Transition to suboxone for high MME

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Could use some advice

Getting a lot of referrals, consults for patients on high MME doses. Some are > 400 MME and have been on these doses for years- ex palliative patients or ramped up by unscrupulous docs in the community 8-10 yrs ago.

Weaning these patients is extremely painful. Takes a long time etc. as you all know. All of these patients have significant physiologic and psychological dependence. I would rather just transition them to safer medications rather than a long and probably fruitless taper.

I've read some articles that say you can transition to suboxone even if you are on high MME doses, > 400, and that patients won't necessarily withdraw.

Does anyone have experience with this? Algos what are your thoughts? I don't have an x waiver, but my state allows for suboxone prescribing for chronic pain, and I would do it under these auspices.

I am not a PP Pain doc who is necessarily in a position to refuse to see these patients- rather I am trying to help the health system I am in.

Thanks

- ex 61N

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They must be in moderate withdrawal according to COWS scale to begin buprenorphine or they will go into precipitated withdrawal. I suggest taking one of the online X waiver courses to learn about suboxone.

I'm not algos, but at those levels I recommend to patients inpatient detox followed by re-evaluation of their pain and development of a treatment plan.
 
They must be in moderate withdrawal according to COWS scale to begin buprenorphine or they will go into precipitated withdrawal. I suggest taking one of the online X waiver courses to learn about suboxone.

I'm not algos, but at those levels I recommend to patients inpatient detox followed by re-evaluation of their pain and development of a treatment plan.

I've tried taking over these patients and weaning them down and anecdotally have had poor outcomes for 90% of them. You can try to reach that 10%, but they are probably better served via inpatient detox as suggested and then once they clear it if they have a clear indication for chronic opioid therapy can be restarted on a reasonable treatment plan. Otherwise you can't help those who don't want to help themselves.
 
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I've tried taking over these patients and weaning them down and anecdotally have had poor outcomes for 90% of them. You can try to reach that 10%, but they are probably better served via inpatient detox as suggested and then once they clear it if they have a clear indication for chronic opioid therapy can be restarted on a reasonable treatment plan. Otherwise you can't help those who don't want to help themselves.

I have very good success rates with these.

I tell them I will decrease their narcotic medications dramatically. If they don't like it, they will need another doctor, but since their PCP sent them to me due to their high narcotic doses, I doubt anyone else will take them.

After they attempt to shop around for other docs, they find out quickly they are unable to get any other docs to prescribe them and after much whining they accept the titration schedule due to having no other choice.
 
I have very good success rates with these.

I tell them I will decrease their narcotic medications dramatically. If they don't like it, they will need another doctor, but since their PCP sent them to me due to their high narcotic doses, I doubt anyone else will take them.

After they attempt to shop around for other docs, they find out quickly they are unable to get any other docs to prescribe them and after much whining they accept the titration schedule due to having no other choice.

After you tell them no I won’t continue your high dose opioids that they have been getting from their PCP for years (PCP is either retiring or they just moved to the area) they usually storm out, cursing your name,pissing off staff, and posting negative reviews. Then they call a week later and want to be seen after nobody else will even see them. No thanks

BTW I screen all of my referrals and the patient would have been told before they came for first visit that at a minimum I am not continuing the crazy concoction they have been on. Will wean and change. But people still think they can change your mind.

“But I don’t understand my PCP was giving it to me. It is just that my new PCP Says it’s against the law for him to write them. He said you would have to write them.”
 
I just had a chart come across my desk. Pt on MSContin 100mg q12 and has IR 15 mg for breakthrough for CRPS. Previous doc took away the IR and told the patient they would start weaning to below 90 mg OME per day. Documented that patient did not agree with wean and therefore they would give one final 30 day script and they were discharging the patient with instructions to follow up with another pain clinic.

This patient will not become mine. But isn't this a form of abandonment? If no aberrant behaviors shouldn't they at least provide the wean? Let the patient decide to self discharge but what's going to happen to this guy in 30 days?


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Could use some advice

Getting a lot of referrals, consults for patients on high MME doses. Some are > 400 MME and have been on these doses for years- ex palliative patients or ramped up by unscrupulous docs in the community 8-10 yrs ago.

Weaning these patients is extremely painful. Takes a long time etc. as you all know. All of these patients have significant physiologic and psychological dependence. I would rather just transition them to safer medications rather than a long and probably fruitless taper.

I've read some articles that say you can transition to suboxone even if you are on high MME doses, > 400, and that patients won't necessarily withdraw.

Does anyone have experience with this? Algos what are your thoughts? I don't have an x waiver, but my state allows for suboxone prescribing for chronic pain, and I would do it under these auspices.

I am not a PP Pain doc who is necessarily in a position to refuse to see these patients- rather I am trying to help the health system I am in.

Thanks

- ex 61N

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I just had a chart come across my desk. Pt on MSContin 100mg q12 and has IR 15 mg for breakthrough for CRPS. Previous doc took away the IR and told the patient they would start weaning to below 90 mg OME per day. Documented that patient did not agree with wean and therefore they would give one final 30 day script and they were discharging the patient with instructions to follow up with another pain clinic.

This patient will not become mine. But isn't this a form of abandonment? If no aberrant behaviors shouldn't they at least provide the wean? Let the patient decide to self discharge but what's going to happen to this guy in 30 days?


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Abandoning the therapy is not abandoning the patient. Patient elected to not go along with plan of care. Buh bye.
 
Abandoning the therapy is not abandoning the patient. Patient elected to not go along with plan of care. Buh bye.

I don't disagree with you. I think I would have at least given the guy the number to some local detox places and documented that. He will likely become some lucky ER doc's problem when he starts to withdraw.


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What is the alernative?
Let the Pt force u to give them high dose opioids forever?!????

Makes zero sense

You must have misread my post. If patient declines what i offer, that is on them. If they refuse my wean, they are on their own. None of this is abandoning the patient.
 
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Run PDMP before office visit. Scheduler will call and give patient the information. Recommend inpatient rehab, Bradford etc.

1. Do not schedule office visit. Seeing these patients knowing there is not much to offer is not fair to these patients.
2. Give them information about inpatient as well as suboxone.
3. Do not experiment and try to think we know a lot about addiction medicine/ psychiatry.
4. Most of these patients have complex psych issues that go beyond high MED doses.
5. Know your limitations and pick your battles.

This is what I do. Not judging others but my sanity is back. I see a lot less patients now but at least I’m smiling all day most days.
 
After you tell them no I won’t continue your high dose opioids that they have been getting from their PCP for years (PCP is either retiring or they just moved to the area) they usually storm out, cursing your name,pissing off staff, and posting negative reviews. Then they call a week later and want to be seen after nobody else will even see them. No thanks

BTW I screen all of my referrals and the patient would have been told before they came for first visit that at a minimum I am not continuing the crazy concoction they have been on. Will wean and change. But people still think they can change your mind.

“But I don’t understand my PCP was giving it to me. It is just that my new PCP Says it’s against the law for him to write them. He said you would have to write them.”

That is true. Ratings do take a beating when you are a hard ass on opioids.

Oh well.

Your statements are identical to that crap I go through as well when tapering down these nightmares.
 
You must have misread my post. If patient declines what i offer, that is on them. If they refuse my wean, they are on their own. None of this is abandoning the patient.

Correct.

I've discharged patients with weaning schedules that are very abusive/disruptive towards my staff when they dont get higher narcotic dosages that they demand.

That is definitely not abandonment.
 
I agree with you guys at this point.

The patient in question whom I'm posting about wasn't abusive (at least wasn't documented) and has been on high dose COT from this group for years. I guess I'm just surprised that they were so quick to discharge a patient that seems like an otherwise good citizen especially since they're the ones who created the mess. I try not to discharge patients unless they have behavioral issues towards staff or are using illicits while on opioids (and I don't give any parting scripts).

All patients in my practice are at 90 OME or less and those who came on higher doses were weaned whether they agreed or not. I haven't had anyone leave.


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Just because you make a mistake for years doesn’t mean you have to keep making that same mistake. They offered her a wean which was the right decision and she declined.
 
I don't disagree with you. I think I would have at least given the guy the number to some local detox places and documented that. He will likely become some lucky ER doc's problem when he starts to withdraw.


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What do the ERs do with these people?
I have had it where because of their crappy insurance none of the detox places will take them. So I will tell them to go to ER.
Admit them? To what service?
 
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sometimes the ERs will prescribe opioids, which is the wrong thing to do. it may be unintentional ("doc, I lost my pills, the office is open on Monday" type of story)

sometimes ERs will refer or be able to send patients to a detox unit overnight.

the reasonable ones will stabilize VS, give tizanidine, clonidine, oral hydration, etc. the stuff we all recommend...
 
Theoretically, you can switch anyone on any MED to Suboxone as long as it's not methadone; I have colleagues who say that they've done this with excellent results but my experience is limited. I think it's potentially a great option for someone on hundreds of mg of Oxycodone who is otherwise facing a long, slow, agonizing taper.
It would help a lot if Buprenorphine was freely available as a pain treatment, so you wouldn't have to diagnose a patient with opioid use disorder who may not meet any of the criteria for this (being dependent and tolerant doesn't count if you're getting the opioids from a legal prescriber).
 
"(being dependent and tolerant doesn't count if you're getting the opioids from a legal prescriber)"

Here is the actual text: "This criterion is not considered to be met for those taking opioids solely under appropriate medical supervision."
With the data accumulated since 2010 on OD deaths and addiction with high doses, the long-standing outlier status of the US internationally for opioid Rx'ing,
and the 2016 CDC guidelines, the standard of care has changed. While > 90 MED may have been excepted practice in 2000 it no longer is.
No high dose legacy patient has had appropriate medical supervision, and thus tolerance and withdrawal DO apply to the diagnosis of OUD
in this cohort.
 
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re rotation to suboxone for pain ... I have been doing this a fair amount at my current practice with mostly good results.

I am a primary care doc with some clinical (non-fellowship) experience in using Suboxone/bupe by moonlighting in suboxone clinic serving heroin addicts, pain pill addicts and ordinary old pain patients during family med residency. Prior to moonlighting, I took the 8 hour online buppractice.org course over a weekend, got waivered. kept it active.

I'm now part of large multi-specialty group, and we have plenty of patients that have been similarly ramped up on opioids and maintained over the years by well-intentioned PCP's/Rheum/Ortho-spine-NS etc. And with the 2016 CDC guidelines (and our medical group guidelines following suit) we have mess of patients on sky-high MME's that now suddenly need tapering to be in compliance. Of course, neither the patients nor the PCPs are excited about this and most of these patients would be more than glad to keep trucking along with their fentanyl patches and percocets and soma's and xanax's come hell or high water or anoxic brain injury ... medical group leadership and most of us recently graduated docs are in agreement that changes are necessary for safety -- for the health of our patients and for the health of our medical licenses and livelihoods.

Our designated pain specialists for the group do NOT prescribe meds, instead make med recommendations (ie "taper them off opioids slowly, try lyrica, cymbalta, TCA, biofeedback, PT, counseling and maybe steroid injection ...") and provide interventions/injections. They are great docs and I understand their rationale -- managing meds directly adds a mountain of office visits mandated by COT guidelines, time spent reviewing PDMP and urine tox's, busting the diverters, redirecting addicts, haggling over rx's and demonstrable functional improvement, administering PEGs and PHQ9s and ORTs and BS and once their practices are full up with COT patients it's damn near impossible to get a new consult in without waiting 4+ months. So, they don't prescribe meds, only the primary care docs do. This keeps them nimble and available for consults and procedures but there have been ample groans from the PCP sector about primary care being shackled with the opioid prescribing responsibilities. Anyway, I digress ....

During my suboxone clinic experience in training, I did see lots of pain patients (with varying degrees of opioid use disorder) do well on bupe. and in my current practice I have about 40-50 patients on suboxone that I see on a monthly basis, of which half are classic opiate dependency and the other half are pain patients. Of the pain patients, most are legit and were compliant on high dose meds x years and intolerant or skeptical of taper ... more than a few have some psych issues that make them extra challenging ...

anyway, since our pain specialists won't touch their meds, the few primary docs with suboxone experience in the group have since started acting as referral service for the tough-to-wean patients, and rotating these folks over then maintaining them and/or slow-tapering them off of bupe.

this past year, I have successfully transitioned ~20 patients from very high MED (100-400+) with good results. I tend to follow transition laid out here with butrans patch + SL bupe:

http://www.chcf.org/~/media/MEDIA LIBRARY Files/PDF/PDF B/PDF BuprenorphineFAQ.pdf

nice video here:
Webinar — Opioid Safety Coalitions: Is Buprenorphine for Pain a Safer Alternative to High-Dose or Long Term Opioid Use? - CHCF.org

and there's some nice studies suggesting this is reasonable approach ...

Conversion of chronic pain patients from full-opioid agonists to sublingual buprenorphine. - PubMed - NCBI
When opioids fail in chronic pain management: the role for buprenorphine and hospitalization. - PubMed - NCBI
Transdermal buprenorphine, opioid rotation to sublingual buprenorphine, and the avoidance of precipitated withdrawal: a review of the literature an... - PubMed - NCBI
Conversion from high-dose full-opioid agonists to sublingual buprenorphine reduces pain scores and improves quality of life for chronic pain patients. - PubMed - NCBI


it takes A LOT of hand holding. lots of phone calls and reassurance. but I've been impressed with how well many of these patients do once they are switched over. it's pretty gratifying to see these folks get off of the crazy high opioids. And bupe is much safer in the long run and gives these patients more get-up-and-go pep than the traditional opioids for pain.

in terms of the how-to, I try to get patients onto short acting opioids x 1-2 weeks prior to transition. Changing to bupe from fentanyl/oxycodone/norco/IR morphine goes smoothly, changing over from methadone is a much bumpier ride. most of my time is spent managing expectations and telling them they will feel better (eventually) on the other side of the transition.

If you are serious about trying this, I would recommend getting some hands on experience and I would advise getting your X license ... there are so many patients in the grey zone of chronic pain and OUD, and if you are prescribing off-label without an X license, you really can't be straddling these diagnoses without exposing yourself to some medicolegal risk. Off-label use should be reserved for "pure" pain patients. to complicate things, many insurances only cover suboxone and generic equivalent for opioid use disorder, and deny it for off label pain use. coverage for on-label pain formulations butrans and belbuca is hit or miss. mostly miss. If you choose not to get your X license, you'll always be prescribing off-label for pain, and you should expect most Prior Auth's to get denied. In my practice, this is part of the discussion -- if patients want to try suboxone, I ask the DSM5 questions re OUD and tell them that they *may* have mild OUD (2 items out of 11) and that this dx may be necessary to get insurer to cover meds ... if they reject the label ("I'm not an addict, I just have pain!") and/or really and truly don't have ANY aberrant behavior or evidence of OUD, then I tell them the meds may not be covered for pain by their insurance ... but we'll try and see. And if denied, patients they may choose to pay out of pocket or suck it up and do the original taper of their full mu agonist pain meds. it's really case by case. and I never force the issue, patients are always invited to: try bupe OR taper off slowly OR try to find someone else willing to rx the high MEDs outside of our group (good luck in 2017!) OR seek second/third opinion etc

anyway, Suboxone is definitely an option, but as with anything else of value, not necessarily cheap or easy. hope this helps
 
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re rotation to suboxone for pain ... I have been doing this a fair amount at my current practice with mostly good results.

I am a primary care doc with some clinical (non-fellowship) experience in using Suboxone/bup for opioid use disorder, mostly by moonlighting in suboxone clinic serving mostly heroin addicts (with some pain pill addicts and several pain patients) during family med residency. took online buppractice.org course over a weekend, got waivered. kept it active.

I'm now part of large multi-specialty group, and we have plenty of patients that have been similarly ramped up on opioids and maintained over the years by mostly well-intentioned PCP's/Rheum/Ortho-spine-NS etc. And with the 2016 CDC guidelines (and our medical group guidelines following suit) we have mess of patients on sky-high MME's that now suddenly need tapering to be in compliance. Of course, neither the patients nor the PCPs are excited about this and most of these patients would be more than glad to keep trucking along with their fentanyl patches and percocets and soma's and xanax's come hell or high water or anoxic brain injury ... medical group leadership and most of us recently graduated docs are in agreement that changes are needed for safety -- for the health of our patients and for the health of our medical licenses and livelihoods.

Our designated pain specialists for the group do NOT prescribe meds, instead make med recommendations (ie "taper them off opioids slowly, try lyrica, cymbalta, TCA, biofeedback, PT, counseling and maybe steroid injection ...") and provide interventions/injections. They are great docs and I understand their rationale -- managing meds directly adds a mountain of office visits mandated by COT guidelines, time spent review of PDMP and urine tox's, busting the diverters, redirecting addicts, haggling over rx's and demonstrable functional improvement, administering PEGs and PHQ9s and ORTs and BS and once they are full up with COT patients it's damn near impossible to get a new consult in without waiting 4+ months. So, they don't prescribe meds, only the primary care docs do. This keeps them nimble and available for consults and procedures but there have been ample groans from the PCP sector about primary care being shackled with the opioid prescribing responsibilities. Anyway, I digress ....

During my suboxone clinic experience in training, I did see lots of pain patients (with varying degrees of opioid use disorder) do well on bupe. and in my current practice I have about 40-50 patients on suboxone on a monthly basis, of which half are classic opiate dependency and the other half are pain patients. Of the pain patients, most are legit and compliant on high dose meds x years and intolerant or skeptical of taper ... more than a few have some psych issues that made them extra challenging ...

anyway, since our pain specialists won't touch their meds, the few primary docs with suboxone experience in the group have since started acting as referral service for the tough-to-wean patients, and more and more are trying these folks on suboxone.

this past year, I have successfully transitioned ~20 patients from very high MED (100-400) with good results. I tend to follow transition laid out here with butrans patch + SL bupe:

http://www.chcf.org/~/media/MEDIA LIBRARY Files/PDF/PDF B/PDF BuprenorphineFAQ.pdf

nice video here:
Webinar — Opioid Safety Coalitions: Is Buprenorphine for Pain a Safer Alternative to High-Dose or Long Term Opioid Use? - CHCF.org

and there's some nice studies suggesting this is reasonable approach ...

Conversion of chronic pain patients from full-opioid agonists to sublingual buprenorphine. - PubMed - NCBI
When opioids fail in chronic pain management: the role for buprenorphine and hospitalization. - PubMed - NCBI
Transdermal buprenorphine, opioid rotation to sublingual buprenorphine, and the avoidance of precipitated withdrawal: a review of the literature an... - PubMed - NCBI
Conversion from high-dose full-opioid agonists to sublingual buprenorphine reduces pain scores and improves quality of life for chronic pain patients. - PubMed - NCBI


it takes a lot of hand holding. lots of phone calls and reassurance. but I've been impressed with how well many of these patients do once they are switched over. it's really pretty gratifying when you see these folks get off of the crazy high opioids. And bupe much safer in the long run.

in terms of the how-to, I try to get patients onto short acting opioids x 1-2 weeks prior to transition. Changing to bupe from fentanyl/oxycodone/norco goes smoothly, changing over from methadone is a much bumpier ride. most of my time is spent managing expectations and telling them they will feel better on the other side of the transition

If you are serious about trying this, I would recommend getting some hands on experience and I would advise getting your X license ... there are so many patients in the grey zone of chronic pain and OUD, and if you are prescribing off-label without an X license, you really can't be straddling these diagnoses without exposing yourself to some medicolegal risk. Off-label use should only be reserved for "pure" pain patients. to complicate things, many insurances only cover suboxone and generic equivalent for opioid use disorder, and deny it for off label pain use. coverage for on-label pain formulations butrans and belbuca is hit or miss. mostly miss. If you choose not to get X wavier, you'll always be prescribing off-label for pain, and you should expect many PA's to get denied. In my practice, this is part of the discussion -- if patients want to try suboxone, I ask the DSM5 questions re OUD and tell them that they *may* have mild OUD (2 items out of 11) and that this dx may be necessary to get insurer to cover meds ... if they reject the label ("I'm not an addict, I just have pain!") and/or really and truly don't have ANY aberrant behavior or evidence of OUD, then I tell them the meds may not be covered for pain by their insurance ... but we'll try and see. And if denied, patients they may choose to pay out of pocket or suck it up and do the original taper of their full mu agonist pain meds. it's really case by case. and I never force the issue, patients are always invited to: try bupe OR taper off slowly OR try to find someone else willing to rx the high MEDs outside of our group (good luck in 2017!) OR seek second/third opinion etc

anyway, Suboxone is definitely an option, but as with anything else of value, not necessarily cheap or easy. hope this helps

Had a lady that came to me on high-dose opioid and benzo‘s and had risk factors. Sent to me for stim trial. And… Oh yeah… That surgeon won’t give me any more medicine anymore. Saw her one time in the office and gave her a you need to see the light talk. Offered to wean very slowly but not continue.
Got a call yesterday during clinic. She slapped on four Fentanyl patches and passed out in the garage. Husband calling from ED.
Similar story a few months ago but the lady got a DUI and had benzo’s, THC, opiates, and alcohol in her UDS in the ED.
Similar story A few months before that, but after I gave the guy the talk, he went to the clinic bathroom and overdosed on opiates and had to be bagged and narcaned.
These people are all chemical copers. They have significant psychological and psychiatric issues. Why else would you want to be in Zombieland all day every day? When you start to wean this stuff, you see everything else come to the surface, same as when alcoholics get sober.
It’s a dangerous business.
I hope nobody on this form is kidding themselves you are definitely messing up peoples lives and society at large with the opioid you are prescribing. Especially given the robust scientific evidence they have no efficacy in chronic pain.
 
Had a lady that came to me on high-dose opioid and benzo‘s and had risk factors. Sent to me for stim trial. And… Oh yeah… That surgeon won’t give me any more medicine anymore. Saw her one time in the office and gave her a you need to see the light talk. Offered to wean very slowly but not continue.
Got a call yesterday during clinic. She slapped on four Fentanyl patches and passed out in the garage. Husband calling from ED.
Similar story a few months ago but the lady got a DUI and had benzo’s, THC, opiates, and alcohol in her UDS in the ED.
Similar story A few months before that, but after I gave the guy the talk, he went to the clinic bathroom and overdosed on opiates and had to be bagged and narcaned.
These people are all chemical copers. They have significant psychological and psychiatric issues. Why else would you want to be in Zombieland all day every day? When you start to wean this stuff, you see everything else come to the surface, same as when alcoholics get sober.
It’s a dangerous business.
I hope nobody on this form is kidding themselves you are definitely messing up peoples lives and society at large with the opioid you are prescribing. Especially given the robust scientific evidence they have no efficacy in chronic pain.

You need better screening process before they can get into your office.
 
Had a lady that came to me on high-dose opioid and benzo‘s and had risk factors. Sent to me for stim trial. And… Oh yeah… That surgeon won’t give me any more medicine anymore. Saw her one time in the office and gave her a you need to see the light talk. Offered to wean very slowly but not continue.
Got a call yesterday during clinic. She slapped on four Fentanyl patches and passed out in the garage. Husband calling from ED.
Similar story a few months ago but the lady got a DUI and had benzo’s, THC, opiates, and alcohol in her UDS in the ED.
Similar story A few months before that, but after I gave the guy the talk, he went to the clinic bathroom and overdosed on opiates and had to be bagged and narcaned.
These people are all chemical copers. They have significant psychological and psychiatric issues. Why else would you want to be in Zombieland all day every day? When you start to wean this stuff, you see everything else come to the surface, same as when alcoholics get sober.
It’s a dangerous business.
I hope nobody on this form is kidding themselves you are definitely messing up peoples lives and society at large with the opioid you are prescribing. Especially given the robust scientific evidence they have no efficacy in chronic pain.
Messing up peoples lives?? Just think about how many people remain functional or return to work because they get their monthly 120 Percocet. I have been waiting 25 years to see ONE.
 
Unless of course the medications are part of a multi-modal plan that keeps them functional and full-time gainfully employed.
I am having a REALLY hard time convincing myself that the multi-modal plan without medications is not superior to the multi-modal plan with medications. I am observing that the medications are like giving a dog a treat to train him to do a trick.
 
Unless of course the medications are part of a multi-modal plan that keeps them functional and full-time gainfully employed.
That is obviously the case.
At least have the honesty and harm-reduction mentality to put them all on suboxone if you are gonna do opioids. Not tramadol/oxy/norco/fent that is euphoric and addictive. There pain will be better anyway on suboxone versus that other stuff.
upload_2017-11-14_11-11-59.png
 
That is obviously the case.
At least have the honesty and harm-reduction mentality to put them all on suboxone if you are gonna do opioids. Not tramadol/oxy/norco/fent that is euphoric and addictive. There pain will be better anyway on suboxone versus that other stuff.
View attachment 225461

Hmm, so I guess taking the prescribed medicine defines addiction or OUD?
1 drink of wine before bed= alcoholic?

Ridiculous.

You are very fashionable. No middle ground, no possible use for med chronically?
I'm waiting for the DEA to get here, I think I can get a ride in their helicopter.
 
Hmm, so I guess taking the prescribed medicine defines addiction or OUD?
1 drink of wine before bed= alcoholic?

Ridiculous.

You are very fashionable. No middle ground, no possible use for med chronically?
I'm waiting for the DEA to get here, I think I can get a ride in their helicopter.

I am not saying anything about OUD or addiction. My post had nothing to do with that.

Suboxone is a more effective analgesic for CNP than the other stuff, as that study clearly shows. Whether or not they have OUD/addiction is besides the point. The suboxone in this study was given for pain. Not for OUD/addiction.

And suboxone is not as euphoric and addictive at fent/norco/oxy/tramadol.

So it is, logically speaking, from all angles, a better option.

I do use opioids chronically. As I have detailed elsewhere. For their worst days, 15tabs a month of low dose norco or tramadol for people with widespread degenerative changes or working people with some actual pathology with no risk factors. At this dosing tolerance, immunosuppression, endocrine effects, mood changes, cognitive side effects, and the other harms of COT are greatly mitigated.

I respect you and your opinion and realize that you are doing what you feel is right for your patients.

But I disagree and do not practice in the same way.

And LOL at the helicopter.
 
Hmm, so I guess taking the prescribed medicine defines addiction or OUD?
1 drink of wine before bed= alcoholic?

Ridiculous.

You are very fashionable. No middle ground, no possible use for med chronically?
I'm waiting for the DEA to get here, I think I can get a ride in their helicopter.
Ha. Everyone knows that they come in a FIAT
 
TREATING OPIOID DEPENDENCE: TWO WAYS TO PEEL A CARROT...

Top Medications Use Different Approaches, and Are Equally Effective
Two outpatient office based approaches to treating opioid addiction are equally safe and effective, conclude findings from a comparative study lead by researchers from the departments of psychology and population health at NYU Langone School of Medicine. The study compared the opioid antagonist extended release naltrexone to the more frequently prescribed buprenorphine-naloxone, an opioid agonist. The study also confirmed differences in the agonist/antagonist alternatives, chiefly that treatment with naltrexone requires patients to detoxify first, while treatment with buprenorphine carries some potential for abuse and diversion, and is associated with withdrawal symptoms at discontinuance. Prescribing regulations also differ for the 2 treatment approaches. The research was sponsored by the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) and was published online earlier this week in The Lancet.

The study evaluated a patient cohort of 570 adults who were opioid dependent, 66% of whom were men, and 82% primarily using heroin. They were randomized to receive either monthly naltrexone following detoxification, or daily buprenorphine started as soon as possible. After 24 weeks, measures of opioid use, including relapse rate, were similar for both groups. Opioid craving was initially lower in the naltrexone group, but equivalent for both groups by 24 weeks. Implications of the “detox hurdle” were also noted, with 25% of the patients assigned to naltrexone therapy unable to receive it due to incomplete detox, vs 6% unable to start buprenorphine. Lead author Joshua Lee, MD, MSc, commented “What is now clear is how similar the outcomes are for those initiating treatment with either medication. Both medications are effective treatments for opioid use disorders versus counseling-only approaches or compared to placebo.”
 
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