Training issues at Postdoc Fellowship Program

[msc545]

My constructive point is that jumping from hearing that everyone in a certain rotation is struggling to get cases to assuming the OP is being abused and that giving well-intentioned career advice on an internet forum is perpetuating abuse is equally inappropriate and stupid. I can't imagine anyone in this thread has enough information about what is actually happening in the OP's prac to allege this and worry that this thread is causing undue harm to the OP both by increasing their emotional instability and potentially causing them to make a hasty decision with lasting, negative career implications.

uh huh. You might want to look at the actual history of this instead of jumping on the bandwagon. The OP has said that he is the only one struggling with this issue, and I believe him. Read through the long series of posts and gain some knowledge prior to commenting, unless you want to whine about pronouns again.

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[erg923]

I choose to think you are an arrogant idiot who cannot tolerate dissension. I am not the first person here to say this.

You are indeed the only one to suggest OP essentially "blow up" their post-doc because of a seeming supervisor issue less than 3 months in. And, how exactly do you expect them to address this issue when reapplying for another post-doc? Trust me. No good can come of this. Work the options available until we know what's what.

Again, I have agreed that there are more wrongs than rights here, but abandoning/terminating and trying again is essentially wasteful (time and money) and not likely to pay off for them in the end.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

At this point, I am receiving less experience than a practicum student. Most of the grad programs in the area have a contract for the practicum student that stipulates the minimum number of direct contact hours that he/she will receive throughout the course of the training year. Barring any unforeseen circumstances (e.g. COVID-19 pandemic), the supervisor has to make sure that they receive those hours. Unfortunately, there is no such stipulation for postdocs. The training manual states that fellows will obtain experience designed to enhance competence across a broad range of domains but nothing specific.

 

[bcliff]

don't remember if you mentioned this already, but what has your TD had to say about this? Do you only have one supervisor on postdoc? Can you carve out a mini-rotation working with someone else?

 

[szymk1sm]

At this point, I am receiving less experience than a practicum student. Most of the grad programs in the area have a contract for the practicum student that stipulates the minimum number of direct contact hours that he/she will receive throughout the course of the training year. Barring any unforeseen circumstances (e.g. COVID-19 pandemic), the supervisor has to make sure that they receive those hours. Unfortunately, there is no such stipulation for postdocs. The training manual states that fellows will obtain experience designed to enhance competence across a broad range of domains but nothing specific.

Are there opportunities available for you to supervise prac students?

 

[Dazen]

uh huh. You might want to look at the actual history of this instead of jumping on the bandwagon. The OP has said that he is the only one struggling with this issue, and I believe him. Read through the long series of posts and gain some knowledge prior to commenting, unless you want to whine about pronouns again.

Thanks for your support! My supervisor does feel overwhelmed and I have a feeling that the facility actually measures the amount of work that each provider does. So, they can’t just assign work to a trainee and collect RVU’s.

I also feel bad for the interns in this rotation. They aren’t getting much experience here. However, the lack of opportunities are being offset by their other rotations. It’s hard because I’m just stuck in this one setting for the full year.

If you've read through the thread you'll see that I've commented multiple times on this in substantive ways. The OP has said in the above quote that others who are currently on rotation in their current area are experiencing similar issues. But I don't think you're trying to listen to anything I or anyone else is saying versus pushing your own narrative.

 

[msc545]

If you've read through the thread you'll see that I've commented multiple times on this in substantive ways. The OP has said in the above quote that others who are currently on rotation in their current area are experiencing similar issues. But I don't think you're trying to listen to anything I or anyone else is saying versus pushing your own narrative.

If he said that before, he is not saying it now. You have made precisely one arguably "substantive post". Stop lying.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

don't remember if you mentioned this already, but what has your TD had to say about this? Do you only have one supervisor on postdoc? Can you carve out a mini-rotation working with someone else?

I have tried obtaining a mini-rotation. They seem to be pushing that to the side. My TD has encouraged me to communicate this to my two supervisors. However, he has conveyed the message to them.

 

[bcliff]

I have tried obtaining a mini-rotation. They seem to be pushing that to the side. My TD has encouraged me to communicate this to my two supervisors. However, he has conveyed the message to them.

Have you tried communicating this assertively and directly to your supervisor? You're a doctor now... I think you can push your weight around a little bit more than you probably could have on internship and practicum; e.g., stating that you're going to do this thing that everyone seems to be on board with vs. asking if you can do this thing that everyone seems to be on board with.

I'm imagining a conversation, like: "hey, I'm finding myself with extra time on my hands, so I'm going I'm going to start seeing x number of patients with x supervisor for the next four months. This will help me round out my training in x, y, and z ways. Over the next four months, can you and I talk about ways to increase my caseload on my primary rotation with you?"

Start sending emails to set up supervision times with whomever would oversee this mini rotation, *maybe* (maybe...) cc your TD on emails with your primary supervisor if you anticipate pushback *and* think/know your TD is on board with you seeing some patients with a supplemental supervisor, etc.

Maybe also schedule a meeting with your TD and primary supervisor. You're still a trainee, but there is an onus on you to be assertive and proactive about reaching your goals for fellowship.

I echo the majority of the other folks on here that it seems highly unlikely that leaving your postdoc prematurely would yield a positive result. Heck, finishing this fellowship and completing another 1-year postdoc somewhere else would be preferable to burning a bridge by leaving early.

 

[erg923]

I have tried obtaining a mini-rotation. They seem to be pushing that to the side. My TD has encouraged me to communicate this to my two supervisors. However, he has conveyed the message to them.

The issue remains with your supervisor (for which you are assigned and took this post-doc?) What, exactly, is the problem here? Should she continue to supervise this advertised area?

 

[futureapppsy2]

Mod note: Please remain professional and polite and avoid attacking each other.

 

[erg923]

If he said that before, he is not saying it now.

Look son, I don't what the 'deal" is here either..... but suffice to say that abruptly leaving is a risk of time and money to a vulnerable Ph.D./Psy.D who is likely in their late 20s and on the cusp of being a true professional (i.e.., career, family, parent, buying a home). Perhaps we use available channels/appeals and communication to make the best of a training program that seems to be in disarray? How about that?

In the end, most of what people want is to at least be given a green-light to move forward with their careers/life. Right?

 

[mind_over_matter277]

The issue remains with your supervisor (for which you are assigned and took this post-doc?) What, exactly, is the problem here? Should she continue to supervise this advertised area?

I didn’t know that she was going to be the primary supervisor when I accepted the position.

 

[msc545]

I didn’t know that she was going to be the primary supervisor when I accepted the position.

Have you had some negative interactions with her?

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Have you had some negative interactions with her?

Kind of….I don’t feel comfortable around her.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: Just to re-iterate what @futureapppsy2 has said, everyone please remain professional and courteous. There's no place here for personal attacks, and it detracts from the OP obtaining the advice and discussion they're seeking.

 

[msc545]

Kind of….I don’t feel comfortable around her.

Can you be more specific, please? Have you ever socialized with her or had a class with her?

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Have you tried communicating this assertively and directly to your supervisor? You're a doctor now... I think you can push your weight around a little bit more than you probably could have on internship and practicum; e.g., stating that you're going to do this thing that everyone seems to be on board with vs. asking if you can do this thing that everyone seems to be on board with.

I'm imagining a conversation, like: "hey, I'm finding myself with extra time on my hands, so I'm going I'm going to start seeing x number of patients with x supervisor for the next four months. This will help me round out my training in x, y, and z ways. Over the next four months, can you and I talk about ways to increase my caseload on my primary rotation with you?"

Start sending emails to set up supervision times with whomever would oversee this mini rotation, *maybe* (maybe...) cc your TD on emails with your primary supervisor if you anticipate pushback *and* think/know your TD is on board with you seeing some patients with a supplemental supervisor, etc.

Maybe also schedule a meeting with your TD and primary supervisor. You're still a trainee, but there is an onus on you to be assertive and proactive about reaching your goals for fellowship.

I echo the majority of the other folks on here that it seems highly unlikely that leaving your postdoc prematurely would yield a positive result. Heck, finishing this fellowship and completing another 1-year postdoc somewhere else would be preferable to burning a bridge by leaving early.

I would like to achieve this in the way you described. However, I could see people say "ask your supervisor about this." Seems like I am under her direct control.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Kind of….I don’t feel comfortable around her.

Hmm. You'd mentioned that other trainees in your area/rotation also have the same issue RE: low hours? Can you provide any information on the type of setting itself?

And yes, if you're able to provide more information on the type(s) of negative interaction, that could be helpful. But depending on the situation, if another discussion with your supervisor doesn't result in any changes, it sounds like a more direct talk with the training director is warranted. Part of the DOT's responsibilities, in addition to making sure the program meets all requirements, is to ensure that trainees are obtaining the necessary experiences and that supervisors are, basically, doing their jobs.

Edit to add: Do you have regular meetings with your DOT? I'd assume so, given the accreditation status of the program. If so, this might be worth bringing up in that meeting, or scheduling a private one with them if talking with your supervisor doesn't work. And if leaving ends up being something you're considering (which I'd recommend against), I would 100% suggest speaking frankly with your DOT before doing so.

Also, to add to what I mentioned above and reiterate what another poster mentioned, I think having concrete steps outlined with your supervisor (e.g., when this will happen, what the hours/patients goal will be, etc.) would be the best goal for your next meeting with them.

Ideally, this is something they would've (and likely should've) addressed by now. They haven't, so that means it may take more prodding from you.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Hmm. You'd mentioned that other trainees in your area/rotation also have the same issue RE: low hours? Can you provide any information on the type of setting itself?

And yes, if you're able to provide more information on the type(s) of negative interaction, that could be helpful. But depending on the situation, if another discussion with your supervisor doesn't result in any changes, it sounds like a more direct talk with the training director is warranted. Part of the DOT's responsibilities, in addition to making sure the program meets all requirements, is to ensure that trainees are obtaining the necessary experiences and that supervisors are, basically, doing their jobs.

I will DM you with the details.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yup, this is turning into exactly the ****show I expected given the participants. This is now almost exactly like that earlier thread.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I just want to find a way to resolve this situation. I would like to stay here and actually obtain rewarding experiences. I don't like the idea of just trying to stick it out hoping the situation will magically improve. This year will probably just drag on with all this free time in my schedule.

Then it sounds like it's time to talk to your supervisor's supervisor. Let your supervisor know that you believe you've attempted to resolve this with them, but haven't seen any progress, and now see no other option.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Then it sounds like it's time to talk to your supervisor's supervisor. Let your supervisor know that you believe you've attempted to resolve this with them, but haven't seen any progress, and know see no other option.

Supervisor's supervisor? You mean the training director or the person that my supervisor reports to.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Yup, this is turning into exactly the ****show I expected given the participants. This is now almost exactly like that earlier thread.

I'm very confused...what exactly are you referring to?

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm very confused...what exactly are you referring to?

The circus that this has turned into. This thread is not good for your situation, your mental health, nor your career at this point.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

The circus that this has turned into. This thread is not good for your situation, your mental health, nor your career at this point.

I think I am just going to be proactive about the situation and just bring the concerns up to my supervisor and go from there. That would be the best approach. I appreciate everyone sharing their opinions.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Supervisor's supervisor? You mean the training director or the person that my supervisor reports to.

I can't speak for ClinicalABA, but I would guess they meant the DOT. If your supervisor's boss isn't involved in training, they'd probably have no idea why you're approaching them.

Also, I agree that bringing things up with your supervisor and going from there seems (to me) like the best approach. If, as in the past, things don't change after talking with your supervisor, talking with the DOT more directly seems warranted.

 

[msc545]

The circus that this has turned into. This thread is not good for your situation, your mental health, nor your career at this point.

It isn't the thread - it's the situation that is not good for his mental health or his career. Put the blame where it belongs, which is not on those of us trying to help him.

 

[WisNeuro]

It isn't the thread - it's the situation that is not good for his mental health or his career. Put the blame where it belongs, which is not on those of us trying to help him.

Some of us are trying to help the OP. As for the others, I hope that they get the help that they need.

 

[msc545]

Some of us are trying to help the OP. As for the others, I hope that they get the help that they need.

You need to stop with the provocative, inappropriate comments. You seem unable to keep yourself from doing this, and it is worrisome. You resort to this when anyone disagrees with you or you don't like what they have said, and it is childish, and at times, very unprofessional.

 

[WisNeuro]

You need to stop with the provocative, inappropriate comments. You seem unable to keep yourself from doing this, and it is worrisome. You resort to this when anyone disagrees with you or you don't like what they have said, and it is childish, and at times, very unprofessional.

What's unprofessional is some of the advice given in this thread that would negatively impact the OP for years to come.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Supervisor's supervisor? You mean the training director or the person that my supervisor reports to.

Whoever is in charge of making sure your supervisor adequately meets the needs of their post-docs. If it's an APA approved postdoc, there's likely a training manual or procedural type document. Do what that says. If there isn't one or you're not sure, ask your supervisor who you should talk to about your concerns.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I

Supervisor's supervisor? You mean the training director or the person that my supervisor reports to.

Look here: Postdoc
If your postdoc program is accredited, it should have all this stuff. The training plan, etc. should clearly state what you should be getting. Bring it with you to any meetings and reference it when you're saying that you're not getting what you thought you should be getting.

 

[erg923]

You need to stop with the provocative, inappropriate comments. You seem unable to keep yourself from doing this, and it is worrisome. You resort to this when anyone disagrees with you or you don't like what they have said, and it is childish, and at times, very unprofessional.

For goodness sakes, son! Let it be.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

Some of us are trying to help the OP. As for the others, I hope that they get the help that they need.

I appreciate the valuable insight and guidance provided. I think I have a good plan moving forward. I will bring this up to my supervisors in order to see if a plan for addressing the issue can be implemented. I can tell that this program is not designed to over work fellows. Lots of time is set aside for supervision, seminars, consultation, team meetings, admin work, and self-care.

I could easily see myself getting overwhelmed with too much work. I think there’s an ideal “just right” level of clinical work. I doubt you can achieve that on a job.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I still stand by my earlier advice. Not ideal, but sometimes you just got to keep your head down, check a very important career box, then move onto the next thing. There is already an end point to this training year. And having extra time to do other non-clinical professional things doesn't sound like a huge deal to me. It could even be advantageous. Use that time to craft future templates, research how to start a private practice, read the literature and treatment manuals for populations you want to work with, there are so many things without using the nuclear options.

 

[foreverbull]

Let us know what happens, @mind_over_matter277 , and best of luck to you.

 

[mind_over_matter277]

absolutely! Thanks for all the support and help as I navigate through this predicament!

 

[msc545]

What's unprofessional is some of the advice given in this thread that would negatively impact the OP for years to come.

That is merely your arrogant opinion. You are not the judge of what is or is not professional.

 

[WisNeuro]

That is merely your arrogant opinion. You are not the judge of what is or is not professional.

Bye, Felicia.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Mod Note: I've closed the thread, as it's run its course, has veered into being unprofessional, and (most importantly) the OP seems to have received the information they were seeking. Warnings may be issued for some comments.