Turning Back - Thoughts from those in the profession??

[coloradocutter]

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Beware long post....

I'd love any thoughts or advice from those of you in the profession or those of you that have been in the workforce and are now in grad school.

Mine was a nontraditional path. I graduated from law school in 2001 after skipping a year of high school and going straight through from undergrad with no break. I was able to meet and talk to a health psychologist who was working with a family member was diagnosed with MS and became very interested in the profession in 2004 and started taking psych courses that year. In 2005, I applied only to a few programs. I got into a great program the first year I applied (through wonderful help from this board!), but after visiting the location, I did not think that my husband and I could make a life there. It was a very rural location and he basically would not have been able to work for my time there. I took some time off and just kept working as an attorney and moved to a large California firm in that time.

I am not crazy about being an attorney, but I have never done anything else. My job is usually stressful and intellectual stimulating but very isolating and not very social (ok - that's the understatement of the year). I have only worked at large law firms. I went from eating mac & cheese at 24 years old to a $100k salary, which has since doubled. (This is completely insane, if you ask me - and I still don't understand it). But, as you might imagine, despite my unhappiness, I read about the depressing news on the job front and especially for psychologists who can't find internships - and I am just scared to death.

We are about to start a family and I am thinking about this - have I lost my mind. Although I have saved up the money to do this, there are so many things I could do with that money and just take a break from law to "find myself" - open up a bed and breakfast, travel abroad for a few years, etc. As women run from the profession in droves, I have found that I can always find a job in law no matter what holes in my resume or dumb things I have done. Maybe that will change at some point, probably if I was out of the industry for more than 2 years or so. If you have worked in a large firm, it is like a gold card - you could be an idiot, but you worked at Cravath, so they must hire you. So, maybe I should enjoy my life for a while and maybe a PhD is not for me...I just don't know.

People tell me to just get my masters or be a "life coach" and I don't know what to say. I thought that I wanted a doctorate and couldn't justify paying for a PsyD and haven't been able to get into the funded PsyDs, so I interviewed at funded PhDs only. Why did I/do I want to get a doctorate? Probably for the flexibility to teach, consult, and establish a practice. And, sorry to admit, I do want to work with people and see real life unfold. I work in such a sterile, cold environment that is just not me. I believe that anyone can make a living even in a competitive field - but then why get a PhD, can't a masters survive also? Perhaps, it is my snobbery and love of education that is getting in the way. I don't know. It's a long time, and a huge commitment. I just don't know if its worth it anymore. I know that its a decision for me to make but would love to hear from others.

Thanks

 

[psybee]

i agree with jon about seeing a clinicial psychologist yourself, to help yoou sort through these issues. one thing i would say is do not make a commitment to psychology based on your dislike of law (at least parts of it). while law has shown you that the social isolation is something you hate, psychology is just one of a plethora of careers where you can have meaningful day to day social interaction and impact others' lives. perhaps try to focus more on what psychology means to you for it's own sake, not in contrast to law.

 

[coloradocutter]

Jon, thanks for the post. It's not all about money. It is a bit scary to give up that security, but as I mentioned I could go back to it if I was forced to live in a cardboard box. Besides, I am trying to take the road less traveled, the path of moral courage, blah, blah. Part of my concern is specific to psychology (i.e., some of the dismal news that I have read about psychologists having such a difficult time finding internships and also discussions that I have had with grad students who can't seem to get out of grad school). I think the other part is that I feel like I am really guessing at this point. I don't think you can really know what you like until you are doing it - everything else is just an educated guess. The long path in clinical psychology makes that worrisome - could you really be 5 years down the road and find out that you don't even like it? That is pretty frightening. I don't know if graduate school gives you an accurate picture or not. Law school sure wasn't anything like practicing.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I tell people that if they want to do clinical psych, that they should do it because they REALLY want to do it, and not because it is another option. There are many people who want in, so it will take a lot of effort to just get in, let alone do well. It is stressful, time consuming, and for the amount of education required....you'd think they'd pay better....BUT it can offer a comfortable lifestyle.

I was in a similar spot, at a crossroads where I worked my butt off and finally was able to step into a career (big office w/ 6 fig salary), when I realized how miserable I was at my job. I still wonder sometimes if I'd be happier making $150k+ a year w/ a fat portfolio, but then I remind myself of how miserable I was when I left my vacation a day into it for a project, or when 80+ hr weeks were normal, etc.

I can't say what is best for you, but I know for me my 'career' made me sacrafice everything else. Grad school can be rough, but I see the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm still going to incorporate my previous career into my work (the money is too good not to at least consult), but I will have the ability to just walk away one day if need be.

I've followed your story since you started posting, and I've gotten the feeling that you may need some time to really figure out what you want out of life. If you have the time and money, I'd really look into what makes you happy, what you want out of a career, and how you can combine the two.

 

[psy19]

I'm not in the profession yet, but I just wanted to add my 2 cents...

At a recent interview I was at, my host was also a non-trad. She graduated from Harvard Law and practiced as a lawyer for 5 years in Los Angeles before realizing she was completely unhappy with her job. She was a psych major in college and did research back then, but she admitted that it wasn't easy (finding old professors to write letters, adjusting to the pay decrease, etc). But she's now in a great clinical PhD program, and she doesn't regret her decision at all. When I asked her about it, she said that if she's going to be doing something for the next 20-30 years of her life, she wants to be happy... and that the longer she were to wait before leaving the field, the harder it would have been.

in her case, though, she practically hated her job, so i guess it was an easier decision for her. good luck, though, in whatever you choose

 

[socialcog]

Hi there. I feel like I have to contribute here....

I am a master's level therapist and have been in a private practice for 8 years. I have done very well for myself professionally despite not having the training the psychologists have. Needless to say, that is the biggest trade-off. I am returning to school to get a PhD in social psychology in research as I really love the science. I am planning to leave my career as a practitioner.

From what I can glean from these forums, graduate study at the doctoral level is far more rigorous compared to my master's training. I was quite unchallenged in my master's program and needed to go outside of my program to acquire the training I wanted to be a more effective therapist. I was done with my curriculum in one and a half years. It took me three and a half additional years to accumulate my intern hours and sit for my boards before I could start a private practice. I was an additional 2 years (many more years for others I've heard) to market and get established and build a client base.

It's not likely I will be making more money with a PhD. I was cruising in my practice making well over 6 figures. However, I am unchallenged and cannot imagine doing this for the next 25 years. If I had a PhD in clinical, I could take a break by teaching classes or getting involved in research. However, my MFT limits what I can do.

Good luck. 🙂

 

[Cosmo75]

I'm a non-traditional student. I got my BA in psych in 1996 and didn't go to grad school until 2004. I was going to take a year off, and well got sucked into the world of working and making money outside the field of psychology. Because we all know what kind of coin you can pull in with a BA in psych 😀 It was the 90's and I had some computer skills I'd picked up from my father (software engineer) and while working people started to notice I could do things like create MS Access databases (ooooo). So I thought, hey I like I.T. but can't really get anywhere with my BA so I'll get a masters degree part time. So that's what I did, and worked my way into a pretty lucrative position in a corporate behemoth. I had a lot of flexibility, could work from home, had a fabulous boss, but the corporate environment was toxic for me. I ended up really hating my job.

After a life changing event at the ripe age of 26, I began to re-evaluate my choices. I'd always had friends question what the hell I was doing in IT, when my natural place seemed to be in some sort of helping profession. I spent at least a year mulling over walking away from my career and returning to psych. I finally did it, was called crazy by some and was admired by others, and I haven't been happier. I'm heading off to internship in July.

I think what was most important for me was really looking at what I saw myself being happy doing. And not a grass is always greener type deal. What made me miserable at my current job? And would it get better if I simply went and worked somewhere else? Or did I need to really search myself and figure out what would make me happy, regardless of money. When you remove money from the picture, it helps to assess what you'd like to do. I understand you're about to start a family, etc. I had a mortgage at the time I was thinking about this. So I started saving like crazy. It sounds like you've done the same. Has it been hard financially? Sort of. I've certainly depleted my savings. But I've also been able to work periodically as a consultant in I.T., which pays *slightly* better than a TA position to help keep me afloat. Could you do that as an attorney?

Anyway, that's my story. I hope it's helpful. It can certainly be done. Just really make sure this is what you want before you dive in. Best of luck to you!

 

[ny1020]

I understand that you're not crazy about being a lawyer. Is that because you're not interested in practicing as an attorney or more about not wanting to be an attorney for a large firm? I have friends who have been working in huge firms and I know the culture. If you're still interested in law, have you considered making the jump to a small, boutique law firm that might offer a warmer and more supportive environment?

Besides that, it seems like you must have some experience in research or clinical work if you were accepted into a program in the past. Did you love it so much that you want it to be your career? Or would you have happy pursuing other interests? If you really want it, go for it. Money will always be an issue for me, but, I love research so much, I just consider it part of the package. You will make it work - thousands of students do it every year. And some of them have kids, and some of them used to make a lot more money, but I don't think that they would want to be doing something else.

I wish you luck! I would encourage you to take more time to think about this if that's what you need. I wouldn't start a graduate degree unless I was 100% percent sure that's what I wanted to do - for me, it's literally the only path I want to take.

 

[PsyDr]

i was in a similar position as you are now.

can't tell you if you should do the same, that is really a personal decision. but i can say two things that might be helpful:

1) depending on your program and level of involvment there is a chance you will not have more free time than you do now.

2) I experienced significant difficulty in adjusting the manner in which i interacted with psychology people, especially on the business side. I was used to having people be very efficient in their communications with me, which is not how i found a lot of psychologist or therapists to talk. Nothing bad on their part, just a different world.

 

[parto123]

Beware long post....

I'd love any thoughts or advice from those of you in the profession or those of you that have been in the workforce and are now in grad school.

Mine was a nontraditional path. I graduated from law school in 2001 after skipping a year of high school and going straight through from undergrad with no break. I was able to meet and talk to a health psychologist who was working with a family member was diagnosed with MS and became very interested in the profession in 2004 and started taking psych courses that year. In 2005, I applied only to a few programs. I got into a great program the first year I applied (through wonderful help from this board!), but after visiting the location, I did not think that my husband and I could make a life there. It was a very rural location and he basically would not have been able to work for my time there. I took some time off and just kept working as an attorney and moved to a large California firm in that time.

I am not crazy about being an attorney, but I have never done anything else. My job is usually stressful and intellectual stimulating but very isolating and not very social (ok - that's the understatement of the year). I have only worked at large law firms. I went from eating mac & cheese at 24 years old to a $100k salary, which has since doubled. (This is completely insane, if you ask me - and I still don't understand it). But, as you might imagine, despite my unhappiness, I read about the depressing news on the job front and especially for psychologists who can't find internships - and I am just scared to death.

We are about to start a family and I am thinking about this - have I lost my mind. Although I have saved up the money to do this, there are so many things I could do with that money and just take a break from law to "find myself" - open up a bed and breakfast, travel abroad for a few years, etc. As women run from the profession in droves, I have found that I can always find a job in law no matter what holes in my resume or dumb things I have done. Maybe that will change at some point, probably if I was out of the industry for more than 2 years or so. If you have worked in a large firm, it is like a gold card - you could be an idiot, but you worked at Cravath, so they must hire you. So, maybe I should enjoy my life for a while and maybe a PhD is not for me...I just don't know.

People tell me to just get my masters or be a "life coach" and I don't know what to say. I thought that I wanted a doctorate and couldn't justify paying for a PsyD and haven't been able to get into the funded PsyDs, so I interviewed at funded PhDs only. Why did I/do I want to get a doctorate? Probably for the flexibility to teach, consult, and establish a practice. And, sorry to admit, I do want to work with people and see real life unfold. I work in such a sterile, cold environment that is just not me. I believe that anyone can make a living even in a competitive field - but then why get a PhD, can't a masters survive also? Perhaps, it is my snobbery and love of education that is getting in the way. I don't know. It's a long time, and a huge commitment. I just don't know if its worth it anymore. I know that its a decision for me to make but would love to hear from others.

Thanks

If you want to be a psychologist then I think you should go for it. However, if your current issue is mainly that you feel lonely and isolated, perhaps you can switch to a different practice area. As im sure youre aware, there are many areas that have heavy client/counterparty contact, with many conferences and negotiation sessions.

Also, one thing to be aware of, once you leave Biglaw its not that easy to get hired back into it, especially if you left the profession altogether.

 

[deleted190534]

I was in telecommunications for 8 years & making decent money - with only a HS degree. It's likely that when I finish with my PhD, I'll start out making about the same (or less) than I did in telecommunications, so I obviously didn't take this leap for $$. I started out working full time & going to school (undergrad) full time. After a year or two, I really came to understand JUST how miserable I was in my job. My hubby & I agreed for me to quit my job & dedicate myself to school. The major income cut was quite a pill to swallow, but we've adapted quite well (& without regret). Ultimately for me, it came down to doing something that I love...something I get excited about...something I read about in my spare time! I'm totally an idealist, but I wasn't (personally) willing to settle for less than a career that I LOVED. (However, I will echo the disclaimer that it is a personal decision that each individual must carefully consider. 🙂)

 

[Tallison]

Have you thought about pursuing an MSW, which dovetails so well with law that many universities now offer joint programs b/w them? What about guardian ad litem work? Mediation? Family law? Any human service work with an advocacy slant will get you out and around other interesting professionals, and an MSW is less than half the time and cost investment than a PhD...

Of note, my undergrad cognitive professor at U.Va. was an attorney before earning her PhD in psychology...

 

[michalita]

I am a master's level therapist and have been in a private practice for 8 years. I have done very well for myself professionally despite not having the training the psychologists have. ....It's not likely I will be making more money with a PhD. I was cruising in my practice making well over 6 figures.

Just a quick question: Did you accept insurance payments or was this all private pay?

Also, what kind of training did you receive outside of your masters/MFT program?

 

[coloradocutter]

Have you thought about pursuing an MSW, which dovetails so well with law that many universities now offer joint programs b/w them? What about guardian ad litem work? Mediation? Family law? Any human service work with an advocacy slant will get you out and around other interesting professionals, and an MSW is less than half the time and cost investment than a PhD...

Of note, my undergrad cognitive professor at U.Va. was an attorney before earning her PhD in psychology...

Family law - very high conflict and high burnout rates. I interned at a family law firm that was very well respected when I was in college - it had bullet proof windows, need I say more.

I have actually checked into mediation - tons of attorneys and some psychologists doing it and it is hard to make a living doing just that. Also, many attorneys find it is much like law - high conflict and lots of nastiness especially in divorce. Here, going rate is about $80-$100/hour for very green mediators and can go upwards from there, but there is not a reliable base of work. It's not like you are doing mediations back to back unless you are really established - like it takes most folks at least 5 years. High-end business/tech mediators can make much more, but of course my billable rate as an attorney (now, mind you, this is not what I get paid, but what my firm bills me at - if it were the opposite, i'd be in the keys, sipping mai tais) is $525/hour and I am not even a partner yet! And, again, it's not all about the money. If I were trying to just get flexibility, I'd just work from my home doing what I already do and charging myself out at $200+ an hour. But it isn't about that.

I did think about MSW for about 10 seconds. I had two friends in law school that did joint degree - both hated it. After going through the rigors of law school which is all analysis and logical reasoning, they felt like the MSW program was too soft. Also, they didn't enjoy the focus on community/social resources. Both wished that they had done a masters/phd in clinical psych. I have some friends that enjoy it. I haven't done the math either of 2 years of non-funded MSW program with one year supervision in most states, right? vs. MA in clin psych unfunded with 2 years supervision in most states vs. 4 - 5 years for PhD fully funded with 1 year internship. I *think* in the very long run the PhD will get you the most mileage but you would have to be very good at marketing yourself and working in different areas to make it a total no-brainer to go for the PhD. It's still a personal call.