Transgender Surgeries

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CA_1134

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Tonight in my Healthcare Seminar we talked about the issue of GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender) Healthcare. My question is about transgender surgeries or hormonal therapies. It is believed that many doctors have biases about treating a transsexual or performing a transsexual surgery (of course there is). My questions lies beyond what I believe to be morally correct, but is a transgender surgery or hormonal therapy detrimental to the physical well-being of the patient? I asked this question and there aren't really any stats on something such as a lifespan after the surgery, etc. However, the advocator for GLBT said that generally there are emotional reliefs after these procedures happen because they are who they really want to be. So if there is a potential physical harm, does the emotional benefits of the procedure make it ok? Does that violate a hypocratic oath? What does everyone think?

I might have not been clear on this so if you want further elaboration on something, ask!
 
Well besides all the normal side-effects of surgery in general there are other risks of course. Most of what I remember it was Bladder damage, major infections and bleeding. The number one side effect I've heard of is a rectal/vaginal fistula.

Most of the major 'after-effects' of the SRS are emotional. Either relief of being who they think they should be or now a doubt as to was that really what they wanted. I think the SRS is more of a biased based surgery. Doctors who have an opinion one way or another. Obviously a doctor who is more conservative and has ethical problems with it isn't going to make it his specialty, while a doctor who doesn't (take Dr. Alter for example, and no I didn't hear about him on Dr. 90210 😛) and is more liberal with the subject will deal closer with a Transexual patient.

I'd also like to add that alot of the mental problems afterwards is pt's expectations of the surgery are exaggerated, and they are disappointed with the end result. Alot of people think it will be a 100% natual looking vagina when in most cases (although I'm not sure if it's possible for a 100% natural looking one) it's not or very far from it. Most SRS's are two part, the SRS then later a labioplasty to make it more realistic. (Has been awhile since I did research on the subject, they may do the labioplasty as part of the SRS now)

Other than health side-effects there are the other main side-effects such as loss of feeling and lack of an ability to have an orgasim.
 
Transexuals are willing to undergo surgery,

Transgenders are unwilling to undergo surgery.

Be careful of your grammar!

😡
 
PittMedicine said:
Transexuals are willing to undergo surgery,

Transgenders are unwilling to undergo surgery.

Be careful of your grammar!

😡

A transgender is an umbrella term for transsexuals. In order to be a transsexual, you must be a transgender.

Also, it's not a big deal, so why waste your time posting?
 
Edit: said the same thing as the poster above. =) But regarding the OP's initial posting, it's very difficult to make a solid argument one way or another. Very few long term studies have been done. The studies that have been done show very high success rates but seem to have methodological problems. While issues obviously exist regarding pre and post-operative psychology, I personally believe the surgery does work successfully for many people and gender reassignment surgery is an area of interest of mine.
 
Dominion said:
Well besides all the normal side-effects of surgery in general there are other risks of course. Most of what I remember it was Bladder damage, major infections and bleeding. The number one side effect I've heard of is a rectal/vaginal fistula.

Most of the major 'after-effects' of the SRS are emotional. Either relief of being who they think they should be or now a doubt as to was that really what they wanted. I think the SRS is more of a biased based surgery. Doctors who have an opinion one way or another. Obviously a doctor who is more conservative and has ethical problems with it isn't going to make it his specialty, while a doctor who doesn't (take Dr. Alter for example, and no I didn't hear about him on Dr. 90210 😛) and is more liberal with the subject will deal closer with a Transexual patient.

I'd also like to add that alot of the mental problems afterwards is pt's expectations of the surgery are exaggerated, and they are disappointed with the end result. Alot of people think it will be a 100% natual looking vagina when in most cases (although I'm not sure if it's possible for a 100% natural looking one) it's not or very far from it. Most SRS's are two part, the SRS then later a labioplasty to make it more realistic. (Has been awhile since I did research on the subject, they may do the labioplasty as part of the SRS now)

Other than health side-effects there are the other main side-effects such as loss of feeling and lack of an ability to have an orgasim.

Thanks for the actual info on post-surgery effects, the GLBT speaker seemed to not want to mention any of that when I asked her about it. She weighed in on the emotional benefits which made me think that maybe the so-called "elective surgery" was something that was maybe more necessary than one may think. She also compared it to chemotherapy. She said, "Look at the things we do in medicine today, we use chemotherapy which makes our quality of life at the time go to hell, so how could it be any worse?" I'm not sure I buy that argument.
 
geekOCD said:
Edit: said the same thing as the poster above. =) But regarding the OP's initial posting, it's very difficult to make a solid argument one way or another. Very few long term studies have been done. The studies that have been done show very high success rates but seem to have methodological problems. While issues obviously exist regarding pre and post-operative psychology, I personally believe the surgery does work successfully for many people and gender reassignment surgery is an area of interest of mine.

It is the long term studies that I want to see, however, we won't see them for a while because I doubt that much money was put into researching that 20-30 years ago (if GRS was even done then).
 
geekOCD said:
Actually, transgendered is the umbrella term which includes transsexuals (who believe they are the wrong gender) and transvestites (who enjoy appearing as the opposite gender) and a myriad of other related groups.

There are a good number of terms inside and outside the community and it's often hard to keep track of lol.

Straigh from Wikipedia:
Transgender is generally used as a catch-all umbrella term for a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups centered around the full or partial reversal of gender roles as well as physical sexual reassignment therapies (which can be just hormonal or involve various degrees of surgical alteration). A common definition is "People who feel that the gender they were assigned (usually at birth) is a false or incomplete description of themselves." Included in this definition are a number of well known sub-categories such as transsexual, transvestite and sometimes genderqueers. (See also cross-dressing.)

I'd also like to see if anyone thinks a doctor who would not treat a transexual would treat someone who was intersex. It's a toss up, I personally know 4 intersexed people. 2 of which consider themselves gay, both identifying as males, and the other two who indentify one as male, the other as female considering themselves straight. Dating only the 'opposite sex' as indentifed. Would the same doctor refusing to assist a transexual assist the intersexed person regardless of orientation. On the same hand do you think the same doctor would assist someone with klinefelter's. I'm not of course refering to just one doc, but one who would consider himself conservative enough to not like the GBLT community for whatever reason.
 
You know it always comes down to the issue of choice. Although it's moving more and more into the realm of being a biological reality (and I think we might see it accepted as such in the coming years), transgenderism is still viewed as a choice. In the example you give, I'd expect the doc who has issues w/ treating the transgendered to have no probs with the intersexed or any other proven biological condition.
 
CA_1134 said:
It is the long term studies that I want to see, however, we won't see them for a while because I doubt that much money was put into researching that 20-30 years ago (if GRS was even done then).

Considering that only now is the SRS (or GRS) is gaining a mainstream view is a study even going to be considered. My fiancee is currently in anthropology but is putting an emphasis into sex and gender and she was curious what avenues she could further study. This is one I recommended highly. Not only is it just now gaining notice in the media not as a taboo topic, but something seriously looked at (although there are still bad reports) it seems now is going to be a perfect time for young researchers to start exploring in depth. I researched the topic for a time in highschool and even such a short time ago it was pretty difficult to find information without the internet. Even with the internet I was more or less limited to hunting down people who have had the surgery and the doctors who performed the operation and correspond with them through e-mail and other means. I could find very few valid sites that did indepth analysis of the procedure and after effects.

I would be interested in seeing a long term study done, in my own case, 7 years ago I first e-mailed someone who had undergone the SRS procedure. 7 years later she is still fine and is a good friend of mine. She experience no major conflicts, has been happy since, and can still have orgasims.


I also think there should be some focus on procedures that aren't as safe for Transexuals, such as the one to make your adams apple smaller, or the one that is supposed to make your voice sound more feminine. Those are the ones that have the most potential for disaster and post-complications. (I apologize, I can't remember the exact procedure names, and I'm too tired to ask google 😛)
 
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Dominion said:
There are a good number of terms inside and outside the community and it's often hard to keep track of lol.

Straigh from Wikipedia:
Transgender is generally used as a catch-all umbrella term for a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups centered around the full or partial reversal of gender roles as well as physical sexual reassignment therapies (which can be just hormonal or involve various degrees of surgical alteration). A common definition is "People who feel that the gender they were assigned (usually at birth) is a false or incomplete description of themselves." Included in this definition are a number of well known sub-categories such as transsexual, transvestite and sometimes genderqueers. (See also cross-dressing.)

I'd also like to see if anyone thinks a doctor who would not treat a transexual would treat someone who was intersex. It's a toss up, I personally know 4 intersexed people. 2 of which consider themselves gay, both identifying as males, and the other two who indentify one as male, the other as female considering themselves straight. Dating only the 'opposite sex' as indentifed. Would the same doctor refusing to assist a transexual assist the intersexed person regardless of orientation. On the same hand do you think the same doctor would assist someone with klinefelter's. I'm not of course refering to just one doc, but one who would consider himself conservative enough to not like the GBLT community for whatever reason.

I had to read your post a couple of times to get it straight lol.

Well I would guess the "conservative" doctor who would not treat the GLBT community WOULD treat an intersexed person or klinefelter's person because I'm sure he would consider the transgender surgery or therapy "elective" rather than a congential defect that needed something done to it.
 
CA_1134 said:
I had to read your post a couple of times to get it straight lol.

Well I would guess the "conservative" doctor who would not treat the GLBT community WOULD treat an intersexed person or klinefelter's person because I'm sure he would consider the transgender surgery or therapy "elective" rather than a congential defect that needed something done to it.

I'm sorry about my ramblings, this is a topic I enjoy and I'd hate to miss out on it, but I am so freaking tired at the same time 😛

As a side note: I had never done much research into Klinefelter's had only heard it in passing. Doing a bit of research I never knew that it was also associated with leg ulcers. I haven't quite gotten into the 'meat and potatos' of it yet (plan on it tommarrow when I'm not so tired) but if anyone could tell me why in simple terms tonight that would rock 😛
 
Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but Klinefelter's = XXY syndrome. Triplicate genes potentially cause the variety of Klinefelter's symptoms. Seems like there's no one reason for the high proportion of lower limb ulcers...one explanation is underlying venous insufficiency, and for those w/ ulcers without vein problems, they think it might be caused by elevated plasminogen activator inhibitor-1. That's all I got from basic googling =)
 
That's more than what I got when I typed this into google:

klienfek''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

where I fell asleep typing 😛

I guess that means it's time to go to bed 😛

G'night SDN 🙂
 
y'all should check out TRANSAMERICA. great movie and felicity huffman rocks the boat.
-mota
 
My best friend has just disclosed that s/he will be transitioning to being male (s/he is still uncomfortable with pronouns hence my use of "s/he". I also am curious about what the physical effects are, and hope that such things are being studied to improve the options available to our trans. brothers and sisters.
 
What is intersex?

Who actually does the transgender surgeries? Urologists?
 
Intersex = what used to be called hermaphroditism, people who are born with some combo of internal and/or external sexual organs from both sexes (or could be ambiguous). Regarding who does GRS, it's something I've researched and unfortunately there's no clear path. You could go through urology, get a fellowship in reconstructive urology. Could also go through gen. surgery, or plastics.

I've also heard transamerica was awesome; can't wait to see it. My fav. movie on transsexualism is a documentary called "Southern Comfort." You can get it off netflix. Throughout the film there's a good discussion about the discrimination they've faced from the medical community (even, sadly, from their surgeons). The main focus of the film is on a VERY southern/rural post-op F2M man, and it follows the last year(s) of his life as he's dying from ovarian cancer (due to his crappy surgeon who left parts of his ovaries in) and no one will treat him because he's a man. Also focuses on his relationship w/ his M2F girlfriend, real and chosen families, transgendered friends, etc. Great film.
 
I've heard that SRS patients have to undergo counseling for about a year before they are "approved" for the surgery, and that it is a gradual process which starts with hormone administration. Then, from Female-Male, it's first a mastectomy... then after that goes well, the penile reconstruction. It isn't something that happens overnight (unlike Mr Garrison's "vaginoplasty" on South Park!) -- counseling happens every step of the way. As for purely physical side-effects, I would argue that (much more common!) GI resections and hernia operations have a much higher "risk".

I saw a Discovery Channel documentary a few years ago, on a very prominent surgeon who actually used to be male! Quite interesting.
 
Flopotomist said:
My best friend has just disclosed that s/he will be transitioning to being male (s/he is still uncomfortable with pronouns hence my use of "s/he". I also am curious about what the physical effects are, and hope that such things are being studied to improve the options available to our trans. brothers and sisters.

I think things are definitely improving. A friend of mine who I TAed women's studies with was already going by two letters- we'll say "J.D."- I never knew her real name- and she transitioned from "she" pronouns to "he" pronouns by the next year. I heard that he was working in the marina district in SF, passing as a male before surgery, and then had the surgery. I saw him about four years after graduating, about two years after surgery, and although I'm not intimately involved so I wouldn't see his genitalia, I can say that HE is definitely the proper pronoun at this point. I have a lot of respect for someone who is that brave.

Hey, for more info on this subject AND PICTURES for everyone who's curious - go here. I read a book by Loren Cameron and found a link to his site. He underwent surgery and therapy, and I think it should be pretty informative, if you get past the "mantool" hype/attention grabber. Enjoy.

http://www.lorencameron.com/
 
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I actually just saw that movie tow days ago. It was a good movie and I think it give an interesting perspective on the whole issue. I also highly recommend it.

RLR
 
I'll have to give that movie a go, sounds very interesting.

I don't know a whole like about FTM grs/srs so I don't know all the physical effects. When I was looking at it prior, what they would do would 'grow' the penis on your arm or somewhere else and use that skin. The FTM genetalia is no where near as refined as a MTF.

Most people who want to undergo the SRS/GRS have to do EXTENSIVE amounts of therapy. Alot of times they have to live as a woman for a year before they can move on to the next 'stage' of therapy.
 
Dominion said:
I'll have to give that movie a go, sounds very interesting.

I don't know a whole like about FTM grs/srs so I don't know all the physical effects. When I was looking at it prior, what they would do would 'grow' the penis on your arm or somewhere else and use that skin. The FTM genetalia is no where near as refined as a MTF.

Most people who want to undergo the SRS/GRS have to do EXTENSIVE amounts of therapy. Alot of times they have to live as a woman for a year before they can move on to the next 'stage' of therapy.

I have troubles imagining the exstensiveness of a FTM GRS.

If I were going to be applying for residency anytime in the next few years I would be looking into GRS. In the business aspect of medicine, you could market this surgery to make it very mainstream as long as you can cut the cost. Very few can afford it right now.
 
GLBTs all need to see psychiatrists before anything
 
NRAI2001 said:
What is intersex?

Who actually does the transgender surgeries? Urologists?



There is a reknown osteopathic plastic surgeon very involved in surgeries for transgenders in philly, so in my experience plastic surgeons.
 
Shredder said:
GLBTs all need to see psychiatrists before anything

Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals all have their analogs among other mammal species, are not maladaptive, and do not need mental health care.

Transexuals, who, it could be argued, are suffering from a type of body dysmorphic disorder, are another matter -- certainally they need a full assessment before anything as dramatic as lopping off their genitals.
 
Deep breath....

OK, probably none of you are still attentive to this thread.... but just in case someone else reads it later I wanted to answer a few of the really insightful questions you all have posed.

1) Long term studies? Actually there is one good one: Mortality and Morbidity in Transsexual Subjects Treated with Cross-Sex Hormones. Van Kesteren, P, et al. Clinical Endocrinology. 47, 337-342. 1997. Basically they followed over a thousand transgender people for up to 40 years, with an average of ten years in the study. About 95% of all Dutch transgender patients are treated at their clinic so they had a good populations. They found no significant difference in the morbidity or mortality between transgender men and cisgender (non-trans) women. There was no mortality difference between transwomen and cisgender men, but there was an increase in morbidity due to thromboembolic disease among transwomen. However this all but disapeared when they switched to transdermal estrogen in transwomen at greater risk (ex: age over 40.)

There are certainly other decent studies in the literature, but that is sort of 'Framingham for transpeople,' so if you read one.... read that.

2) Conservative versus Progressive politics. Actually it doesn't seem to sort well based on that. I know physicians who are otherwise pretty darn conservative who treat transpeople. And I know a couple of transgender women who are physicians.... who are pro-life. I also know one transwoman physician who is pro-life and homophobic.

No. For real. I'm not making that up.

3) Ethics of treating transgender people?
That is really a tough one... even for me (who treats a lot of transgender patients in my practice, and who am transgender myself.) But I will break it down as easily as I know:

There are 4 basic tenets of medical ethics: beneficence, non-malefesance, autonomy, and justice. I am really not comparing 'treating' versus 'not-treating' but rather whether one should be more liberal about treating people since that is the usual quandry.

Benefecince... are you helping? Well, there are several studies (albeit small) that show improved outcomes in transgender people. In aggregate there seems to be a decrease in suicidality from 20-30% to 1-5%. That coupled with the fact that true regrets are exceedingly rare argues for it. Of course if you take the subjective experience of your patients (the ones you are supposed to believe) it is an overall positive.

Non-Malefesance. The best argument I can make for this is patient safety. In the US, your change of being murdered in your lifetime is about 1:18,000. That number for transgender people is 1:12. (Source HRC.) In my own experience with transgender patients and friends I don't find that to be an outrageous figure. Largely the vulnerability to transphobic violence has to do with one thing only: visibility. As a sad example.... Gwen Araujo was not murdered till the realized she was trans. Physicians hold the key to providing patients the safety of passing. While for some, this is next to impossible, for many, adequate treatment is the key to passing, which for many equals safety. If you deprive them of this treatment, you place many transpeople at far greater risk than failing to treat someone's hypertension.

Autonomy.... um... nuff said.

Justice is the idea that everyone in a moral medical system has an equal distribution of the burdens and benefits. This is the antithesis of transcare for many patients. Most pay out of pocket (even if they have insurance because they will be denied.) Somehow it is OK for insurers to say 'we exclude GID' but not OK if they say 'we exclude diabetes.' In addition, the burden placed on transgender people by some to get treatment is pretty high. If someone with NIDDM faced the same sorts of hoops to jump, about 2% of all diabetics would have an A1C <9. The equivalent for a diabetic would be to say: 'well, before I treat you, you have to spend 3+ months with a dietician and exercize therapist... paid for out of pocket... and I want to see that A1C fall at least 1 point before we give you glucophage.' The only way that we get away with this is that selling hormones to transpeople is a lot easier than selling a colonoscopy to anyone.

And using the excuse that diagnosing and treating transgender people is somehow harder than treating people with other mental illnesses is.... just bunk. The reason its so hard? No one ever gets taught in med school or residency. However, having treated a lot of transpeople I can tell you... GID is WAAAAAY easier than NIDDM or Bipolar disorder.

4) Need for lots of therapy before treatment.
Eh... not really. The HBIGDA (the medical professional organization that promulgates the standards of care (SOC) for treating transgender people) SOC no longer have theapy as a requirement. Moreover, I have many successful transgender patients who've never been to therapy. Its like any other psychaitric issue... like depression... a experienced primary care provider can diagnose and treat 90% of patients, while a small percentage will need therapy.
With regards to surgeons... it depends on the surgeon. Many of those with a lot of experience do the same thing: if its not an obvious diagnosis they ask for a letter of referral. Though many will take such a letter from a primary care provider.
With regard to the evidince base supporting a need for therapy to ensure safe treatment (and no regrets)... there is none. The pre-treatment therapy concept was basically 'what seemed like a good idea' to those who started treating transgender people many decades ago. In the only study that looked at this, there was no difference in outcome between MTF patients who had surgery without therapy or a set duration of a real-life experience when compared with those who met the traditional requirements. So this is like treating kids with DKA with bicarb.... seemed like a good idea at the time, but didn't hold water when it was actually examined.

5) Is GID a mental illenss?
Yep. Here is my argument: http://www.makezine.org/giddisease.htm

6) SRS?
Most transmen want 'top surgery' - mastectomy aka chest reconstruction. Many can't afford it - see 'justice' above.
Some transmen want lower surgery - there are two options: phalloplasty (make a penis from something else) or metaidioplasty (aka 'meta') which takes the hypertrophied clitoris and moves it to the right place and tries to 'beef it up' making you, as a friend of my calls it 'hung like a light switch' - the clitoris elongates to only an average of 5cm after long term hormones. Some also get a urethral extension through the neo-phallus and may get 'scrotoplasty' which creates a scrotum from the labia. Neither of these surgeries is great....

Most transwomen want bottom surgery. If the options for transmen and surgery are like a '72 Pinto and an '82 Escort, the options for transwomen are... a Mercedes.... a Lexus... or a Caddilac. Much better cosmetic result. Unfortunately many transwomen will never be able to afford this.

I hope that helps.... if any of you are interested in more information, I'm happy to respond by email: nickgorton at gmail dot com.

Nick Gorton
 
CA_1134 said:
20-30 years ago (if GRS was even done then).

Absolutely - Christine Jorgenson, Jude Patton, Renee Richards are just three that "went public".

Some years ago, the University of Minnesota, Stanford, and Johns Hopkins were the only places in the US doing it. Before that, people had to go overseas - I think Renee Richards went to Morocco for her surgery.

I had a patient on the ambulance that was M2F that had her surgery in Thailand - didn't get too good of a job.
 
There was an old guy in colorado I believe that did the surgeries for a long long time and was suppossedly very good. They do have to live one year as the sex they wish to change too before the surgery. Including hormones, therapy, and lessons for behavior and what not....so the psychological fallout is usually much worse for the ones that don't change. The end result is suicide for those people many times. I think it is very legit but should be done properly....not something you want to bargain hunt for. I have met several people whom considered themselves trapped in the wrong body...it is a complicated deal and if it is a male they are generally nuts...as in they do these extreme macho activities to try and makeup for wanting to be a woman thinking it'll help. It is interesting that many of them start out as straight but then as they start the hormones and the transformation is complete they gradually shift towards the gender they started as...no idea whether to call it homosexual when they undergo surgeries to become a different gender. It is a very interesting topic that'd be best researched by going to a gender studies department somewhere...and probably by talking to a queer studies/gender studies student or professor.

Depending on who you talk to by the way....transgender and transexual can be very different...most would consider the terms interchangeable but when you get down to a certain area there are very specific differences that I don't know off the top of my head.
 
What kind of quack would do this surgery?

If I said that I am a no-limb person who was born in a limbed body would you do a quadruple amputation on me?
 
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The doctor you are referring to in Colorado is Stanley Biber, who recently died at 82. He had been performing SRS for over 30 years in Trinidad Colorado. Though the first ever SRS was done in 1931, I believe. Here is an NPR 'All Things Considered' story about his death: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5163832

As to who does these surgeries... many private practice surgeons throughout the world. In North America, Vancouver Coastal Health (which is the health authority that serves most of southwestern BC) recently established an interdisciplinary program that includes surgical treatment. If you want information about their program (and I believe they either are or ultimately will be offering training to surgical residents who are interested in SRS) more information is here: http://www.vch.ca/transhealth/ They also have clinical care guidelines that include a decent description of the procedures done. http://www.vch.ca/transhealth/resources/careguidelines.html

With regard to getting SRS in the US - there are several very qualified surgeons in the US. One of the better places to find referrals if you need for a patient is either from HBIGDA (www.hbigda.org) or from the GLMA (Gay and Lesbian Medical Association www.glma.org) referral database. Unfortunately, while there is pretty decent evidence that transgender patients have improved social and psychological function after SRS as well as a rate of suicide that decreases from about 20-30% to 1-5%, in the US many payers wont pay for care, so patients may have to go to less expensive surgeons overseas. (Not that this is always bad - I have several patients who have had SRS overseas who have excellent cosmetic and functional outcomes. Unfortunately, unlike the national health programs of many countries like the UK, Canada, Italy, etc private and public insurance in the US does not frequently fund SRS, so the US is in many ways behind the rest of the western world in this. Though this is changing, there are quite a few private insurers who have started offering this care in the past few years - like certain Kaiser and Aetna policies, the University of California and Michigan programs, etc.)

If you want more specific surgical information, there was an excellent American Society of Plastic Surgeons CME review last year. It goes into the basics of GID treatment and goes into great detail about male to female genital reconstruction: Selvaggi G, et al. "Gender Identity Disorder: General Overview and Surgical Treatment for Vaginoplasty in Male-to-Female Transsexuals." Plast Reconstr Surg. 2005 Nov;116(6):135e-145e.

As to what kind of quack would do this? Well, in addition to the Vancouver Coastal Health program that I spoke about above, some of the university hospital programs are:
Gender Identity Clinic of the Free University Hospital, Amsterdam, the Netherlands
The Ghent University Hospital Gender Identity Clinic
Intituto di Clinica Urologica Università-OspedaleCattinara, Trieste-Italy

Remember, Ghostfoot just because you are a closed-minded regarding transgender health care, that doesn't mean that most or even many other physicians are. Though in this, the proof is ultimately in the patient outcomes. That is, what should guide your care in any patient with any ailment is the idea that the care that provides them the best long term outcomes rather than what 'seems right' to you personally or what doesn't challenge your personal views of the world.

Nick
 
RNG said:
Remember, Ghostfoot just because you are a closed-minded regarding transgender health care, that doesn't mean that most or even many other physicians are. Though in this, the proof is ultimately in the patient outcomes. That is, what should guide your care in any patient with any ailment is the idea that the care that provides them the best long term outcomes rather than what 'seems right' to you personally or what doesn't challenge your personal views of the world.

Nick


How are "patient outcomes" determined in your examples, Nick?

Are the patients really being cared for, or are you merely appeasing pathological compulsions?

The fact that Canada and the Netherlands does it doesn't make it right.
 
ghostfoot said:
How are "patient outcomes" determined in your examples, Nick?

Are the patients really being cared for, or are you merely appeasing pathological compulsions?

The fact that Canada and the Netherlands does it doesn't make it right.

It depends on the specific study what the outcomes are. Though probably the most common outcome variable that is used is suicidality. It runs 20-30% pre-treatment, and 1-3% post treatment in most studies. However, just like everything in medicine there are many way to measure outcomes... what percentage of people are in long term relationships, what percentage are gainfully employed, how much people needed to access psychotherapeutic services before and after treatment, any number of different scales and measures of social and psychological function.

However, if you are genuinely interested, I would be happy to email you several of the better and/or more recent studies. Though the best suggestion I would have is to actually encounter and be involved in the treatment of people who are transgender. What you learn from treating real people can often teach you more that reading a book about it. That's also the best cure I know for the kind of pejorative ideas you are expressing. If you are interested, again, email me and I will see if I can arrange for you a clinical opportunity to learn about this group of patients.

Nick
 
QuikClot said:
Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals all have their analogs among other mammal species, are not maladaptive, and do not need mental health care.

Transexuals, who, it could be argued, are suffering from a type of body dysmorphic disorder, are another matter -- certainally they need a full assessment before anything as dramatic as lopping off their genitals.


If a behavior is seen in other mammals, it's not maladaptive??

That's ridiculous -- my dog sniffs people's crotches and eats his own vomit in public. For a human, that is clearly not acceptable behavior.

Also, is a lifestyle that makes propagation of the species impossible not maladaptive by definition?

Where did you get this idea?
 
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