Tried 3 times to get this question put into the non-trads forum - ONLINE DEGREES

[mmcintosh]

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All the more reason to go to a community college for the first 2 years and transfer out to an easy university for the last 2 years.

God, society is so stupid, I was too when I was sold that "name" matters 98% of the time it doesn't, and going to a harder school only screws you more.

i know Mr. T, this has been the game of the century that schools have played.........

 

[EdLongshanks]

You're now 39 years old, fast forward 8 years and you will be 47. Assuming that you want to start practicing ASAP after med school graduation, you would would be looking at a residency in Family Practice which is anywhere between 2-4 years of very low pay and long hours. You are now anywhere between 49 and 51 when you actually start practice. In essence you wouldn't be pursuing a long awaited dream but incurring a lifetime of debt and work.

Letting the OP know the real odds of her getting into school with a substandard academic career and accomplishments is one thing. Trying to make quality-of-life decisions for her is totally another.

I just turned 47, and I still haven't bought my walker or wheelchair yet. I know when you are in your twenties that you can't imagine how we 47-year-old geezers can even bear to look at our fatty jowls in the mirror, but, you know, we really aren't ready to give up and go to the nursing home yet.

Yes, Yes, I know, I have to give up my dream of being a quarterback with the Minnesota Vikings. But somehow I think that my mind is still clear enough that I can understand someone's ailments and try to heal them. Alzheimer's symptoms are, of course, de riguer for anyone over the age of 26, but I think I may squeeze out a year or two before they come to take me away.

My dad was 57 years old when I left home. He retired at that age. Since that time, I have gone to college, married, had a successful career, raised my kids and gone back to school to do a career change. Meanwhile, my dad has been running around the country and enjoying himself and his good health until only the last 5 years. During this time he could just as easily, and just as happily, been a physician and healer instead of sitting in RV camps playing bluegrass on a fiddle.

Maybe you believe in the '60's hippy motto of "never trust anyone over 30" but life really doesn't end at the same time as a professional football career.

 

[EdLongshanks]

you would would be looking at a residency in Family Practice which is anywhere between 2-4 years of very low pay and long hours.

Firstly, family practice isn't long hours. "On Call" and "Long Hours" aren't the same thing. I have had a job where I was on call for decades and I haven't yet gone insane from overwork. When you get a real job, you might find out that working for 45 hours and being on-call a week out of every month is how most people live.

Secondly, why consign everyone to the lowest possible pay grade. Even if half of the doctors were family practitioners (which they aren't) The odds are still 50/50 that a med school graduate will obtain another specialty.

Thirdly, I'm sure we're all teared up for the poor broke family physician who only makes $140k and has to pay malpractice of $10k and student loans of $30k, but I think most people in this country could manage to be satisfied on a 6 figure net salary.

 

[mmcintosh]

Letting the OP know the real odds of her getting into school with a substandard academic career and accomplishments is one thing. Trying to make quality-of-life decisions for her is totally another.

I just turned 47, and I still haven't bought my walker or wheelchair yet. I know when you are in your twenties that you can't imagine how we 47-year-old geezers can even bear to look at our fatty jowls in the mirror, but, you know, we really aren't ready to give up and go to the nursing home yet.

Yes, Yes, I know, I have to give up my dream of being a quarterback with the Minnesota Vikings. But somehow I think that my mind is still clear enough that I can understand someone's ailments and try to heal them. Alzheimer's symptoms are, of course, de riguer for anyone over the age of 26, but I think I may squeeze out a year or two before they come to take me away.

My dad was 57 years old when I left home. He retired at that age. Since that time, I have gone to college, married, had a successful career, raised my kids and gone back to school to do a career change. Meanwhile, my dad has been running around the country and enjoying himself and his good health until only the last 5 years. During this time he could just as easily, and just as happily, been a physician and healer instead of sitting in RV camps playing bluegrass on a fiddle.

Maybe you believe in the '60's hippy motto of "never trust anyone over 30" but life really doesn't end at the same time as a professional football career.

I LOVE THIS......I have worked in several capacities over the last 20 years and am enjoying is journey believe it or not.....in my 20's i was not as focused to say the least....my mother was a professor and has since started very sucessful corporation at the age of 50, she is now 55....life doesn't end at 30...

 

[mmcintosh]

Firstly, family practice isn't long hours. "On Call" and "Long Hours" aren't the same thing. I have had a job where I was on call for decades and I haven't yet gone insane from overwork. When you get a real job, you might find out that working for 45 hours and being on-call a week out of every month is how most people live.

Secondly, why consign everyone to the lowest possible pay grade. Even if half of the doctors were family practitioners (which they aren't) The odds are still 50/50 that a med school graduate will obtain another specialty.

Thirdly, I'm sure we're all teared up for the poor broke family physician who only makes $140k and has to pay malpractice of $10k and student loans of $30k, but I think most people in this country could manage to be satisfied on a 6 figure net salary.

i couln't have said it better....

 

[jl lin]

I usually drink my beverage in its entirety before the glass goes into the dishwasher. 😉
And to be quite honest, I couldn't care less about the "healing process," I'm looking for a career that can provide financial security and still be interesting.

I think it's great that you're pursuing your dream but I also think that you've been watching too many medical dramas on TV. In the real world your career life will be 5 to 10 years max. You're now 39 years old, fast forward 8 years and you will be 47. Assuming that you want to start practicing ASAP after med school graduation, you would would be looking at a residency in Family Practice which is anywhere between 2-4 years of very low pay and long hours. You are now anywhere between 49 and 51 when you actually start practice. In essence you wouldn't be pursuing a long awaited dream but incurring a lifetime of debt and work.

People start businesses at this age and even later. They incur a lot of debt--it takes many tens of thousands or more to start up a business, and it's take a lot of time (years) to hopefully get somewhere with it.
You can't tell a person what they should pursue based on age--anymore than you can automatically assume an 80 y.o post-op CABG pt will recover with more problems than a 40 year old post-op in recovery. I've seen this plenty of time. Co-morbidities are the bigger fact most of the time.

Personally I think those that go into medicine primarily to have a career with some sense of financial security while still finding it interesting may be the most disappointed. I've seen this with many physicians. Of course, yes, I am speaking from experience--and experience often does matter.

What some will not admit is that most of their practice will be largely based on experience more than anything else--EBP included. Life and medicine don't neatly function like well controlled experiments in a lab.


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Dear OP, I didn't read this whole thread, and if I'm going to debate, I will spend my time in another thread that is of more interest--where I can, when I have the time, show the many horrors along with benefits w/ modern medicine and its many iatrogenic causes of morbidy and mortality.

But I do encourage you to consider the OldPremeds forums website. It's generally a much more supportive and encouraging atmosphere for nontrads.

Don't get me wrong. This site has some good things; but great support for non-trads may not be one of them. The other site isn't so much about who is trying to prove what. It really is more supportive w/o all the arguing, discouraging putdowns, ageism, and such.

Do your research and go where you are led.




About online learning, it's pretty standard nowadays, even with traditional on-campus classes. How people learn is what is important. I will say, however, it will suit you best to ensure that you take your pre-req sciences where you have a lab on campus.


Really many courses have hybrid components, at the very least. Many online courses with classes can be tough, b/c they specifically make them database-research and writing intensive--more along the lines of a lot of graduate courses--and there are rubrics, but the evaluation of the writing/research projects can be somewhat subjective--though I think the better programs have more objective-based guidelines. If you find a program that is within an accredited university that has reputable programs for online learning, and you take your pre-reqs with labs on campus as I said, AND then you score well on the MCAT and also generally have a sound and interesting application, you can get into medical school. Of course that process is a whole other bag.

Also, in understanding learning, anything we can learn that is relevant to what we will be studying in medical school can only help us, for concepts build on others--and we still pretty much learn line upon line, precept upon precept.

Undergrad A&P is not as intensive as MS gross anatomy, and it's not meant to be. You're given more to learn in terms of structure and function in med school-GA. But whatever you learn now can only help you later, even if it is incredibly overwheming later.

Everytime we are exposed to princples and concepts, it means we have the opportunity to make the connections stronger. It's not like if you take A&P I and II, you'll have to "unlearn" it. You will simply learn anatomy iin a much greater breadth and depth in medical school.

People leave gross anatomy labs dreaming about what they have been exposed to all day. I never really dreamed about what I was exposed to in A&P I or II, at least not that I can recall. But GA is a more intense, intimate, and higher quality grade of learning about the structure and function of the human body. Some folks do have trouble with A&P b/c they didn't attend the labs or missed lab exams, or b/c there was a lot of memorization and they didn't put the time into it.

Personally I enjoyed the physiology more than learning the anatomy; b/c I like to understand how things work. I fully expect gross anatomy to be wild in terms of memorization and conceptualizing physiological processes. Some people don't even seen the point of physicians-to-be learning gross anatomy at this level. It's very intense, but there's no reason for it not to be a pre-requisite of learning for the medical student/physician.

 

[jl lin]

Firstly, family practice isn't long hours. "On Call" and "Long Hours" aren't the same thing. I have had a job where I was on call for decades and I haven't yet gone insane from overwork. When you get a real job, you might find out that working for 45 hours and being on-call a week out of every month is how most people live.

Secondly, why consign everyone to the lowest possible pay grade. Even if half of the doctors were family practitioners (which they aren't) The odds are still 50/50 that a med school graduate will obtain another specialty.

Thirdly, I'm sure we're all teared up for the poor broke family physician who only makes $140k and has to pay malpractice of $10k and student loans of $30k, but I think most people in this country could manage to be satisfied on a 6 figure net salary.

Right. My huband is in business. He works no less than 12 hours per day many days, and he gets up at 4am. Business can be quite brutal. I'm amazed that more people don't really know this. And on top of that, he takes a lot of work home.

What the FM physician makes will depend on experience and different things. The potential to make more than that is definitely there. Yes, you may have to relocate. How is this different for other types of work and various positions? People in all fields know that they will often have to go where the jobs are. If you are to grow your practice, it behooves you to be business savvy as well.



But I still say if people go into this field primarily b/c they think they will have some safe income, they will end up miserable. There's a lot more to it than that, and you will invest a lot of time and energy and money and be unsatisfied.

Personally I don't think it's a journey one should take with some impatient expectation of getting to some great lifestyle on the other side. The intense and demanding journey is part of the whole, and if you can't get into that, you are missing out on a huge piece of the whole.

Unless I'm going really far away, I prefer to travel by car rather than fly, b/c I want to experience the journey along the way. I want to see and experience different things and meet different people. Sometimes you just have to fly. But when you have to opportunity to take a long journey and grow from the experience, you should really get into it and not seek to just rush through it.

This is part of why I like J.R.R. Tokien's most famous works: The Hobit & the trilogy, The Lord of the Rings. Much of what is gained is from the journeys, quests, and various components of the missions--they are all independently important and still vitally interconnected.

Why is everyone is such a hurry to get done with the processes of things? How can you "suck the marrow out of life" if you live controlled by such thinking?

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

so glad this kind of cheap discouragement doesn't affect me and i hope others won't be bothered when they read this nonesense. there is a young man that is 58 years old that is an MS2 in a reputable school in NYC. I just happened to hear about him on a visit to the school. he was a TRUCK DRIVER for many years b4 persuing his dream. Believe it or not youth is not always valued over a lifetime of experiences...............just incase you haven't heard debt is apart of any educational experience. Shouldn't you know that by now.....

There is a difference between "cheap discouragement" and thinking about one's age and debt from school. $250k+ is harder to pay off when you have fewer years to practice medicine. I am not saying that you shouldn't do what you want to do, but you need to think about your specifics and how this will affect you, your future, and your family. At med school interviews, these are questions you might be asked, so you need to have well thought out responses, rather than phrases in bold. You are right to think that maturity is a good trait, but it doesn't trump everything else.

 

[anonymousername]

so glad this kind of cheap discouragement doesn't affect me and i hope others won't be bothered when they read this nonesense.

Honestly, I'm being realistic.

there is a young man that is 58 years old that is an MS2 in a reputable school in NYC. I just happened to hear about him on a visit to the school. he was a TRUCK DRIVER for many years b4 persuing his dream.

That's pretty awesome. However, as "happy-go-lucky" as we want to be about it...58 is not very young.

Believe it or not youth is not always valued over a lifetime of experiences...............

I agree life experience is more important than youth.

just incase you haven't heard debt is apart of any educational experience. Shouldn't you know that by now.....

Yes, that is why I brought the topic up.

Letting the OP know the real odds of her getting into school with a substandard academic career and accomplishments is one thing. Trying to make quality-of-life decisions for her is totally another.

That wasn't my intent, I am functioning under the assumption that the OP can make her own decisions regardless of what an online forum says. What I am saying is that, realistically and financially, a career in medicine is not the smartest thing one can do to "help people." The OP can read my post, interpret it however she wants, and move on.

I just turned 47, and I still haven't bought my walker or wheelchair yet. I know when you are in your twenties that you can't imagine how we 47-year-old geezers can even bear to look at our fatty jowls in the mirror, but, you know, we really aren't ready to give up and go to the nursing home yet.

To be quite honest, 47 isn't really that old. My image of the average 47 yo is of someone who has the time, resources, and energy to enjoy the finer things that life has to offer. Not stuck in a biochem book, taking crap from 35 year old attendings and 30 year old residents.

My dad was 57 years old when I left home. He retired at that age. Since that time, I have gone to college, married, had a successful career, raised my kids and gone back to school to do a career change. Meanwhile, my dad has been running around the country and enjoying himself and his good health until only the last 5 years. During this time he could just as easily, and just as happily, been a physician and healer instead of sitting in RV camps playing bluegrass on a fiddle.

I'm not quite sure if you have had the chance to shadow a physician or "healer" but I have. It's not as glamorous as one would think. Each physician I've shadowed (between the ages of 37 and 65) is looking forward to one of two things things in life - retirement or vacation. They are sick of the job and I'm certain that all of them would be willing to trade spots with your father and be "running around the country and enjoying themselves." Imagine how awful I felt watching this 60 year old cardiothoracic surgeon waking me up at 3:00 am to do an aortic dissection that he couldn't give less of a **** about.

Maybe you believe in the '60's hippy motto of "never trust anyone over 30" but life really doesn't end at the same time as a professional football career.

I'm not sure why you wrote this exactly. When did I indicate that I don't trust anyone over 30?

Firstly, family practice isn't long hours. "On Call" and "Long Hours" aren't the same thing. I have had a job where I was on call for decades and I haven't yet gone insane from overwork. When you get a real job, you might find out that working for 45 hours and being on-call a week out of every month is how most people live.

As much as I'm sure that being on call for "decades" is tough (what do you do exactly?) I'm sure that it is nothing compared to residency. Working 80 hr/wk for less money than the kid at taco bell makes per hr. If a med student decides to not opt for the least competitive specialty (FP) and go into IM, surg, or something more advanced, the work will be much more than how "most people live." I have a job too, I pay for my school while being a full time student. It's not hard.

Secondly, why consign everyone to the lowest possible pay grade. Even if half of the doctors were family practitioners (which they aren't) The odds are still 50/50 that a med school graduate will obtain another specialty.

A source would be nice.

Thirdly, I'm sure we're all teared up for the poor broke family physician who only makes $140k and has to pay malpractice of $10k and student loans of $30k, but I think most people in this country could manage to be satisfied on a 6 figure net salary.

People start businesses at this age and even later. They incur a lot of debt--it takes many tens of thousands or more to start up a business, and it's take a lot of time (years) to hopefully get somewhere with it.
You can't tell a person what they should pursue based on age--anymore than you can automatically assume an 80 y.o post-op CABG pt will recover with more problems than a 40 year old post-op in recovery. I've seen this plenty of time. Co-morbidities are the bigger fact most of the time.

This doesn't even make any sense. You are comparing a CABG to a career decision by the link of co-morbidity?
Again, when did I tell the OP to do anything, she is an adult and can make up her own mind. I expressed my views and she can interpret them however she wants, it doesn't effect me in the least if she agrees or disagrees with them.

Personally I think those that go into medicine primarily to have a career with some sense of financial security while still finding it interesting may be the most disappointed. I've seen this with many physicians. Of course, yes, I am speaking from experience--and experience often does matter.

As a nurse, I'm sure you did see a lot of physicians who were unhappy with their career choice. Exactly what aspects of medicine made them disappointed? were more physicians satisfied w/ their careers than unsatisfied? what specialty (if you had interaction with many specialties) did you feel were the happiest? why are you choosing to go into medicine now?

What some will not admit is that most of their practice will be largely based on experience more than anything else--EBP included. Life and medicine don't neatly function like well controlled experiments in a lab.

This is true and that is why I would trust a veteran nurse w/ 30+ years of work experience more than the intern. But I would trust a new attending or senior resident more than a nurse with any amount of experience because they have the foundation of science and understanding as well as the necessary experience.


In the end OP, I admire you for going for it. You are right that experience is valuable and I think that your "won't take 'no' for an answer" attitude is great. If you want to go to med school and think it's your "calling," go to med school and don't listen to me or anyone else who says that it's not really a smart option.
That said, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't want my 50's and 60's stuck in a hospital on weekends and holidays while being the lowest lowest person on the totem poll. But hey, you disagree and that's fine with me.

 

[jl lin]

There is a difference between "cheap discouragement" and thinking about one's age and debt from school. $250k+ is harder to pay off when you have fewer years to practice medicine. I am not saying that you shouldn't do what you want to do, but you need to think about your specifics and how this will affect you, your future, and your family. At med school interviews, these are questions you might be asked, so you need to have well thought out responses, rather than phrases in bold. You are right to think that maturity is a good trait, but it doesn't trump everything else.

A person that engages in strong wellness practices and who is in generally good health can practice beyond 70's in various areas of medicine. I know quite a number that have and still do.

This ageism is simply another form of ingrained bigotry. And it's part of a disposable society mentality.

Listen, many are taking better care of themselves and are in great condition, many times even better health than a number of 30, 40, or 50 year olds. I can't believe how people still allow themselves to get hung up on this. It's about the individual person, not the externals.

Don't get me wrong hobbes. I do "see" the other things you are saying and agree; but there is a general mentality that is going around, and it's simply false. Life is far from over after 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, or 70+.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

This ageism is simply another form of ingrained biggotry.

Agreed. But you have to think about that fact that it does exist and people on an ADCOM will want to make sure the OP knows why he wants to go into medicine.


Similarly, the debate over online colleges vs. community college vs. traditional college is somewhat about class. Just because there shouln't be discrimination or classist thoughts about online courses or community colleges, there is classism, and one needs to think about how that affects one's life.

 

[jl lin]

This doesn't even make any sense. You are comparing a CABG to a career decision by the link of co-morbidity?.

It speaks for itself when you understand that it's the individual that matters, not the age.

Plenty of people start businesses into middle age and beyond as well.
They borrow a lot of money and make it work.

Age alone should NOT be a factor, period.

As a nurse, I'm sure you did see a lot of physicians who were unhappy with their career choice. Exactly what aspects of medicine made them disappointed? were more physicians satisfied w/ their careers than unsatisfied? what specialty (if you had interaction with many specialties) did you feel were the happiest? why are you choosing to go into medicine now?

It's NOT the specialty--again, as in comparing things with mere superficiality--such as age--it depends on the individual. There are pluses and minuses to all areas. It's a demanding and even draining profession, bottom line.

This is true and that is why I would trust a veteran nurse w/ 30+ years of work experience more than the intern. But I would trust a new attending or senior resident more than a nurse with any amount of experience because they have the foundation of science and understanding as well as the necessary experience.

What does this have to do with what we are discussing? And again, it still would depend on the individual. What you trust them over will depend on the individual. A resident may not have seen the big picture on the whole as say some nurse w/ 30 years experience--but again, it depends on many things.

I will say that many physicians in residency seem on the disgruntled side of things, but then again, residency is often a pain in the butt with little immediate returns for people. Happiness and satisfaction with what a person is doing has to do with them internally. Some people see their talent and value as physicians in helping people. Other people jump through the hoops, and it's a lot harder with a lot less immediate pay off than what they thought it would be. No one is stroking your ego. No one is singing your praises. You aren't rolling in money, and you are working your azz off with a lot of stresses in human dynamics as well. It's a role of stewardship of sorts, period. If you are not happy as a steward prior to becoming a physician, the "props" generally will not make you happy after you become one.

In the end OP, I admire you for going for it. You are right that experience is valuable and I think that your "won't take 'no' for an answer" attitude is great. If you want to go to med school and think it's your "calling," go to med school and don't listen to me or anyone else who says that it's not really a smart option.

-->That said, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't want my 50's and 60's stuck in a hospital on weekends and holidays while being the lowest lowest person on the totem poll. But hey, you disagree and that's fine with me.

Again, "low on the totem poll?" It's a role of stewardship, period. Those that get that are happier in being physicians. Those that want to climb the ladder and want to be top dog may or may not be temporarily happy, but they will not be fulfilled in the role as physician. Tragically people that go into any field with this mentality and level of insecurity, they make it incredibly tough on all those that are dedicated to being the best stewards to others in their respective roles.

Sadly there is no shortage of miserable, insecure people in the world. People need to get things together on the inside first and then work through external things. It's important to know why we may feel driven to what we want or think we want to do--what is truly the basis for it.

It's just as insane to spend decades preparing for and working in a career of physician-stewardship if you don't see the greater value in this kind work and lifetime commitment--just as it may be to go into 100's of thousands of dollars debt to become a physician-steward as an older applicant. In fact, the former is much more insane than the latter.

If the latter finds great fulfillment in this work, it's tantamount to simply taking on another mortage--and many people do this in midlife.
The former, however, may feel a greater sense of disastisfaction for a long period of time. Since they made this huge investment of money, time, and energy, and many sacrifices, they may end up feeling stuck in it and quite resentful.

Also, shadowing is fine, but it only gives people the tiniest perspective into the field. I feel it's better to actually work tons of hours in and around it and get more of a bird's eyeview to get a more honest perspective on things.

 

[jl lin]

Agreed. But you have to think about that fact that it does exist and people on an ADCOM will want to make sure the OP knows why he wants to go into medicine.


Similarly, the debate over online colleges vs. community college vs. traditional college is somewhat about class. Just because there shouln't be discrimination or classist thoughts about online courses or community colleges, there is classism, and one needs to think about how that affects one's life.

True, but thinking about it is one thing. Being dissuaded by it is another. To me it is just a test of commitment.

 

[mmcintosh]

True, but thinking about it is one thing. Being dissuaded by it is another. To me it is just a test of commitment.

jl lin
i appreciate your seasoned contribution to this thread. what has happened here is a simple question over online schools vs. on-campus degrees and acceptance to med school.

this has exposed the same ole pompous rhetoric that has existed in the minds of many people that feel elite and therefore have shifted this simple question into a debate over class and what they deem acceptable.

when they were not successful at dissuading me, it then shifted into a debate over age and how my age is inappropriate to accomplish my own goal of becoming a physician.

I am not in the least discouraged because I understand the inability of people in their 20's to see alternative routes. I too suffered from tunnel vision in my 20's. After a 20 year span of adversity and very valuable lessons, i would not exchange the growth that I have gained for anything. Thanks again for your in depth insight of several things.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

...what has happened here is a simple question over online schools vs. on-campus degrees and acceptance to med school.

this has exposed the same ole pompous rhetoric that has existed in the minds of many people that feel elite and therefore have shifted this simple question into a debate over class and what they deem acceptable.

when they were not successful at dissuading me, it then shifted into a debate over age and how my age is inappropriate to accomplish my own goal of becoming a physician.

No one is saying you shouldn't go into medicine. We are saying that you will have extra barriers in your path that a traditional applicant wouldn't have. Furthermore, the consensus is that having an online degree would add an additional barrier that you could entirely avoid.

Good luck. Most people on this thread are encouraging you, but you are angering them by asking for advice then simply dismissing it.

I brought up classism because that seems to be underlying part of the debate. Don't confuse people who are trying to help you with people you actually need to get mad at.

 

[jl lin]

No one is saying you shouldn't go into medicine. We are saying that you will have extra barriers in your path that a traditional applicant wouldn't have. Furthermore, the consensus is that having an online degree would add an additional barrier that you could entirely avoid.

Good luck. Most people on this thread are encouraging you, but you are angering them by asking for advice then simply dismissing it.

I brought up classism because that seems to be underlying part of the debate. Don't confuse people who are trying to help you with people you actually need to get mad at.

Admittedly I haven't read through the whole thread, so I don't know if I could say anyone is dismissing anything.

In principle what I reject is the notion that another person can "make" someone else mad. Yes someone can influence another person, but the truth is that the other person has to take full responsibility for his or her feelings. So unless I am completely insane, no one can make me angry unless I choose to be angry. And if I choose to be so powerfully controlled by another person, I must realize that it is my issue and my responsibility. I am responsible for my feelings. This allows each person a balanced level of freedom and the necessary responsibility that comes with it.

At the same time, it's more productive for me to try to be open to what others are trying to say without becoming negative or demonstrating things that may influence others in feeling alienated.

Also many times it is more of an issue of seeking clarification where there may be possible confusion, which often is the case in human communications.

Whatever the case, what seems clear is that freedom can never be severed from responsibility.

 

[ChairmanMao]

jl lin
i appreciate your seasoned contribution to this thread. what has happened here is a simple question over online schools vs. on-campus degrees and acceptance to med school.

this has exposed the same ole pompous rhetoric that has existed in the minds of many people that feel elite and therefore have shifted this simple question into a debate over class and what they deem acceptable.

when they were not successful at dissuading me, it then shifted into a debate over age and how my age is inappropriate to accomplish my own goal of becoming a physician.

I am not in the least discouraged because I understand the inability of people in their 20's to see alternative routes. I too suffered from tunnel vision in my 20's. After a 20 year span of adversity and very valuable lessons, i would not exchange the growth that I have gained for anything. Thanks again for your in depth insight of several things.

This is America, why don't you call up the medical schools yourself and ask them if you can take your prequisite classes online rather than listen to what some anonymous posters on here say? The more you learn to do things on your own, the better off you'll be.

 

[sixthangel9716]

happy wife, how did your husband managed to work full-time, spend time with his family, volunteer, and complete nearly 40 credits in one semester??? Did you mean 40 credits per semester or per year? Please share this experience. btw there is a doctor in some state named w.g watson who is 100 years old and is still practicing medicine.

 

[Happy Wife]

happy wife, how did your husband managed to work full-time, spend time with his family, volunteer, and complete nearly 40 credits in one semester??? Did you mean 40 credits per semester or per year? Please share this experience. btw there is a doctor in some state named w.g watson who is 100 years old and is still practicing medicine.

I saw that video on CNN earlier.

One semester, he took exams for credit almost every week. He would borrow study books, read through them at night, then take the tests. He actually probably did more than 40 credit hours that semester. He also took the DLPT in a few different languages. Some colleges offer up to 36 language credits per qualifying DLPT score. That's where he got most all of the upper division credit hours for his degree. This last summer, he took Organic 1, Organic 2, the labs, and 3 self-paced online course (21 credit hours in about 2 months).

 

[EdLongshanks]

To be quite honest, 47 isn't really that old. My image of the average 47 yo is of someone who has the time, resources, and energy to enjoy the finer things that life has to offer. Not stuck in a biochem book, taking crap from 35 year old attendings and 30 year old residents.
...
As much as I'm sure that being on call for "decades" is tough (what do you do exactly?)

I'm a software engineer. I work for a company that writes medical insurance software.

I think that you suffer from the common delusion that leisure = happiness. You are right that at 47 I have the freedom to do whatever I wish. I can live anywhere I want to live. My job is geographic independent. I can work in any environment that I wish. I can wear pajamas all day if I want to. I have normal hours and spend a lot of time on-call, but that still leaves lots of time and sufficient money to do whatever I wish, and what I wish is to do is use that time for others. I go to bed each night happy when I know that if God called me to account for my day, I could account for it without shame.

I could not live the life that my father chose after his retirement. The very thought fills me with horror. He was a banker. In the 30 years since he retired he could have done the account books for a missionary. He could have raised money for starving children. He could have joined a struggling church and taught interesting classes that brought in members.

Everyone has to decide for themselves, but for me, to paraphrase Socrates, the selfish life is not worth living.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Firstly, family practice isn't long hours. "On Call" and "Long Hours" aren't the same thing.

First FP hours are getting longer and longer because of reimbursement/insurance issues. About 10 years ago, they worked about 53 hours a week. FYI

Thirdly, I'm sure we're all teared up for the poor broke family physician who only makes $140k and has to pay malpractice of $10k and student loans of $30k, but I think most people in this country could manage to be satisfied on a 6 figure net salary.

Actually the average medical school debt is $156,000 which takes into account 13% that have 0 loans (ie parents paid for it, or ROTC). Doing the math, those who take out loans need an average of $175K at 6.8% interest.
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abo...on/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml


http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
According to the above calculator, it is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $215,430.00 to be able to afford to repay $156k (paying 10% of gross income). That's much higher than an FP's salary

You can't tell a person what they should pursue based on age--anymore than you can automatically assume an 80 y.o post-op CABG pt will recover with more problems than a 40 year old post-op in recovery. I've seen this plenty of time. Co-morbidities are the bigger fact most of the time.

Ummm... age > 70 is an independent risk factor for cardiac death post-op. So yeah, on average that 80 year old is going to have a lot more problems. Your metaphor is like saying a Honda Accord could out race a porsche. Yeah it could happen, but my money every time is going to be on the Porsche.

This is America, why don't you call up the medical schools yourself and ask them if you can take your prequisite classes online rather than listen to what some anonymous posters on here say? The more you learn to do things on your own, the better off you'll be.

GREAT advice!




Now for the my input related to the OP's question:
I first would recommend against online courses just because many (?most) schools will not feel that they are equivalent to 4yr university classes. You are competing with literally thousands of applicants with very competitive applications so pigeon-holing yourself so early is a bad idea. Many schools specifically say that they expect your pre-recs to be done in a 4 year university (mine included).

Another thing to consider is your undergraduate GPA. Yes, annoyingly it still matters, even years later. If your GPA was poor, you are going to need to prove you can handle hard courses. Taking them at a CC or online will not do this nearly as well as a 4yr university. Schools will always wonder if you got good grades because the classes were easy.

If you do choose to take your courses online, take them from a reputable place.

Call the programs, especially your state schools and talk with the dean of admissions. Ask them if they will accept online pre-recs and specifically if they look down on online courses compared to 4 yr courses. That should lead you better than this board can.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Actually the average medical school debt is $156,000 which takes into account 13% that have 0 loans (ie parents paid for it, or ROTC). Doing the math, those who take out loans need an average of $175K at 6.8% interest. .

I should clarify. I mean the family practitioner may be paying $30k per year in loan payments. This is 20% of his income above 200% of poverty level, which is what student loans are capped at. So a family practitioner (in my state) is paying $15k in insurance, paying student loan payments of $30k / year and making $145. He won't become a millionaire anytime soo, but I'm not tearing up for him.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

First FP hours are getting longer and longer because of reimbursement/insurance issues. About 10 years ago, they worked about 53 hours a week. FYI

This article actually says differently...

http://www.thetowntalk.com/article/20100302/LIFESTYLE/3020329

Used to work 55 hours 14 years ago, changed to 51 hours 2 years ago.

 

[dotdash]

JAMA says doctors overall are working fewer hours, but admits that that doesn't apply across the board to all specialties. Family docs may well be working more.

 

[jl lin]

Ummm... age > 70 is an independent risk factor for cardiac death post-op. So yeah, on average that 80 year old is going to have a lot more problems. Your metaphor is like saying a Honda Accord could out race a porsche. Yeah it could happen, but my money every time is going to be on the Porsche.

Sir or maam or whatever, I don't know how many direct post-op open heart patients you have recovered from the OR, but I know how many I have. I'm well past the hundreds mark on that.

I completely reject the notion that age in and of itself is or should be a risk factor necessarily. There are people that take wellness very seriously and have taken care of themselves for many years or simply may have superior genes. Co-morbidities d/t uncontrolled or maginally controlled DM or other disease processes, etc ARE the bigger factors. I have recovered easily people in their 70's and even 80's that faired much better than many that are younger that didn't care about sound wellness practices or that had co-morbidiities and other risk factors.

There's a big difference between a frailer person, at any age, over one that runs on the beach regularly, eats right, doesn't smoke or drink in excess or that abuses drugs or has an addiction problem, and/or someone that has no big diseases in their family.

Valve replacements can be tricky to recover post-operatively. I've had those that were older recover quite well--some juggling of drips and vol replacement but nothing too crazy. You know, they didn't have any significant co-morbidities, and they actually decided to take care of themselves as compared with plenty of other pts.

I've also recovered kids with all kinds of whacky cardiac and pulmonary anatomies. The kids that had more co-morbid factors were unquestionably more complicated and had more difficulty during recovery and thereafter than those that had less.

It is wrong thinking that has led to the blanklet belief that age alone is some huge factor. Mostly it's based on generalizations and bias. You need to appreciate that a good percentage of the baby boomers have educated themselves and pursue healthier lifestyles and wellness practices than their parents or grandparents.

OTOH there are still a heck of a lot of younger people (in the generation "Y" and "X" categories) that abuse drugs and ETOH, smoke, eat garbage all the time, expose themselves to all kinds of STD (some of whom don't or won't even know they have them until later on or until they decide they want children--and then these STDs rear their ugly heads.) They don't sleep right, and a fair number of them never exercise and are overweight--or are on the brink of obesity or are plain morbidly obese. Type II DM for obese kids is on the rise big time, and really it's going to become quite a nightmare for many practitioners as they kids get older!!!


I will give you this. Age alone is much more of a factor for females in terms of optimal reproduction. Good wellness practices definitely helps, but there is a point where the window for optimal fertility and such begins to close significantly. That being said, I had trouble with this in my early 20's b/c of a a condition I didn't know I had. So in my 20's and up I was considered high risk B/C of the condition, but this was definitely NOT b/c of my age!



You are a med student for crying out loud. Start looking at patients as individuals if you want to be the best physician you can be. Yes EBM can be helpful, and you can't always waste unnecessary time looking for zebras, so generalities weigh into it somewhat. But just remember your patient is an individual. If you see stripes in a blur and the pt isn't improving, yes, then you have to start thinking zebras. But if you look at each patient as an individual as well and keep things in balance, you will have a more openminded approach and will be a better physician.

Although you were merely making a point with the car analogy, he, she, they is/are not cars. We do underestimate the individuality of each patient many times, and the patient loses out b/c of it.

Also, there is a big difference between a Porche that has been well-maintained than one that hasn't been.Not everything has to be new to be good or even great. I can say this and I've had my share of new cars--some worthy of their "newness" and others NOT.

 

[MomOf3Doc2b]

If you're alluding to my attempt to discourage you from pursuing an online degree, I just want to clarify that I was *not* discouraging you from pursuing medicine in general. In fact, my intention was to help you be *more* competitive for the med school admissions process, not less. At this point, I have gone through the entire med school app process as a nontrad applicant myself; I have served as a member of the admissions committee at my med school for the past three years; and I have counseled dozens of nontrad applicants on how to improve their apps for med school, including many SDN members. Based on my personal and professional experiences, I would be doing you a major disservice by encouraging you to do something like getting an online degree, when I know for a fact that having an online degree would decrease your competitiveness for medical school admissions.

As I explained previously, medicine is a conservative profession. While there is certainly more acceptance of older applicants and students now than there ever has been before, there is *not* a general acceptance of online degrees by medical school adcoms. Online learning may be the wave of the future, but at present, med school adcoms are still standing on the beach watching that wave go by. Is it possible to be accepted with an online degree? Maybe, if the rest of your app is stellar. But again, you would be making the already difficult road to med school even more difficult by not going the tried-and-true route. As anyone who has already gone through the app process can tell you, it's hard enough to get into medical school even when you do everything exactly by the book. Why would you want to create extra obstacles for yourself that are completely avoidable?

I'm glad you decided on attending a state school for your prereqs rather than trying to do them online. Again, it's a good decision in terms of maximally strengthening your competitiveness as an applicant, especially if you do well in these classes (3.8+). Don't forget that you must also get some sort of clinical experience if you haven't done so already (shadowing, volunteering etc. in a medical setting).

Hope this clarifies where I'm coming from, and I wish you the best of luck. 🙂

I think that your words were not mistaken and that you in fact did allude to an online degree as being inferior. Let's not mince words here. Your journey or road to higher education should not be taken lightly nor should it be influnenced by threats of a "conservative profession" For some of us, an Online Degree Program cannot be avoided and therefore, the only reality. And you're wrong, Medical Schools have caught up with this so called "inferior" process. I'm 46, Black and a highschool dropout. I have a degree from The Pennsylvania State University Online Degree Program (class of 2006). All of my science completed at a community college. Applied to 12 schools, received interviews from 8 and accepted to 5. Did I mention that I am 46, Black and a high school dropout? I think that your counseling needs improvement or at the very least, an adjustment. Dreams are often deferred by negative people or some know it alls.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I'm actually going to have to agree with QofQ here. Most admissions folks see online degrees as inferior... I have been told by admissions directors not to even take the one class I was thinking of via online learning since it would hurt my chances since it's a pre-req. This was specifically by the admissions director at a UC so maybe it's different other places (I doubt it though).

I think the very reason online classes worked for you is because you were a high school dropout, black and 40+. You had another story to tell aside from your academics. For the majority of us, online classes won't make the cut (especially at the more competitive schools). Also, you took your pre-reqs at a community college (not online).

On a side note, if you are headed to medical school to start an M.D or D.O. program, why are you listed as a pre-podiatry? If you were referencing online courses for pre-pod, then I actually have no knowledge on the subject.

I think that your words were not mistaken and that you in fact did allude to an online degree as being inferior. Let's not mince words here. Your journey or road to higher education should not be taken lightly nor should it be influnenced by threats of a "conservative profession" For some of us, an Online Degree Program cannot be avoided and therefore, the only reality. And you're wrong, Medical Schools have caught up with this so called "inferior" process. I'm 46, Black and a highschool dropout. I have a degree from The Pennsylvania State University Online Degree Program (class of 2006). All of my science completed at a community college. Applied to 12 schools, received interviews from 8 and accepted to 5. Did I mention that I am 46, Black and a high school dropout? I think that your counseling needs improvement or at the very least, an adjustment. Dreams are often deferred by negative people or some know it alls.

 

[mmcintosh]

I think that your words were not mistaken and that you in fact did allude to an online degree as being inferior. Let's not mince words here. Your journey or road to higher education should not be taken lightly nor should it be influnenced by threats of a "conservative profession" For some of us, an Online Degree Program cannot be avoided and therefore, the only reality. And you're wrong, Medical Schools have caught up with this so called "inferior" process. I'm 46, Black and a highschool dropout. I have a degree from The Pennsylvania State University Online Degree Program (class of 2006). All of my science completed at a community college. Applied to 12 schools, received interviews from 8 and accepted to 5. Did I mention that I am 46, Black and a high school dropout? I think that your counseling needs improvement or at the very least, an adjustment. Dreams are often deferred by negative people or some know it alls.

BRAVO WELL SAID....YOU ARE TRULLY A SUCCESS STORY WHO DARED TO PROVE THE ODDS WRONG....it is so important to know without a shadow of a doubt that you are very capable. unfortunately, the opposition on SDN sometimes comes from the people that call them selves non-traditional. I SALUTE YOU AND YOUR SUCCESSES...........LET NO ONE DISCOURAGE YOU.

 

[coralteeth]

so sad that there is such an attitude of negativity on this site.... are you sure that you want to be a doctor to help the "healing process". is the glass half empty all the time?
i won't be defeated in my effort to make real inspriation a sustainable reality on this site. there is still time to turn it around people........

OP, r u ok? i'm also a nontrad and got accepted to dental school the old-fashioned way--by clawing my way thru post-bacc at a brick and mortar university.

OP, you are so dramatic. take a deep breath and relax! no one is attacking you!

with so many friends in med school with online degrees, you have much better personal references from which to draw, so why the need to ask strangers who spew nothing but negativity? GL!

 

[familyaerospace]

My graduate degree was from the University of North Dakota and it was a distance program. I became very close with my professors. Three of them are writing for me.

 

[MomOf3Doc2b]

I'm actually going to have to agree with QofQ here. Most admissions folks see online degrees as inferior... I have been told by admissions directors not to even take the one class I was thinking of via online learning since it would hurt my chances since it's a pre-req. This was specifically by the admissions director at a UC so maybe it's different other places (I doubt it though).

I think the very reason online classes worked for you is because you were a high school dropout, black and 40+. You had another story to tell aside from your academics. For the majority of us, online classes won't make the cut (especially at the more competitive schools). Also, you took your pre-reqs at a community college (not online).

On a side note, if you are headed to medical school to start an M.D or D.O. program, why are you listed as a pre-podiatry? If you were referencing online courses for pre-pod, then I actually have no knowledge on the subject.

Re: Your side note, I became a member of this board in 2008. I didn't even realize that my status listed me as pre-pod. I'm leaving it, sorry.

 

[DanielSTK]

always a risk...

 

[mmcintosh]

WHATV DOES ALWAYS A RISK MEAN............always a risk for what

 

[mmcintosh]

my graduate degree was from the university of north dakota and it was a distance program. I became very close with my professors. Three of them are writing for me.

awesome.......

 

[QofQuimica]

I think that your words were not mistaken and that you in fact did allude to an online degree as being inferior. Let's not mince words here. Your journey or road to higher education should not be taken lightly nor should it be influnenced by threats of a "conservative profession" For some of us, an Online Degree Program cannot be avoided and therefore, the only reality. And you're wrong, Medical Schools have caught up with this so called "inferior" process. I'm 46, Black and a highschool dropout. I have a degree from The Pennsylvania State University Online Degree Program (class of 2006). All of my science completed at a community college. Applied to 12 schools, received interviews from 8 and accepted to 5. Did I mention that I am 46, Black and a high school dropout? I think that your counseling needs improvement or at the very least, an adjustment. Dreams are often deferred by negative people or some know it alls.

On the contrary, I made no judgment whatsoever about the value of an online degree in terms of how good the education itself is. The point of my post is that for the purpose of getting into medical school, an online degree can unnecessarily make the process of getting accepted more complicated and difficult. I stand by that statement: I would not advise anyone to preferentially obtain an online degree, *especially* if they're trying to make up for previous poor grades.

You obviously beat the odds, which I think is terrific and even inspiring. But the fact that you did so does not necessarily mean that most other people can also do so. The closest analogy I can think of offhand would be like if I claimed that because I got into medical school with P/F grades for all of my prereqs, everyone else should be able to do that too. However, I would not recommend that other people take their prereqs P/F instead of taking them for grades. In my case, I was able to overcome whatever disadvantage I had due to my unusual academic record because of other strengths like my grad school grades, MCAT score, having good evals, etc.

I also am a little tired of people impugning my motives just because they disagree with me. Regardless of the fact that I would not advise other people to take your path (or mine, for that matter), that does *not* equate with judgmentalism about another person's personal or educational worth, or a vindictive desire on my part to hurt the ability of other nontrads to get into medical school. As I said previously, my intentions are actually to *help* other nontraditional students get into medical school, and I truly believe in the advice I am giving. It is the same advice that I would give to myself if I were in the shoes of a current premed.

Those of you who disagree with me are free to disregard my advice and go about getting into medical school your own way. I will wish you well and hope for your success regardless. In addition, for what my advice costs you, you can't exactly complain that I've cheated you out of your money! 😉

 

[mmcintosh]

On the OP initial question: here is one bit of info

The University of New England's College of Osteopathic Medicine offers a specific post-baccalaureate pre-health degree online.

http://www.une.edu/com/online/

I was discussing this with some of the staff/faculty from UNE at the AACOM conference in April. Additionally, during my presentation on Non-Traditional Students to about 30 Osteopathic school admissions officers, this question of online courses was discussed at some length. The impression I generally got was somewhere between "we'll wait and see" to "depends on the student." On the latter several specifically advised to contact 4 to 6 schools you are most interested in, write a concise email on your background and plans, and make an appointment to discuss.

More schools are really looking at a whole person and whole application and how all the pieces fit together and do they support the applicant. For example, in a previous posting in this thread an applicant's wife described her husband's patchwork of a degree with CLEP, CC, online, etc and was able to be accepted. This educational background was probably supported by volunteering, shadowing doctors, narrative with his work and life, and likely good MCATs.

Another previous poster did point out that medicine and medical education as a whole tends to be a conservative culture. So reviewing atypical or nontraditional students does not fit the classic paradigm of what a medical student should be. But as nontraditional students, we must think out of the box to show how our backgrounds will ft nicely into the concept of being a good doctor.

One additional thought to show how things are changing. The general thought is that community college prereqs may be looked down upon by adcoms. One exception to this was generally thought that California CC were considered good by the California med schools. With California being likely the most competitive state for MD applicants, I am now hearing directly from some of state med schools that CC will put you at a major disadvantage where just a few years ago it considered minor if at all .

Lastly, for nontraditional students, by definition, defy typical patterns. There are no really absolute answers, just guidelines. Everyone's experience will be different and it is important to hear the various opinions in order to find the pieces that might fit your own situation.

THANK YOU FOR THIS VERY THOROUGH ASSESSMENT OF MY ORIGINAL QUESTION. YOU HAVE PROVIDED SO MUCH FACTUAL INSIGHT INTO THE FACT THAT THIS JOURNEY IS AN INDIVIDUAL ONE for non-trad students. I especially like this one:

"nontraditional students, by definition, defy typical patterns. There are no really absolute answers, just guidelines. Everyone's experience will be different and it is important to hear the various opinions in order to find the pieces that might fit your own situation."

Let's face it folks, TIMES ARE A-CHANGING....Even though there are some that are
so-called non-trads that are against this positive change.

 

[StIGMA]

Let's face it folks, TIMES ARE A-CHANGING....Even though there are some that are
so-called non-trads that are against this positive change.

The fact that more people have access to a medical career is great. Do not for a second think that distance education is any way equivalent to a university education (disclaimer: the individual defines the education more than anything else). There is no substitute for being immersed in an intellectual community (which only a fraction of these students actually utilize, but that is another conversation). There will never be a substitute for universities in terms of unifying education, personal growth and expression, intellectual freedom, investigative/research experiences etc. Distance/online programs should be a secondary option for students without other options, given that they meet the standards but do not surpass them, and they should not be considered by most people who intend to pursue a medical degree.

That said, supplementing your primary education with distance learning is widely accepted and, in my experiences, not stigmatized.

 

[mmcintosh]

The fact that more people have access to a medical career is great. Do not for a second think that distance education is any way equivalent to a university education (disclaimer: the individual defines the education more than anything else). There is no substitute for being immersed in an intellectual community (which only a fraction of these students actually utilize, but that is another conversation). There will never be a substitute for universities in terms of unifying education, personal growth and expression, intellectual freedom, investigative/research experiences etc. Distance/online programs should be a secondary option for students without other options, given that they meet the standards but do not surpass them, and they should not be considered by most people who intend to pursue a medical degree.

That said, supplementing your primary education with distance learning is widely accepted and, in my experiences, not stigmatized.

I totally disagree, Online distance learning is equivalent to in-class instruction. It has already been proven that several applicants have been accepted in med schools nationally and that's it. Most adult students have selected this option because they work full-time and have families. They are definitely INTELLECTUALLY MORE MATURE THAN THE SMARTEST 18-25 YEAR OLDs. Based on experience alone. I will not insult the vast majority of adult students that have chosen this path.

 

[NTF]

They are definitely INTELLECTUALLY MORE MATURE THAN THE SMARTEST 18-25 YEAR OLDs. Based on experience alone. I will not insult the vast majority of adult students that have chosen this path.

But you have no qualms insulting 18-25 year olds?

 

[coralteeth]

I totally disagree, Online distance learning is equivalent to in-class instruction. It has already been proven that several applicants have been accepted in med schools nationally and that's it. Most adult students have selected this option because they work full-time and have families. They are definitely INTELLECTUALLY MORE MATURE THAN THE SMARTEST 18-25 YEAR OLDs. Based on experience alone. I will not insult the vast majority of adult students that have chosen this path.

seriously?? online distance learning is equivalent to in-class instruction?? you are making stuff up. i've taken online classes (calculus 2 and anatomy & physiology 2), and they are a total joke. no learning necessary. there's a reason why there's a stigma to them.

OP, you sound so crazy online. you shout at anyone who disagrees with you. people like you give non-traditionals a bad name. good luck on getting into med school with your online classes.

 

[MomOf3Doc2b]

seriously?? online distance learning is equivalent to in-class instruction?? you are making stuff up. i've taken online classes (calculus 2 and anatomy & physiology 2), and they are a total joke. no learning necessary. there's a reason why there's a stigma to them.

OP, you sound so crazy online. you shout at anyone who disagrees with you. people like you give non-traditionals a bad name. good luck on getting into med school with your online classes.

I don't recommend taking science classes online. With that being said, and at this risk of making this personal...

Did you struggle giving up your cassette tapes for CD's, Checks for the Debit Card? Really get a grip. Boston University has an indistingishable degree granting program which is acquired completely online. You receive the same high quality level of education as students on campus. I have a friend that was just admitted to UC Berkeley Boalt Hall School of Law. 2 years at DVC (Diablo Valley College, CA) 2 years with Boston University (online).

 

[coralteeth]

I don't recommend taking science classes online. With that being said, and at this risk of making this personal...

Did you struggle giving up your cassette tapes for CD's, Checks for the Debit Card? Really get a grip. Boston University has an indistingishable degree granting program which is acquired completely online. You receive the same high quality level of education as students on campus. I have a friend that was just admitted to UC Berkeley Boalt Hall School of Law. 2 years at DVC (Diablo Valley College, CA) 2 years with Boston University (online).

law school? i thought we were talking about med school. i don't know if you know this, but it's a lot harder to get into ANY med school than it is to get into ANY law school. law schools like high lsat and gpa, no matter where they come from. med schools want more substance than just high numbers.

i agree with you that taking science classes online is a bad idea, but your cassette tape and debit card analogy doesn't follow. just b/c i think online classes are inferior to real-life classroom instruction doesn't mean that i also believe technological advances are inferior to traditional approaches. non sequitir. for you to equate an online degree as being on par to a brick and mortar degree is crazy. yeah, sure BU's online degree is just as good as the real thing. indistinguishable? you crazy.

 

[MomOf3Doc2b]

law school? i thought we were talking about med school. i don't know if you know this, but it's a lot harder to get into ANY med school than it is to get into ANY law school. law schools like high lsat and gpa, no matter where they come from. med schools want more substance than just high numbers.

i agree with you that taking science classes online is a bad idea, but your cassette tape and debit card analogy doesn't follow. just b/c i think online classes are inferior to real-life classroom instruction doesn't mean that i also believe technological advances are inferior to traditional approaches. non sequitir. for you to equate an online degree as being on par to a brick and mortar degree is crazy. yeah, sure BU's online degree is just as good as the real thing. indistinguishable? you crazy.

Why not just wish everyone well in whatever road they choose OR here's a suggestion, share your experience not what you've equated as the Gospel?

Never mind, treat this as rhetorical and don't bother replying. I hope those of you that are perusing a degree online aren't dismayed by traditional methods alone.

 

[coralteeth]

Why not just wish everyone well in whatever road they choose OR here's a suggestion, share your experience not what you've equated as the Gospel?

Never mind, treat this as rhetorical and don't bother replying. I hope those of you that are perusing a degree online aren't dismayed by traditional methods alone.

actually, i did share my own personal experience. in an earlier post, i replied to the OP that i took calc 2 and A&P 2 online, and it was a mistake. i learned nothing, grasped nothing, and made 2 very easy A's. sure it was nice to bump up my gpa, and if you need an easy way to make A's, then online classes are the way to go. but the quality of online instruction pales to real-life class room instruction. that's my personal experience, and i'm sticking to it. sure, i got accepted to my school of choice, but it wasn't because of my online classes.

 

[jl lin]

seriously?? online distance learning is equivalent to in-class instruction?? you are making stuff up. i've taken online classes (calculus 2 and anatomy & physiology 2), and they are a total joke. no learning necessary. there's a reason why there's a stigma to them.

OP, you sound so crazy online. you shout at anyone who disagrees with you. people like you give non-traditionals a bad name. good luck on getting into med school with your online classes.

I can't speak to these kinds of classes online. Others however, those that are writing/research intensive, are just fine. You have scheduled class meeting in real time--over the Internet--you have to have head phones with feedback capabities. You are right there with the professor/s and the class interacting.

If anything, the writing intensive courses can be tough grades--even with rubrics, the evals from the profs can be very subjective at times--thus their grading can be tough at times. You put a lot of time into all the reading, your writing, and research and verification and such. It really isn't at all like you are working hard and putting the time in, for you are. You make appointments and meet with profs or ta, etc during their office hours. It's the same deal really.


I think it depends upon the school, the program development and course development, and how things are set up.

It's cool to do some of Drexel's work on campus as well as online. As in all schools really, a lot of the time spent in study and work is, well, on your own time anyway. So for some of these courses, I fail to see how driving or taking transportation to class--time in transit--makes the experience better. You have to know the details of how the particular schools and their courses work.

And as a teacher at a community college, I will tell you that many courses at the CC are at least somewhat hybrid in nature.

This is the real life 'future is now' stuff. It's sort of like functioning today without a cell phone. Sure you can do it; but it's better with. . .

I'm just saying--you have to know the school, the program, and the details of how it works.


Of course classes that require labs are, in my view, better in class and at the bench. Depends on the course.

So far, the courses I have take online at Drexel have been great.
I can see in the future that the WIMBA will involve not just audio and Internet but video as well. Guess I'll have to dress for those classes. LOL

 

[thomasfx10]

Thanks for bringing this post positive and back on topic again.

I have completed CLEP/DANTES (27 credits), life experience credits (30 credits), and took ten of my senior year classes online.

Is it as good as a Harvard degree for the medical school application? No, but it was what I could fit into my schedule / life at the time.

DO schools and Caribbean schools are more forgiving on where you go to college, and that is where I plan on applying to after I take the MCAT.

If you are going for the MD schools then I would say try to stick to universities.

Sometimes we can only do what we can do under the circumstances. Stay positive and ignore the flaming posts.

 

[combatwombat]

Relevant

 

[lawmed]

I usually drink my beverage in its entirety before the glass goes into the dishwasher. 😉
And to be quite honest, I couldn't care less about the "healing process," I'm looking for a career that can provide financial security and still be interesting.

I think it's great that you're pursuing your dream but I also think that you've been watching too many medical dramas on TV. In the real world your career life will be 5 to 10 years max. You're now 39 years old, fast forward 8 years and you will be 47. Assuming that you want to start practicing ASAP after med school graduation, you would would be looking at a residency in Family Practice which is anywhere between 2-4 years of very low pay and long hours. You are now anywhere between 49 and 51 when you actually start practice. In essence you wouldn't be pursuing a long awaited dream but incurring a lifetime of debt and work.

Why would you say a medical career must end at age 60? I would think a good doc can practice to at least 65 or 70. Am I wrong?

 

[mmcintosh]

you are building a picture of yourself to show motivation, commitment, and ability to become a successful physician. How all the pieces of your application get woven into coherent, compelling, competitive packet that fit together to support that is what adcoms seek. This especially true for non-trads with mixed and varied backgrounds

bravo....well said....

 

[jl lin]

Why would you say a medical career must end at age 60? I would think a good doc can practice to at least 65 or 70. Am I wrong?

I've known a fair number that practice longer than that, but they are usually in primary care or family practice. I've worked with a couple of CT surgeons that were still operating past 70, but that was with adults and not peds CT. I know docs that are in great shape (take good care of themselves) and are still working into their 70's. One doc, well, you'd swear she was 60 at best, and she is 75. She moves faster than a lot of 20 somethings I know. But then again, she's not hitting the bars hard on downtime either. She's a health nut, and she takes it seriously. She a great role model. God willing, I want to be her.

Back to the discussion. . .

Again it depends on the school, the courses, and the program. It's usually quite acceptable to take an online course from a respected university that knows what they are doing with these kind of learning modalities. I will say, again, it's best to take the necessary sciences and advanced sciences in labs and groups rather than online labs. The didactics are totally doable online--and have been shown to be so without question. But the labs are better in actual labs working with actual partners and having real supervision with regard to what you are doing and learning.

So I'd stick with reputable schools that have a good track record with these kinds of online courses and that give you the same credit and profs that you would get if you were directly on campus, but I'd also stick with the non-lab kinds of courses. Same thing with courses where you must do direct presentations or even say art courses that involve your own creative attempts and are beyond appreciation courses.

So know the schools, the programs, and the courses, what is their reputation, talk to tons of students that have taken them, and be careful about which courses you take online. Make sure for those courses you do choose that you get the same credit and approval for course work, etc, that you would get if you were directly on campus for the course. Many of the reputable schools that have a good track record with this have profs that teach the very same thing online as well as on campus. Same thing--course outlines, overview of all course work and lectures, the whole nine yards. Try to take courses that also include real time interaction via the Internet at set times. Make sure they have the ability to help you access the large data bases.


But for heaven's sake, don't just take any ole course or courses from some online venue. Make sure it's from a reputable school--fully accredited--and they are pretty much like what is covered if you attend on campus. Make sure they know what they are doing with the technical aspects and setting you up. Get loads of feedback from students. Do your research. There are a number of good schools now that offer a number of courses with credit this way; but you have to know what they really have, if they have been doing it for a while, do the research to find out how they work and what is the feedback on them. Once more, take your physics, bios, and chems and similar courses or upper level sciences on the university campus with actual labs.


So you can do this if you go to a place that is reputable and all the rest; but you still need to take a lot of courses on campus b/c of the labs, etc. Plus it helps to have interaction with actual profs and tas, b/c you are going to need their LORs as well, and while profs that offer courses online can and will interact with you, it's nice if they can see you on a regular basis and really can put a name to a face.


Good luck.