Tougher to Get into PA program than a D.O. program

[mafunk]

I've been told by adcoms and anecdotally by applicants that it is substantially more difficult to be accepted to a PA program than a D.O. program.

I know of one girl who applied to PA programs three years in a row - rejected every time. The first year she applied to a D.O. program she was accepted.

I find this interesting. I wonder if it is because the PA program is so much less of a commitment time/$ wise, and therefore attracts many more applicants. Also the PA programs require more patient contact experience than the D.O. programs, which I believe is because PAs only get two years of post undergrad training so they have to know a little something before they even matriculate.

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[emtthink]

I think it is mostly due to the number of programs that are available for PA. Also like you said, a larger number of people would rather go this route, because it's cheaper and in the end they don't have to worry as much about overhead.

 

[HotandCold]

"Tougher" proportionally for PA geared individuals- and the amount of work PA prospects put in in undergrad. If you want to be qualitative here, getting into a DO school is significantly harder because of the work students put in... The MCAT and Research and grades medical School applicants typically go through before getting into a school (DO or MD) make becoming a physician far tougher.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I would also add the MCAT is way harder than the GRE, I think people would rather go the 'easy' route than take the MCAT, etc... It could also be where she is applying, and other factors.... Maybe the PA schools didn't feel she would make a good PA...

 

[hawkeye pierce]

Is it possible the MCAT was the difference maker in her favor.

 

[Just Joshin]

I would also add the MCAT is way harder than the GRE, I think people would rather go the 'easy' route than take the MCAT, etc... It could also be where she is applying, and other factors.... Maybe the PA schools didn't feel she would make a good PA...

And some PA schools don't even require the GRE! Really, it's absurd to think it's easier to get into med school than PA school.

 

[nooneLT]

1st year I went back to school I applied to 5 PA programs. Didn't get a single interview. Keep retaking classes, 2nd year took the MCAT and applied to a lot of DO schools. Got interviews to 3 and accepted to 2.

I think it's mostly the number of PA programs and the class sizes. There's just more seats available in DO programs compared to PA programs.

 

[PharmBound2011]

1st year I went back to school I applied to 5 PA programs. Didn't get a single interview. Keep retaking classes, 2nd year took the MCAT and applied to a lot of DO schools. Got interviews to 3 and accepted to 2.

I think it's mostly the number of PA programs and the class sizes. There's just more seats available in DO programs compared to PA programs.

Exactly. The average PA class is ~ 40 students while the average DO class is more like 200. That's the reason why there is a greater acceptance rate for DO than PA school.

 

[Dr Tickles]

Who cares... it's hard to believe knowing the answer could affect one's decision. It's as pointless as the which is harder vet vs. med, pharm vs med, etc. The reality is that each applicants pool for the different "professional" schools varies immensely, so comparing in a purely objective fashion is not feasible. Nevertheless, from my personal experience at Duquesne University (which has programs for PA, PharmD, etc.), the academic strength of the applicants for the MD/PhD programs was the strongest, followed by basically a tie with the medical and vet students, followed by the allied health professions.

Here's the 2011 data from AACOM... compare it to the PA schools. I'd be surprised if the ratio of applicants to seats was higher for PA schools.

 

[ManBroDude]

Exactly. The average PA class is ~ 40 students while the average DO class is more like 200. That's the reason why there is a greater acceptance rate for DO than PA school.

That's true. There's ~140 PA programs across the US, and with an avg class size of 40, that's 5,600 seats to fill. There's 41 DO schools with a class size of ~200, so that's 8,000 seats to fill in comparison.

Also, it's completely doable to go right into MD/DO school right from college. PA schools are now requiring anywhere from 1,000-3,000 hours of paid hands-on healthcare experience on top of a bachelor's degree. So not only do you have to have your bachelor's taken care of, but you also have to go back to school for 1-2 years, certified in CNA, EMT-B, RN, RT, etc; THEN you have to work in that field and get hands on experience for a year or two before you can even apply. This is really hard to pull off by graduation unless you get lucky early on. Also, the average PA applicant nowadays are non-traditional paramedics, nurses, etc who have 2-10 years of experience under their belt, kids at home, bills piling up, noses in their books at dinner time, and are eyeing those PA school seats with absolute fire under their asses.

The biggest difference for us though, is the DO schools' stance on retakes. PA schools average your retakes like MD schools, whereas DO schools honor grade replacements. Most PA schools require a 3.0, but the average matriculant has more like a 3.4. My CASPA (PA school app service) GPA would be in the low 2's due to retakes; my AACOMAS GPA is a 3.18 and climbing.

 

[Just Joshin]

That's true. There's ~140 PA programs across the US, and with an avg class size of 40, that's 5,600 seats to fill. There's 41 DO schools with a class size of ~200, so that's 8,000 seats to fill in comparison.

According to the AACOM, there are 5400 first-year DO students right now so your numbers are way off. Most DO schools don't reach 200 seats per class.

Also, it's completely doable to go right into MD/DO school right from college. PA schools are now requiring anywhere from 1,000-3,000 hours of paid hands-on healthcare experience on top of a bachelor's degree. So not only do you have to have your bachelor's taken care of, but you also have to go back to school for 1-2 years, certified in CNA, EMT-B, RN, RT, etc;

Since when does a CNA need 1-2 years of extra studying? EMT? Most people do that while still in school getting their Bachelor's, many med students included. In my class, we have over 50 former EMTs, PAs, CNAs, and RNs.

The biggest difference for us though, is the DO schools' stance on retakes. PA schools average your retakes like MD schools, whereas DO schools honor grade replacements. Most PA schools require a 3.0, but the average matriculant has more like a 3.4. My CASPA (PA school app service) GPA would be in the low 2's due to retakes; my AACOMAS GPA is a 3.18 and climbing.

That's the biggest difference? It isn't the requirement of an MCAT?

 

[TriagePreMed]

It's sort of expected. Wouldn't be surprised if it became harder than MD. There's not only very few programs, but there's also great competition from so many non-traditional students that wish to earn more money, not work many hours, do a 2 year training and start earning, acquire less debt, etc.

 

[ManBroDude]

According to the AACOM, there are 5400 first-year DO students right now so your numbers are way off. Most DO schools don't reach 200 seats per class.

I went off what he said. But you're right.

Since when does a CNA need 1-2 years of extra studying? EMT? Most people do that while still in school getting their Bachelor's, many med students included. In my class, we have over 50 former EMTs, PAs, CNAs, and RNs.

🙄 did you read what I wrote? How long do you think it takes to get a BSN?

That's the biggest difference? It isn't the requirement of an MCAT?

It takes 3-4 months to study for the MCAT, whereas it takes 2 mo for the GRE and at least 1,000 hours to get the required HCE.

 

[MedIsInMyBlood]

"Tougher" is subjective.

Someone may think standardized tests are hard. Somebody else may not.

Someone may think studying a few hours for their neuroscience and virology class every night is hard. Somebody else may not.

Someone may think putting in 1,000 hours of clinical experience is hard. Somebody else may not.

 

[Sinfest]

There's 41 DO schools with a class size of ~200, so that's 8,000 seats to fill in comparison.

There are ~30 DO schools, not 41

 

[MedStudentWanna]

.....

 

[MedStudentWanna]

🙄 did you read what I wrote? How long do you think it takes to get a BSN?

I read what you wrote. You said that they have to return to school for 1-2 years and get certification in CNA, RN, EMT, etc.

Why would they need to return to school for 1-2 years? If you're talking about people who didn't take science the first time around, the same can be said for non-traditionals in med school too.

It takes 3-4 months to study for the MCAT, whereas it takes 2 mo for the GRE and at least 1,000 hours to get the required HCE.

First off, I studied for the GRE for 6 days and scored a 1200. Second, some PA programs don't require a GRE score.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

So I applied to PA school last year at the end of the cycle... clearly I didn't get in, that's a good thing... Either way, nursing school in my state is harder to get into than med school. Primary reasons, the applicant pool is WAY larger for the number of seats, and they have fewer selection criteria (I should say criterion because it is singular, GPA). PA school is more similar to med school, GPA, hours worked/clinical exp, GRE, PS... But you have a larger applicant pool because of said factors. Because you have more people applying schools can be more choosy... Additionally, I think that in reality, I think many of the PA 'rejects' that go to med school were rejected because they want to be Drs but didn't want to do the time, you have to WANT to be a PA, not a Dr...

 

[deleted6669]

hard to compare the two because you are really looking at 2 different pools of applicants with different requirements-
DO requires the full range of pre-med coursework and mcats
PA requires prior medical experience and different prereqs

most folks prep for 1 or the other. a typical DO applicant would be a bad PA school applicant due to little prior experience and the wrong oursework and a typical PA school applicant would be a poor DO school applicant due to different preparation and a focus on hce.

there are approx 30 DO schools and over 150 PA programs but class sizes vary.
it's applying apples to oranges.

 

[Colbare]

I think undergrad GPA is a big decider for some people. I originally wanted to be a PA, but I decided not only that I wanted to be a doc instead, but that I'd have better chances since my GPA was so low. I felt like the MCAT would be what made me a strong applicant and it turned out to be just that. PA's I've talked to have emphasized the "bullet" they dodged known as the MCAT. Which once you've done decently in the pre-reqs and studied sufficiently, isn't so bad really when going DO.

PA and DO/MD have their advantages and disadvantages. I mainly wanted to avoid that acute treatment "glass ceiling" PAs can get stuck with.

 

[CopToEM]

It's difficult to compare two non-isomeric compounds. Same holds true for your question.

There are too many variables to say getting into [x] program is harder than getting into MD/DO programs. These threads pop up all the time and the conclusions are nearly the same. Even if you start to look at the statistics - total seats per applicant - there are at least a dozen other factors to consider.

PA programs are difficult to enter, in their own right, just like DO programs are difficult to enter. However, they're two entirely different beasts.

 

[Iswhatis]

Can someone explain to me why this is even a relevant thread?

 

[drctother]

Can someone explain to me why this is even a relevant thread?

At the end of the day, they are physician ASSISTANTS.....we will be physicians, so I could care less what they claim

 

[Dr Yiot]

the most difficult school to get into? hogwarts school of witchcraft and wizardry.

Yeah thats right, stole it from the other thread and used it here. But you know what? I think its harder to get into a school where you have to be flushed into a toilet and go through a different realm to get too. just saying😉

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Can someone explain to me why this is even a relevant thread?

My point exactly...We are dealing with premeds here!

 

[Maeby Funke]

The PA and accelerated BSN programs are getting so competitive because they're an easier route for people that want a career change. The avg sGPA at the schools around here is a 3.7 for both PA and nursing with acceptance rates below 10%. The avg. GRE scores are only 1230 though.

The programs also seem to give more credit to health care experience than med schools so having good stats isn't necessarily going to put you at an advantage over someone who's been working as an EMT for 6 years.

 

[Iswhatis]

The PA and accelerated BSN programs are getting so competitive because they're an easier route for people that want a career change. The avg sGPA at the schools around here is a 3.7 for both PA and nursing with acceptance rates below 10%. The avg. GRE scores are only 1230 though.

The programs also seem to give more credit to health care experience than med schools so having good stats isn't necessarily going to put you at an advantage over someone who's been working as an EMT for 6 years.

Dude. Your thread is garbage. Go away.

 

[Pisiform]

Dude, PA Program is far more easy to get in. Almost everybody in my class, even 'the douchcebags' got into PA program.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

People are comparing apples to oranges...First of all, some PA programs award AS degree such as MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE, couple programs in CA and one program in OHIO. Some of them award a BS. That means two year of prereqs is enough for these schools. Almost all PA programs do not require PHYSICS and ORGANIC II. No PA schools require applicants to take the MCAT. The last time I check, the MCAT is more difficult than the GRE. It would be extremely stupid to compare the two in terms of GPA average since most DO applicants take tougher classes than PA applicants. For instance, I know matriculated students in 2010 at one nursing school in FL have an average GPA of 3.85+. Does that mean it's tougher to get into that nursing school than MD/DO programs outhere? Of course not... GPA alone is not the determinant factor that make admission to one program tougher than another.

 

[patel2]

People are comparing apples to oranges...First of all, some PA programs award AS degree such as MIAMI-DADE COLLEGE, couple programs in CA and one program in OHIO. Some of them award a BS. That means two year of prereqs is enough for these schools. Almost all PA programs do not require PHYSICS and ORGANIC II. No PA schools require applicants to take the MCAT. The last time I check, the MCAT is more difficult than the GRE. It would be extremely stupid to compare the two in terms of GPA average since most DO applicants take tougher classes than PA applicants. For instance, I know matriculated students in 2010 at one nursing school in FL have an average GPA of 3.85+. Does that mean it's tougher to get into that nursing school than MD/DO programs outhere? Of course not... GPA alone is not the determinant factor that make admission to one program tougher than another.

this. lots of nursing, optometry and allied health professions have comparable GPAs to medical school. But people in this thread are really underestimating the beast of the test that is the mcat. I would be shocked if PA students could do better on the MCAT than DO or MD students.

 

[FireCloud9]

At UC Davis, in 2010, 1252 applied to the PA program, 9.1% interviewed, and 5.5% were offered admission.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/fnppa/frequently_asked_questions.html

The Samuel Merritt PA program had 1100 applicants for 52 admits (4%).

It's my understanding medical school admissions currently runs between 3-8%.

We can say that the UCD PA program is easier to apply to as it has lower requirements which would result in more applicants applying, but Harvard which has high requirements for admissions had 5,324 applicants (many more than the 1252 that applied for the UCD PA) for its 165 slots (3%) so difficulty of program and requirements really doesn't seem to mean much.

Some of the nursing programs in my area are highly impacted with 1000+ students applying for the 30 slots. That would be 3%.

When people say, "it's hard to get into" they don't necessarily mean difficulty of requirements, courses, or direct comparison between programs.

The average wait for nursing students to get into one of the programs in my region is 5yrs.

With all the budget cuts in CA, class reductions, etc. It wouldn't surprise me to see clinician programs with lower admissions rates than medical schools.

But if you really want to compare and see some truly low admissions numbers just try to get your kids into some of the local preschools! By comparison getting into Harvard Medical School is a walk in the park with a whopping 3% 🙂

All 3 of our kids were "wait listed" at the local Montessori for the past 9yrs. Just couldn't break that sub 1% admissions rate 🙂

Maybe if they took the MCAT they would have had a shot at Montessori....