Toxic or benign program?

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health3

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Would you choose a benign program where you don't do too much and don't learn as much clinically but gives you more time and energy to read, or would you choose a toxic program with lots of social patients, a wide variety of diseases, you learn a lot by experience, but it's also very stressful? Shall I save my energy for residency or make the most of my internship year? What are your thoughts?
 
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It seems that most of the residents I have come across that are in their specialty training say go with the easiest thing you can find
 
Thank you so much for your insight. Although I am very curious about seeing a variety of diseases and patients, and improving my clinical skills, I will seriously consider your advice. Maybe there is good stress and bad stress, and I'd like to avoid unnecessary stress, since internship is challenging enough in and of itself.

I've read in another forum that "except when it comes to learning procedures, patient volume-- and clinical medicine in general-- is overrated when it comes to actually learning medicine."

There's repetition for the purpose of learning, but there's also mindless repetition.

Hmmm, thank you again for your advice.
 
I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps, long ago, and I would rather do those four years, including boot camp, over again before I would do another internship year.

As many of my smarter friends did, find a benign program, stay away from toxicity. You learn your specialty in the later years of residency.

Just like water, take the path of least resistance. Your life will be better and your personality won't be poisoned, all while still learning how to be a doc, maybe even a more compassionate one.
 
Would you choose a benign program where you don't do too much and don't learn as much clinically but gives you more time and energy to read, or would you choose a toxic program with lots of social patients, a wide variety of diseases, you learn a lot by experience, but it's also very stressful? Shall I save my energy for residency or make the most of my internship year? What are your thoughts?

The former. The number of diseases that you have to see to actually "get" are relatively few. Moving the meat as a form of medical education is vastly overrated (and indicative of a program that is more concerned with revenue than education).

You'll be much better off in the long run at the end of an 8 or 10 hour day after having seen a handful of patients if you sit down and spend 2 or 3 hours reading about them and really solidifying your understanding of them while they are fresh in your mind than if you're there 12-14 hours and see 2-3 times that many.
 
Thank you all for your responses. The consensus seems to be that a benign program can be just as or even more educational than a toxic one, and a malignant program does not really contribute too much to being an effective doctor and may even detract from one's enthusiasm for medicine and even lifespan.

I really appreciate the wise advice of those with experience who can in hindsight see the most sensible path and guide us novices along the way.
 
You'll be much better off in the long run at the end of an 8 or 10 hour day after having seen a handful of patients if you sit down and spend 2 or 3 hours reading about them and really solidifying your understanding of them while they are fresh in your mind than if you're there 12-14 hours and see 2-3 times that many.

At my program interns work 12-14 hours a day and can carry a patient load of 15 people or more. During July I had 26 inpatients at one point! Naturally I went home exhausted every evening and would rather sleep than trying to stay awake for another hour and read. The only time I would open a book was when I had attendings yelling at me every day for not knowing everything about pathology of disease.
 
Would you choose a benign program where you don't do too much and don't learn as much clinically but gives you more time and energy to read, or would you choose a toxic program with lots of social patients, a wide variety of diseases, you learn a lot by experience, but it's also very stressful? Shall I save my energy for residency or make the most of my internship year? What are your thoughts?

hopefully you can find something in between, no? Personally, I can only learn so much by reading. Medicine is all about experience, seeing as much pathology as you can, and hearing how attendings and upper year residents put together a story and diagnosis.
 
You're right. Seeing a pathology would stimulate me to read and I'd remember better if I saw a disease within a context. I also thought that in medicine experience is everything. I'll listen closely to my residents/attendings and try to discover how they came to a diagnosis. Maybe it's obvious, but I've just deduced that in internship I'll have 3 teachers: the disease/patient (for the mystery), the books (for the facts/answers), and the residents/attendings (for learning the process of arriving at the correct answer). Thank you everybody for your advice.
 
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I think if you are doing something like derm, rad onc or maybe even radiology, then it probably doesn't make sense to get your a-- kicked with high volume during internship. However, if you are going to do something like neurology or certain surgical subspecialties or anesthesia, where you have to treat patients who are more acutely ill, then being worked a bit harder and seeing more pathology is probably worthwhile. Ideally you'd want a program that's in between...there is a point at which carrying more patients definitely becomes less educational. At the same time, I had a friend who did anesthesia who did medicine prelim somewhere where he didn't even go 1 ICU month during the intern year, and that was bad (later on...as he had to do MICU as a PGY2 and was expected to know stuff).
 
...At the same time, I had a friend who did anesthesia who did medicine prelim somewhere where he didn't even go 1 ICU month during the intern year, and that was bad (later on...as he had to do MICU as a PGY2 and was expected to know stuff).

Yeah, I would suggest that unless you have at least a few months of ICU (MICU or SICU), you don't really learn how to care for a critically ill or crashing patient, which is a huge hit to your medical education for most fields -- you simply will be missing out on that which you probably should emerge from internship knowing. You should find an internship which requires ICU, putting in lines, responding to Codes, some amount of call, etc. That will give you a broad general base of education on which you can build in any field -- which is pretty much the reason so many specialties require the non-specialty internship year in the first place. But after that, there's probably no reason not to go for whatever is easiest, has the least call, or the most elective time.

Do what makes sense -- if you are going to do optho or IR or maybe anesthesia where most of your life is going to be going to the OR, then a surgery prelim is probably not unreasonable. If you are going to do derm or rad onc or rads, a solid medical background could be helpful, so a prelim medicine year wouldn't be out of the question. A TY probably is adequate, and there's no real evidence that folks who took the easy road do any worse once they started their specialties. But you probably forfeit some of the "becoming a generalist first" reasoning that went into the decision to require an internship year in the first place, if you water that year down too much with a cushy TY. There's more to life than medicine, and so many people have good reasons for taking the easy route besides pure laziness. But I think it would be reasonable to assert that there is some personal benefit to doing a more challenging path.
 
I think there is certainly a balance to be struck between hands-on learning via experience and didactic learning through lectures, reading, etc. I agree with the others that what type of program you look for should depend on what exactly you want to get out of your PGY1 year. As mentioned above, for the specialty I am going into (neurology), it is really critical to have a good foundation in general medicine.

Another important consideration is the level of autonomy a program offers for its interns. This is somewhat hard to discern on interviews, but I believe that it is one of the most important aspects of internship and how you really learn to "be a doctor". It is critical to look for programs that offer a good balance of autonomy (i.e. getting to make management decisions on your own) and back-up support (i.e. residents, attendings who are not too hands-on but willing to be there if questions arise or an intern is struggling). Besides the medical knowledge, internship (and residency) is really about learning to be an independent practitioner of medicine. That means experiential learning that gives you the confidence to make reasonable management decisions.

Believe it or not, diagnosis is a relatively small part of internship. I spend much more of my time on patient management. This is difficult to explain here, but involves knowing what to do in various situations and permutations of disease presentation to find the best management for a particular patient. For example, diagnosing acute coronary syndrome is fairly straightforward. However, knowing when and who to start on a heparin drip, how to manage a patient whose chest pain isn't relieved by sublingual nitroglycerin, has rising troponins, and let's say has end-stage renal disease involves not only knowing the standard accepted treatments but knowing how and when to apply these to the patient's particular clinical situation. With the above example, for instance, you wouldn't want to give the patient morphine (you would use dilaudid, for example).

Another important aspect is seeing a bunch of presentation of the same or similar disease. This allows you to understand the breadth of disease presentation how how varying presentations are managed differently. For example, an individual with 3 vessel coronary artery disease may be better managed by CABG, but not in all cases, for example the patient with multiple comorbidities that might make surgery too risky. That patient might be better served by PCI with stents. The only way you really start to understand these complex management decisions is to see many, many presentations of disease and learn when and why you would manage different individuals uniquely.

A final additional consideration is the level of comfort you would like to gain with managing patients. For example, if you plan to moonlight in general medicine to make extra cash during residency, it may be to your advantage to have a solid prelim/transitional year under your belt so that you feel comfortable doing this. Also, depending on your residency choice, you may want a higher level of comfort at managing patients' medical issues (i.e. a neurology program in which neurology serves as the primary team for patients). As a PGY2, I know I will at times be called upon to manage both the neurologic and other non-neurologic medical problems.

In the end, I would definitely try to avoid a malignant program and strike a balance between rigor and happiness (for some, the two actually go hand-in-hand). Hope this helps! 🙂
 
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