TUCOM-MI vs. Western

[Jnino]

I have to decide soon between these two schools, would I be completely remiss to choose Touro?? I know Western is a good school and has been around longer but it seems to have its fair share of problems. Both schools have good clinical rotations, and residency matches, while touro board pass rates are higher (i know westerns IS getting better)?

It seems to me that many of these schools are comparable and i've heard a vast majority of people choose schools on location, proximity of family vs. differences of schools.

If anyone could give me a little input on these two Q's, thanks!!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I have to decide soon between these two schools, would I be completely remiss to choose Touro?? I know Western is a good school and has been around longer but it seems to have its fair share of problems. Both schools have good clinical rotations, and residency matches, while touro board pass rates are higher (i know westerns IS getting better)?

It seems to me that many of these schools are comparable and i've heard a vast majority of people choose schools on location, proximity of family vs. differences of schools.

If anyone could give me a little input on these two Q's, thanks!!

Both are excellent schools. Congratulations on getting accepted. Go with your gut feeling and don't look back. You can't go wrong with either.

 

[dr_keki]

Please correct me if I'm wrong guys, but it seems to me that Western is more focused on primary care and Touro is more into specializing.

 

[Jnino]

Please correct me if I'm wrong guys, but it seems to me that Western is more focused on primary care and Touro is more into specializing.

That is true to a point, I was talking with some Western folks b/c their residency match list has ALOT of primary care, mostly Family Practice, and they said at least 30-40% are going more to specializing this year. I believe it is an overall trend that DO schools are getting better and better students, students getting better grades, more specializing. Both match really well in major metropolitan areas (LA and San Fran).

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

Please correct me if I'm wrong guys, but it seems to me that Western is more focused on primary care and Touro is more into specializing.

Not true. COMP have a higher % of its graduates going into specialties than than TUCOM according to the most recent info that I could find, although the difference is not much. http://www.amsa.org/programs/pcscore8_osteo.pdf
What does stand out is that 26% of TUCOM's graduates end up doing Traditional Internships, hopefully by choice.

If you look at COMP's matchlist, you'll see that not only do the graduates specialize, many do it at MD residencies(supposedly more competitive because those are open to MD and DO) while mant other DO schools I see have less of that. A couple of examples in the 2005 matchlist would be the Radiology at USC and ENT at Kaiser.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

by the way the website that i got that PDF file from is http://www.amsa.org/programs/pcscore8.cfm

 

[Doctor Bagel]

it looks like im and fp flip between touro and comp, with im being much more popular at touro and fp more popular at comp. weird, i wonder why? would the amount of traditional rotating internships at comp be lower because so many more people at comp do fp instead of im? from my understanding, you can usually get aoa approval for an fp internship, but it's a little harder for im.

 

[Jnino]

Not true. COMP have a higher % of its graduates going into specialties than than TUCOM according to the most recent info that I could find, although the difference is not much. http://www.amsa.org/programs/pcscore8_osteo.pdf
What does stand out is that 26% of TUCOM's graduates end up doing Traditional Internships, hopefully by choice.

If you look at COMP's matchlist, you'll see that not only do the graduates specialize, many do it at MD residencies(supposedly more competitive because those are open to MD and DO) while mant other DO schools I see have less of that. A couple of examples in the 2005 matchlist would be the Radiology at USC and ENT at Kaiser.

yeah, but going with the thread here, the difference is negligible, there is surgery match at UCSF from Touro, and like you said USC at Western. Overall, what do you think about the schools since the end product for both is very good?

 

[OnMyWayThere]

yeah, but going with the thread here, the difference is negligible, there is surgery match at UCSF from Touro, and like you said USC at Western. Overall, what do you think about the schools since the end product for both is very good?

Exactly. Surgery at UCSF is not easy to get as a DO either. Both schools are excellent and will prepare you for your goal

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

yeah, but going with the thread here, the difference is negligible, there is surgery match at UCSF from Touro, and like you said USC at Western. Overall, what do you think about the schools since the end product for both is very good?

It's not just in the specialties that COMP sends graduates to bigger name/MD places, but you see that also for the primary care matches, COMP sends 4 Med to USC, Peds to USC, Childrens Hospital LA, and USCF(not the Fresno one)....etc, and I personally do not see that in many other DO schools including Touro.

I don't remember UCSF surgery ever taking a DO, so I checked Touro's matchlist, and that's UCSF Fresno, big difference. I'd argue that the Peds at Children's Hospital LA is more competitive than surg. at UCSF Fresno.

It sounds like you have more of an idea about both schools than you think. But since you asked for advice, IMO Western has a better matchlist and the difference is not subtle either.

Good luck to you on your decision.

 

[heech]

It's not just in the specialties that COMP sends graduates to bigger name/MD places, but you see that also for the primary care matches, COMP sends 4 Med to USC, Peds to USC, Childrens Hospital LA, and USCF(not the Fresno one)....etc, and I personally do not see that in many other DO schools including Touro. ...

It sounds like you have more of an idea about both schools than you think. But since you asked for advice, IMO Western has a better matchlist and the difference is not subtle either.

Why is it that I've never seen a discussion about match lists where you weren't involved, Jinyaoysiu?

Just thought I'd point out that COMP's class is approximately double the size of TUCOMs, which means if you're comparing number of matches... either halve the COMP number or double the TUCOM number.

COMP had a great 2005 class, including a remarkable 15 going into surgery this past year (most in ortho, a couple general, 1 ENT I believe) . But in the 2004 class, a far less overwhelming 1 ortho + 2 general *total*. I don't have the 2003 COMP class stats in front of me, but my impression is that it was also < 5 total going into surgery. TUCOM has consistently averaged about 4-6 surgery's every year over the past 3 years, at least. If we double the number for class size: 8-12. Not a bad matchup.

If you're going to trumpet the 4 meds that COMP set to USC this year.. don't forget to mention that TUCOM is also sending 2 meds to USC this year (out of 18 total). And if we adjust for class-size.. looks like another tie, to me.

And 2005 isn't the only year both schools graduated folks. TUCOM can point to a 2003 gas @ Yale-New Haven, as well as a 2004 surgery @ UCSF (not Fresno, just UCSF) for the single examples of excellence.

The 2003, 2004, and 2005 TUCOM lists are here:
http://209.209.34.25/Webdocs/Admissions/2003Match.htm
http://209.209.34.25/Webdocs/Admissions/2004Match.htm
http://www.tucom.edu/2005TucomMatch.htm

You're not going to go wrong, or get a leg up from choosing one over the other. COMP looks to have an advantage on ortho (at least after this year!); TUCOM has traditionally done much better in EM and PM&R. Both are comparable in primary care, as far as I can see, although TUCOM tends to have more peds. You'll get a better feel for which place fits you better when you visit the schools.

I don't know if this is regular practice at COMP, but one thing that's really, really surprised me is the amount of sharing and cooperation that happens at TUCOM. Before every block, there's a flurry of (no exaggeration) 10-20 student-produced notes for the material covered in the previous 6 weeks. All this material + the material from previous classes are also being carefully collected to be passed on to following classes on DVDs.

And there are also other factors. When you visit TUCOM, be sure to ask about the research programs. Although the website will never show it (ghastly, ghastly thing)... TUCOM has brought in a number of new researchers in the past 2-3 years to expand their research program dramatically. If you're interested, drop me a note and I'll see if I can forward on the intro-sheet from a recent research opportunity seminar. If you're interested and you're willing to put in the time, you *will* at least do a few poster sessions, and likely get published during your first two years at TUCOM.

And, coming soon... an annual basketball grudge match with the UC Davis med school.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

that match list from 2005 from COMP with all the Orthos was a typo. The real 2005 match list is here http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2421485&postcount=19 ...

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

Why is it that I've never seen a discussion about match lists where you weren't involved, Jinyaoysiu?

? I answered because he asked. No need to be sour. Don't know who you are and didn't know you cared enough about my posts to even keep tract of me.

Just thought I'd point out that COMP's class is approximately double the size of TUCOMs, which means if you're comparing number of matches... either halve the COMP number or double the TUCOM number.

no it was not twice the size. I just checked. I believe COMP class of 2005 has about 150 and TUCOM class of 2005 has about 120.

And 2005 isn't the only year both schools graduated folks. TUCOM can point to a 2003 gas @ Yale-New Haven, as well as a 2004 surgery @ UCSF (not Fresno, just UCSF) for the single examples of excellence.

Let's not make this ugly by digging into history because I could do the same and it's not going anywhere. I did not say TUCOM did not have any good matches in the past 10 years. All I said is that IMO COMP has a better matchlist and yes I was looking at 2005. Now I stand by my opinion even firmer after you reminded me that there isn't a big difference in class size however there are more numbers of good matches at COMP.

If you think TUCOM has a better or equally good matchlist, that's great. We are not doing the OP any service by saying "all look same!" The OP asked for your opinion so give it to him, and there's no need to mention my name in your response and making it personal by directing it at me. Direct it to OP that asked for your opinion.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Bottom Line: both COMP and TUCOM will get you an awesome education and opportunities in matching.

 

[heech]

no it was not twice the size. I just checked. I believe COMP class of 2005 has about 150 and TUCOM class of 2005 has about 120.

By my math, the TUCOM class has 100 (+/- a couple because I hate squinting at the screen) in the class of 2005.

Let's not make this ugly by digging into history because I could do the same and it's not going anywhere. I did not say TUCOM did not have any good matches in the past 10 years. All I said is that IMO COMP has a better matchlist and yes I was looking at 2005. Now I stand by my opinion even firmer after you reminded me that there isn't a big difference in class size however there are more numbers of good matches at COMP.

I wasn't sour, nor did I think digging into match list history is particularly "ugly". Seems kinda relevant. I just recall you were in a long debate last year with someone from AZCOM, when that person made a similar enthusastic... and ultimately unsupported allegation... that AZCOM's match list was the bomb and incomparable with any other western Osteopathic university. I supported you on that one, but can't do it here when you make the same excessive claim.

A 50% difference in class size is pretty large, and I'm still not sure where you see the "more numbers of good matches at COMP". I see a few isolated superstars on both sides, and other than that I see solid programs across the board.

Now that I'm looking at the "right" match list from COMP, I see there are only 4 surgery's (2 ortho, 1 general-prelim, 1 plastic) in the 2005 class. 3 last year, I think we already said. TUCOM has turned out more surgeons, more EM, and more PM&R historically. I also don't see any indication that COMP's primary care matches are superior to TUCOMs; seems like both schools get a nice scattering around USCs, UCD/UCI/UCSF-Fresno, Kaisers, county teaching hospitals, etc. I don't think anyone's tracking W-L records. Just wanted to point out, for the purpose of anyone trying to choose between the two, that both schools will give you a chance to match into the field/specialty that you want.

And as far as actually choosing between one or the other, there are also some of the other factors I mentioned above.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

can't do it here when you make the same excessive claim.

I'm sorry you felt I made an excessive claim. I didn't say COMP's matchlist was the bomb or the best. I said I noticed more MD placements for specialties and primary care more so than many DO schools. That's an observation I made. Specifically I said IMO Western has a better match list than TUCOM and it's info that the OP specifically was asking for. If you think that's just unacceptably excessive, I apologize for the way I made you feel.

A 50% difference in class size is pretty large

yes, so Western has a larger class, but regardless of class size, I focused more on the location and the caliber. Rad at USC, ENT Surgery at Kaiser, TWO at Children's Hospital LA, Ortho at UMDNJ(md), a couple of Loma Linda, Stanford, Northwestern, none of the locations which TUCOM had in 2005 nor was there a same specialty equal in name or caliber. Now, let's see you point out a few places in 2005 that TUCOM has in a degree of caliber that COMP doesn't have, otherwise, end of story.

Now, if you want to look at the matchlists in the past 10 years, and that's your advice to the OP, great. No need to direct it at me, because I personally have made no claims on "history." Maybe you can even tell the OP to go back in time and enroll in the class of 2000.

TUCOM has turned out more surgeons, more EM, and more PM&R historically.

Now, that's an excessive claim, knowing that Western started business almost 20 years before TUCOM.

I also don't see any indication that COMP's primary care matches are superior to TUCOMs;

Perhaps you're doing selective reading just like you were doing selective counting the first time when you said COMP was twice the size. I'm sure most would agree that Stanford and Children's hospital are "better," in fact some of the best in the country, none of which TUCOM had nor was there something equal in caliber.

BTW, u missed the ENT so there should be 5 surgery matches. ENT is not only a surgery sub-specialty, it's one of the most competitive, especially in MD residencies. I do see that TUCOM also has 5(4 in gen. surg 1 in DO ortho), none of which is even remotely as competitive as the MD ENT, MD Ortho, and DO Plastics that Western has, but I guess you care more about the numbers.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

You guys are talking about 3 or 4 matches out of 200 ... that is 2%. If you're top 2%, you'll most likely get into one of your programs of choice. You can't choose a school based on which campus of UCSF one person matched at. You guys are going way overboard with this. I hope the applicants can see that.

 

[Elysium]

Someone in admissions over at Western should put this Jinyaoysiu chick on the payroll. Is there ever an oppurtunity not to tout Western's so-so match list?

No DO school on the planet is going to put you in an "awesome" position to go to residency anywhere except for FM. If you work your ass off and do audition rotations and kill the USMLE and COMLEX and know someone you might get some great matches. BUT, that's the exception to the rule. If you look at the match list for, say, USC or UCLA that's going to look a wee bit different than COMP's or Touro's. There might be a select few every year that happen to match somewhere great, but it sure as hell isn't because of the awe inspiring training you're getting at either. That's the reality of the situation, sad as it may be.

 

[heech]

Now, if you want to look at the matchlists in the past 10 years, and that's your advice to the OP, great. No need to direct it at me, because I personally have made no claims on "history." Maybe you can even tell the OP to go back in time and enroll in the class of 2000.

Do you have some way of helping the OP go back in time and enroll in the class of 2005, since that's the match list you're exclusively focused on?

I do think COMP and TUCOM's match lists are a relevant topic of discussion for someone choosing a school (which is precisely why it's come up so often). The type of specialties in which one school tends to do well, the geographic distribution, DO vs MD residencies, etc... it makes sense to take these factors into account. But if you're going to look into these factors, you want to look into a larger spread of years, and also take everything with a huge grain of salt.

Every year'll be different, and every year will have its statistical oddities. You can't offer us a personal guarantee that COMP's match list in the year 2010 will look very much like the match list from 2005 (rather than 2004); you can't even tell me that COMP is more likely to have more IM@USC (per capita) than TUCOM, in 2010. Not to mention, looking at the out-liers on the match list really doesn't seem that useful, since TUCOM (and I assume COMP) has such a diverse student class. bth7 here on SDN has an outrageous MCAT, as does another TUCOM '09er with a 34 that I know personally. Ages range from 20 to mid-30s, with backgrounds ranging from post-bacc to fresh out of college to mph to nurses that have been working for a decade. I don't know how their experiences can generalize to a new student.

I personally would look at the match list for one thing, and one thing only: where are the bulk of the students going, and does this school *give me the opportunity* to match into the programs that I'm aiming for. The school'll open the door for ya, but everything else is on your shoulders. TUCOM doesn't need to bow down to COMP on this account; it's done just fine.

There are plenty of other infinite number of very personal factors that play into this too. Everyone needs to do their own research about the pros and cons of each institution.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

Do you have some way of helping the OP go back in time and enroll in the class of 2005, since that's the match list you're exclusively focused on?

No but the logic of using the most recent matchlist is to shed the most recent light on where a school is heading, if any light is the be shed at all. I agree that the matchlist is not definitively useful, because each of our destiny is in our own hands, but is there anything else really useful in helping people pick a school? probably not. I gave the OP what I could and I still stand by my opinion. The rest of your response is compelling and I think the OP would find it useful, if there wasn't a personal undertone of it directing at me.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

Someone in admissions over at Western should put this Jinyaoysiu chick on the payroll. Is there ever an oppurtunity not to tout Western's so-so match list?

Thanks for the sarcasm. You'd be sick if you have a problem with people being positive about themselves.

The rest of your comment about DO schools shows nothing but bitterness. This supposedly comes from a person who can't even handle DO coursework and blames everything else. You have a reputation at TUCOM-NV don't you.

Of course Western can't match up to UCLA, as if most med schools can. But if you look at the matchlist of a MD school that's closer in stats, you'd see that Western does quite well. For example, here is the matchlist of Michigan State(The MD school), even though their ave. MCAT/GPA are still higher than Western's. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=2474545&postcount=31

 

[CoverMe]

*snip*

The rest of your comment about DO schools shows nothing but bitterness. This supposedly comes from a person who can't even handle DO coursework and blames everything else. You have a reputation at TUCOM-NV don't you.

*snip*

Totally and completely uncalled for.

Elysium was just making the point that you're going to have to do BETTER to match into a competitive allo residency, if you're coming from an osteo school (compared to those coming from allo schools).

Currently, I'm just trying to get through the first year... the rest of this crap will take care of itself when the time comes.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

Elysium was just making the point that you're going to have to do BETTER to match into a competitive allo residency, if you're coming from an osteo school (compared to those coming from allo schools).

I'd be surprised if I were the only person who thought her comment was bitter. She said DO schools put people in no awesome place, then she went on to say why, because as a DO student you would have to work your ass off, kill on the boards....etc. As if that's not the norm for anyone(md/do) who wants a competitive residency?

I could easily rephrase what she was saying in a non-bitter and informative way. Actually we all could. Give it a try.

 

[CoverMe]

I was making the point that your personal comments about her academic performance were low and inappropriate. Medical school is FREAKING HARD in my opinion... and in my experience, some of the people who seem to struggle, are the people who actually know the most.

Whether she says it in a bitter tone, a happy tone, or incorporates it into an interpretive dance, the message is still the same.

 

[Jinyaoysiu]

I was making the point that your personal comments about her academic performance were low and inappropriate. Medical school is FREAKING HARD in my opinion... and in my experience, some of the people who seem to struggle, are the people who actually know the most.

Whether she says it in a bitter tone, a happy tone, or incorporates it into an interpretive dance, the message is still the same.

I wanted to point out that she's a whiner, like, oh here comes another bitter whiny comment blamming others. But then after reading your reply, I agree that it was of bad taste. It's not like I'm breezing through school either, like most of us, but at least we could try to stay positive and don't blame others for our business. So I'd like to openly apologize to her(don't think she's read it yet though)and to people(coverme) that had to read my post. It was inappropriate of me. I won't edit it that post out so people could see what I'm taking responsibility for.

 

[tkim]

My lord. Get a grip, people.