Tuition talk

[Ryxndek]

I would really like to get a poll or thread started with current dental students and dentists to shed some light on the tuition costs and their thoughts when choosing schools. I've heard mixed things talking to dentists and students and I think it would be beneficial to talk as we will be making very big financial decisions in the next month.

After touring some schools I definitely like the feel of some more than others. However, when they slap the half-a-million-dollar price tag in your face it really sets you back into reality. I guess my questions are this:

Current students: How do you feel about the amount of debt you are taking on if you are at a private school? Do you feel that you are capable of paying off the large amount of loans you are taking? And you do feel like the experience there is worth the cost?

For current graduated Dentists: do you regret going to private schools, if you did? Do you think at the end of the day, is it better to go to a cheaper school but you may not like the atmosphere vs going to a more expensive school and feeling more at home?

Let's try to have an open and honest discussion about this as tuition prices continue to rise. Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[PerioDont]

Honest and open discussion, I would not go to dental school for anything more than 350.

Even that is honestly a VERY large number, and very difficult to start your career with.

You won't love the atmosphere at any dental school, they all have their unique flavors of misery. Perhaps you may like one city more than another.

Imo, it is better not to be a dentist than to be 500k+ in the hole and then spending years trying to climb out of it.

 

[customx]

If you are going to a school that's $400k+, the military isn't a bad option. You'll be 100% debt free and should be able to save $100-200k during those 4 years, setting you up nicely to purchase a practice.

 

[Ryxndek]

If you are going to a school that's $400k+, the military isn't a bad option. You'll be 100% debt free and should be able to save $100-200k during those 4 years, setting you up nicely to purchase a practice.

I agree, most schools have said that’s one of the options available to us. Unfortunately I do not qualify based on my medical history after speaking with a recruiter. But it’s an excellent option! NHSC is also an option and you could do 2 years and have half your tuition paid for and walk away with less than 250k in debt is also another option.

Thank you for the response!

 

[Ryxndek]

Honest and open discussion, I would not go to dental school for anything more than 350.

Even that is honestly a VERY large number, and very difficult to start your career with.

You won't love the atmosphere at any dental school, they all have their unique flavors of misery. Perhaps you may like one city more than another.

Imo, it is better not to be a dentist than to be 500k+ in the hole and then spending years trying to climb out of it.

Yeah that’s well put. I think at the end of the day, 4 years of misery with less loans is better than looking at 500k+ after graduating, and 20+ years of misery repaying it back.

I think my top choice in state I could get away with 250-300k in loans since I know the area well and can live for less.

Thank you for the input!

 

[axiumgod]

Your dental school experience will be pretty much the same regardless of where you go. Two years of endless tests and practicals, then two years of clinic grinding on requirements. Don’t overthink it, go to the cheapest place possible.

 

[princeafrica]

I think you can never go wrong by choosing the cheapest school you get into.

I have no idea how some people are able to tell during dental school that they are capable of paying off $500k+ in a reasonable amount of time comfortably. People also forget that once you get out of school other debts hit (cars, mortgage, family). Ultimately it is your decision, but don't dig yourself a hole just because another school had a fancy sim lab or they told you you could place 1 implant because ultimately you will finish with the same degree.

Also do not bank on receiving scholarships like NHSC when you make a decision because these scholarships are very competitive and continue to get more competitive.

Also if you want to specialize, you do not need to spend a fortune for the opportunity to specialize. All the schools will give you the opportunity to specialize.

 

[Bereno]

Current students: How do you feel about the amount of debt you are taking on if you are at a private school? (great question! Just remember that current students have little to actually comment on this since they have not started carrying this burden yet). Do you feel that you are capable of paying off the large amount of loans you are taking? (see previous comment). And you do feel like the experience there is worth the cost? (If the experience alone is worth an extra many thousands of dollars then I doubt that these students are the ones footing the bill for school).

For current graduated Dentists: do you regret going to private schools, if you did? Do you think at the end of the day, is it better to go to a cheaper school (yes) but you may not like the atmosphere vs going to a more expensive school and feeling more at home? (Something to consider - do you think the atmosphere/experience of a private school would be inherently better than that of a cheaper school? I went to a state school and was able to get in-state tuition after the first year. I am lucky in that I will likely have a higher average earning potential than most dentists, and even for me I think the cost of my education is silly high. A long time ago I made a financial feasibility document and posted it here on the forums. This document made it clear to me that I either needed to make a ton of money or I needed to go to the cheapest school possible, preferably both. I honestly think some dental students going to high cost private schools might never be able to financially recover from the burden they are under. They just don't understand how the debt will influence their careers.

Let's try to have an open and honest discussion about this as tuition prices continue to rise. Thanks!

My $0.02 above. I might be wrong about a few things here and there, so take my advice for what it is 🍻

 

[Ryxndek]

My $0.02 above. I might be wrong about a few things here and there, so take my advice for what it is 🍻

Appreciate the honest response, thank you!

 

[Bereno]

Appreciate the honest response, thank you!

Anytime!

 

[D1Bound]

Nothing would feel worse than getting up everyday going to work at a corporate office trying to make payments on 500gs. The only way it’s worth it is if your sharp enough to ethically boost your income to 300k+ in the first 3 years out of school. Dentistry isn’t a job where you work a few days a week and go golfing. That’s what all the pre dental students see when they shadow but that’s not reality whatsoever. Get ready to work 50+ hours a week minimum!

 

[allDAT]

The value of a dental degree decreases every year and that decrease accelerates during inflationary periods like we’re in now.

I used to believe inflation would be good for dentists so you could inflate the debt away a little but what’s happened is we’re too dependent on dental insurance and they won’t raise, and sometimes even reduce, the amount they pay per procedure. So dentist incomes have basically flatlined for 20 years.

I used to say 3-400k tops. Now it’s a hard 300k max.

 

[charlestweed]

The value of a dental degree decreases every year and that decrease accelerates during inflationary periods like we’re in now.

I used to believe inflation would be good for dentists so you could inflate the debt away a little but what’s happened is we’re too dependent on dental insurance and they won’t raise, and sometimes even reduce, the amount they pay per procedure. So dentist incomes have basically flatlined for 20 years.

I used to say 3-400k tops. Now it’s a hard 300k max.

So you suggest the OP not to pursue dentistry if he doesn't get accepted to Univ of Minesota, which is the only state school that he went for an interview? NYU, Touro, Creighton, Case Western are all expensive private schools that cost more than 400k to attend.

 

[charlestweed]

Nothing would feel worse than getting up everyday going to work at a corporate office trying to make payments on 500gs.

Yeah, it is very stressful. I’d rather deal with the stress of working 6 days/wk than the stress of paying back the debt.

The only way it’s worth it is if your sharp enough to ethically boost your income to 300k+ in the first 3 years out of school.

Yup, increasing your income is the only way to deal with the debt. IMO, having some debt helps motivate a person to work harder. Debt teaches a person to learn how budget and manage his finances better. I wouldn’t have worked the way I did right after graduation if I didn’t owe any debt. Large debt forced me to be more careful with how I spent money on my new office. I only spent $120k to build my office, instead of $5-600k.

Dentistry isn’t a job where you work a few days a week and go golfing.

Don’t go into dentistry when you have this mentality because you will be disappointed….even if your parents help you and you have zero debt. In order to maintain the success of your practice and a stable income, you have to work hard to keep your patients happy. As soon as you stop putting in the effort (and let your staff and associate dentists run your office), your office declines quickly.

That’s what all the pre dental students see when they shadow but that’s not reality whatsoever. Get ready to work 50+ hours a week minimum!

What many predents didn’t know when they shadowed was that these dentists used to work like a dog too (and borrowed a lot of money too) when they first started their business. And the success these dentists have now is the result of their hard work and sacrifice that they had made earlier in their life.

Here is what Dave feels about work-life balance. I agree with Dave and my life has been great because I have done what he has suggested. But if you read the comments on this youtube video, most of them strongly disagree with Dave. Well, nothing in life is easy. You have to give up something in order to gain something. Dave has worked hard and he raised his kids well. He didn’t lose anything despite all the hard work and sacrifice…..he and his daughter, Rachel, continue to have a very good relationship and they are doing the show together.

 

[allDAT]

So you suggest the OP not to pursue dentistry if he doesn't get accepted to Univ of Minesota, which is the only state school that he went for an interview? NYU, Touro, Creighton, Case Western are all expensive private schools that cost more than 400k to attend.

I wouldn’t recommend any of the private schools unless a military scholarship is on the table.

Spending half a million dollars to become a general dentist is silly talk.

Spending half a million dollars with a physical condition that would eliminate you from consideration of the armed forces might be insane considering you need to remain healthy enough to practice dentistry at full speed for a good 25 years to have a shot at tackling some of these loans and preparing for retirement

 

[charlestweed]

I wouldn’t recommend any of the private schools unless a military scholarship is on the table.

Spending half a million dollars to become a general dentist is silly talk.

Spending half a million dollars with a physical condition that would eliminate you from consideration of the armed forces might be insane considering you need to remain healthy enough to practice dentistry at full speed for a good 25 years to have a shot at tackling some of these loans and preparing for retirement

If you work hard earlier in your life (during the first 5-6 years after graduation….when you are young and healthy) to knock off that massive $500k debt, you won’t need to work 25 years at full speed. By your early to mid 30s and being debt free, working at half speed should be more than fine. But if you have the YOLO mentality, expect to have a mediocre lifestyle for the rest of your life…..regardless of what profession you choose to pursue.

Why is it a bad thing when one has to work 25 years? Most Americans work 25+ years and many of them have much worse physical jobs (electricians, handymen, gardeners, police officers, firemen etc) than our dental field. Most of the successful dentist friends at my age (I am 51) have been working for 25 years and none of them plan to retire any time soon. Yes, they are slowing down and they no longer work at full speed. That’s because they had worked hard earlier in their lives. And now they are enjoying the rewards for their hard work. My sister used to work 7 days/wk when she opened her own practice. My wife worked 6 days/wk and drove 50 miles to work while carrying our son in her womb. And we are working in a very saturated area, where the treatment fees are much lower than in other parts of the country.

Today grad dentists may not be able to afford a $2-3 million house and own several investment properties like us, older grads. But they should still be able to afford $8-900k house, which is still a very nice house if they live outside of CA.

 

[pma96]

I'm in my last year at a state school. Will graduate with around 275k including undergrad debt. I also had to make this decision back in the day of whether I wanted to attend a fancy school with a big name that I loved when I visited, for a 100k more. Looking back, I'm SO GLAD I came to my state school. In addition to the cheap tuition, I got to stay close to family and made a lot of professional connections in the state that I always intended to practice in. State schools traditionally also have good reputations so it's a win-win situation. I actually only regret taking a gap year and not pushing for starting dental school sooner. In my experiences, the younger you graduate and the least amount of debt will set you up for success as a dentist.

 

[Splenda88]

Today grad dentists may not be able to afford a $2-3 million house and own several investment properties like us, older grads. But they should still be able to afford $8-900k house, which is still a very nice house if they live outside of CA.

That is great for someone who is only 51 yo... Your net worth is probable 5+ mil. Is your spouse a high earner as well?

 

[Teeth and Titanite]

Today grad dentists may not be able to afford a $2-3 million house and own several investment properties like us, older grads. But they should still be able to afford $8-900k house, which is still a very nice house if they live outside of CA.

I know you are just giving an example, and I don't mean to sound ungrateful because I agree a $8-900k house is very nice. However, in this scenario the current generation of dentists must put in an equal or greater amount of effort to amass 1/3rd to 1/2 the wealth of older dentists. Still doing well compared to the general population, but feels like a raw deal overall imo.

 

[charlestweed]

I'm in my last year at a state school. Will graduate with around 275k including undergrad debt. I also had to make this decision back in the day of whether I wanted to attend a fancy school with a big name that I loved when I visited, for a 100k more. Looking back, I'm SO GLAD I came to my state school. In addition to the cheap tuition, I got to stay close to family and made a lot of professional connections in the state that I always intended to practice in. State schools traditionally also have good reputations so it's a win-win situation. I actually only regret taking a gap year and not pushing for starting dental school sooner. In my experiences, the younger you graduate and the least amount of debt will set you up for success as a dentist.

Attending a state school is the way to go. But it’s not easy because everyone wants to get into a state school due to lower cost. You have to work hard during your undergrad years to earn good GPA and DAT scores and do a bunch of extracurricular activities. Nothing in life is easy. The harder you work now, the less you will have to work later. With great stats, you get to pick the school that you want to attend.

 

[charlestweed]

That is great for someone who is only 51 yo... Your net worth is probable 5+ mil. Is your spouse a high earner as well?

My wife is also a dentist. Dentistry is a great profession. That’s why I’ve strongly recommended it to many young HS and pre-health college students. You can work part time and have plenty of time to take care of your kids.

Both spouses need to work. And having a good marriage is key.

 

[Splenda88]

My wife is also a dentist. Dentistry is a great profession. That’s why I’ve strongly recommended it to many young HS and pre-health college students. You can work part time and have plenty of time to take care of your kids.

Both spouses need to work. And having a good marriage is key.

Many or probably most healthcare related careers are good if one is ok dealing with people and their many flaws.

 

[charlestweed]

I know you are just giving an example, and I don't mean to sound ungrateful because I agree a $8-900k house is very nice. However, in this scenario the current generation of dentists must put in an equal or greater amount of effort to amass 1/3rd to 1/2 the wealth of older dentists.

If the young grads are ok with working 6 days/week and on the weekends like what some of us, older dentists, did in the past, they should do very well. It's not all bad news for today new grads:

1. The younger dentists are healthier and have more energy than us, older dentists. And they will take many of our patients away from us. That’s why the older dentists have to sell their practice and retire. In recent years, my practices have lost a lot of patients to younger orthodontists because I don’t put in the same effort as I did when I was younger. With zero debt, I am less motivated to work the same way that I did in the past. I stopped going door to door to meet the referring GPs. I stopped writing tx reports to the GPs. I closed a couple of weekend days. It’s a cycle: the young dentists open new offices and take the patients away from the older dentist…..many patients also prefer to see the younger dentists, who use the latest technology…..the older dentists lose their patients to younger dentists, sell their practices, and retire.

2. Dentists' incomes increase over time. 20 years ago, the average income for dentists was $70-80k/yr. Now it’s around $140-150k/yr. My first job paid me $800/day. Now the average pay for a new grad ortho is $1200-1300/day.

3. The older generation will pass on some of their wealth to the younger generation and this should help alleviate (or offset) some of the problems that the younger generation is facing: higher student loan debt, inflation, and saturation etc. According to some of the SDN students, most of their dental classmates have very wealthy parents.

Most of our hard earned savings don’t just vanish when we die. Our kids will have them and when they get old they will pass on some of theirs to their own kids. Even my low income parents were able to give us something. My dad sold the house when my mom passed away and he gave each of us, siblings, $250k.

Still doing well compared to the general population, but feels like a raw deal overall imo.

Yup, dentistry is still better than a lot of jobs out there. It’s not easy to make a decent living nowadays.

 

[charlestweed]

This guy recently married a future dentist who will owe around $750k in student loans by the time she graduates. Dave Ramsey gave him 2 options:

1. Continue to live like a student and work like a dog for the next 3-4 years to pay off the debt.

Or

2. Be a “normal” dentist and live with this massive debt for the next 2 decades of her life.

I hope she chooses the first option.

 

[HMI]

I don't know when prospect students gonna realize dental degree is not worth it anymore. Insane cost of eduction, increased cost of ownership, decreased income, more competition and over saturation, the stress of the job itself, burnout, the time that it takes to become a dentist, and the list goes on. I've been doing this for almost 10 yrs now (general dentist), and every year it's getting harder (and now you have to deal with staffing issues if you are owner). I am not sure how you can make $175-$220K/year as a new dentist with very basic skills out of school. And no, specializing is not gonna help much either.