True success=Accumulated wealth, Physician report

[LADoc00]

Refer to this very interesting article:
Medscape: Medscape Access

This is a report of the ACCUMULATED wealth of physicians by specialty with direct correlating data of their actual income. The 2 things are NOT the same. This is important because accumulation of resources IS wealth and not the commonly misunderstood annual income figure.

I say this because when you are looking at medical employment, you can make a better financial situation often by taking a job that has lower pay. The gestalt has to be evaluated and not the raw number.

I take pride in the fact that 57% of Pathologists self-identify as a SAVER. This is the highest of any physician type.

Even though our median income is only so so compared to other specialists, we are as a group among the top subspecs saving to a net worth of 2-5 million. This is awesome!

Pathology is among the quicker subspecs to pay off student loans and among the least likely to self identify as a big consumer spender.

The top specialty in medicine continues to be Derm, with an obscene % accumulating not only 2-5,000,000 but a sizable % accumulating OVER 5,000,000 aka real $. I called this back in the 90s due to the retail angle and the ability to go outside insurance networks with minimal friction combined with high service demands.

Plastics even though they make a TON are garbage savers, living the stereotype of the doc who in their 30s is still renting a high priced urban condo and driving a depreciating Maserati while they troll Tinder.

The poorest appears to be Nephrologists, Internal Med and Allergy displacing what is usually thought of as territory for Peds, although Peds is still not in great shape. Surprisingly Pysch is still weak in savings even though their pay has skyrocketed...perhaps delayed gratification resulting in splurge consumerism.

Toggle between this data set and the income by specialty data set as they are the same study population.

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[deleted314957]

I don’t believe any of it. The reported vacation time is laughable unless
we have undergone a sea change in physician work patterns over
the last 5 years. I have worked with and observed thousands
of docs over the past 40+ years. Doctors have always poor
mouthed on such surveys and under report income, vacation, etc.
Neither I, any of my partners, nor ANY physician i’ve known
have ANY motivation to accurately report this info.

 

[Dave CX]

I believe this because pathologists know they are vulnerable and low on the pecking order, so they save for winter like squirrels. Also, we don't want busy miserable general surgeons, pulmonologists and nephrologists to know that we out earn them so we drive crappy cars etc.

 

[LADoc00]

I believe this because pathologists know they are vulnerable and low on the pecking order, so they save for winter like squirrels.

this. I know I had this crazy "Old Chinese Lady" mentality in terms of money when I got my first job saving everything I could because I thought the cold and lonely winter was right around the corner.

 

[icpshootyz]

this. I know I had this crazy "Old Chinese Lady" mentality in terms of money when I got my first job saving everything I could because I thought the cold and lonely winter was right around the corner.

I still have that mentality. Well, I've always had that mentality. I'm also not terribly impressed at the low bar of $2M they set for net worth. Considering what most physicians make that should not be difficult to achieve at all.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Other docs can exit prison, have multiple life turns, etc and always expect immediate employment and cash flow. When you have that confidence embedded in your gray matter, you will feel a lot more comfortable spending freely (and trolling tinder as you blow through red lights in your depreciating Maserati). Pathologists are more likely to have a Great Depression mentality. Probably good for everyone, but it is more likely beaten into our DNA.

 

[LADoc00]

Other docs can exit prison, have multiple life turns, etc and always expect immediate employment and cash flow. When you have that confidence embedded in your gray matter, you will feel a lot more comfortable spending freely (and trolling tinder as you blow through red lights in your depreciating Maserati). Pathologists are more likely to have a Great Depression mentality. Probably good for everyone, but it is more likely beaten into our DNA.

Yes. It is very possible SDN Pathology forum is actually "moving the needle" by reinforcing such a negative/doom-n-gloom halo around Pathology as a subspec, we are actually improving the savings mentality of the entire specialty.

The Path job market is HORRIBLE, everyone save as much as you can or else your babies will starve and roving bands of marauders will carry off your spouse! Think of Path as the medical specialty of choice for Cormac McCarthy's The Road.

This is your life as a staff Pathologist, get used to it:

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

I had virtually the same thoughts when I looked at the Medscape report. It also rang true for me as I am personally a cross between Ned Stark and Petyr Baelish in the way that I'm preparing for winter by squirreling my money (and other things) away and putting it to work. Trusted friends in other specialties are incredulous when I reveal the net worth number. I get a little thrill watching movies like I am Legend and Terminator 2: Judgement Day when the protagonists reveal contingency plans or a cache of weapons that speak to my prepper soul.

I also think we have a Peter Lynchian ability to see the future of medicine and profit from it due to our proximity to the lab along with the free time (and analytical nature) necessary to evaluate publicly traded companies in this space. I've made a killing accumulating Roche and Illumina since I was first introduced to them as a resident nearly a decade ago. My physician wife asked me what I thought about foundation one testing a year or so ago since it was the hot topic among her colleagues, and I had to laugh as I told her I thought it was awesome which is why we started accumulating FMI stock in 2014 when they went public.

Happy saving. I leave you with the words of the ultimate preppers--the Mormons:

Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you.
--J. Reuben Clark

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Yes. It is very possible SDN Pathology forum is actually "moving the needle" by reinforcing such a negative/doom-n-gloom halo around Pathology as a subspec, we are actually improving the savings mentality of the entire specialty.

The Path job market is HORRIBLE, everyone save as much as you can or else your babies will starve and roving bands of marauders will carry off your spouse! Think of Path as the medical specialty of choice for Cormac McCarthy's The Road.

This is your life as a staff Pathologist, get used to it:

Rotflmao or cmeo

 

[coroner]

I'll throw in my theory as to why this may be which is a bit of a different take on the doom n' gloom/sky is falling mindset as to why we save more.

This goes back to the stereotype that Pathologists are the introverted, socially awkward lab geeks. Just compare our current colleagues/peers/partners to friends or former classmates from med school/residency who went into Ortho, Uro, or even Rads and you'll know what I'm talking about. This stereotypical personality of Pathologists tends to not accompany the type of person who has the baller lifestyle mentality. Therefore, instead of spending money on fast cars, strippers, and casinos, Pathologists are more likely to spend it on amateur radio equipment, photography gear, or a new graphics card to play some computer game; which is obviously a wayyy cheaper lifestyle. There's a reason stereotypes exist: it's because there's some truth behind most of them...

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Working in the lab does give us an advantage when investing. I made a fortune buying Digene stock in the early 2000s. Best investment I ever made in a stock.

I agree with coroner, it is more the pathologist personality than anything. I guarantee you there are more pathologists with metal detectors than any other specialty.

 

[octopusprime]

Working in the lab does give us an advantage when investing. I made a fortune buying Digene stock in the early 2000s. Best investment I ever made in a stock.

I agree with coroner, it is more the pathologist personality than anything. I guarantee you there are more pathologists with metal detectors than any other specialty.

"detectorists"

 

[univlad]

Also, we don't want busy miserable general surgeons, pulmonologists and nephrologists to know that we out earn them so we drive crappy cars etc.

When I interviewed at my current position, I was specifically told that everyone drives inexpensive cars (Honda, Toyota, etc) so as not to become flashy and draw attention to our group. I was told I should not be parking any expensive car in the physicians' parking lot.

 

[Adrian Cocot]

Some of it also has to do with:

- a lot of pathologists being IMGs, who don't have expectations for a lavish lifestyle and thus have better savings habits.
- a lot of pathologists being betas, and not having a hot trophy wife siphoning off their earnings.

 

[octopusprime]

All that being said I don't think being a hermit, driving a Daewoo and shopping at Kohls directly correlates with a more comfortable retirement...and there's a difference between appreciating nice things / being a member of The Finer Things Club / occasionally "treating yo'self" and being flashy, and neither necessarily equates living beyond ones' means.
You already socked away $75-100k for the year and can still comfortably budget $1000/mos for a RR? Fine. That $500/mos more you're paying compared to the guy driving the Highlander will cost you ~$150k you could have tacked on to your retirement...but maybe that RR brings you so damn much pleasure every time you get behind the steering wheel that your quality of life, mental health and overall happiness contribute to prolonging your life by 2 years. Seems worth it to me. ...

 

[LADoc00]

I'll throw in my theory as to why this may be which is a bit of a different take on the doom n' gloom/sky is falling mindset as to why we save more.

This goes back to the stereotype that Pathologists are the introverted, socially awkward lab geeks. Just compare our current colleagues/peers/partners to friends or former classmates from med school/residency who went into Ortho, Uro, or even Rads and you'll know what I'm talking about. This stereotypical personality of Pathologists tends to not accompany the type of person who has the baller lifestyle mentality. Therefore, instead of spending money on fast cars, strippers, and casinos, Pathologists are more likely to spend it on amateur radio equipment, photography, or a new graphics card to play some computer game; which is obviously a wayyy cheaper lifestyle. There's a reason stereotypes exist: it's because there's some truth behind most of them...

Dude you are turning one of our few positives into a negative. Stop with the negative waves, LMAO@ham radio explanation tho, that is hilarious!

 

[LADoc00]

All that being said I don't think being a hermit, driving a Daewoo and shopping at Kohls directly correlates with a more comfortable retirement...and there's a difference between appreciating nice things / being a member of The Finer Things Club / occasionally "treating yo'self" and being flashy, and neither necessarily equates living beyond ones' means.
...

You bring up a good point of proper perspective.

1.) The number one thing financially speaking is MATE SELECTION. If you choose a crappy spouse with massive student debt they cant even remotely tackle on their own then living like a monk (who on rare occasion might get to have sex with said) is useless. Totally useless. Avoid potential spouses at all costs who trail huge debt loads with no clear path to paying that off ON THEIR OWN. Liberally use background checks available for cheap on the internet to get credit scores and total debt loads. I would stick with dating people with FICO scores > 700 and the higher the better. Also avoid potential spouses trailing kids from other relationships, kids especially when not receiving support from the absent parent can be as bad as some student debt.

2.) Compare job locations using a COLA calculator. 300K in LA/SF/NYC is no where near the value of 300K in Houston/St. Louis/Des Moines.

3.) Look at 3 year average income potentials in jobs, but be cautious: Do not hyperfocus on year one salary for partnership track positions BUT at the same time be very aware of jobs that cycle through new staff never really giving younger folks a chance at real partnership. CALL all prior staff in a group who did not make partnership or chose to leave and ask them what the deal was directly.

assuming you have 1-3 on lock down, max out your 401K plan which should be 58000/yr total, have eyes to switch to defined bene plans around age 48-50 to get your pre-tax contributions to 200,000/yr. Pay off student loans AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. If this means living like a college student at age 35, DO IT. If it means driving a crappy car for 5 years, DO IT. I dont care what the interest rate is on the student loans (dont tell us some B.S. about how you can use the $$ in the stock market to make better returns because you are a mini-Warren Buffet..), they are cancer, kill them fast. Do NOT do public service loan repayment, they are a scam (look around as to why).

 

[Unty]

What would be the best way to track down prior staff of a practice?

 

[Mad Jack]

1.) The number one thing financially speaking is MATE SELECTION. If you choose a crappy spouse with massive student debt they cant even remotely tackle on their own then living like a monk (who on rare occasion might get to have sex with said) is useless. Totally useless. Avoid potential spouses at all costs who trail huge debt loads with no clear path to paying that off ON THEIR OWN. Liberally use background checks available for cheap on the internet to get credit scores and total debt loads. I would stick with dating people with FICO scores > 700 and the higher the better. Also avoid potential spouses trailing kids from other relationships, kids especially when not receiving support from the absent parent can be as bad as some student debt.

Why have a spouse at all, lol? That's probably the most cynical breakdown of how to approach adult marriage I've ever read.

 

[icpshootyz]

You bring up a good point of proper perspective.

1.) The number one thing financially speaking is MATE SELECTION. If you choose a crappy spouse with massive student debt they cant even remotely tackle on their own then living like a monk (who on rare occasion might get to have sex with said) is useless. Totally useless. Avoid potential spouses at all costs who trail huge debt loads with no clear path to paying that off ON THEIR OWN. Liberally use background checks available for cheap on the internet to get credit scores and total debt loads. I would stick with dating people with FICO scores > 700 and the higher the better. Also avoid potential spouses trailing kids from other relationships, kids especially when not receiving support from the absent parent can be as bad as some student debt.

2.) Compare job locations using a COLA calculator. 300K in LA/SF/NYC is no where near the value of 300K in Houston/St. Louis/Des Moines.

3.) Look at 3 year average income potentials in jobs, but be cautious: Do not hyperfocus on year one salary for partnership track positions BUT at the same time be very aware of jobs that cycle through new staff never really giving younger folks a chance at real partnership. CALL all prior staff in a group who did not make partnership or chose to leave and ask them what the deal was directly.

assuming you have 1-3 on lock down, max out your 401K plan which should be 58000/yr total, have eyes to switch to defined bene plans around age 48-50 to get your pre-tax contributions to 200,000/yr. Pay off student loans AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. If this means living like a college student at age 35, DO IT. If it means driving a crappy car for 5 years, DO IT. I dont care what the interest rate is on the student loans (dont tell us some B.S. about how you can use the $$ in the stock market to make better returns because you are a mini-Warren Buffet..), they are cancer, kill them fast. Do NOT do public service loan repayment, they are a scam (look around as to why).

I agree with just about everything in there, except paying off low interest student loans. I paid off all my >4% loans using the snowball method, many years ahead of their due dates. But there's no way I can justify paying off my remaining ~$40K 2.85% student loan over putting that money in the market. Just can't do it. Even every single one of my dividend stocks pays >2.85%, not to mention the overall market gains. Maybe someday when I cash out a particularly nice gain I'll throw some at the loans. But I've made way more in stocks than those loans have cost me in interest.

 

[deleted314957]

When I interviewed at my current position, I was specifically told that everyone drives inexpensive cars (Honda, Toyota, etc) so as not to become flashy and draw attention to our group. I was told I should not be parking any expensive car in the physicians' parking lot.

Wow! QED. The ultimate “poor mouth” move.
The income surveys are nonsense. Folks, $2M will/should provide you with
a “safe” income, assuming 2% inflation and historic returns, of “about”
$80K. IF you wait to age 70.5 to retire you get the max SSA of “about”
$40K.
Does $120K/yr sound like a nice, juicy ROI to you?

 

[gbwillner]

You bring up a good point of proper perspective.

1.) The number one thing financially speaking is MATE SELECTION. If you choose a crappy spouse with massive student debt they cant even remotely tackle on their own then living like a monk (who on rare occasion might get to have sex with said) is useless. Totally useless. Avoid potential spouses at all costs who trail huge debt loads with no clear path to paying that off ON THEIR OWN. Liberally use background checks available for cheap on the internet to get credit scores and total debt loads. I would stick with dating people with FICO scores > 700 and the higher the better. Also avoid potential spouses trailing kids from other relationships, kids especially when not receiving support from the absent parent can be as bad as some student debt.

2.) Compare job locations using a COLA calculator. 300K in LA/SF/NYC is no where near the value of 300K in Houston/St. Louis/Des Moines.

3.) Look at 3 year average income potentials in jobs, but be cautious: Do not hyperfocus on year one salary for partnership track positions BUT at the same time be very aware of jobs that cycle through new staff never really giving younger folks a chance at real partnership. CALL all prior staff in a group who did not make partnership or chose to leave and ask them what the deal was directly.

assuming you have 1-3 on lock down, max out your 401K plan which should be 58000/yr total, have eyes to switch to defined bene plans around age 48-50 to get your pre-tax contributions to 200,000/yr. Pay off student loans AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. If this means living like a college student at age 35, DO IT. If it means driving a crappy car for 5 years, DO IT. I dont care what the interest rate is on the student loans (dont tell us some B.S. about how you can use the $$ in the stock market to make better returns because you are a mini-Warren Buffet..), they are cancer, kill them fast. Do NOT do public service loan repayment, they are a scam (look around as to why).

#2 is a huge one. First, I see jobs in the Midwest and South paying more than East/West coast, second, cost of living can be as much as 50-60% less. Unless you are already independently wealthy, do not ever move to San Francisco or New York, and to a somewhat lesser extent Los Angeles or Boston. You will never get rich there, unless you are getting more than $1M/year given taxes and crazy cost of living. Sure, you can rent a cardboard box or live on Skid Row for nothing, but if you want to live within 5-10 minutes of work like me, it can be impossible. Also, the COL calculators don't even come close to being accurate, because they don't account for changes in quality of lifestyle. For example, if you live in Houston and have a family of 5, you can get a 4-5 BR house with 3500+ sq ft in a good neighborhood with good schools for like $300K, plus no state income tax. In NY, SF, Bos you probably can't find a house that big anywhere in a good area, and if you do you are either an hour away and probably still over 1.5M. The only way to make the COL calculators work is if you change expectations and cram your kids into a 2 BR apartment in Queens or something, then you are at 50% more COL than Houston.

Re: loans, I took out FAFSA loans and will never pay them back except at the lowest possible amounts because they are at 2%. I'd rather pay off my mortgage or even invest before paying that back.

 

[dukeresident]

You bring up a good point of proper perspective.

1.) The number one thing financially speaking is MATE SELECTION. If you choose a crappy spouse with massive student debt they cant even remotely tackle on their own then living like a monk (who on rare occasion might get to have sex with said) is useless. Totally useless. Avoid potential spouses at all costs who trail huge debt loads with no clear path to paying that off ON THEIR OWN. Liberally use background checks available for cheap on the internet to get credit scores and total debt loads. I would stick with dating people with FICO scores > 700 and the higher the better. Also avoid potential spouses trailing kids from other relationships, kids especially when not receiving support from the absent parent can be as bad as some student debt.

2.) Compare job locations using a COLA calculator. 300K in LA/SF/NYC is no where near the value of 300K in Houston/St. Louis/Des Moines.

3.) Look at 3 year average income potentials in jobs, but be cautious: Do not hyperfocus on year one salary for partnership track positions BUT at the same time be very aware of jobs that cycle through new staff never really giving younger folks a chance at real partnership. CALL all prior staff in a group who did not make partnership or chose to leave and ask them what the deal was directly.

assuming you have 1-3 on lock down, max out your 401K plan which should be 58000/yr total, have eyes to switch to defined bene plans around age 48-50 to get your pre-tax contributions to 200,000/yr. Pay off student loans AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. If this means living like a college student at age 35, DO IT. If it means driving a crappy car for 5 years, DO IT. I dont care what the interest rate is on the student loans (dont tell us some B.S. about how you can use the $$ in the stock market to make better returns because you are a mini-Warren Buffet..), they are cancer, kill them fast. Do NOT do public service loan repayment, they are a scam (look around as to why).

Sounds like someone is single...

 

[LADoc00]

Why have a spouse at all, lol? That's probably the most cynical breakdown of how to approach adult marriage I've ever read.

Pretty standard advice tbh. Avoid single parents, avoid folks with mad student debt in useless degrees like you avoid HIV. There are plenty of potential spouses with neither of those. Not cynical whatsoever, its literally common sense. For guys if your options are narrowed to a woman with student debt in sociology and a kid from a HS BF but she is a 9/10 vs. a lady with minimal student debt in a real employable field, no kids but is only 7/10 do NOT let your "little head" control your big head. I think my mom even told me that. Works the same for female SDN docs too of course.

Cynical is the guys you see after they get served with divorce papers after spending 5 years chipping away at a spouse's student debt and paying for his/her kid's private school...that tends to make one...salty...very salty...

There is really is no real way to determine what someone's debt load is because so many 20-30 something year olds have no clue what they even owe themselves. Hence the background checker, its like 20 bucks a month. The best $20 you will ever spend..EVER.

I think women owe like 1 trillion of the 1.5 or so trillion, so like 2/3 of the student debt so this would be more pertinent to guys maybe. Of course someone with mad student debt AND kids is like "winning the lottery" of crazy drug resistant HIV or Ebola, so you want to avoid that like you would avoid cuddling a guy wearing a hockey mask and carrying a machete late at night or perhaps some clown peering out from the shadows of a sewer drain? This will be worth insanely more than choosing the best subspec in path LOL...

Yay I graduated from UPenn Med and did my path residency and fellowship in Dermpath at Harvard! Im so awesome, my parents are so proud of me!
...but there is this clown in the sewers with red balloons and I want to swipe right on his tinder pic...

 

[Adrian Cocot]

While we're at it, don't have kids either. Not only do you minimize your overall carbon footprint, but you'll avoid having some 30-year-old leech off your mad crypto gainz.

Passing on half your specific DNA sequence is overrated anyhow.

 

[Dave CX]

LA is not a romantic...which is a sign of intelligence. You can be disciplined in you choice of a mate...and still have a great domestic and sex life.

 

[LADoc00]

While we're at it, don't have kids either. Not only do you minimize your overall carbon footprint, but you'll avoid having some 30-year-old leech off your mad crypto gainz.

Passing on half your specific DNA sequence is overrated anyhow.

Uh sure...whatever floats your boat.

I cant believe how much effort physicians will put into mapping out every aspect of their academic path from the age of 17 to 35 but on all the big decisions will throw caution to the wind like they live in some imaginary Disney movie.

I would assume from your hyperbole, you would also serve me a prime rib eye steak with a homeless person defecating on the top and then tell me if I wasnt really hungry enough after all if I refuse to just scrape off the crap and chow down?

Kids arent the issue per se, I love my OWN kids. The issue is someone else's failed relationship kids...with those kids comes a nearly 2 decades+ of having to deal with a bitter ex spouse or BF/GF, the ensuing jealousy and all the legal B.S. that comes with it.

So if you are busting your butt to get some publications to get into some top tier medical school to have a shot at landing a top notch residency and MAYBE some prestigious fellowship to get some baller job and THEN after that Trail of Tears, pick up a spouse with a baggage chain long enough to choke out the JFK airport baggage handlers, you are an idiot plain and simple.

And no, this didnt happen to me but happened to enough myopic physicians I know to realize that somehow all the neurotic skills that allowed us to hyper-achieve as a pre-med actually can cause us to fail Life itself...

Of course the irony is most girls realize this early on hence why they have like 4-5 typed single space pages entitled "Dealbreakers" they carry to like every first date. 5 pages of dealbreakers of course is overboard, but having nothing is tantamount to slipping down into the sewers with Pennywise and asking him if he has condom because you are ready to roll.

Dont marry folks with kids from other relationships.
Dont marry folks with student debt that without you they would never possibly payback.
How can everyone not agree on these 2 simple things??

 

[LADoc00]

I agree with just about everything in there, except paying off low interest student loans. I paid off all my >4% loans using the snowball method, many years ahead of their due dates. But there's no way I can justify paying off my remaining ~$40K 2.85% student loan over putting that money in the market. Just can't do it. Even every single one of my dividend stocks pays >2.85%, not to mention the overall market gains. Maybe someday when I cash out a particularly nice gain I'll throw some at the loans. But I've made way more in stocks than those loans have cost me in interest.

This is hard I agree. Especially when you can casually pick stocks between sign outs and get 8-9% returns. BUT student debt is the most toxic debt there is, you will sleep easier the day you dump that poison, trust me. Being debt or nearly completely debt free (I have around 9 years to pay off the last of the rental homes I own, with already a few properties under the belt free and clear, no student loans, no car payments, 529 plans for kids college already tipping the scales at obscene $ amounts) will psychologically free you to be able to tackle risk better and expand biz opportunities. You will blow that 8-9% market return by 20%+ increases in your total income. This is really a trust me thing. So trust me.

 

[Adrian Cocot]

Dont marry folks with kids from other relationships.
Dont marry folks with student debt that without you they would never possibly payback.
How can everyone not agree on these 2 simple things??

As far as "mate selection" goes, your points are valid, but there's more to it. If you're already doing a full accounting history on a potential spouse, don't stop at those 2. Also find out:

- Are they working a high-paying job, and do they want to continue?
- Do they want children, and if so, how many?

Big difference in wealth accumulation between marrying another resident and going DINK, or marrying someone who wants to have 5 kids and be a stay-at-home parent.

 

[LADoc00]

As far as "mate selection" goes, your points are valid, but there's more to it. If you're already doing a full accounting history on a potential spouse, don't stop at those 2. Also find out:

- Are they working a high-paying job, and do they want to continue?
- Do they want children, and if so, how many?

Big difference in wealth accumulation between marrying another resident and going DINK, or marrying someone who wants to have 5 kids and be a stay-at-home parent.

of course there is more to "it" but I didnt start a thread for the purposes of dating advice/mate selection. I merely listed it as THE single most important decision in your medical career, hands down.

Ive deeply pondered the DINK relationship, I do not discount it but I also simply dont think it works very well that often. Im not saying you are a fool for doing it at all, but I can tell you there are psychological traps hidden in the woods on that. The kids tend to glue a relationship in subtle ways sociologists who do research on this are often oblivious to. I think that is a very easy logical framework most people would agree on.

The biggest thing in a potential DINK relationship is realizing not only the fact you will never really know if that other person really agrees or merely is go along with the plan hoping you change your mind. Second biggest thing is that people change, especially women getting to a late 30s wall hitting phase of their life. Even guys I know changed their mind in their mid 40s or later, get the vasectomy reversal and find a fertile young woman to birth their heirs (although their "empire" is often quite diminished or simply bankrupt following the divorce from the DINK relationship prior)...this is all interesting stuff but maybe not Pathology subsection material so I will stop commenting here

 

[octopusprime]

Interesting piece in the last WSJ weekend edition, bottom front page RE grad / professional school debt. Followed an orthodontist in his route through USC dental school (which is absurdly expensive) and 3 years out in practice with a whopping $1.2mil debt load...

The fact dental/med/grad/all schools up their tuition by 2-9% annually is insane--they do because they can--, and the interest rates +/- loan management programs the government has offered (deferment, forbearance, etc..) have a huge impact on overall debt, but I have no sympathy for the guy...regardless of all his personal/education decisions [mormon so obligatory 2+ kid scenario, choosing most ridic expensive dental school on face of planet, etc], he's just milking the system: his repayment plan is simply to pay the minimal amount allowed by law (10% discretionary income as defined by some combination of AGI and 150% poverty level) then after 25 years, the balance is just forgiven / added to the public debt.

 

[octopusprime]

...I can tell you there are psychological traps hidden in the woods on that. The kids tend to glue a relationship in subtle ways sociologists who do research on this are often oblivious to. I think that is a very easy logical framework most people would agree on.

Very true. There are things in life larger than one's self...ask most exmilitary/retirees...they didn't do it for the money.
And having kids is not some abstract "noble calling"...I'm definitively a better--and happier--person for having kids, albeit a "poorer" one in financial terms, but that's a trade I'll take any day...there is no amount of money that's going to provide you the social/worldly/financial perspective that parenting offers...properly understood.

 

[dukeresident]

Very true. There are things in life larger than one's self...ask most exmilitary/retirees...they didn't do it for the money.
And having kids is not some abstract "noble calling"...I'm definitively a better--and happier--person for having kids, albeit a "poorer" one in financial terms, but that's a trade I'll take any day...there is no amount of money that's going to provide you the social/worldly/financial perspective that parenting offers...properly understood.

Not everyone is parent material

 

[octopusprime]

Mot everyone is parent material

like i said, "properly understood"

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Uh sure...whatever floats your boat.

I cant believe how much effort physicians will put into mapping out every aspect of their academic path from the age of 17 to 35 but on all the big decisions will throw caution to the wind like they live in some imaginary Disney movie.

I would assume from your hyperbole, you would also serve me a prime rib eye steak with a homeless person defecating on the top and then tell me if I wasnt really hungry enough after all if I refuse to just scrape off the crap and chow down?

Kids arent the issue per se, I love my OWN kids. The issue is someone else's failed relationship kids...with those kids comes a nearly 2 decades+ of having to deal with a bitter ex spouse or BF/GF, the ensuing jealousy and all the legal B.S. that comes with it.

So if you are busting your butt to get some publications to get into some top tier medical school to have a shot at landing a top notch residency and MAYBE some prestigious fellowship to get some baller job and THEN after that Trail of Tears, pick up a spouse with a baggage chain long enough to choke out the JFK airport baggage handlers, you are an idiot plain and simple.

And no, this didnt happen to me but happened to enough myopic physicians I know to realize that somehow all the neurotic skills that allowed us to hyper-achieve as a pre-med actually can cause us to fail Life itself...

Of course the irony is most girls realize this early on hence why they have like 4-5 typed single space pages entitled "Dealbreakers" they carry to like every first date. 5 pages of dealbreakers of course is overboard, but having nothing is tantamount to slipping down into the sewers with Pennywise and asking him if he has condom because you are ready to roll.

Dont marry folks with kids from other relationships.
Dont marry folks with student debt that without you they would never possibly payback.
How can everyone not agree on these 2 simple things??

I broke both these rules, but because of the quality of the individual i married, i am a happier more fulfilled individual imo

 

[y2k_free_radical]

LA is not a romantic...which is a sign of intelligence. You can be disciplined in you choice of a mate...and still have a great domestic and sex life.

How's that swinging going :>}

 

[Dave CX]

How's that swinging going :>}

Ambivalence has kicked in on her part. I'm working on it.

 

[LADoc00]

I broke both these rules, but because of the quality of the individual i married, i am a happier more fulfilled individual imo

as in you married someone who had kids from another relationship and had mad student debt? That's a fairly new one to me, I havent heard of people stepping on both landmines in 1 lifetime. Im sure it happens rarely but its usually one or the other.

Are you a guy or gal?

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Ambivalence has kicked in on her part. I'm working on it.

Very typical reaction.Don't pressure her-it will backfire i assure you.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

as in you married someone who had kids from another relationship and had mad student debt? That's a fairly new one to me, I havent heard of people stepping on both landmines in 1 lifetime. Im sure it happens rarely but its usually one or the other.

Are you a guy or gal?

I married a lady with one child.Second marriage.I then put her through medical school.She is my soul mate and my life would be emptier without her.Not all of us live life in the fast lane.I doubt most of us here have what it takes to do so.

 

[LADoc00]

I married a lady with one child.Second marriage.I then put her through medical school.She is my soul mate and my life would be emptier without her.Not all of us live life in the fast lane.I doubt most of us here have what it takes to do so.

Im not judging at all, just fascinated by the endless viewpoints of the world different from my own. I wish you the best of the luck.

I would hope that she appreciates the incredible leap of faith and messianic generosity of your decision as I would say a majority of parents would not put their own children through med school and raise their grandkids in their house if they have had any other option.

Peace out.

 

[Dave CX]

Very typical reaction.Don't pressure her-it will backfire i assure you.

Breaking into the scene is still a bit of a mystery. I looked up the site you suggested and it seems full of old and yucky people.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Im not judging at all, just fascinated by the endless viewpoints of the world different from my own. I wish you the best of the luck.

I would hope that she appreciates the incredible leap of faith and messianic generosity of your decision as I would say a majority of parents would not put their own children through med school and raise their grandkids in their house if they have had any other option.

Peace out.

It was my wife who became the physician.She is 18 years my junior, but was 27 when she started medical school.

 

[y2k_free_radical]

Breaking into the scene is still a bit of a mystery. I looked up the site you suggested and it seems full of old and yucky people.

I assure you that not all are.Attend a function at a club in a city.You can always leave.

 

[Nilf]

Breaking into the scene is still a bit of a mystery. I looked up the site you suggested and it seems full of old and yucky people.

This reminds me of the classic onion article

https://local.theonion.com/hedonistic-orgy-marred-by-exclusively-overweight-middl-1819565394

 

[octopusprime]

This reminds me of the classic onion article

https://local.theonion.com/hedonistic-orgy-marred-by-exclusively-overweight-middl-1819565394

The location says it all..."North Platte, NE"

 

[Zarniwoop]

Anyone remember the movie Ghost Dog, in which Forest Whittaker plays a wannabe samurai in a New Jersey ghetto? This quote from the movie applies well to mate selection, specialty selection, and most everything else.

Ghost Dog: There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything.

I can imagine a pathologist leading a similar lifestyle to Ghost Dog, while still signing out high volume.

 

[LADoc00]

Anyone remember the movie Ghost Dog, in which Forest Whittaker plays a wannabe samurai in a New Jersey ghetto? This quote from the movie applies well to mate selection, specialty selection, and most everything else.

Ghost Dog: There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything.

I can imagine a pathologist leading a similar lifestyle to Ghost Dog, while still signing out high volume.

I like Ghost Dog, as much as people lampoon it but am having a hard time getting my head around exactly what you are saying from the quote.

If are you "resolved from the beginning" then its analogous to entering into things like mate selection in a "eyes wide open" manner or something?

Im not trying to be obtuse at all, but if that is saying as long you as realize dumb things are dumb, you are all good would be horrible non-advice to anyone. If the goal is not to get wet, the smart samurai will stay in one place and not pass under all the eaves of houses running. Then make up for lost time once the rain stops...right?

 

[Zarniwoop]

Probably if the samurai stayed in one place and avoided the rain altogether, he'd be screwed in some other way, and not be able to make up for the lost time later.
OK, not the best analogy or advice, but Forest Whitaker makes up the holes in the content with bonus points for style.
Avoiding single MILFs and picking dermpath over clinical chemistry will probably help (a lot) but there is still a high probability that life will s**t on you.

On a side note - I'm not trying to suck kneecaps, but I think my life would be in a better place if I was following this blog sooner, esp because of the advice from folks like LADoc. Some of you are like the chief residents that I never had (choke back tears).

 

[Adrian Cocot]

Fun fact: Ghost Dog's soundtrack was produced by RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan. He also produced "Enter the 36 Chambers," which has the single most important personal finance lesson of all:

Cash Rules Everything Around Me
CREAM
Get the money
Dollar dollar bill y'all.

Good life advice is everywhere outside of internet fora. Just gotta pay attention.