tPA Malpractice Case: Agree or Disagree?

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I used to fight the same fight over tPA, but there simply was no benefit to me and only grief by fighting it.

The unfounded benefits of tPA are now so ingrained in Neurology training that it's considered standard of care, thus making it near impossible to design new studies for the purpose of verifying tPA's effectiveness. This has seeped into Emergency Medicine although I don't know if that could have been prevented.

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Results: 76 unique authors were identified in 5 policy statements. The prevalence of FCOI (Financial Conflicts of Interests) among authors of AAEM, ACEP, and AHA/ASA guidelines was 0%, 0%, and 35%, respectively. Post-publication increase in FCOI (Financial Conflicts of Interests) was 0% for authors of the AAEM and ACEP guidelines, and a 300% increase for authors of the 2013 AHA/ASA guidelines with data unavailable to assess post-publication FCOI for authors of the 2018 AHA/ASA guidelines. 2 authors were found to engage in new industry employment following recommendation publication. Finally, 9% (n = 3) authors of the 2013/2018 AHA/ASA guidelines were employees of the Genentech Speakers Bureau.

Things that make you go hmmm.
 
I work in Centers of Excellence of Peer Review. I know docs that have sent to peer review for things like admitting patients that had stroke symptoms for over a week but didn't consult neurolgoist in the ED, or patients that were found to incidental strokes on MRI that are not related to any symptoms that actually had.
And yes, these Peer Reviews have improved the QUALITY of our patients, as QUALITY is measured by consulting the maximum amount of consultants as soon they step into the ED.

So, yes, I consult our stroke neurologist for anything that is vaguely strokelike as I enjoy not spending my free time answering peer reviews. Quality is much more important than morbidity and mortality.
 
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I work in Centers of Excellence of Peer Review. I know docs that have sent to peer review for things like admitting patients that had stroke symptoms for over a week but didn't consult neurolgoist in the ED, or patients that were found to incidental strokes on MRI that are not related to any symptoms that actually had.
And yes, these Peer Reviews have improved the QUALITY of our patients, as QUALITY is measured by consulting the maximum amount of consultants as soon they step into the ED.

So, yes, I consult our stroke neurologist for anything that is vaguely strokelike as I enjoy not spending my free time answering peer reviews. Quality is much more important than morbidity and mortality.
I"m always puzzled by who exactly is insisting on consults like this. I mean, didn't specialists used to complain about unneccessary or inane consults? Or does neuro like getting woken up at 3am for "well I don't think it's really a stroke but the patient's out of state niece is a nursing assistant and told her that it could be....so I called an alert"
 
I"m always puzzled by who exactly is insisting on consults like this. I mean, didn't specialists used to complain about unneccessary or inane consults? Or does neuro like getting woken up at 3am for "well I don't think it's really a stroke but the patient's out of state niece is a nursing assistant and told her that it could be....so I called an alert"
The impulse to Monday morning quarterback is too strong for some to overcome.
 
The second was a 20 something yr old who appeared to just have a brief onset catatonic episode, or conversion disorder, or a very convincing malingerer (neuro asked that I push tPA on him despite normal CT/CTA, and symmetrical withdraw to pain, I refused). MRI, EEG, LP all normal. He just woke up 5 hours into his ER stay and left AMA after I had already got him admitted.

Crazy. Had the same case 2 weeks ago. 30yo came in catatonic from jail. Only responded to surprise noxious stimuli and then only minimal withdrawal. Labs, UDS, CTH, CTA all neg. Kept asking him to look up in case of pontine stroke but nothing. VS stable. Admitted him and 6 hours later all of a sudden he just starts talking completely fine and asks where the bathroom is. He couldn't leave AMA though because...jail
 
Crazy. Had the same case 2 weeks ago. 30yo came in catatonic from jail. Only responded to surprise noxious stimuli and then only minimal withdrawal. Labs, UDS, CTH, CTA all neg. Kept asking him to look up in case of pontine stroke but nothing. VS stable. Admitted him and 6 hours later all of a sudden he just starts talking completely fine and asks where the bathroom is. He couldn't leave AMA though because...jail
Incarceritis (a/k/a an older term - "jailitis") is a woeful, woeful condition. It's right up there with "the handcuffs are too tight!".
 
Incarceritis (a/k/a an older term - "jailitis") is a woeful, woeful condition. It's right up there with "the handcuffs are too tight!".

This is by far one of the worst/most difficult aspects of our profession to me. If there's anything that grinds my gears, it's being manipulated by secondary gainers. Even worse still when they're enabled by family members at bedside.
 
This is by far one of the worst/most difficult aspects of our profession to me. If there's anything that grinds my gears, it's being manipulated by secondary gainers. Even worse still when they're enabled by family members at bedside.
Lol, I had the mother of a pseudopseudoseizure patient (what I call the malingerers that are doing it for secondary gain rather than it being a stress reaction) who came in for the 4th time in a week for her “episodes”. I had already seen them earlier in the week and told the mother that her daughter was having pseudoseizures which of course the mother was furious about the diagnosis stating “the ‘epilepsy’ blogs told me you would say that“. She had traveled an hour to our hospital because all the hospitals around them reportedly refused to see the patient anymore. So the second time I saw them for the same “seizures” that I was able to stop by completely ignoring her and calmly talking with the mother while the mother is panicking while the patient flailed on the bed in a terrible impression of seizure. The patient clearly annoyed that I am giving her no attention, stops seizing, and in an attempt to feign a post ictal phase sits up immediately after the “seizures” stopped and says “Dr. Zebra Hunter, who is that next to you?” Speaking of her mother.

To which I reply “So you can remember my name but can’t remember your mother?”

“That’s my mother? I don’t recognize her.”

To which her mother responds “How can that be pseudoseizures doctor? She can’t even recognize me.”

I then give her a long spiel about how stress reactions can manifest differently, and trying to put in the kindest way possible that her daughter is not experiencing organic seizures. Also discuss how I would strongly encourage she see a psychiatrist which of course gets the mother even more mad.

Then she starts doing this cyclical line of questioning that all psych patients do when you explain to them that their symptoms are likely a somatization. “But how can you explain her not recognizing me?”

“Ma’am like mentioned before, stress reactions can manifest in many different ways...”

“Yeah, you’ve already said that, but there is no way that pseudoseizures can cause her to forget me, how can you explain that?”

“Ma’am, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, pseudoseizures are also a physical manifestation of stress reactions.”

“But look at her, she’s not even stressed. How can you explain her not knowing me?”

At this point I’m just fed up with the stupidity of the patient and mother and the ridiculous patient satisfaction facade I had put up that clearly is going nowhere with them and I finally said , “Ma’am it is because your daughter is faking this. All of it. I don’t have a definitive reason why, but I can tell by your reaction here that it is likely because you give her so much attention every time she has an episode.”

At this point the room blows up, the patient is yelling that she is going to ****ing kill me, the mother yelling at me for being a terrible doctor, and I turn around to cover my smile while I grab the charge to call security to escort the patient and mother out for threatening me.
 
Crazy. Had the same case 2 weeks ago. 30yo came in catatonic from jail. Only responded to surprise noxious stimuli and then only minimal withdrawal. Labs, UDS, CTH, CTA all neg. Kept asking him to look up in case of pontine stroke but nothing. VS stable. Admitted him and 6 hours later all of a sudden he just starts talking completely fine and asks where the bathroom is. He couldn't leave AMA though because...jail
Incarceritis (a/k/a an older term - "jailitis") is a woeful, woeful condition. It's right up there with "the handcuffs are too tight!".
This is by far one of the worst/most difficult aspects of our profession to me. If there's anything that grinds my gears, it's being manipulated by secondary gainers. Even worse still when they're enabled by family members at bedside.

A few years back I had a (non-incarcerated) patient with a rather convincing stroke presentation but I was very confident that it was being faked. Nevertheless I was not able to convince the rest of the team it wasn't a stroke & I'm getting pressured to give tPA, so I start to consent the patient:

"I'm very concerned about you. A lot of things can cause your body to act this way, but only one of them is a stroke. To treat a stroke we may need to give you a medicine that could cause you to start bleeding into your brain which could cause you to die, or worse, spend the rest of your life paralyzed and unable to speak. But if...IF you can start talking and moving your arm THEN I won't have to give you this medicine that could cause you to bleed to death into your brain. I'm going to come back and check on you in just a minute."

It was a miraculous cure.
 
Lol, I had the mother of a pseudopseudoseizure patient (what I call the malingerers that are doing it for secondary gain rather than it being a stress reaction) who came in for the 4th time in a week for her “episodes”. I had already seen them earlier in the week and told the mother that her daughter was having pseudoseizures which of course the mother was furious about the diagnosis stating “the ‘epilepsy’ blogs told me you would say that“. She had traveled an hour to our hospital because all the hospitals around them reportedly refused to see the patient anymore. So the second time I saw them for the same “seizures” that I was able to stop by completely ignoring her and calmly talking with the mother while the mother is panicking while the patient flailed on the bed in a terrible impression of seizure. The patient clearly annoyed that I am giving her no attention, stops seizing, and in an attempt to feign a post ictal phase sits up immediately after the “seizures” stopped and says “Dr. Zebra Hunter, who is that next to you?” Speaking of her mother.

To which I reply “So you can remember my name but can’t remember your mother?”

“That’s my mother? I don’t recognize her.”

To which her mother responds “How can that be pseudoseizures doctor? She can’t even recognize me.”

I then give her a long spiel about how stress reactions can manifest differently, and trying to put in the kindest way possible that her daughter is not experiencing organic seizures. Also discuss how I would strongly encourage she see a psychiatrist which of course gets the mother even more mad.

Then she starts doing this cyclical line of questioning that all psych patients do when you explain to them that their symptoms are likely a somatization. “But how can you explain her not recognizing me?”

“Ma’am like mentioned before, stress reactions can manifest in many different ways...”

“Yeah, you’ve already said that, but there is no way that pseudoseizures can cause her to forget me, how can you explain that?”

“Ma’am, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, pseudoseizures are also a physical manifestation of stress reactions.”

“But look at her, she’s not even stressed. How can you explain her not knowing me?”

At this point I’m just fed up with the stupidity of the patient and mother and the ridiculous patient satisfaction facade I had put up that clearly is going nowhere with them and I finally said , “Ma’am it is because your daughter is faking this. All of it. I don’t have a definitive reason why, but I can tell by your reaction here that it is likely because you give her so much attention every time she has an episode.”

At this point the room blows up, the patient is yelling that she is going to ****ing kill me, the mother yelling at me for being a terrible doctor, and I turn around to cover my smile while I grab the charge to call security to escort the patient and mother out for threatening me.

What do you document in a case like this?
 
“Malingering” as a diagnosis and then state that the patient threatened to kill myself and had to be escorted out by security for mine and staffs safety.

IME PNES requires a degree of handholding that there just isn't time for in the ED. I have a very favorable response rate for my PNES counseling, but it's typically in the setting of a kid being admitted for neurotele which is unfairly advantageous as I get some automatic baseline credo that I'm taking the complaint seriously. Don't envy you all trying to do that in the midst of 2-3 pph
 
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IME PNES requires a degree of handholding that there just isn't time for in the ED. I have a very favorable response rate for my PNES counseling, but it's typically in the setting of a kid being admitted for neurotele which is unfairly advantageous as I get some automatic baseline credo that I'm taking the complaint seriously. Don't envy you all trying to do that in the midst of 2-3 pph
Malingering is an exclusion to a PNES diagnosis which this patient clearly was demonstrating. Most true PNES patients receive the information well as long as there are no over-anxious family members present that will frequently make discussions extremely difficult.

Also important to note that this patient was 25 years old, not a child.
 
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I've found out that in Cerner I don't put "malingering" or "drug seeking behavior" as a diagnosis until the patient has left the department. When the nurse prints the DC instructions, it auto-populates with any diagnoses on the chart. I found out the hard way a couple times when patients complained about their accurate diagnosis.
 
I wonder how many more times we can get PNES into this thread? The thread isn't about PNES, but it's parallel to PNES and you could even say this thread wraps around PNES pretty tightly. That said, I'd really prefer if we confined the discussion to adult PNES because I'm rather uncomfortable talking about childrens' PNES.
 
I've found out that in Cerner I don't put "malingering" or "drug seeking behavior" as a diagnosis until the patient has left the department. When the nurse prints the DC instructions, it auto-populates with any diagnoses on the chart. I found out the hard way a couple times when patients complained about their accurate diagnosis.

Reason #328 why it's okay to hate the muggles.
 
I've found out that in Cerner I don't put "malingering" or "drug seeking behavior" as a diagnosis until the patient has left the department. When the nurse prints the DC instructions, it auto-populates with any diagnoses on the chart. I found out the hard way a couple times when patients complained about their accurate diagnosis.

That makes two of us. I also learned my lesson now and do the same.
 
A few years back I had a (non-incarcerated) patient with a rather convincing stroke presentation but I was very confident that it was being faked. Nevertheless I was not able to convince the rest of the team it wasn't a stroke & I'm getting pressured to give tPA, so I start to consent the patient:

"I'm very concerned about you. A lot of things can cause your body to act this way, but only one of them is a stroke. To treat a stroke we may need to give you a medicine that could cause you to start bleeding into your brain which could cause you to die, or worse, spend the rest of your life paralyzed and unable to speak. But if...IF you can start talking and moving your arm THEN I won't have to give you this medicine that could cause you to bleed to death into your brain. I'm going to come back and check on you in just a minute."

It was a miraculous cure.

You've got skills man. I think we need a whole thread on strategies to deal with people who are a-holes and/or present with family members who are a-holes, without generating a complaint to admin.
 
You've got skills man. I think we need a whole thread on strategies to deal with people who are a-holes and/or present with family members who are a-holes, without generating a complaint to admin.
Aww shucks.

That would be a great thread. Lots of clinical wisdom in this forum - we could all benefit.
 
Lol, I had the mother of a pseudopseudoseizure patient (what I call the malingerers that are doing it for secondary gain rather than it being a stress reaction) who came in for the 4th time in a week for her “episodes”. I had already seen them earlier in the week and told the mother that her daughter was having pseudoseizures which of course the mother was furious about the diagnosis stating “the ‘epilepsy’ blogs told me you would say that“. She had traveled an hour to our hospital because all the hospitals around them reportedly refused to see the patient anymore. So the second time I saw them for the same “seizures” that I was able to stop by completely ignoring her and calmly talking with the mother while the mother is panicking while the patient flailed on the bed in a terrible impression of seizure. The patient clearly annoyed that I am giving her no attention, stops seizing, and in an attempt to feign a post ictal phase sits up immediately after the “seizures” stopped and says “Dr. Zebra Hunter, who is that next to you?” Speaking of her mother.

To which I reply “So you can remember my name but can’t remember your mother?”

“That’s my mother? I don’t recognize her.”

To which her mother responds “How can that be pseudoseizures doctor? She can’t even recognize me.”

I then give her a long spiel about how stress reactions can manifest differently, and trying to put in the kindest way possible that her daughter is not experiencing organic seizures. Also discuss how I would strongly encourage she see a psychiatrist which of course gets the mother even more mad.

Then she starts doing this cyclical line of questioning that all psych patients do when you explain to them that their symptoms are likely a somatization. “But how can you explain her not recognizing me?”

“Ma’am like mentioned before, stress reactions can manifest in many different ways...”

“Yeah, you’ve already said that, but there is no way that pseudoseizures can cause her to forget me, how can you explain that?”

“Ma’am, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying, pseudoseizures are also a physical manifestation of stress reactions.”

“But look at her, she’s not even stressed. How can you explain her not knowing me?”

At this point I’m just fed up with the stupidity of the patient and mother and the ridiculous patient satisfaction facade I had put up that clearly is going nowhere with them and I finally said , “Ma’am it is because your daughter is faking this. All of it. I don’t have a definitive reason why, but I can tell by your reaction here that it is likely because you give her so much attention every time she has an episode.”

At this point the room blows up, the patient is yelling that she is going to ****ing kill me, the mother yelling at me for being a terrible doctor, and I turn around to cover my smile while I grab the charge to call security to escort the patient and mother out for threatening me.
All of my pseudoseizure patients get large gauge nasal trumpets. You know. For airway protection.
 
All of my pseudoseizure patients get large gauge nasal trumpets. You know. For airway protection.
Eh, I avoid noxious stimuli unless there is actually a clinical conundrum and then usually it is just squirting saline up their nose or on their eye. Occasionally I do this even if I know it is just a pseudoseizure if a family member or nurse is freaking out and logic and my medical expertise are not enough to calm them down.
 
All of my pseudoseizure patients get large gauge nasal trumpets. You know. For airway protection.
When I was a resident, my Peds EM attending grabbed the face of a pseudoseizing teenager, jaw thrusted, and yelled, "I am protecting your airway!" Kid yelped, eyes bugged out, and paused the seizing act for a few seconds. I found it brilliant.
 
100% need a CTA. You can't rule out a basilar artery occlusion with enough confidence by a clinical examination of a near comatose patient. If CT & CTA don't yield an explanation this is 99.9999% not a stroke, the only other option pretty much being a stroke of Artery of Percheron which would be incredibly rare. Would probably LP and pursue EEG before the MRI as well, but that is in part due to poor availability of immediate MRI's at my institution.
 
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