PhD/PsyD Transition from Clinical to Research

[NY-Psych-Dream]

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Hi all,

I have a PhD in clinical psychology from a clinically-focused program. In August, I completed a clinical postdoc and got licensed. I have one middle author paper published. I'm looking to get my dissertation published this year.

I want to transition to a research-focused career after working exclusively in clinical service. I'm having a lot difficulty in figuring out how to do this.

I'm volunteering with a patient-oriented research lab to get some manuscripts published,but it's been slow-going because the PI is reluctant to mentor me unless I get some kind of funding and it feels worth her while. The PI suggested a diversity supplement to her R01, but I'm not a member of the underrepresented ethnic groups they have listed on the application. I can, however, make an argument for being underrepresented in research due to my parents being refugees, being an immigrant, and many other struggles. However, I'm still not sure this would be a good enough argument to get it accepted.

The PI also suggested going back to school and getting a masters in public health and then ultimately doing a project with the PI.

The ultimate goal to do a T32 fellowship or a K career grant. I'm not sure what would make me competitive enough to obtain these grants and begin my research career. What pathways do you suggest to get going in research? Number of publications?

 

[bcliff]

What’s your end goal, after the K award or T32? A tenure-track faculty position?

If looking to immediately have 0 clinical responsibilities, then I’d suggest looking for a research associate position (one rung above research assistant in most settings). I’d use this position to get on pubs and presentations and build up my research acumen with stats, methods, and minutiae, like IRB prep, etc.

For right now, there are also a ton of deidentified, publicly available datasets that you can download, analyze, and publish with.

Your best bet is to probably get a clinical faculty position within an AMC, fund yourself fully with clinical responsibilities for the time being, then gradually apply for grants, perhaps even get on some of your colleagues’ grants as Co-I. Use this as an opportunity to gain experience and exposure to grant writing while not sacrificing income. Over time, you can reduce the % of time you spend working on clinical activities. You can also use this position as a stepping stone to a more traditional faculty gig within a college of arts and sciences psychology department. Any department with a clinical program will view your clinical training (e.g., postdoc, license, AMC experience) as a strength, and I imagine that even some without a clinical program will still view it as a selling point.

I honestly can’t imagine any reason why, with a PhD in hand, publishable dissertation, clinical postdoc under your belt, and clinical license, that you would need a whole new degree to get a paid research position that offers some type of research mentorship. Is there something I’m missing?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Lots of questions:

Are you employed?
In what setting is your current lab/PI? AMC?
Your status is postdoc, is that accurate? How many years since your PhD?
What kind of PhD program did you attend? For-profit? Accredited? University? Well-regarded?
Why the change of mind? What kind of research? What kind of setting?
What other skills/experiences do you have? Teaching? Specialty?
Are you geographically restricted?

If you gave us more info, we could help more. At the moment, your case is very difficult to grasp.

 

[NY-Psych-Dream]

Lots of questions:

Are you employed?
In what setting is your current lab/PI? AMC?
Your status is postdoc, is that accurate? How many years since your PhD?
What kind of PhD program did you attend? For-profit? Accredited? University? Well-regarded?
Why the change of mind? What kind of research? What kind of setting?
What other skills/experiences do you have? Teaching? Specialty?
Are you geographically restricted?

If you gave us more info, we could help more. At the moment, your case is very difficult to grasp.

Thanks for the response. I was unsure what information was needed.

I am currently employed at a community clinic focusing on service provision.
The PI's lab is at an ivy university's medical center.
I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. Got my PhD in 2019. As far as research, my status would be postdoc.
I went to an APA-accredited professional school of psychology. There were few opportunities in research, but I was able to complete a dissertation that can be published and I'm working on that with my advisor. It's a mid-tier school I would say.
I don't think it's so much change of mind, but rather the interest is reinforced. I see I realized during grad school I had this interest but things were chaotic (personal life) at the time and I wasn't able to to devote a lot of time in seeking opportunities in research.
I'm interested in reproductive mental health. My dissertation is on postpartum depression, the PI I volunteer with does reproductive mental health research, I would like to continue doing this type of research (patient-oriented) in a medical center setting.
I am teaching as an adjunct at a college in the area.

My clinical specialization is reproductive mental health and trauma.

I am geographically restricted for the next year, at least.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I’m confused. How can you be a licensed clinical psychologist if you got your PhD at most three months ago? Was 2019 a typo?

 

[HeftyLefty]

Ks seem to have gotten wildly competitive. The 3 individuals I know who recently received them had 25+ publications, 10+ were first author and in some bigger name journals. 2/3 also got TT positions at R1s. For perspective, a fourth person I know who applied and did not get one was competitive enough to land TT position at R1 a couple months later.

 

[Ollie123]

Depending on your situation, going back for an MPH or similar might actually make sense. I don't know exactly where you went or what your experience is, but generally speaking "professional school" is pretty incompatible with a research career. You may be the exception...your program may be the exception...but the "norm" is for these folks to not really be much (if at all) beyond undergrad-level when it comes to research. Not saying this to be harsh, just that I think its important to recognize the reality. I'm on this path (AMC faculty, have a K23, some smaller NIH grants and starting to go after larger ones). I

At present, you are almost certainly not competitive for a K. Point blank. Do not waste your time, it is not an option. 25+ publications probably isn't necessary, but a minimum of 10 probably is. A lot depends on type of publication and journals too...someone cranking out surveys is not likely to be as competitive as someone with experience in complex methodology, clinical trials, lab studies, etc. You are likely not even competitive for a T32 slot. I agree with others that an entry-level research position may be viable, but its going to be difficult to find one that will provide you the time and the training you really need to grow.

 

[NY-Psych-Dream]

I’m confused. How can you be a licensed clinical psychologist if you got your PhD at most three months ago? Was 2019 a typo?

Yes it's a typo. I got my PhD in 2017, licensed in 2018.

 

[NY-Psych-Dream]

Depending on your situation, going back for an MPH or similar might actually make sense. I don't know exactly where you went or what your experience is, but generally speaking "professional school" is pretty incompatible with a research career. You may be the exception...your program may be the exception...but the "norm" is for these folks to not really be much (if at all) beyond undergrad-level when it comes to research. Not saying this to be harsh, just that I think its important to recognize the reality. I'm on this path (AMC faculty, have a K23, some smaller NIH grants and starting to go after larger ones). I

At present, you are almost certainly not competitive for a K. Point blank. Do not waste your time, it is not an option. 25+ publications probably isn't necessary, but a minimum of 10 probably is. A lot depends on type of publication and journals too...someone cranking out surveys is not likely to be as competitive as someone with experience in complex methodology, clinical trials, lab studies, etc. You are likely not even competitive for a T32 slot. I agree with others that an entry-level research position may be viable, but its going to be difficult to find one that will provide you the time and the training you really need to grow.

No harsh at all. I'm trying to be realistic. I'm not even thinking about applying for a T32 fellowship or K right now. I am working on pubs right now, including my dissertation. But i have found postdoc level entry level research positions and going to apply to them. My main question is at what point can I be competitive enough for a T32? Because the PI is willing to work with me if I meet the criteria for a T32, but I am unable to find what it entails for an R1.

 

[Ollie123]

Tough to say exactly what the "criteria" might be, since the pools for these can vary tremendously in any given year based on what other options exist (e.g. post-docs funded via other grant mechanisms). Its also hard because in this situation because you will need to overcome some stigma...most serious researchers are just not going to consider someone from a professional school for a T32 slot, so if anything you would likely need more than the average candidate...but you are now in a position where you have less. In theory, you could work in research for a few years to get experience, etc., but I have never heard of someone doing that and then ending up on a T32. Probably for a few different reasons (i.e. many years of poor pay beyond grad school) and that doesn't mean it is impossible, but it feels a little like round peg/square hole. If you are willing to move <literally> anywhere, T32s at smaller schools in undesirable locations certainly have more difficulty finding post-docs...but are also uncommon. I think the likelihood of finding one that could also offer mentorship in your desired research area is unlikely. You want a reasonably strong publication record, but even moreso they want to know that you have a very strong foundation in research. The focus of T32s is different...they generally aren't in the business of providing basics on research design, intro stats, etc. Its more about fine-tuning - at least for the ones that typically accept psychologists. That's a tough sell coming from a program that didn't have much in the way of research opportunities and it sounds like you might need more.

UNC-CH had a T32 specifically focused on reproductive mood disorders a few years ago (not sure if still around) and is generally strong in that area, so might be worth keeping an eye on...if you can get in there clinically and then work towards collaboration, you might be able to build that way (imagine starting as a study therapist for example and learning more and more). This is going to be a very long haul into a traditional research-focused academic role, but would likely offer better pay and less relocation along the way.


Options I would at least consider:
- MPH or other master's-level research degree (Data science?). Many of these are not like psychology programs and can be done part-time while working. If you do MPH, for the love of god do not focus on "health policy" or something where the training is pretty fluffy. Epidemiology, biostats, or something intensive.
- Entry-level research job and working your butt off to climb the ladder
- Clinical job in an AMC with potential for collaboration on research projects
- AMC with a "Clinical science training program" or something like that. We have one here and I know many other institutions do too. They are primarily geared towards MDs who want to get into running pharma clinical trials, but some might accept PhDs too.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

As pointed out, you would be fighting a pretty big uphill battle if you tried to go the traditional route and changed toward a more research-orientated career.

My recommendation is to find a primarily teaching job, where you will have the opportunity to continue your own research program. As a clinical PhD (even from a prof school) with teaching experience, you will be much more competitive for teaching school (undergrad and masters) jobs. I am guessing you are in the NYC-area based on the username, but if you were willing to move anywhere in the US and had high-quality materials, I doubt you would have problem finding a job. If you can score a 5- or 6-class yearly load (15-18 credits), that would be ideal. An 8-class load (24 credits) s a bit more difficult. Stay away from 10-class loads (15 per semester) b/c I can't imagine doing any research in that setting. At a teaching university you are still required to do research and you can work on the topics that interest you/fit the resources of the university/area,

Here are some jobs coming out even now to start in the fall. I hope this emphasizes the demand for clinical PhDs that can teach.

Assistant Professor, Psychology - HigherEdJobs

Jobs in higher education. Faculty and administrative positions at colleges and universities. Updated daily. Free to job seekers.

www.higheredjobs.com

Assistant Professor of Psychology - HigherEdJobs

Jobs in higher education. Faculty and administrative positions at colleges and universities. Updated daily. Free to job seekers.

www.higheredjobs.com

 

[RejectClinical]

A lot of good advice here, but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. Trying to buy out of clinical time at an AMC is not as easy as one would think, although it depends on the AMC. I've seen many experienced researchers (those with big grants and tons of publications) get burned because clinic will always take precedence. They've had to come to a crossroads where they are deciding between working a ton of hours or letting the research productivity decrease (usually both happen). Plus, if you've already signed a contract, that will be sticky as well because you want to make sure you have support for buying out of clinic. Is the AMC OK with this? Is there a plan for seeing patients when you buy out/get that grant? How many patients/RVUs/hours can you buy out of? These and other questions I'd wonder about. Plus, from my experience, usually the support is hard to come by if you don't have a track record of research productivity.

I would seriously look into how many hours you are working clinically a week. Those will not go away while you're applying for grants or trying to get published.

 

[futureapppsy2]

As pointed out, you would be fighting a pretty big uphill battle if you tried to go the traditional route and changed toward a more research-orientated career.

My recommendation is to find a primarily teaching job, where you will have the opportunity to continue your own research program. As a clinical PhD (even from a prof school) with teaching experience, you will be much more competitive for teaching school (undergrad and masters) jobs. I am guessing you are in the NYC-area based on the username, but if you were willing to move anywhere in the US and had high-quality materials, I doubt you would have problem finding a job. If you can score a 5- or 6-class yearly load (15-18 credits), that would be ideal. An 8-class load (24 credits) s a bit more difficult. Stay away from 10-class loads (15 per semester) b/c I can't imagine doing any research in that setting. At a teaching university you are still required to do research and you can work on the topics that interest you/fit the resources of the university/area,

Here are some jobs coming out even now to start in the fall. I hope this emphasizes the demand for clinical PhDs that can teach.

Assistant Professor, Psychology - HigherEdJobs

Jobs in higher education. Faculty and administrative positions at colleges and universities. Updated daily. Free to job seekers.

www.higheredjobs.com

Assistant Professor of Psychology - HigherEdJobs

Jobs in higher education. Faculty and administrative positions at colleges and universities. Updated daily. Free to job seekers.

www.higheredjobs.com

I don't think it will be that easy for the OP to get a teaching job with no teaching experience. I've taught at a teaching heavy masters university (between 3 and 4 courses a semester), and I can't see anyone getting hired or even to the campus interview stage without teaching experience as the instructor of record, either in grad school or as an adjunct.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

I don't think it will be that easy for the OP to get a teaching job with no teaching experience. I've taught at a teaching heavy masters university (between 3 and 4 courses a semester), and I can't see anyone getting hired or even to the campus interview stage without teaching experience as the instructor of record, either in grad school or as an adjunct.

I believe the OP said they were working as an adjunct at a local college in comment #4.

 

[WisNeuro]

I believe the OP said they were working as an adjunct at a local college in comment #4.

Obtaining a teaching job as an adjunct is easy. Obtaining a teaching job at a university where you also have time/resources to do research, not so easy. Unless the OP is very flexible geographically, this will be very tough.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Obtaining a teaching job as an adjunct is easy. Obtaining a teaching job at a university where you also have time/resources to do research, not so easy. Unless the OP is very flexible geographically, this will be very tough.

Oh, I completely agree. I was just responding to the following comment where they said that it would be difficult to get a teaching job without having worked as an adjunct to point out that the OP did say they currently worked as an adjunct. Either way, a career switch to a more research focused position is certainly going to be a challenge for the OP.

I don't think it will be that easy for the OP to get a teaching job with no teaching experience. I've taught at a teaching heavy masters university (between 3 and 4 courses a semester), and I can't see anyone getting hired or even to the campus interview stage without teaching experience as the instructor of record, either in grad school or as an adjunct.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I believe the OP said they were working as an adjunct at a local college in comment #4.

Thanks for catching that. I still think it’ll not be easy for the OP to get a faculty position—most people who got jobs even at my very teaching heavy university in an “undesirable area” had 2-3 or more publications in addition to considerable teaching experience. And in my experience, teaching a lot of new preps cuts into research time substantially.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I still think it’ll not be easy for the OP to get a faculty position—most people who got jobs even at my very teaching heavy university in an “undesirable area” had 2-3 or more publications in addition to considerable teaching experience. And in my experience, teaching a lot of new preps cuts into research time substantially.

Yes, a handful of pubs (at least one 1st author), good teaching evals, and good letters. I've seen the competition for a few (obviously anecdotal) clinical positions at undergrad and masters programs. It can be hard to find 3-4 high-quality applicants to even interview. Geographically undesirable is very subjective. I've seen job ads throughout the country that seem very appealing.

I blelieve the OP has a better chance with improving their current CV and applying for those positions than the AMC route.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Yes, a handful of pubs (at least one 1st author), good teaching evals, and good letters. I've seen the competition for a few (obviously anecdotal) clinical positions at undergrad and masters programs. It can be hard to find 3-4 high-quality applicants to even interview. Geographically undesirable is very subjective. I've seen job ads throughout the country that seem very appealing.

I blelieve the OP has a better chance with improving their current CV and applying for those positions than the AMC route.

Oh, I agree. I just don’t want the OP to think getting a teaching-focused position will be a walk in the park, especially with many of those schools facing enrollment issues.

 

[deleted343839]

want to transition to a research-focused career after working exclusively in clinical service.

Very few people do this. I personally know two. One is a physician and the other a psychologist, both of whom have been extremely successful in making the switch and now have had multiple federal grants as PIs. It is perhaps coincidental but worth noting nonetheless that both of them developed their careers in less-than-hot geographical regions.

I'm volunteering with a patient-oriented research lab to get some manuscripts published,but it's been slow-going because the PI is reluctant to mentor me unless I get some kind of funding and it feels worth her while. The PI suggested a diversity supplement to her R01, but I'm not a member of the underrepresented ethnic groups they have listed on the application. I can, however, make an argument for being underrepresented in research due to my parents being refugees, being an immigrant, and many other struggles. However, I'm still not sure this would be a good enough argument to get it accepted.

If your PI is on board, this is a solid option, so it's worth thoroughly investigating to find out whether you might be qualified. But don't do this without first talking with someone at the institute where your prospective PI/mentor is funded. Each institute that supports diversity supplements has some designated contacts for this program. You can find them here: Research Supplements to Promote Diversity in Health-Related Research. Contacts, Submission Dates and Special Instructions | grants.nih.gov

The PI also suggested going back to school and getting a masters in public health and then ultimately doing a project with the PI.

I think you have to do an honest assessment of your research skills. How familiar are you with design and methodology especially for randomized trials? What are your stats skills beyond basic univariate tests? If someone gave you a pot of money and expected publishable results in a couple of years, would you know what to do? These are all questions you should ask yourself. If you don't feel very confident in your ability to conduct research independently, then it's worth giving some serious thought to some additional formal training.

The ultimate goal to do a T32 fellowship or a K career grant. I'm not sure what would make me competitive enough to obtain these grants and begin my research career.

As others have stated, this is an uphill battle. The K is really not an option I would even think about in the near term. You'd need to have an academic appointment to even apply for one and depending on your circumstances by then it may or may not be a good fit, your chair may or may not support it, etc. As for the T32, I noticed that a while back you had posted about an out-of-state T32 in your research area. I assume that geographical restriction held you back from pursuing that?

You've heard a number of opinions here but I would also recommend looking into the AMC faculty path, especially if you will remain geographically restricted. There are pitfalls for sure - for instance, if you could get a job in this setting you would likely be non-tenure track and that would mean less support for developing your research and maybe being ineligible for some internal funding opportunities. Even if you were able to get a grant you would probably not be able to "buy out" more than a day or two a week, which is really hard to balance with clinic responsibilities. There is a very real risk that you would never be able to break out of being on a "clinical track" and would have to go straight back to full-time clinical work if your funding dried up. On the other hand, it can be advantageous in your field to build relationships with medical departments (in your case, an OB/GYN department), which is naturally easier to do when you are on the faculty of an AMC. Also, with a faculty-level appointment you would be earning a salary commensurate with your level of training as well as benefits, a retirement plan, etc. Many AMCs also offer tuition assistance or professional development funds for faculty if you did want to pursue additional stats or research training. If you could see yourself happy with doing some (or mostly) clinical work and having some protected time for research, without necessarily being a full-time PI, it's not a bad life.

Others have recommended research associate positions, but it can be really difficult to transition from this type of role to a faculty job. If your goal is to focus 100% on research, and soon, then instead I'd look hard for a research-focused postdoc, assuming you feel pretty confident in your research skills.

On a final note, get that dissertation published! Regardless of which path you choose it will help to have a first-authored publication on your CV. Whatever it takes, get it done and behind you ASAP.

 

[NY-Psych-Dream]

Thank you all for your responses. I am geographically restricted at the moment due to several factors. I know it's an uphill battle and I am certainly not thinking that a T32 or K grant is something that will happen very soon. I am realistic about my expectations. I think what I wanted out of this conversation and what I got out of it is what the different pathways are and which are the most likely paths for where I want to go. So I thank you all.

 

[NY-Psych-Dream]

Very few people do this. I personally know two. One is a physician and the other a psychologist, both of whom have been extremely successful in making the switch and now have had multiple federal grants as PIs. It is perhaps coincidental but worth noting nonetheless that both of them developed their careers in less-than-hot geographical regions.



If your PI is on board, this is a solid option, so it's worth thoroughly investigating to find out whether you might be qualified. But don't do this without first talking with someone at the institute where your prospective PI/mentor is funded. Each institute that supports diversity supplements has some designated contacts for this program. You can find them here: Research Supplements to Promote Diversity in Health-Related Research. Contacts, Submission Dates and Special Instructions | grants.nih.gov



I think you have to do an honest assessment of your research skills. How familiar are you with design and methodology especially for randomized trials? What are your stats skills beyond basic univariate tests? If someone gave you a pot of money and expected publishable results in a couple of years, would you know what to do? These are all questions you should ask yourself. If you don't feel very confident in your ability to conduct research independently, then it's worth giving some serious thought to some additional formal training.



As others have stated, this is an uphill battle. The K is really not an option I would even think about in the near term. You'd need to have an academic appointment to even apply for one and depending on your circumstances by then it may or may not be a good fit, your chair may or may not support it, etc. As for the T32, I noticed that a while back you had posted about an out-of-state T32 in your research area. I assume that geographical restriction held you back from pursuing that?

You've heard a number of opinions here but I would also recommend looking into the AMC faculty path, especially if you will remain geographically restricted. There are pitfalls for sure - for instance, if you could get a job in this setting you would likely be non-tenure track and that would mean less support for developing your research and maybe being ineligible for some internal funding opportunities. Even if you were able to get a grant you would probably not be able to "buy out" more than a day or two a week, which is really hard to balance with clinic responsibilities. There is a very real risk that you would never be able to break out of being on a "clinical track" and would have to go straight back to full-time clinical work if your funding dried up. On the other hand, it can be advantageous in your field to build relationships with medical departments (in your case, an OB/GYN department), which is naturally easier to do when you are on the faculty of an AMC. Also, with a faculty-level appointment you would be earning a salary commensurate with your level of training as well as benefits, a retirement plan, etc. Many AMCs also offer tuition assistance or professional development funds for faculty if you did want to pursue additional stats or research training. If you could see yourself happy with doing some (or mostly) clinical work and having some protected time for research, without necessarily being a full-time PI, it's not a bad life.

Others have recommended research associate positions, but it can be really difficult to transition from this type of role to a faculty job. If your goal is to focus 100% on research, and soon, then instead I'd look hard for a research-focused postdoc, assuming you feel pretty confident in your research skills.

On a final note, get that dissertation published! Regardless of which path you choose it will help to have a first-authored publication on your CV. Whatever it takes, get it done and behind you ASAP.

Thank you so much for this! So comprehensive and so helpful.

The PI and I are submitting my diversity supplement application to the program officer to determine if I fit criteria. If I do, then this opportunity would allow me to gain more in-depth stats skills, research design/methodology, and a couple publications. She thinks it would be good prep for seeking additional funding after completing the two years.

However, if that doesn't pan out, I am seriously considering MPH in biostatistics at the university the PI works.

I was also offered a post-doc in research position in another state by a mentor but geographic restrictions prevented me from pursuing it. The offer still stands for next year so it's still an option if my partner's job affords him some flexibility.

I am looking into the AMC faculty path. There was a recent position posted for which I applied in my PIs department which would be ideal because then I can continue working with her.

There are a few viable options, which allows me to continue hoping. Your response was very thoughtful and encouraging, but real. I appreciate it.