Tragic death during dental procedure

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How common is sedation for dental implants? I have 2 family members who have them and none ever got sedation.

Setting expectations is probably a huge part of it. It's pretty easy to block the areas for dental implant with local. A lot of dental procedures can be done without any sedation, unless the patient had some sort of developmental delay or can't follow commands, extreme anxiety, or something unusual.

When I was in college I had my wisdom teeth taken out with nitrous sedation (and probably some IV sedation as well) because that's what the dentist wanted and I wasn't even given an option. It was a well tuned production at this facility, and they had anesthesia staff. More recently my wife had hers taken out with only local, and she said while it was a little bit more uncomfortable it wasn't bad.

Dentists deal with a lot of cash business especially when offering sedation, and i imagine with a lot of cash exchanging hands there is a strong desire for a seamless experience. So a little extra versed, a little extra fentanyl, or ketamine, or propofol, or whatever because it's never been a problem until that one time when it is.
 
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Wow. Dental assistant can monitor anesthesia…. Doesn’t even need to be a RN. I am surprised that nursing board isn’t all over this. But I suppose they need some sort of education (?) to be a dental assistant?
I am sort of speechless and blown away right now. Are you telling me, if a MA, let’s say acls trained, can monitor sedation under the supervision of a gastroenterologist?

Wat da fuk?
 

The dental surgeons seem worried

They just seem pissed off that they might have some actual standards of practice. So many of their comments are so tone deaf to the situation it makes me question whether they are robots. Patients are dying on the dental chair and they are complaining about how the backlash might impede their usual way of doing things.
 
That’s so weird. I always thought (and have witnesses myself) that Narcan and flumazenil reverse the effects of these respiratory depressing drugs that likely were used.

I must have been misinformed.

Bro, even if it was versed and fentanyl OD, the narcan and flumazrnil can't work when the heart isn't beating.
 
They just seem pissed off that they might have some actual standards of practice. So many of their comments are so tone deaf to the situation it makes me question whether they are robots. Patients are dying on the dental chair and they are complaining about how the backlash might impede their usual way of doing things.

They just don’t know what they don’t know I suppose. I still couldn’t get over the fact that a dental assistant can do what I trained for 4 years, with a certificate…. The fact the dentists are cheerful that they don’t need to hire a RN is seriously blowing my mind.

I now actually have lots of respect for those dentists who actual bring kids dental rehab to the surgicenter….. sure it may be a sham, but at least they know better to do those in their offices.
 
I can see laryngospasm happening, patient positioned poorly and blood and secretions, no muscle relaxation, no oral airway, an attempt at bag mask but someone who has not masked in years, attempt at intubation without relaxation, I think the oral surgeon thought surgical trach was the only thing left. Unfortunately if you can’t mask or intubated, probably don’t have the technical skills to do a trach.
 
I can see laryngospasm happening, patient positioned poorly and blood and secretions, no muscle relaxation, no oral airway, an attempt at bag mask but someone who has not masked in years, attempt at intubation without relaxation, I think the oral surgeon thought surgical trach was the only thing left. Unfortunately if you can’t mask or intubated, probably don’t have the technical skills to do a trach.

We've all seen how quickly **** can go down with laryngospasm. This guy should have given some propofol and suxx with PPV.. rather than waste time trying to intubate and then waste even more time trying to crash trach.. both things he probably have little training to perform.
 
We've all seen how quickly **** can go down with laryngospasm. This guy should have given some propofol and suxx with PPV.. rather than waste time trying to intubate and then waste even more time trying to crash trach.. both things he probably have little training to perform.


Yeah that’s the common solution to a common problem if you’re a qualified anesthesiologist or CRNA.
 
Any else think dental surgery=airway surgery=relatively high risk?

Yet it seems like some dentists are incredibly cavalier about it.
Absolutely, high risk.

I was thinking about this the other day in the pain clinic, did an cervical RFA, asked the nurse to give some IV sedation for this guy, he was obese, giant neck, obviously reduced ROM since he’s getting an RFA, OSA and sensitive to meds, I did very mild sedation, but very easy to see how even something that’s supposed to be “just sedation” could go astray.
 
Absolutely. The scariest rooms are bronchs and dental. At least in ENT cases ENT is right there.

Unless it’s some fuqing private guy who hasn’t been to the hospital for “a while”.

I also like the fact the dental guys will give me a “five minute warning…” as if now I can “just” turn off anesthesia and patient will “just” wake up.
 
Any else think dental surgery=airway surgery=relatively high risk?

Yet it seems like some dentists are incredibly cavalier about it.

For this office based dental unprotected airway stuff anything more than light sedation is cavalier especially if they've done fewer intubations than a ca1 in August. That means no propofol and no ketamine
 
Any else think dental surgery=airway surgery=relatively high risk?

Yet it seems like some dentists are incredibly cavalier about it.
My little boy needs dental work, probably under anesthesia. The dental office has a modern anesthesia machine and a dental anesthesiologist. He intubates. Yet I am still so scared. Bring him to the children's hospital is a huge hassle.
 


These cases happen with CRNA's as well. This was in my home state recently. Nursing board is a joke.

Lifeguard anesthesia. CRNAs let loose. There js a thread on this case a few months back.

 
I have no dog in this race, as I do not offer sedation to patients. I am wondering, however, if oral surgeons are undertrained to perform anesthesia and CRNA have a "license to kill" and are also under trained. What is the solution? There are millions of dental sedations done a year, taking patients to an OR is not feasible as dental and medical insurance won't cover it, there are also not enough MD anesthesiologists to go around. What do we do with these patients? Yes there are unnecessary deaths occurring, but is there a solution?
I would venture to guess there are many more deaths associated with MD anesthesiologists performing "straight forward" sedation on ASA 1/2 patients associated with user error (granted there are also many more sedations). But I am not certain, these cases do not make the news as it's not as sexy as patient dies during routine dental care.
 
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I have no dog in this race, as I do not offer sedation to patients. I am wondering, however, if oral surgeons are undertrained to perform anesthesia and CRNA have a "license to kill" and are also under trained. What is the solution? There are millions of dental sedations done a year, taking patients to an OR is not feasible as dental and medical insurance won't cover it, there are also not enough MD anesthesiologists to go around. What do we do with these patients? Yes there are unnecessary deaths occurring, but is there a solution?
I would venture to guess there are many more deaths associated with MD anesthesiologists performing "straight forward" sedation on ASA 1/2 patients associated with user error (granted there are also many more sedations). But I am not certain, these cases do not make the news as it's not as sexy as patient dies during routine dental care.
I think your assumption is way off—it would be a serious problem if an asa 1/2 died during a procedure.

I would turn the question around and ask are these millions of dental anesthetics necessary or more of a keep the cash paying customer happy fee for service exchange? If these anesthetics weren’t compensated would you all still do them just because you had to in Order to get the procedure done? Do you routinely refer many patients to other dentists who do use sedation because you don’t offer that service?
 
I have no dog in this race, as I do not offer sedation to patients. I am wondering, however, if oral surgeons are undertrained to perform anesthesia and CRNA have a "license to kill" and are also under trained. What is the solution? There are millions of dental sedations done a year, taking patients to an OR is not feasible as dental and medical insurance won't cover it, there are also not enough MD anesthesiologists to go around. What do we do with these patients? Yes there are unnecessary deaths occurring, but is there a solution?

Let me unpack everything you are saying and offer my perspective. I'm curious how many patients that receive sedation for dental procedures truly need sedation at the depth that is provided that can lead to disaster? It's hard to kill a breathing patient, and it's even harder to kill a breathing conscious patient. Trouble begins when a depth of anesthesia is chosen that can lead to apnea or airway obstruction or laryngospasm. That's an unconscious sedation and much more likely to happen with potent sedatives such as propofol. You ever read the label on a propofol vial? It says you better be damn sure how to manage an airway when you use this drug.

A common theme with dental deaths involving dentists is lack of a dedicated individual monitoring the anesthesia and vital signs leading to delayed recognition of crisis (inadequate personnel) combined with lack of training and skills to manage the crisis (inadequate training). When was the last time you intubated a patient? When was the last time you broke a severe larynogspasm? Or gave narcan? These are life and death situations where seconds matter. Not a time for a fumbling person trying to figure things out. If you give sedatives these are the scenarios you must prepare for. Add on this a lack of equipment, supplies and drugs that can be used to rescue the patient, something that is all too common in an office based environment (inadequate equipment).

You seem to imply that since bad outcomes can happen even when an anesthesia provider is present, why bother? That of course is a warped and fatalistic way of thinking. I mean people die in car crashes even with seat belts and air bags, so maybe we shouldn't bother using them either?

I dont believe I have to actually explain this: Having trained anesthesia personnel present to administer the anesthetic and monitor the patient makes things safer. Someone who knows how to deal with crisis situations. Someone who knows how to manage advanced airways. For routine care in a reasonably healthy patient it probably doesn't matter too much if it is an anesthesiologist or an anesthesia assistant, a nurse anesthetist or a dental anesthesiologist as long as they are vigilant and uptodate with their skills. The issue of inadequate training came up with CRNA Tory which reflects a lack of insight and understanding of laser + oxygen bad. I wouldn't say CRNAs have a "license to kill" but nurse Tory certainly does. And of course the issue of inadequate equipment might still exist (and hopefully the anesthesia provider has their own set of tools and not necessarily rely on what is at the office).

So to answer your first point: 1. Maybe you don't need to deeply sedate so many patients, set some reasonable expectations with your patients if you want to go it alone 2. Better to have an anesthesia provider, 3. Get acceptable equipment and drugs

I would venture to guess there are many more deaths associated with MD anesthesiologists performing "straight forward" sedation on ASA 1/2 patients associated with user error (granted there are also many more sedations). But I am not certain, these cases do not make the news as it's not as sexy as patient dies during routine dental care.

You pulled this claim out of nowhere. So your claim is that a trained anesthesia provider is more likely to make an anesthesia error leading to death than a dentist with minimal anesthesia training balancing both procedure and anesthetic? Get out of here. You also venture a guess that the moon is made of cheese? Ridiculous.

While you might seem to think things get buried under the rug, having a healthy patient die under anesthesia is a huge deal in the medical world. It is scrutinized more than you can imagine,, even if it doesn't involve "user error". Bottom line an unforced anesthetjc error leading to the death of a healthy patient for elective surgery is exceedingly rare. Data on such serious outcomes is collected in a database, and if your dental boards collect data on all the patients that die from dental anesthesia, maybe a good side to side comparison can be made.
 
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I think your assumption is way off—it would be a serious problem if an asa 1/2 died during a procedure.

I would turn the question around and ask are these millions of dental anesthetics necessary or more of a keep the cash paying customer happy fee for service exchange? If these anesthetics weren’t compensated would you all still do them just because you had to in Order to get the procedure done? Do you routinely refer many patients to other dentists who do use sedation because you don’t offer that service?
I agree with you. Why does dental implant, tooth extraction need anesthesia?

Labor patients are in pain and anxious as hell. They get nothing for epidural placement.

Other than little children and mentally challenged, you don't need anesthesia for routine dental procedures.
 
I have no dog in this race, as I do not offer sedation to patients. I am wondering, however, if oral surgeons are undertrained to perform anesthesia and CRNA have a "license to kill" and are also under trained. What is the solution? There are millions of dental sedations done a year, taking patients to an OR is not feasible as dental and medical insurance won't cover it, there are also not enough MD anesthesiologists to go around. What do we do with these patients? Yes there are unnecessary deaths occurring, but is there a solution?
I would venture to guess there are many more deaths associated with MD anesthesiologists performing "straight forward" sedation on ASA 1/2 patients associated with user error (granted there are also many more sedations). But I am not certain, these cases do not make the news as it's not as sexy as patient dies during routine dental care.

Couple things here.

1) Healthy patients dying under anesthesia absolutely makes the news. Hell, even healthy patients dying a week after anesthesia makes the news (see recent threads here). The fact that there are similar or less stories than from the dental world, despite case numbers being an order of magnitude higher, should tell you plenty. The "best of the best" in the dental world, the anesthesia-trained OMFS guys, get 6 months of anesthesia training. Ask anyone here if they would let someone halfway through their CA1 year take care of a loved one solo.

2) The best thing dentists can do is to take an honest, objective look at their own data, and make the right decision for the patient, and not their bottom line. Admittedly, it's a hard thing to do. After enough time, people can start to talk themselves into a lot of stuff. But we do tons of peds dental in our children's OR, and a lot of it sure seems cosmetic. But, I don't know the data. Maybe those kids die less frequently overall because they have less bacterial endocarditis, or sepsis from an abscess, or something. But we don't seem to see a lot of that in our PICU, either.
 
Feel like I need to shed light on this. Complications happen, even with Anesthesiologists. The average oral surgeon will have performed 10’s of thousands of sedations by the time their career is over with no fatalities. I personally have encountered 100’s of Oral Surgeons, none have killed a patient. We do about 8 sedations a day in our clinic. No resident since inception has ever had someone did. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons are well trained and spend their entire careers providing moderate sedation on primary healthy ASA 1/2 patients. Patient selection is everything.

There is always variability in programs and rotations and from resident to resident experience. Below is a description of what a general experience is like. Its pretty consistent with most OMFS programs

“5-6 Months General Anesthesia with 1-2 months dedicated to Pediatric Anesthesia.

Main OR
In the main OR you are assisted and taught by the CRNA's/other anesthesia residents the first month, but you do everything. You will learn to start A-Lines, place central lines, etc. They are there to guide you and assist you so you will be ready to run your own rooms for the remaining 4 months.


250+ Intubations and General Anesthetics for all sorts of cases except for transplant/cardiac and OB. Did 10 TIVAS as well.
This included 30+ True blind-awake nasal intubations, 10 blind asleep nasal intubations, a multitude of Fiberoptic intubations, rapid-sequence intubations use of MACS and MILLERS, use of Glydescopes, Lighted Stylets, and Shikani stylets. Wednesdays and Fridays you did the anesthesia for the OMFS cases. The rest of the days were generally for ENT/Plastics/General Surgery/Gyn-Onc/and Ortho. Did a couple regional anesthetic cases and a couple spinals/epidurals just for the experience (but also not really by choice... kinda got stuck there). One of our OMFS faculty was also trained as an Anesthesiologist, so he staffs our GA Cases on wednesdays in the main OR. He's really an airway guru who can teach you a lot. ( He staffs our sedation clinic once a week as well for GA's in the clinic).

Peds Anesthesia Rotation
The peds anesthesia rotation took place in our eye-hospital with high volume cases. Most cases are on healthier kids (more relevant for the OMFS) vs being in the main-or on very sick pedo cases. These kids were there for ENT related things Tonsils/Tubes/Adenoids and Opthalmology things (Exams under anesthesia/eye enucleations/strabismus surgery etc) My youngest intubations were 3-4 months old with average age between 1-4 years of age. Many cases were sevo-mask/open airway ranging anywhere from 5-70 minutes. My log-book numbers here were 20 intubations, 10 LMAs, and 65 pure SEVO-MASK GAs.

After the Pedo's were done for the day we then assisted with the adult cases. I did around 100 IV Sedations/MACs for adults that month as well.

OMFS Clinic and Non Anesthesia Service:
We are very fortunate our main clinic has 3 operatories equipped with 3 GA Machines so 2x/week we still continue our GA skills. We still continue to do IV Sedation as well in that clinic, but they really want us to do GA cases there for continued practice... Some people have even done retro-grade intubations in the clinic. Another OMFS attending of ours also did a 1 year fellowship after residency, so he staffs Pedo cases and GA's as well. The rest of the attendings typically staff IV cases.

In our 2 other clinics where we primarily operate on our attending's private patients the anesthesia experience is more the traditional IV Sedation using Midazolam, Fentanyl, Propofol, Ketamine modalities. Some attendings give you freedom to push drugs on your own, others are very specific with no-freedom as to how/when/what/how-much you give. In those clinics patients are sedated almost every day in a private practice fashion... multiple cases throughout the day.

The ER
Senior OMFS are also called to the ER to do Pedi-Sedations under the "er attending supervision" for our OMFS related ER consults if needed. These are typically Glyco-Midaz-Ketamine darts for quick procedures in the ER. Hardest part here is dealing with the NPO status or dealing with newer attendings not as comfortable with these situations.


Personally, I feel pretty well trained from this experience, but this is one area that you cannot get slack on. No matter what you have to keep learning and keep practicing. Most people won't intubate when they go their private offices, but they should still take the opportunity in the OR to intubate and keep those skills fresh.

This is probably one of the most important services we as OMFS can provide to the public and the dental community, but its also one of the ways that we can have negative effects too. We have a great safety track-record historically with death/adverse complication approaching 1 in 750,000 to 1,000,000 anesthetics administered by OMFS. Lets not only keep it that way, lets strive to improve it and continue to be the envy of our counterparts.”

I'm two years out of residency, and I don't have near the confidence you have. Think about that. You don't know what you don't know.
 
Personally, I feel pretty well trained from this experience, but this is one area that you cannot get slack on. No matter what you have to keep learning and keep practicing. Most people won't intubate when they go their private offices, but they should still take the opportunity in the OR to intubate and keep those skills fresh.

Thank you for sharing that experience. This is the part that I worry about. After that 6 months, does anyone actually practice airway management? I will be honest here, after a 2 week vacation, I can still use a few hours to get back to my rhythm, including intubation. Hack, even a few days in the GI center, where I don’t intubate, it can be weird to go back to the big house. How does a dentist(oral surgeon) in question who started practice 20 years ago (2001) keep his skills up and keep his cool when poo hits the fan? He can’t.
 
Feel like I need to shed light on this. Complications happen, even with Anesthesiologists. The average oral surgeon will have performed 10’s of thousands of sedations by the time their career is over with no fatalities. I personally have encountered 100’s of Oral Surgeons, none have killed a patient. We do about 8 sedations a day in our clinic. No resident since inception has ever had someone did. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons are well trained and spend their entire careers providing moderate sedation on primary healthy ASA 1/2 patients. Patient selection is everything.

There is always variability in programs and rotations and from resident to resident experience. Below is a description of what a general experience is like. Its pretty consistent with most OMFS programs

“5-6 Months General Anesthesia with 1-2 months dedicated to Pediatric Anesthesia.

Main OR
In the main OR you are assisted and taught by the CRNA's/other anesthesia residents the first month, but you do everything. You will learn to start A-Lines, place central lines, etc. They are there to guide you and assist you so you will be ready to run your own rooms for the remaining 4 months.


250+ Intubations and General Anesthetics for all sorts of cases except for transplant/cardiac and OB. Did 10 TIVAS as well.
This included 30+ True blind-awake nasal intubations, 10 blind asleep nasal intubations, a multitude of Fiberoptic intubations, rapid-sequence intubations use of MACS and MILLERS, use of Glydescopes, Lighted Stylets, and Shikani stylets. Wednesdays and Fridays you did the anesthesia for the OMFS cases. The rest of the days were generally for ENT/Plastics/General Surgery/Gyn-Onc/and Ortho. Did a couple regional anesthetic cases and a couple spinals/epidurals just for the experience (but also not really by choice... kinda got stuck there). One of our OMFS faculty was also trained as an Anesthesiologist, so he staffs our GA Cases on wednesdays in the main OR. He's really an airway guru who can teach you a lot. ( He staffs our sedation clinic once a week as well for GA's in the clinic).

Peds Anesthesia Rotation
The peds anesthesia rotation took place in our eye-hospital with high volume cases. Most cases are on healthier kids (more relevant for the OMFS) vs being in the main-or on very sick pedo cases. These kids were there for ENT related things Tonsils/Tubes/Adenoids and Opthalmology things (Exams under anesthesia/eye enucleations/strabismus surgery etc) My youngest intubations were 3-4 months old with average age between 1-4 years of age. Many cases were sevo-mask/open airway ranging anywhere from 5-70 minutes. My log-book numbers here were 20 intubations, 10 LMAs, and 65 pure SEVO-MASK GAs.

After the Pedo's were done for the day we then assisted with the adult cases. I did around 100 IV Sedations/MACs for adults that month as well.

OMFS Clinic and Non Anesthesia Service:
We are very fortunate our main clinic has 3 operatories equipped with 3 GA Machines so 2x/week we still continue our GA skills. We still continue to do IV Sedation as well in that clinic, but they really want us to do GA cases there for continued practice... Some people have even done retro-grade intubations in the clinic. Another OMFS attending of ours also did a 1 year fellowship after residency, so he staffs Pedo cases and GA's as well. The rest of the attendings typically staff IV cases.

In our 2 other clinics where we primarily operate on our attending's private patients the anesthesia experience is more the traditional IV Sedation using Midazolam, Fentanyl, Propofol, Ketamine modalities. Some attendings give you freedom to push drugs on your own, others are very specific with no-freedom as to how/when/what/how-much you give. In those clinics patients are sedated almost every day in a private practice fashion... multiple cases throughout the day.

The ER
Senior OMFS are also called to the ER to do Pedi-Sedations under the "er attending supervision" for our OMFS related ER consults if needed. These are typically Glyco-Midaz-Ketamine darts for quick procedures in the ER. Hardest part here is dealing with the NPO status or dealing with newer attendings not as comfortable with these situations.


Personally, I feel pretty well trained from this experience, but this is one area that you cannot get slack on. No matter what you have to keep learning and keep practicing. Most people won't intubate when they go their private offices, but they should still take the opportunity in the OR to intubate and keep those skills fresh.

This is probably one of the most important services we as OMFS can provide to the public and the dental community, but its also one of the ways that we can have negative effects too. We have a great safety track-record historically with death/adverse complication approaching 1 in 750,000 to 1,000,000 anesthetics administered by OMFS. Lets not only keep it that way, lets strive to improve it and continue to be the envy of our counterparts.”

So your "evidence" is a post by another poster instead of official lit from a program. Touting nonverifiable statistics. Right....

Re: "but anesthesiologists also have bad outcomes", Scroll up and read my blurb about warped and fatalistic thinking.
 
Airway management is practiced consistently. I would say every few months in the average office they will take a half day off and run though different scenarios. No OMFS wants a tragedy to happen in their office, outside of actually killing someone, this is also a death sentence to your practice and career.

It is a lot easier than writing it out on my own and I felt is spot on to our own training. We can all sit and debate, the numbers are out there.


Running through scenarios (ie, I would then ventilate the patient by mask if apneic) is very different from actually doing it.
 
Airway management is practiced consistently. I would say every few months in the average office they will take a half day off and run though different scenarios. No OMFS wants a tragedy to happen in their office, outside of actually killing someone, this is also a death sentence to your practice and career.

It is a lot easier than writing it out on my own and I felt is spot on to our own training. We can all sit and debate, the numbers are out there.



the cited statistics are so low as to be impossible to believe. My state alone exceeds it by orders of magnitude from publicly reported cases the last few years.
 
Actually doing them on a dummy patient. No different than we do in ACLS every year.
Doing them on a dummy patient is significantly different than ventilating a hypoxic laryngospasm.

You get my point.

If you're not actually managing the airway on real patients routinely, your skills are lacking.
 
Feel like I need to shed light on this. Complications happen, even with Anesthesiologists. The average oral surgeon will have performed 10’s of thousands of sedations by the time their career is over with no fatalities. I personally have encountered 100’s of Oral Surgeons, none have killed a patient. We do about 8 sedations a day in our clinic. No resident since inception has ever had someone did. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons are well trained and spend their entire careers providing moderate sedation on primary healthy ASA 1/2 patients. Patient selection is everything.

There is always variability in programs and rotations and from resident to resident experience. Below is a description of what a general experience is like. Its pretty consistent with most OMFS programs

“5-6 Months General Anesthesia with 1-2 months dedicated to Pediatric Anesthesia.

Main OR
In the main OR you are assisted and taught by the CRNA's/other anesthesia residents the first month, but you do everything. You will learn to start A-Lines, place central lines, etc. They are there to guide you and assist you so you will be ready to run your own rooms for the remaining 4 months.


250+ Intubations and General Anesthetics for all sorts of cases except for transplant/cardiac and OB. Did 10 TIVAS as well.
This included 30+ True blind-awake nasal intubations, 10 blind asleep nasal intubations, a multitude of Fiberoptic intubations, rapid-sequence intubations use of MACS and MILLERS, use of Glydescopes, Lighted Stylets, and Shikani stylets. Wednesdays and Fridays you did the anesthesia for the OMFS cases. The rest of the days were generally for ENT/Plastics/General Surgery/Gyn-Onc/and Ortho. Did a couple regional anesthetic cases and a couple spinals/epidurals just for the experience (but also not really by choice... kinda got stuck there). One of our OMFS faculty was also trained as an Anesthesiologist, so he staffs our GA Cases on wednesdays in the main OR. He's really an airway guru who can teach you a lot. ( He staffs our sedation clinic once a week as well for GA's in the clinic).

Peds Anesthesia Rotation
The peds anesthesia rotation took place in our eye-hospital with high volume cases. Most cases are on healthier kids (more relevant for the OMFS) vs being in the main-or on very sick pedo cases. These kids were there for ENT related things Tonsils/Tubes/Adenoids and Opthalmology things (Exams under anesthesia/eye enucleations/strabismus surgery etc) My youngest intubations were 3-4 months old with average age between 1-4 years of age. Many cases were sevo-mask/open airway ranging anywhere from 5-70 minutes. My log-book numbers here were 20 intubations, 10 LMAs, and 65 pure SEVO-MASK GAs.

After the Pedo's were done for the day we then assisted with the adult cases. I did around 100 IV Sedations/MACs for adults that month as well.

OMFS Clinic and Non Anesthesia Service:
We are very fortunate our main clinic has 3 operatories equipped with 3 GA Machines so 2x/week we still continue our GA skills. We still continue to do IV Sedation as well in that clinic, but they really want us to do GA cases there for continued practice... Some people have even done retro-grade intubations in the clinic. Another OMFS attending of ours also did a 1 year fellowship after residency, so he staffs Pedo cases and GA's as well. The rest of the attendings typically staff IV cases.

In our 2 other clinics where we primarily operate on our attending's private patients the anesthesia experience is more the traditional IV Sedation using Midazolam, Fentanyl, Propofol, Ketamine modalities. Some attendings give you freedom to push drugs on your own, others are very specific with no-freedom as to how/when/what/how-much you give. In those clinics patients are sedated almost every day in a private practice fashion... multiple cases throughout the day.

The ER
Senior OMFS are also called to the ER to do Pedi-Sedations under the "er attending supervision" for our OMFS related ER consults if needed. These are typically Glyco-Midaz-Ketamine darts for quick procedures in the ER. Hardest part here is dealing with the NPO status or dealing with newer attendings not as comfortable with these situations.


Personally, I feel pretty well trained from this experience, but this is one area that you cannot get slack on. No matter what you have to keep learning and keep practicing. Most people won't intubate when they go their private offices, but they should still take the opportunity in the OR to intubate and keep those skills fresh.

This is probably one of the most important services we as OMFS can provide to the public and the dental community, but its also one of the ways that we can have negative effects too. We have a great safety track-record historically with death/adverse complication approaching 1 in 750,000 to 1,000,000 anesthetics administered by OMFS. Lets not only keep it that way, lets strive to improve it and continue to be the envy of our counterparts.”
As stated before, even seasoned anesthesiologists would be weary of doing some of these office based dental procedures.

There is a strong financial incentive for oral surgeons to do “sedation”. I would ask if the procedure is being done with local or regional block by the surgeon, why not just give a couple Xanax or Valium tablets to take before the patient leaves for the procedure? I would also argue that if oral surgeons got paid the rates medical insurance pay for 99152 rather than the cash pay prices they charge then the financial incentive to do sedation would be much less.
 
I have no dog in this race, as I do not offer sedation to patients. I am wondering, however, if oral surgeons are undertrained to perform anesthesia and CRNA have a "license to kill" and are also under trained. What is the solution? There are millions of dental sedations done a year, taking patients to an OR is not feasible as dental and medical insurance won't cover it, there are also not enough MD anesthesiologists to go around. What do we do with these patients? Yes there are unnecessary deaths occurring, but is there a solution?
I would venture to guess there are many more deaths associated with MD anesthesiologists performing "straight forward" sedation on ASA 1/2 patients associated with user error (granted there are also many more sedations). But I am not certain, these cases do not make the news as it's not as sexy as patient dies during routine dental care.

The fundamental problem is that the vast majority of these dental sedations are completely unnecessary. Sedation is offered not because it's medically indicated, but rather for marketing purposes, to make elective (even cosmetic) procedures that should be done under local, more palatable to patients.

This is a problem that starts and ends with dentists who overuse sedation for personal economic reasons.

What do we do with these patients? Yes there are unnecessary deaths occurring, but is there a solution?
Yeah. Don't sedate them. Don't tell them they need sedation. Don't tell them that the procedure done with sedation is a luxury product or the gold standard or whatever marketing buzzwords bring them in the door.
 
omfs residents are allowed to be in the room alone like anesthesia residents?
does this apply to every resident? sometimes i have peds/ed/ICU people rotating in anesthesia, i can just leave them alone?

As others mentioned, OMFS residents rotate with us for 6 month blocks. We treat them like new CA1s. They're generally excellent - as you'd expect, since the path for them to get where they are is very competitive. They do the same academics as our residents.

We tend to schedule them differently than our CA1s. Preference toward rooms with more/shorter cases (more reps in their limited time), more head/neck procedures, etc. Not so much things like lower extremity joints (a couple of spinal cases in a day doesn't do them a lot of good), long abdominal surgeries, cranis, etc.

They take call along with our CA1s.

Same as CA1s, at some point they're gradually given more autonomy, and we leave them alone in the rooms when it's appropriate.


Very different from other rotating residents, who are with us for a few weeks at most, and are there to intubate people and then struggle to stay awake themselves after the tube is in. I don't leave those rotators alone, ever. They get the same short leash from me as rotating medical students or interns.

As an aside, this short leash is something of a generational change. As a MS4, I was left alone in ORs when rotating through anesthesia. Granted I was on track to become an anesthesia resident so I displayed incrementally more competence and motivation than the average med student ... but still. I'd never leave the starriest of superstar med students alone in one of my ORs.
 
As stated before, even seasoned anesthesiologists would be weary of doing some of these office based dental procedures.
I once turned down really convenient, really lucrative work doing sedation in a peds dental office. What a ****show that place was. Substandard equipment, no postprocedure monitoring equipment or personnel. GETAs for kids.

A CRNA that I worked with took the job.

So far, no headlines from that place. So far.
 
The crux of the difference between us and dentists providing sedation is where WE draw the line for acceptable depth of sedation for a procedure in the airway without an ETT.

Sure there’s differences in monitoring, equipment etc, but what really keeps OUR patients safe is that we secure the airway.

Everything else is a distraction.
 
Where are all the OMFS in this discussion? Interesting point about the financial incentive for sedating.

Follow the money!


Airway management is practiced consistently. I would say every few months in the average office they will take a half day off and run though different scenarios. No OMFS wants a tragedy to happen in their office, outside of actually killing someone, this is also a death sentence to your practice and career.

Intubation and airway management is practiced by doing. If you tell me the last time you actually intubated or bagged a patient was in your mind/mannequin …. Then we are pretty far apart on this issue.

It’s like having that dentist/anesthesia attending (in the description you provided) doing a dental extraction. He probably can do it, but can he do it safely and in timely manner? That’s the question I have. You’ve seen how quickly airway can go bad. It’s in the matter of minutes. You sure you can recognize, diagnosed and treat the problem within that time frame, while you’re doing the dental procedure?
 
I get the risky nature of even OMFS with some minimal training in anesthesia doing it in their offices. But can someone speak about this case, specifically:


The girl died with an oral surgeon AND an Anesthesiologist MD present. In this case, at least the OMFS was not relying on his lesser anesthesiology knowledge, as he had the wherewithal to have an Anesthesiologist with him, yet a young patient still died.

Is it something deeper that points to small outpatient dental offices maybe not having standard protocols for when things go wrong? Again, in this case an Anesthesiologist was present……
 
Nothing to say here. Find my a study that contradicts these and you have a point. OMFS's are not killing patients routinely. It's a rare and sad day, and usually with other underlying issues when a case like this occurs (like a narcotics habit). Trust me, we all hear about.

I'm not saying anybody is killing somebody routinely, I am saying patients are dying under sedation in dental offices at rates well in excess of either of those studies.
 
There are dental anesthesiologists so even your own dental organizations recognize that the anesthetic training of most dentists is lacking. Meanwhile we have a bunch of gung-ho dentists here doing mental gymnastics saying they can operate and also deliver an anesthetic superior to anesthesiologists with a tiny fraction of the training and vigilance. One of you said masking and intubating q mannequin counts as real life experience dealing with emergency. Another one of you ventured to guess that anesthesiologists actually had worse outcomes than a multitasking dentist, based on absolutely nothing. Quite remarkable the level of delusion displayed here.
 
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"You pulled this claim out of nowhere. So your claim is that a trained anesthesia provider is more likely to make an anesthesia error leading to death than a dentist with minimal anesthesia training balancing both procedure and anesthetic? Get out of here. You also venture a guess that the moon is made of cheese? Ridiculous."

Take a deep breath, relax buddy.

My claim is not that an anesthesiologist is more likely to make an error than a dentist, my claim is that these errors happen in the OR with MD's. Patients die, it often gets buried and hidden and it never makes the news. My brother is a med-mal attorney and there is no shortage of physician-error related deaths.

My question was is there a solution? Or is it just bitching and complaining about CRNAs, Dentists, etc. doing sedation? Seems like the offered solution is not to sedate so deeply or not sedate at all. Fair enough.
 
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Laryngospasm's are statistically going to happen for every oral surgeons. Trust me they are trained. How many times it happens during a given month/year depends. But I can tell you with certainty that every OMFS is more competent at handling these moderate sedations than most CRNA's and anesthesiologists. Its not a pissing contest. It's simply because they do them more often. Do 5-8 a day, every single day and you'll have complications. You have to be able to know how to handle them.

Haha, are you for real? You are demonstrating a clear lack of experience and a worrying amount of hubris. While most of these cases undoubtedly go off without a hitch, it's dealing with the 1 in 10,000 serious complications that sets the surgeon with less-than-CA1 level of anesthesia experience apart from the anesthesia professional with years of experience responding to emergencies.
 
Laryngospasm's are statistically going to happen for every oral surgeons. Trust me they are trained. How many times it happens during a given month/year depends. But I can tell you with certainty that every OMFS is more competent at handling these moderate sedations than most CRNA's and anesthesiologists. Its not a pissing contest. It's simply because they do them more often. Do 5-8 a day, every single day and you'll have complications. You have to be able to know how to handle them.
Every OMFS is more competent than an anesthesiologist or CRNA? Obviously not the dude this thread is about or we wouldn’t be discussing this. You’re showing that you’re still a resident by claiming this.
 
Laryngospasm's are statistically going to happen for every oral surgeons. Trust me they are trained. How many times it happens during a given month/year depends. But I can tell you with certainty that every OMFS is more competent at handling these moderate sedations than most CRNA's and anesthesiologists. Its not a pissing contest. It's simply because they do them more often. Do 5-8 a day, every single day and you'll have complications. You have to be able to know how to handle them.
How often do you see laryngospasm? And since it sounds like you have so much experience can you explain to us your tricks for treating it?
 
Show me the numbers

I am simply counting widely reported deaths in my state and dividing by population. If the odds were as slim as those studies report, it would never happen. And yet every couple months I see another one.
 
No one is selling their patients on the sedation and using buzzwords. If anything, day to day we have to talk patients out of them if they are not suitable. They are referred by their general dentist. If a procedure can be done under local, it generally is.

Billboards on the highway tell a different story.
 
But I can tell you with certainty that every OMFS is more competent at handling these moderate sedations than most CRNA's and anesthesiologists.


Hmm… I’m not sure we can even have an honest discussion here with those words. Regardless, most of what everyone calls moderate sedation is actually general anesthesia with no airway. If moderate sedation were used in the case we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
 
how do you get real life experience dealing with an emergency? when it comes up.

how does an oral surgeon? when it comes up.

Can you comment on coffee’s first statement? If there was no difference between oral surgeon and dental anesthesiologists, why is there a need for both?

If these are your asa 1 and 2 patients that you are selecting, why is there a “need” for moderate sedation? What does moderate sedation achieve that a good local and/or even oral benzodiazepine couldn’t achieve? Take the financial incentive out of my mind.

By your own statement, that the complications is low, death is even lower, how often do you deal with airway emergencies? After four years of training and a few years of practice, if there is any sort of emergencies, afterward I still can feel the adrenaline coursing through my veins. I deal with this everyday.

I also think by someone else bring up the fact there was an anesthesiologist and omfs in the room, there was still a death; it’s a double edge sword. You can conclude that the anesthesiologist(s) sucked; I can conclude that even with two experienced practitioners in the room, shlt can still hit the fan. I am not attack your training and expertise. Why not acknowledge that 1. Sedation isn’t as “safe” as people believe. 2. We should all do better to prevent the next tragedy.
 
wow what is this thread
since when does a healthy patient dying get buried?
listening to these guys you'd think that the average anesthesiologist is offing a sedation patient every other day

I guess we send a strike team to take out the patients family too so they won't talk. Im being sarcastic.. in case you dentists don't get it.
 
Feel like I need to shed light on this. Complications happen, even with Anesthesiologists. The average oral surgeon will have performed 10’s of thousands of sedations by the time their career is over with no fatalities. I personally have encountered 100’s of Oral Surgeons, none have killed a patient. We do about 8 sedations a day in our clinic. No resident since inception has ever had someone did. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons are well trained and spend their entire careers providing moderate sedation on primary healthy ASA 1/2 patients. Patient selection is everything.

There is always variability in programs and rotations and from resident to resident experience. Below is a description of what a general experience is like. Its pretty consistent with most OMFS programs

“5-6 Months General Anesthesia with 1-2 months dedicated to Pediatric Anesthesia.

Main OR
In the main OR you are assisted and taught by the CRNA's/other anesthesia residents the first month, but you do everything. You will learn to start A-Lines, place central lines, etc. They are there to guide you and assist you so you will be ready to run your own rooms for the remaining 4 months.


250+ Intubations and General Anesthetics for all sorts of cases except for transplant/cardiac and OB. Did 10 TIVAS as well.
This included 30+ True blind-awake nasal intubations, 10 blind asleep nasal intubations, a multitude of Fiberoptic intubations, rapid-sequence intubations use of MACS and MILLERS, use of Glydescopes, Lighted Stylets, and Shikani stylets. Wednesdays and Fridays you did the anesthesia for the OMFS cases. The rest of the days were generally for ENT/Plastics/General Surgery/Gyn-Onc/and Ortho. Did a couple regional anesthetic cases and a couple spinals/epidurals just for the experience (but also not really by choice... kinda got stuck there). One of our OMFS faculty was also trained as an Anesthesiologist, so he staffs our GA Cases on wednesdays in the main OR. He's really an airway guru who can teach you a lot. ( He staffs our sedation clinic once a week as well for GA's in the clinic).

Peds Anesthesia Rotation
The peds anesthesia rotation took place in our eye-hospital with high volume cases. Most cases are on healthier kids (more relevant for the OMFS) vs being in the main-or on very sick pedo cases. These kids were there for ENT related things Tonsils/Tubes/Adenoids and Opthalmology things (Exams under anesthesia/eye enucleations/strabismus surgery etc) My youngest intubations were 3-4 months old with average age between 1-4 years of age. Many cases were sevo-mask/open airway ranging anywhere from 5-70 minutes. My log-book numbers here were 20 intubations, 10 LMAs, and 65 pure SEVO-MASK GAs.

After the Pedo's were done for the day we then assisted with the adult cases. I did around 100 IV Sedations/MACs for adults that month as well.

OMFS Clinic and Non Anesthesia Service:
We are very fortunate our main clinic has 3 operatories equipped with 3 GA Machines so 2x/week we still continue our GA skills. We still continue to do IV Sedation as well in that clinic, but they really want us to do GA cases there for continued practice... Some people have even done retro-grade intubations in the clinic. Another OMFS attending of ours also did a 1 year fellowship after residency, so he staffs Pedo cases and GA's as well. The rest of the attendings typically staff IV cases.

In our 2 other clinics where we primarily operate on our attending's private patients the anesthesia experience is more the traditional IV Sedation using Midazolam, Fentanyl, Propofol, Ketamine modalities. Some attendings give you freedom to push drugs on your own, others are very specific with no-freedom as to how/when/what/how-much you give. In those clinics patients are sedated almost every day in a private practice fashion... multiple cases throughout the day.

The ER
Senior OMFS are also called to the ER to do Pedi-Sedations under the "er attending supervision" for our OMFS related ER consults if needed. These are typically Glyco-Midaz-Ketamine darts for quick procedures in the ER. Hardest part here is dealing with the NPO status or dealing with newer attendings not as comfortable with these situations.


Personally, I feel pretty well trained from this experience, but this is one area that you cannot get slack on. No matter what you have to keep learning and keep practicing. Most people won't intubate when they go their private offices, but they should still take the opportunity in the OR to intubate and keep those skills fresh.

This is probably one of the most important services we as OMFS can provide to the public and the dental community, but its also one of the ways that we can have negative effects too. We have a great safety track-record historically with death/adverse complication approaching 1 in 750,000 to 1,000,000 anesthetics administered by OMFS. Lets not only keep it that way, lets strive to improve it and continue to be the envy of our counterparts.”
Those are great numbers and I’m sure you are well trained to solely do anesthesia under and attending’s cover and guidance. But how can you do sedation (or “deep sedation” or room air general anesthesia) while operating? No other surgical speciality would consider doing such. Why do we/dental boards allow you to purposefully split your focus? I saw your links that overall complications are low but why play with fire and play both surgeon and anesthesiologist?
 
Laryngospasm's are statistically going to happen for every oral surgeons. Trust me they are trained. How many times it happens during a given month/year depends. But I can tell you with certainty that every OMFS is more competent at handling these moderate sedations than most CRNA's and anesthesiologists. Its not a pissing contest. It's simply because they do them more often. Do 5-8 a day, every single day and you'll have complications. You have to be able to know how to handle them.

You are an ofms resident talking really big and beyond what you actually know. This is the exact type of cavalier attitude that gets people in over their heads.
 
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