the school.

 

[jblil]

Medievalknight - I just sent you a message, you should see it when you log into SDN. I'll be glad to help if I can.

 

[DesertPT]

Also, I just remembered that one of the PT's I work with went to Duke. She is young and graduated 3 years I ago I think. She had to consolidate her debt because she couldn't afford to make the monthly payments. She is unmarried, no kids. She just has that much debt. She loved Duke, but definitely advised me to not go somewhere that costs $100k, especially if you have loans from undergrad also.

Even if she was only making $70k, you should be able to afford $2000/month payments if you have no kids and are living frugally. There is no way your monthly payments are going to be more than that on some kind of income based repayment plan (though those can be 25 year plans). Or else she had a crapload of undergrad debt split between multiple loans.

 

[Don713]

I'm sort of confused about Dukes method, could anyone explain. we're in class from 8-5 daily but lectures are online? how does this all work. i assume ill learn more about it at my interview but a little heads up would be nice haha

 

[NewTestament]

Even if she was only making $70k, you should be able to afford $2000/month payments if you have no kids and are living frugally. There is no way your monthly payments are going to be more than that on some kind of income based repayment plan (though those can be 25 year plans). Or else she had a crapload of undergrad debt split between multiple loans.

Yeah I don't understand the math here. Even if her total debt were $200k, it wouldn't take much more than ten years to repay that if her payment were $2k/month. And if she had that much debt, she should have been working 50 hours a week (40 full-time, 10 PRN) to pay back those loans. My cousin has >$150k in debt and she has a car payment, lives in New Jersey, and has no problem making her payment.

To answer the question, go to SC and save a lot of money. Duke isn't worth it. $100k for three years? That's pretty outrageous.

 

[DesertPT]

$100k for three years? That's pretty outrageous.

Sadly that's actually pretty cheap for private schools these days. >$120k for the three years is becoming common.

 

[305PT]

Hello all,

I usually post in the pre pt forum but I would like to see what everyone here thinks. I've had a lot of success i the application process and I'm extremely happy about that. I've been accepted to a bunch of schools but am having trouble deciding between the following:

TWU Houston
University of South Carolina
Duke

Duke is obviously the most expensive at a tad over 100k. University of South Carolina is two hours away from my parents and comes in at around 55k and then TWU, which could be anywhere from 33k to 67k depending on how many instate waivers I can muster up. Throughout this whole process I've kept debt and cost of the program at the forefront of decision making process. Since I received a Duke acceptance, I have friends, family, and professors all pushing me this way. Sadly, I have undergraduate debt and realize that I would be setting myself up for a life student loan debt if I chose Duke. It's double the price of South Carolina!

I guess most of you will say don't go to Duke but if you have another thought then let me know. Would it would be worth moving to Houston to save 20k? I figure that the move, traveling back to the east coast for holiday and such will all add up. Also, I'm pretty sure the cost of living in columbia, sc is going to be at least slightly cheaper than a major city.

There is also another wild card, Angelo State University whom I have not heard back from but could potentially be incredibly cheap at 26k with an instate waiver. I'd have to seriously consider them if there a potential savings over 30k.

Thank you!

Hi I was in a similar situation as you are in right now earlier this year. I was accepted by Emory and FIU. But I ended up choosing FIU because of costs. Like Duke, I'd be paying around 100K for emory plus costs of living whereas at FIU my tuition is less and I'm living at home. Honestly it sucked and I cried when I declined Emory but I couldn't bear the thought of being almost 200K in debt with interest plus my undergrad loan after graduation. I didn't want to start my career with so much debt.So definitely consider the cheaper school.

 

[ctlna]

I'm currently in this spot with UM vs UF and hopefully some other schools.
I absolutely loved UM when I interviewed there and the thought of not being able to go just because of money honestly pisses me off. But, like other said, the thought of having that much debt really really scares me. I'm lucky to not have undergrad debt but regardless it's still a lot.

I don't know what to do either, I know this probably isn't the greatest post but I guess in the end I agree with don't settle for the cheapest but do take the debt into account.

 

[Watson27]

@ctlna Have you calculated the total final cost including interest? This was the key for me. An extra $30-50k in tuition can easily turn into much much more, depending on your repayment plan. Especially once you factor in cost of living.

It sucks to not go to your dream school solely due to cost. I just keep telling myself that it's the smartest decision. Sometimes you have to listen to your head and not your heart.

 

[jblil]

the thought of having that much debt really really scares me

The question of "how much debt can I take on" seems to have cropped up a lot lately. The answer is completely dependent on each person's individual circumstances and threshold for pain, but projecting your income/expenses for after you graduate with a DPT will help guide your decision:
- Estimate your monthly expenses: rent, food, utilities, transportation, insurance, etc. You know best if you can put up with a roommate, and how much the likely rent in the area would be; same with transportation - you also know best if you can squeeze a few more years out of your car, or if you need to get another one (would a used car be ok, or will you only buy new?) Food costs: are you a person who wants to eat out often, or are you happy with packed lunches and home-cooked dinners? Don't forget miscellaneous expenses such as cell phone, cable TV/internet, work clothes, dry cleaning, vacation trips, retirement savings, etc.
- Also take taxes into account: the IRS and your state will want their pound of flesh from your income;
- Assume a starting salary;
- See how much you have left after expenses and taxes;
- This amount (post-expenses and post-taxes) is what you can put against your loans. Use a loan repayment calculator to find out how much debt you can live with.

If you build out this budget on Excel, you can vary the different inputs and run a bunch of scenarios. If you are close to graduation, it can also help you determine an acceptable starting salary.

I think the key is to project yourself into the future, make some assumptions based on actual and personal data, then from all that back out how much debt you can put up with.

 

[PT2Bee]

I am in a similar situation, but with completely different schools. I was accepted to Delaware and made the heartbreaking decision to decline their offer. I absolutely loved everything about the program and many of my friends and PTs I work with were pushing me to go there. But I unfortunately did not receive a scholarship from them, and after crunching the numbers and figuring out what my monthly loan payments would be for the next 10 or 15 years, I just couldn't do it. They were my number 1 choice. I'm not going to lie, I cried after I notified them of my decision. Hardest decision I've ever had to make. I tried to justify the cost to myself in so many ways, but it kept coming back to the size of the monthly payments, and the total cost after interest. So even if Duke costs $100k, don't be surprised if that eventually becomes $175-$200k depending on the type of loan you have and what your repayment plan is.

But at the same time, I declined the offer from the cheapest school ($40k total + possibility of GA position which would make the cost $0). After visiting the program, I realized I would probably hate being there for 3 years. I do not believe in the "go to the cheapest place you get in" mantra.

I still haven't decided where I will be going. I have two more offers on the table and am waiting to hear back from 3 more schools. I just keep reminding myself how lucky I am to have multiple offers. Although there have been moments where I wished I had only gotten in to Delaware - I wouldn't have minded being "forced" to go there for lack of other options.

So I guess my advice is to crunch the numbers. What is it actually going to cost you to go to Duke?

I say you can do anything for 3 years. Live in an "undesirable" location for 3 years to save 20-40k potentially? Where do I sign?? I think people get caught up in going to their dream school and trying to justify the outrageous costs of some programs. My program is private and around 99k for the three years thanks to tuition spikes. But, I decided to live in state to get assistance from my parents even though I had offers out of state.

 

[NewTestament]

@ctlna
It sucks to not go to your dream school solely due to cost. I just keep telling myself that it's the smartest decision. Sometimes you have to listen to your head and not your heart.

Most of the time you should listen to your head. Reason trumps emotion any day.

School is school. Every school is going to teach you the same things. Some schools have a slightly different philosophy, but the curriculums at all these schools are designed to help you pass the NPTE. What sucks more than not going to your dream school is being in debt for an extra 3-4 years.

Jblil: Do you know how to find income tax rates by state? What's the income tax rate for a PT making between $60-70k a year? I'm doing what you suggest. I'm building a budget for the next year but the only X factor is the taxes. I'm assuming I'll be paying 25% federal+state if I make $70k in my first year.

It's important also to overestimate your expenses. Assume you'll pay $1k in rent, not $700. Assume you'll spend $1000 on car maintenance, not $500.

I feel bad for people who have to make a $2k payment every month. Even if you make $75k your first year, you won't have much discretionary money for a family or leisure.

 

[jblil]

Jblil: Do you know how to find income tax rates by state? What's the income tax rate for a PT making between $60-70k a year?

When it comes to taxes, you have to consider federal as well as state taxes. I'll cover both below. IIRC, you're in FL so you can disregard the second part, unless you plan to move out-of-state when you graduate.

Federal taxes: one thing many folks don't realize is that our tax system is tiered. Your taxable income will be taxed at different rates. Let's say you are single and your taxable income is $50K. The first ~$9K (actually, it's $9,075 for 2014) will be taxed at 10%. After that, the amount between $9,076 and $36,900 will be taxed at 15%. Then after that, the amount between $36,901 and $89,350 is taxed at 25%. And so on, until you reach the highest current tax rate of 39.6% - which most of us will probably not hit as PTs since it kicks in at around $400K of taxable income.

The highest tax rate you pay is often referred to as your "tax bracket" or your "marginal rate." But remember that only part of your taxable income (the top slice) is taxed at that rate. To estimate your taxable income, scroll down to post #24 of this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ge-loans-for-pt-school-need-feedback.1105645/

The easiest way to estimate your federal taxes is to use Turbo Tax or similar software. Many vendors will let you use their tax software for free, I know TaxAct does. Create a profile, go through their step-by-step process (or you can bypass it if you know where to enter all the numbers for your situation) and run a bunch of scenarios. Doing it takes only a few seconds, and could help you save a lot of money.

State taxes: most states follow the federal tiered-brackets model. A few states have no income taxes, but they will get you somewhere else such with sales taxes or property taxes - schools, police & fire depts, etc still have to be funded. Other states have a flax tax rate: anything above a certain threshold gets taxed at one unique rate. You can estimate your state taxes by looking here:
http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-personal-income-tax-rates-and-brackets-2014-update
You can also use tax software, but most vendors will make you pay for state-tax programs.

One last thing I want to mention about taxes: tax planning is a year-round activity, and not something you do on April 14... Before you make any financial decision, think about how it will affect your taxes. This will be absolutely crucial if you open up your own practice some day.

And I know this may sound sacrilegious to some, but we should be thankful that we have to pay taxes: at least we're making a high enough income to be taxed on. The alternative -being poor, cold and hungry- is much less appealing.

 

[Rgvmed]

Everyone has been extremely helpful. Jbill is an excellent resource for the financial side of these decisions. Most of my work was speculative in the finance world. I've turned down the pending interviews and have a couple more to do. University of South Carolina is an excellent school so I'm still just as pumped!

 

[jblil]

@ DPTcoasral: Have you decided to attend USC? If so, congrats!
There used to be a pretty good eatery right next to the campus, I hope it's still open... IIRC, its name is "California Dreaming", a fitting name for a restaurant close to USC

 

[DesertPT]

Federal taxes: one thing many folks don't realize is that our tax system is tiered. Your taxable income will be taxed at different rates. Let's say you are single and your taxable income is $50K. The first ~$9K (actually, it's $9,075 for 2014) will be taxed at 10%. After that, the amount between $9,076 and $36,900 will be taxed at 15%. Then after that, the amount between $36,901 and $89,350 is taxed at 25%. And so on, until you reach the highest current tax rate of 39.6% - which most of us will probably not hit as PTs since it kicks in at around $400K of taxable income.

Another excellent post jblil.

Just wanted to note that if you are married, 25% income tax doesn't kick in until ~$74k, so your federal tax burden on a PTs salary (say $75k) would be at least $4k less. A lot of PTs wouldn't even hit the 25% bracket if they didn't have a second income.