Trying to figure out what people think about surgery

[billiejean]

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I'm trying to figure out what first and second years think of surgery (currently m4) before they actually go into rotations.

So naturally in the name of good science I made a survey so that people don't have to post if they don't want to.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=yk1GeNvJmJLVgThtXpT7sg_3d_3d


-Jean

 

[DeadCactus]

Took it. I think you could use some more options on the "What dissuads you?" question. For me, the biggest issue isn't lifestyle during training but the concern that as an attending things aren't guaranteed to be better and can be even worse.

 

[billiejean]

Hrm, what do you mean by things, like the hours worked after residency? I'm always looking to learn more about what you guys think!

 

[TMP-SMX]

After finishing my surgery rotation yesterday, my opinion about surgery has changed significantly. The residency sucks (especially as an intern in trauma and SICU which I already knew) but as an attending other than trauma and SICU the surgical subspecialties have a decent lifestyle. Even general surgeons are so in demand that in many cases you can make a lot of money because there aren't many people like you. Hospitals are going to start paying general surgeons more to persuade people to stick to general rather than the subspecialties.

Either way, I enjoyed the rotation much more than I thought I would. Probably because I like to do procedures and hands on things. However, surgery doesn't really pique my interest in diagnosis because often the diagnosis is given to you. What I enjoyed was vague abdominal pain that was real (something that you read in the books but often don't see other than SBO).

 

[DeadCactus]

Hrm, what do you mean by things, like the hours worked after residency? I'm always looking to learn more about what you guys think!

Yea, mostly work hours. I'm ok with the idea of paying my dues for a few years in a residency and working crazy hours with little sleep and little time for family and hobbies. But I get the impression that it doesn't really end after residency. You may have more freedom to control your situation, but there is still a good chance you'll end up working 100+ hour weeks more frequently than I'd want. I'm ok with having a particularly bad week now and then, but I get the impression that it is more frequent than "now and then"...

 

[phospho]

After finishing my surgery rotation yesterday, my opinion about surgery has changed significantly. The residency sucks (especially as an intern in trauma and SICU which I already knew) but as an attending other than trauma and SICU the surgical subspecialties have a decent lifestyle. Even general surgeons are so in demand that in many cases you can make a lot of money because there aren't many people like you. Hospitals are going to start paying general surgeons more to persuade people to stick to general rather than the subspecialties.

Either way, I enjoyed the rotation much more than I thought I would. Probably because I like to do procedures and hands on things. However, surgery doesn't really pique my interest in diagnosis because often the diagnosis is given to you. What I enjoyed was vague abdominal pain that was real (something that you read in the books but often don't see other than SBO).

Out of curiosity, what did you think of the personalities you interacted with? Is it true that surgeons have a different personality than the other specialties?

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

Out of curiosity, what did you think of the personalities you interacted with? Is it true that surgeons have a different personality than the other specialties?

Well I plan on going into surgery so +1 for egotistical personality. I think having Asian hand genetics + starcraft = success in surgery.

 

[TMP-SMX]

Many of the residents were very nice. Many of the attendings were the same and let students do a lot of the work with incisions, cautery, suturing, and tying knots. Others just let the students observe, cut ties, suction, or retract. Some pimp regularly and others not at all. I didn't meet any necessarily malignant personalities, and it was more positive overall.

 

[womp]

Many of the residents were very nice. Many of the attendings were the same and let students do a lot of the work with incisions, cautery, suturing, and tying knots. Others just let the students observe, cut ties, suction, or retract. Some pimp regularly and others not at all. I didn't meet any necessarily malignant personalities, and it was more positive overall.

Yeah that was mostly my shadowing experiences too. It seems like surgery has a reputation for being like bootcamp, with lots of hard-assed attendings, but in reality it's really not like that, although the workload is heavy and there is a lot of responsibility. People there seemed very helpful and close knit. I actually liked the surgical personalities and culture a lot. They know how to vent it out. No passive aggressive crap.

 

[ZagDoc]

Yeah that was mostly my shadowing experiences too. It seems like surgery has a reputation for being like bootcamp, with lots of hard-assed attendings, but in reality it's really not like that, although the workload is heavy and there is a lot of responsibility. People there seemed very helpful and close knit. I actually liked the surgical personalities and culture a lot. They know how to vent it out. No passive aggressive crap.

Be careful painting with broad strokes that surgery is all puppy dogs and ice cream, especially based on a shadowing experience. The field has come a long way from some of the stereotypes of the past, but it is definitely still very "hard-assed" compared to many medical specialties. There's a certain warrior mentality to the field fostered by the grueling hours. It's less "mean" than in the past but still more rigidly hierarchical and there's less tolerance of imperfection. There's definitely a certain "personality" to the field. Of course there's exceptions to every rule and there's plenty of examples of attending surgeons who don't fit the typical surgeon bill, but the majority of the field still acts and thinks a certain way and if you can't enjoy interacting with that type of personality on a daily basis it can make life miserable. You won't be exposed to many of the nuances of the field until you rotate through as a MS3 (which is why I find this survey interesting)

It's a very polarizing field. People typically either revel in it or get worn down by it. Love it or hate it sort of thing. It's easy to become enamored with the idea of surgery, another thing to still have a grin on your face when you haven't had a day off in 2 weeks, are running on 3 hours of sleep, and are scrubbed on a 5 hour case. Just 2 cents from someone who's actually masochistic enough to consider going into the field.

 

[phospho]

Be careful painting with broad strokes that surgery is all puppy dogs and ice cream, especially based on a shadowing experience. The field has come a long way from some of the stereotypes of the past, but it is definitely still very "hard-assed" compared to many medical specialties. There's a certain warrior mentality to the field fostered by the grueling hours. It's less "mean" than in the past but still more rigidly hierarchical and there's less tolerance of imperfection. There's definitely a certain "personality" to the field. Of course there's exceptions to every rule and there's plenty of examples of attending surgeons who don't fit the typical surgeon bill, but the majority of the field still acts and thinks a certain way and if you can't enjoy interacting with that type of personality on a daily basis it can make life miserable. You won't be exposed to many of the nuances of the field until you rotate through as a MS3 (which is why I find this survey interesting)

It's a very polarizing field. People typically either revel in it or get worn down by it. Love it or hate it sort of thing. It's easy to become enamored with the idea of surgery, another thing to still have a grin on your face when you haven't had a day off in 2 weeks, are running on 3 hours of sleep, and are scrubbed on a 5 hour case. Just 2 cents from someone who's actually masochistic enough to consider going into the field.

In your opinion, does surgery attract this personality you mentioned, or is that aforementioned personality a product of the system?

 

[ZagDoc]

In your opinion, does surgery attract this personality you mentioned, or is that aforementioned personality a product of the system?

Probably a little of both. I know that's a cop out answer, but its also the one that's closest to the truth.

 

[phospho]

Probably a little of both. I know that's a cop out answer, but its also the one that's closest to the truth.

Definitely makes sense. As an M1, I still have no clue what it is that I want to do, but I'm hating every second of anatomy right now. I'm not sure if that means that I'm not going to like surgery.

 

[billiejean]

I've had a lot of good responses so far, if m1/m2's would be interested in distributing this to their classmates as well I would find that wonderful. I'm starting to notice a few trends!

 

[Pinkertinkle]

i think general surgery residents are inferior to subspecialty surgery residents as its not a very competitive specialty

 

[AggieSean]

i think general surgery residents are inferior to subspecialty surgery residents as its not a very competitive specialty

😕 That's a pretty sweeping generalization. What's your basis for such a claim?

 

[weightyheart]

So I took 10 minutes out of my study time to take the survey and read this thread. Where are the results of the survey?!

 

[Taurus]

However, surgery doesn't really pique my interest in diagnosis because often the diagnosis is given to you. What I enjoyed was vague abdominal pain that was real (something that you read in the books but often don't see other than SBO).

In that case, the radiologist hands you the diagnosis. Sorry couldn't help it. 🙂 But it's so true.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

😕 That's a pretty sweeping generalization. What's your basis for such a claim?

personal observation

 

[J ROD]

Surgery definitely is not peds.

If you are aggressive and like to argue, you will like this field. It reminded me of my old football lockeroom. I was with all guys and one attending female (although you would not know she was a lady by her actions and mouth).

Not my cup of tea but I could handle it. There was also more of a hierarchy to held in high esteem too. I did like the ability to cuss. 🙂

Regardless, it is not bootcamp, lol!!

 

[TMP-SMX]

Intern year sucks for surgery but only because you do paperwork all day and don't go to the OR much. The hours aren't that bad. Many programs are very strict about the hour restrictions.

 

[fourchambered]

M2 here. I've shadowed a few surgeons and they seem bored out of their mind. Everything is mind-numbingly routine, as it should be, to ensure good outcomes. The surgeons always end up casually talking the whole time as their body does the work. Entering a routine like that doesn't appeal to me that much right now. I'm thinking a more researchy/medicine role for me, but I'll go into rotations with an open mind.

 

[Blesbok]

Be careful painting with broad strokes that surgery is all puppy dogs and ice cream, especially based on a shadowing experience. The field has come a long way from some of the stereotypes of the past, but it is definitely still very "hard-assed" compared to many medical specialties. There's a certain warrior mentality to the field fostered by the grueling hours. It's less "mean" than in the past but still more rigidly hierarchical and there's less tolerance of imperfection. There's definitely a certain "personality" to the field. Of course there's exceptions to every rule and there's plenty of examples of attending surgeons who don't fit the typical surgeon bill, but the majority of the field still acts and thinks a certain way and if you can't enjoy interacting with that type of personality on a daily basis it can make life miserable. You won't be exposed to many of the nuances of the field until you rotate through as a MS3 (which is why I find this survey interesting)

It's a very polarizing field. People typically either revel in it or get worn down by it. Love it or hate it sort of thing. It's easy to become enamored with the idea of surgery, another thing to still have a grin on your face when you haven't had a day off in 2 weeks, are running on 3 hours of sleep, and are scrubbed on a 5 hour case. Just 2 cents from someone who's actually masochistic enough to consider going into the field.

I don't even think you are exposed to a lot of it as a student. As a student, the attendings are usually pretty nice even if those same attendings rip the residents apart on a daily basis.

 

[TMP-SMX]

My chief resident told me something when I started. He doesn't yell or get angry at any of his colleagues unless they do something that harms the patient. I think that's a pretty good philosophy and I think most surgeons follow that same guideline.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

i think general surgery residents are inferior to subspecialty surgery residents as its not a very competitive specialty

I think the general surgery residents (esp the seniors) are some of the most competent I've worked with in any field, regardless of how competitive that field is.