True Pass/Fail Schools?

[fever106]

Back to the point:
- Some schools say they are Pass/Fail but still end up ranking you

- BUT, there are some schools that are TRUE pass/fail and DO NOT RANK.

The three that I can think of are:
1) Yale
2) Mayo
3) Stanford?

Sorry Fever106... I'm not sure what your "deans" sources are. But I get the feeling the people citing what their schools grading policy are based on what their administration (i.e. their dean) has told them and is more accurate.

I am perfectly happy to let this argument die. However, I'm just making a point that just because a school says they are P/F does not mean that they are lumping everyone together in the same category just because they pass. Ultimately, none of this matters in the least! Everyone should just do their best regardless of what the grading system is. After all, you can't control how well the rest of your class does.

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[notdeadyet]

I'm just making a point that just because a school says they are P/F does not mean that they are lumping everyone together in the same category just because they pass.

Well, we're in agreement here! Where I think you were getting resistance from folks is saying that no schools have non-ranking P/F systems. I think lots of us would agree that P/F doesn't imply non-ranking.

Ultimately, none of this matters in the least! Everyone should just do their best regardless of what the grading system is. After all, you can't control how well the rest of your class does.

Actually you can. Hide books from classmates. Don't share materials. Don't group study. All this can inhibit them from doing well and by extension, you will go up in rankings.

Do students do this? Rarely. But I do keep hearing about these competitive, cut-throat environments in which student fight each other to get ahead. This doesn't happen at any non-ranked P/F school I know. Not saying it necessarily happens at ranked schools, but every complaint of competitive environment comes from one.

So it matters if you're looking for a collaborative learning environment. You're pretty safe at non-ranked P/F schools. At ranked schools? Seems to vary. Some have complaints of competition, some seem just as collaborative and sharing as if they were non-ranked. Caveat emptor.

 

[fever106]

Well, we're in agreement here! Where I think you were getting resistance from folks is saying that no schools have non-ranking P/F systems. I think lots of us would agree that P/F doesn't imply non-ranking.

Actually you can. Hide books from classmates. Don't share materials. Don't group study. All this can inhibit them from doing well and by extension, you will go up in rankings.

Do students do this? Rarely. But I do keep hearing about these competitive, cut-throat environments in which student fight each other to get ahead. This doesn't happen at any non-ranked P/F school I know. Not saying it necessarily happens at ranked schools, but every complaint of competitive environment comes from one.

So it matters if you're looking for a collaborative learning environment. You're pretty safe at non-ranked P/F schools. At ranked schools? Seems to vary. Some have complaints of competition, some seem just as collaborative and sharing as if they were non-ranked. Caveat emptor.

I know that a lot of silly rumors circulate about the potential for sabotage at competitive schools. However, the reality is, it really isn't feasible for one student to torch another student's rank. It would be really hard (and incredibly risky) to steal another persons books. And let's face it, if that were to happen, the theft victim can always get another one or borrow it from the library. They are not gonna fail because of it! As for not sharing materials, most important resources are made available to all students by professors. And the internet is free and open to everyone who wants to seek out additional resources. And as for not studying in groups...some people simply don't study well in groups...it just does not work for them. If a student refused to engage in group study purely because they want to "hurt" the other people, they would also be hurting themselves. Even at so called cut throat schools...people who need group study to do well will form these study groups. Come second year, people tend to rely MUCH less on study groups. I know that a lot of people in my class studied with friends first year, but now fly solo. The second year material is about 2-3 times the volume of first year, and is quite a bit more difficult. People tend to just focus on keeping their heads above water. No one I know of has the time to plot sabotage. Bottom line, everyone wants to learn the material and make it through, and regardless of how collaborative the environment may appear, everyone is way too stressed to care. First year and second year are two totally different ball games.

 

[CCLCMer]

And as for CCLMC,
I plainly stated that a school that does not give tests can't really rank its student. I assume that since there are only 32 people in the class, they must find other ways to keep a close eye on how you guys are performing. I just have to ask (and I am not implying that CCLMC students do poorly), how do students prepare for the step 1 if they are never tested on the material from the basic science years?

I'm going to go on a limb based on your question and guess that you must be a first year. People study for Step 1 here the same way they do everywhere. We get First Aid, Qbank, take practice NBME exams, etc. like everyone else, and like you will be doing next year no matter where you go to school. Plus, it's not like we spend the first two years of med school hanging out at the beach or something. We still have classes, homework and we still have to study. We just don't take exams.

To pre-emptively answer your next question, the first two CCLCM classes are the only ones who have taken the boards so far. No official stats were given out on the second class yet, but the first class had 100% pass rate and average of 229. Rumor has it that the second class did better than the first class. My class is the third class. We'll be taking the boards in late June/early July.

 

[ad infinitum]

I'm going to go on a limb based on your question and guess that you must be a first year. People study for Step 1 here the same way they do everywhere. We get First Aid, Qbank, take practice NBME exams, etc. like everyone else, and like you will be doing next year no matter where you go to school. Plus, it's not like we spend the first two years of med school hanging out at the beach or something. We still have classes, homework and we still have to study. We just don't take exams.

To pre-emptively answer your next question, the first two CCLCM classes are the only ones who have taken the boards so far. No official stats were given out on the second class yet, but the first class had 100% pass rate and average of 229. Rumor has it that the second class did better than the first class. My class is the third class. We'll be taking the boards in late June/early July.

Rumor is that the second year class average was ~235

 

[JDWflash44]

how do students prepare for the step 1 if they are never tested on the material from the basic science years?

We actually learn the information because we want to and because its interesting and because we do everything in small groups, so you can generally tell who is on top of their stuff and who isnt when you are discussing things. No tests isnt really going to effect step 1 because we have all of the same practice materials available to us that every other school does. (plus we don't have to memorize all the useless trivia that PhD teachers make students at some other schools memorize for class exams, from what I've heard) And with no tests during the 2nd half of 2nd year, we have much more time to prepare for step 1 specifically. As stated above the first class avg was 229, while supposedly the 2nd class was ~235 with a median ~240, so no tests cant be holding people back that much, heck maybe its making people do better because they're learning the info rather than memorizing it for tests.

Just my $.02 FWIW

 

[nosugrefneb]

Back to the point:
- Some schools say they are Pass/Fail but still end up ranking you

- BUT, there are some schools that are TRUE pass/fail and DO NOT RANK.

The three that I can think of are:
1) Yale
2) Mayo
3) Stanford?

5. Pritzker

 

[antihero94]

5. Pritzker

I am a fourth year student at UConn Med. We definitely have a true/pass fail system in the first 2 years (honors/pass/fail in year 3 and part of year 4).

We have NO AOA. There are NO class rank. I know this becaue I have read my dean's letter and seen my transcript. My dean's letter reads something like "UConn is a pass/fail school. Student X recieved a passing grade for the first 2 years."

Now at the end of 3.25 years when your dean's letter goes out programs ask your dean to put you into categories. There are like 4 and they are something ridiculous like (well qualified, above average, excellent, outstanding), and they put what % of students are in each of these categories (it is like 60%, 20%, 15%, 5%). Please don't quote me on these numbers exactly but this is pretty close.

If anyone is interested to know how you differentiate yourself let me know (because it is very easy).

 

[Euxox]

More than one page of posts and no one has tried making a complete list yet?

Harvard

P/F (Not sure if unranked); also nominally H/P for clinical years, but they also give an "honors with distinction" grade (so effectively you have H w/ distinction = H and H = P)​

Stanford

Unranked P/F; also nominally P/F for clinical years, but they give "pass with distinction" grades that are essentially honors grades​

Johns Hopkins

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

UCSF

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Penn

P/F for first semester, H/P/F for rest of preclinicals​

WUSTL

P/F for first year, H/HP/P/F for second year​

Yale

No grades (students don't get an F on your transcript even if they fail the course; they remediate without consequence); unranked; used to be P/F for clinical years, but this is no longer true​

Columbia

Unranked P/F​

Duke

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Washington

P/F first year, H/P/F second year​

Chicago

P/F (Not sure if unranked), also P/F for fourth year​

UCLA

P/F; also nominally P/F for clinical years, but they give "letters of distinction" that are essentially honors grades​

Michigan

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

UCSD

P/F for first quarter, H/P/F for rest of preclinicals​

Vanderbilt

Unranked P/F​

Pitt

H/P/F for most preclinical classes, P/F for a few​

Northwestern

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Mount Sinai

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

NYU

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Also note that some schools don't have AOA or only elect students to AOA after the residency application process has begun.

I may have made mistakes. Please correct me if you find one.

EDIT: Whoah, this thing is six years old? I swear I saw it on the first page.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

 

[DermViser]

More than one page of posts and no one has tried making a complete list yet?

Harvard

P/F (Not sure if unranked); also nominally H/P for clinical years, but they also give an "honors with distinction" grade (so effectively you have H w/ distinction = H and H = P)​

Stanford

Unranked P/F; also nominally P/F for clinical years, but they give "pass with distinction" grades that are essentially honors grades​

Johns Hopkins

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

UCSF

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Penn

P/F for first semester, H/P/F for rest of preclinicals​

WUSTL

P/F for first year, H/HP/P/F for second year​

Yale

No grades (students don't get an F on your transcript even if they fail the course; they remediate without consequence); unranked; used to be P/F for clinical years, but this is no longer true​

Columbia

Unranked P/F​

Duke

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Washington

P/F first year, H/P/F second year​

Chicago

P/F (Not sure if unranked), also P/F for fourth year​

UCLA

P/F; also nominally P/F for clinical years, but they give "letters of distinction" that are essentially honors grades​

Michigan

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

UCSD

P/F for first quarter, H/P/F for rest of preclinicals​

Vanderbilt

Unranked P/F​

Pitt

H/P/F for most preclinical classes, P/F for a few​

Northwestern

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Mount Sinai

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

NYU

P/F (Not sure if unranked)​

Also note that some schools don't have AOA or only elect students to AOA after the residency application process has begun.

I may have made mistakes. Please correct me if you find one.

EDIT: Whoah, this thing is six years old? I swear I saw it on the first page.

Yeah the Similar Threads on the bottom of the first page.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

UNC's new integrated tech curriculum is also true P/F for the first 1.5 years.