U. of Miami = D.O. unfriendly for rotations?!!

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BrettBatchelor said:
Allopathic student challenge a DO school?

yes, if an allopathic student was to challenge the AOA's policy to only allow students from AOA osteopathic medical schools rotate at their program institutions I think she/he would not overcome.
 
medhacker said:
yes, if an allopathic student was to challenge the AOA's policy to only allow students from AOA osteopathic medical schools rotate at their program institutions I think she/he would not overcome.
You think they wouldn't win if it was an OMM rotation or any rotation? And if you don't think they could win, Why has every DO case won?

Seems like a one way barrier for supposed equal parties.
 
OSU: The letter your received is obviously in error. I know of at least two Nova students/grads who have done the Jackson/Ryder Trauma rotation. The letter is especially unusual since Jackson Memorial and Ryder Trauma are county hospitals and NOT owned by the University of Miami (although they operate the residency and fellowship). What is also interesting is that the trauma fellows do a rotation at Memorial Hospital in Hollywood, where they teach Nova students for 2 months for their 3rd-year surgery rotation!
 
BrettBatchelor said:
You think they wouldn't win if it was an OMM rotation or any rotation? And if you don't think they could win, Why has every DO case won?

Seems like a one way barrier for supposed equal parties.

Any rotation. I think the interest is not there and that can be seen in the number of challenges that have been brought against the AOA by allopathic students (I will dare to speculate that number is "0" without being too afraid of being wrong). Every DO case was won first because they had the ultimate interest to pursue it ( 🙂 ) the remaining details I have not been very exposed to yet. However, I will speculate that it has to do with fulfilment of requirements. That is a DO is perfectly capable of arguing before a court [arbitration board, etc] that she/he has all that is needed to be found competetent in an allopathic rotation.

I think that it is not one way, if and when allopathic students can demonstrate that they have all they need to rotate at an osteopathic institution then they should be allowed (personally, I think every MD student is already capable and when it comes to rotations I think they should be allowed to rotate with us. However, I will also venture to say, and I think you can agree, that the overwhelming majority of allopathic students is not interested in rotating at an osteopathic program's health facility)
 
Pegasus52082 said:
OSU: The letter your received is obviously in error. I know of at least two Nova students/grads who have done the Jackson/Ryder Trauma rotation. The letter is especially unusual since Jackson Memorial and Ryder Trauma are county hospitals and NOT owned by the University of Miami (although they operate the residency and fellowship). What is also interesting is that the trauma fellows do a rotation at Memorial Hospital in Hollywood, where they teach Nova students for 2 months for their 3rd-year surgery rotation!

Now that is good news. OSU take notes my man...
 
medhacker said:
Any rotation. I think the interest is not there and that can be seen in the number of challenges that have been brought against the AOA by allopathic students (I will dare to speculate that number is "0" without being too afraid of being wrong). Every DO case was won first because they had the ultimate interest to pursue it ( 🙂 ) the remaining details I have not been very exposed to yet. However, I will speculate that it has to do with fulfilment of requirements. That is a DO is perfectly capable of arguing before a court [arbitration board, etc] that she/he has all that is needed to be found competetent in an allopathic rotation.

I think that it is not one way, if and when allopathic students can demonstrate that they have all they need to rotate at an osteopathic institution then they should be allowed (personally, I think every MD student is already capable and when it comes to rotations I think they should be allowed to rotate with us. However, I will also venture to say, and I think you can agree, that the overwhelming majority of allopathic students is not interested in rotating at an osteopathic program's health facility)

A visiting clerkship isn't NEEDED. I don't see how a DO student would ever NEED to do a rotation at MD if the school is doing its job in securing the mandatory rotation sites.

I guess I don't want to say that there must be something that allo schools are doing better if DO's want to come rotate but MD's don't want to leave to rotate.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
A visiting clerkship isn't NEEDED. I don't see how a DO student would ever NEED to do a rotation at MD if the school is doing its job in securing the mandatory rotation sites.

I guess I don't want to say that there must be something that allo schools are doing better if DO's want to come rotate but MD's don't want to leave to rotate.


The need in my paragraph is not the need to have a clerkship. The need in my paragraph refers to having all the necessary preparation to participate in a clerkship.

Allopathic schools have been around longer, have greater congressional clout, thus bring more $ = more hospitals = more hospital with more funds = more residencies etc etc I think you get the point. I am not saying that is the only factor why osteopathic students would seek rotations at allopathic institutions but it is a big factor.
 
medhacker said:
The need in my paragraph is not the need to have a clerkship. The need in my paragraph refers to having all the necessary preparation to participate in a clerkship.

Allopathic schools have been around longer, have greater congressional clout, thus bring more $ = more hospitals = more hospital with more funds = more residencies etc etc I think you get the point. I am not saying that is the only factor why osteopathic students would seek rotations at allopathic institutions but it is a big factor.
You seem to be skirting around the issue I'm getting at. I'll send you a PM when I have time to right a detailed description.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
You seem to be skirting around the issue I'm getting at. I'll send you a PM when I have time to right a detailed description.

Good deal 👍
 
Brett, I understand what you're saying, but most med students (regardless of MD/DO) do some elective rotations at hospitals/schools that are not affiliated with their own school. The OP goes to school in OK and is looking to do an elective rotation in FL. That has nothing to do with his school not having enough rotations set up for its students
 
Taus said:
Brett, I understand what you're saying, but most med students (regardless of MD/DO) do some elective rotations at hospitals/schools that are not affiliated with their own school. The OP goes to school in OK and is looking to do an elective rotation in FL. That has nothing to do with his school not having enough rotations set up for its students
My point was an MD applying for a DO rotation would get denied. Why wouldn't it be fair for a DO to get rejected from a rotation?
 
BrettBatchelor said:
My point was an MD applying for a DO rotation would get denied. Why wouldn't it be fair for a DO to get rejected from a rotation?


Bret, it is a matter of jurisprudence. Most legislation has been passed to prevent discrimination against osteopathic professionals (students, physicians, etc), not the other way around. For thsi very purpose - it is illegal to discriminate against an osteopathic professional. If and when, allopathic professionals challenge AOAs position on denying them access to their programs then the legislating/judicial bodies can decide, after seeing all the arguments if reciprocity is due. 🙂
 
Most of my rotations have a mix of MD and DO students, and most hospitals have DO's and MD's working at them. There aren't too many DO only hospitals and rotations that I am aware about...except maybe my OMM rotation. Granted I go to school in Philadelphia where there are a ton of DO's...so this may not be true everywhere. I don't think the lines of "a DO rotation/hospital" or an "MD rotation/hospital" are as clear as you guys are making them out to be.
 
Taus said:
Most of my rotations have a mix of MD and DO students, and most hospitals have DO's and MD's working at them. There aren't too many DO only hospitals and rotations that I am aware about...except maybe my OMM rotation. Granted I go to school in Philadelphia where there are a ton of DO's...so this may not be true everywhere. I don't think the lines of "a DO rotation/hospital" or an "MD rotation/hospital" are as clear as you guys are making them out to be.

That is a good point Taus. Noting that some posts back I began using the term "program". While many (if not most) hospitals are no longer polarized between allo and osteo, the educational programs do retain their original classification as either an allopathic or an osteopathic program. This means in one given facility you can have both MD and DO students because that facility hosts both allopathic and osteopathic educational programs. I hope that is more clear.
 
Let us all realize as students whether DO or MD it is not our fault of the unfair policies that exist. I think both types of students should get to rotate, or get the residency of his or her own chosing (DO or MD).

Out in the "real world" both DOs and MDs have priveleges at whatever kind of hospital--so it is silly for all this separatist mumbo jumbo that exists during the time that we are rotating students and/or when we are applying for residency.

It is not very useful to bicker amongst one another, well the AOA does this or the LCGME does that---it gets us no where.

You should not be silent but speak out. DO students should not shut up just because the AOA doesn't allow MD students in their programs. DO students or MD students do not make the regulations--or necessarily support the unfair ones that exist.
 
BrettBatchelor said:
My point was an MD applying for a DO rotation would get denied. Why wouldn't it be fair for a DO to get rejected from a rotation?

Several MD students (mostly local but some from far away) have done their radiology electives with Dr. Meals when he taught radiology (as a 3rd year core rotation) at PCOM

And an MD student expressing interest in doing an OMM elective - hmmm ... I don't see the harm in allowing a student to participate
 
BrettBatchelor said:
My point was an MD applying for a DO rotation would get denied. Why wouldn't it be fair for a DO to get rejected from a rotation?

From what I have gathered the only reasoning that a MD student would be denied is that DOs are trained to do what all MDs do but MDs are not trained to do what all DOs do--that being OMM.
 
I'm not sure if they would be allowed to or not, but it would definitely be an interesting experience for those who had never seen it....especially since he or she would get to see patients who were actually in pain get quick relief (vs. OMM lab where no one really has major problems to begin with)
 
Raven Feather said:
From what I have gathered the only reasoning that a MD student would be denied is that DOs are trained to do what all MDs do but MDs are not trained to do what all DOs do--that being OMM.
differences i have seen in my curriculum compare with my M.D. school buddies are that my school cut down on pathophysiology and other basic sciences and have OMT classes.

how can you claim that they are equivalent trainings if pathophys and "other basic sciences" have been shortened?

its not a discrimination issue, its a qualification issue. LCME accredidation is in place for a reason - if the school's not accredited, then it doesn't comply with the set standards (either willfully due to difference in philosphy or unwillfully)...its comply/not comply not comply/not comply but we're just as good/not comply

i see no problem with excluding do's from md residencies unless all md's are matched first. just like i'd never impose md's taking the residency spots of people who have paid a good amount of money for do training who didnt match into a do residency

disclaimer: i love do's, and support them and their training fully...i just fundamentally disagree with paranoid sue-happy poeple who thing they're entitled to everything
 
eram said:
how can you claim that they are equivalent trainings if pathophys and "other basic sciences" have been shortened?

its not a discrimination issue, its a qualification issue. LCME accredidation is in place for a reason - if the school's not accredited, then it doesn't comply with the set standards (either willfully due to difference in philosphy or unwillfully)...its comply/not comply not comply/not comply but we're just as good/not comply

i see no problem with excluding do's from md residencies unless all md's are matched first. just like i'd never impose md's taking the residency spots of people who have paid a good amount of money for do training who didnt match into a do residency

They haven't. This is why we can take the USMLE.
 
osler said:
how different?

the only differences i have seen in my curriculum compare with my M.D. school buddies are that my school cut down on pathophysiology and other basic sciences and have OMT classes. In addition to that, there is exactly 1 month of OMM rotation in the clinical years. (which, i believe most M.D. students can choose a CAM rotation, PM and R to be exposed to OMT) or just learn on their spare time. some D.O. schools (at least a few years back) don't even require an OMM rotation. (new AOA rules might have changed this)

The systems function the same way. The LCME/ACGME/AMAs are just bigger and more organized at every level.

Wake up and smell the coffee. it's ridiculous you dwell on the ostepathic students are not D.O.s and LCME students are not MDs... virtually anyone with the desire and will to finish will eventually be MDs, DOs...etc
osteopathic students can join AMA, ACP, AAFP...and a host of "Medical" associations...

maybe not at your school, but there does obviously exist a curriculum difference at some institutions. hence why its not accredited. why not just petition your board for lcme accredidation if you meet the requirements and have equal training - instead of suing the residency?
 
eram said:
maybe not at your school, but there does obviously exist a curriculum difference at some institutions. hence why its not accredited. why not just petition your board for lcme accredidation if you meet the requirements and have equal training - instead of suing the residency?

Um, no.

This has NOTHING to do with it.
 
so different requirements with fewer hours dedicated to some potentially lcme essential subjects has nothing to do with it? why aren't do schools asking for lcme accredidation then? there has to be a reason...and if you use the philosophy rebuttal then why would you even want to do an md residency in the first place if you chose the do path to begin with?
 
eram said:
so different requirements with fewer hours dedicated to some potentially lcme essential subjects has nothing to do with it? why aren't do schools asking for lcme accredidation then? there has to be a reason...and if you use the philosophy rebuttal then why would you even want to do an md residency in the first place if you chose the do path to begin with?

1. No, there aren't fewer hours---they are the same.

2. The AOA wants complete control and wants the LCME to stay out of it. It has to do with politics. If they wanted to give LCME accreditation to every school and then allow a dual match, we could just all assimilate. It could be easily done, but is opposed by the monarchs in the AOA.

3. MD residency is a year shorter, and there are no DO residencies in the state in which I want to live.
 
1. how are there not fewer hours osler's school (which i could be wrongly assuming is do?):

school cut down on pathophysiology and other basic sciences

??

2. why exactly do they want complete control? thats the thing...they want to be able to do their thing how they like it - i have not quarell with that. however, what makes it wrong for a program to not want someone that doesn't fit to their vision or mission? upon admissions screenings, schools reject plenty of 3.9 35+ mcat'er's (ec's etc) because they just dont fit in the program or other reasons (like the whole over-qualified argument) - even though they have the numbers to back up their performance.

3. i sincerely do hope you get your top pick, but not at the expense of going somewhere that you'd have to sue to get in...(i mean, can you imagine the discrimination/environment while working there if you're getting this type of flak from them already?)
 
eram said:
1. how are there not fewer hours osler's school (which i could be wrongly assuming is do?):



??

2. why exactly do they want complete control? thats the thing...they want to be able to do their thing how they like it - i have not quarell with that. however, what makes it wrong for a program to not want someone that doesn't fit to their vision or mission? upon admissions screenings, schools reject plenty of 3.9 35+ mcat'er's (ec's etc) because they just dont fit in the program or other reasons (like the whole over-qualified argument) - even though they have the numbers to back up their performance.

3. i sincerely do hope you get your top pick, but not at the expense of going somewhere that you'd have to sue to get in...(i mean, can you imagine the discrimination/environment while working there if you're getting this type of flak from them already?)

1. I doubt Osler knows what he is talking about. You learn the same amount of material.

2. They want contol for political reasons. Don't ask me about it, because it doesn't make any sense to me, and I really don't care anyway. It has to do with being "seperate but equal."

3. All of the residency programs I am interested it not only have DO's, but have had them as chief residents. This is one of the reasons I decided to go to a DO school in the first place.
 
eram said:
2. why exactly do they want complete control? thats the thing...they want to be able to do their thing how they like it - i have not quarell with that.

Hi

It's refreshing seeing you agree with this point.


however, what makes it wrong for a program to not want someone that doesn't fit to their vision or mission? upon admissions screenings, schools reject plenty of 3.9 35+ mcat'er's (ec's etc) because they just dont fit in the program or other reasons (like the whole over-qualified argument) - even though they have the numbers to back up their performance.

This is an excellent point, with the exception that there already exists legislation deeming such a discrimination illegal, irrespective of vision/mission etc.
 
I agree with DireWolf and I will be a D.O. Merge already!

Yep. Oh, and suing isn't the answer. Take the USMLE. Take Step 1, 2CS, 2CK. Blow the thing out of the water. Join your school's AMA alliance. Run for office. Make your credentials such that anyone who rejects you because of the DO degree will be rejecting a clearly superior candidate.

If you want to be equal, be equal.
 
Yep. Oh, and suing isn't the answer. Take the USMLE. Take Step 1, 2CS, 2CK. Blow the thing out of the water. Join your school's AMA alliance. Run for office. Make your credentials such that anyone who rejects you because of the DO degree will be rejecting a clearly superior candidate.

If you want to be equal, be equal.

2 years old??? Really?
 
Yea..........

Oh well. Seems to be happening a lot lately.
 
how can you claim that they are equivalent trainings if pathophys and "other basic sciences" have been shortened?

its not a discrimination issue, its a qualification issue. LCME accredidation is in place for a reason - if the school's not accredited, then it doesn't comply with the set standards (either willfully due to difference in philosphy or unwillfully)...its comply/not comply not comply/not comply but we're just as good/not comply

i see no problem with excluding do's from md residencies unless all md's are matched first. just like i'd never impose md's taking the residency spots of people who have paid a good amount of money for do training who didnt match into a do residency

disclaimer: i love do's, and support them and their training fully...i just fundamentally disagree with paranoid sue-happy poeple who thing they're entitled to everything

That's an arbitrary statement...unless you have a measuring stick to compare medical curriculum's all across the country. DO's = MD's in their knowledge base, clinical skills....now judgement? is a relative question, there are good and bad doc's on both MD and DO side. As a DO student when i come across some sloppy MD in the clinics shouldn't lead me to think allopathic education fails in training MD's. You define being doctor based on what you perceive to be right...but my friend here's the bottom line you go to a DO school or an MD school the books, the information, the exposure to pathology, the training requirements don't differ in any shape or form. It is true DO's have to learn OMM to graduate..and it really makes us different in level of training but doesn't make us superior or inferior to MDs. Both MDs and DOs deserve the same rights in the clinical world, any opinions on how DOs are unfairly given some benefits should cease, i doubt that..its been the opposite!!
 
It's amazing to me that so many people get so worked up over the MD/DO thing. As a first year DO student neck deep in anatomy, I can tell you that the differences b/t the two are very small, with the exception of OMM.

I would be in favor of allowing any MD student who trained in OMM (say by taking CE's or summer classes) to rotate and match at DO hospitals. Why not? I think it's only fair to expect some reciprocity. It's very hypocritical to expect MD's to take DO's but not vice versa.

I would like to take this opportunity to point out some glaring inconsistancies in the MD/DO argument though:

1. We all take the same classes (DO's add on OMM).
2. Most people (although it has been pointed out here) don't know that the much respected Goljan teaches at a DO school. Are his students inferior? I don't think so.
3. There are some MD schools that were formerlly DO schools. There are also MD schools where students take classes with DO's. There are also MD schools where MD's and DO's spend 3rd and 4th year rotating in the exact same wards.
4. We are all taught by the same teachers. My current anatomy professor has taught for 30 years at a variety of well respected MD schools. The same is true of many DO and MD schools. There's alot of incest in academia and there just aren't THAT many teaching doctors that they don't move around.


I will say one thing. DO's do have a higher fail rate for the USMLE. I believe this to be an artifact of the "second rate" status that has been assigned to DO schools over the last 100 years or so. I will not argue that some DO schools have, historically, accepted some students who probably can't "cut it" and this has contributed to the higher DO fail rate. That being said, I think that this has changed drastically in the last 10 years and will only continue to change. Any DO that passes the USMLE (or the COMLEX for that matter) is worth their salt and capable of anything a board certified MD can do.

Also, keep in mind that DO's want to remain separate from the allopathic world. They (I guess I should say "we" now) believe that we offer something unique, and while I personally feel that there is some difficulty in conveying that difference to the world, I do believe there are slight differences in the approach to patient treatment. I do not believe one approach is better than the other, they are just slightly different. DO's want to remain unique, and not be absorbed into allopathy, as has happened to other types of medicine in past centuries.

Sorry if this was a little off topic, but as someone who could have gone to either type of school, it irks me to see threads like this. All of my classmates are very capable students who could have "made it" just fine at any MD school in the country. Not being allowed to rotate at a hospital is archaic and, frankly, dumb.
 
It's amazing to me that so many people get so worked up over the MD/DO thing. As a first year DO student neck deep in anatomy, I can tell you that the differences b/t the two are very small, with the exception of OMM.

I would be in favor of allowing any MD student who trained in OMM (say by taking CE's or summer classes) to rotate and match at DO hospitals. Why not? I think it's only fair to expect some reciprocity. It's very hypocritical to expect MD's to take DO's but not vice versa.

I would like to take this opportunity to point out some glaring inconsistancies in the MD/DO argument though:

1. We all take the same classes (DO's add on OMM).
2. Most people (although it has been pointed out here) don't know that the much respected Goljan teaches at a DO school. Are his students inferior? I don't think so.
3. There are some MD schools that were formerlly DO schools. There are also MD schools where students take classes with DO's. There are also MD schools where MD's and DO's spend 3rd and 4th year rotating in the exact same wards.
4. We are all taught by the same teachers. My current anatomy professor has taught for 30 years at a variety of well respected MD schools. The same is true of many DO and MD schools. There's alot of incest in academia and there just aren't THAT many teaching doctors that they don't move around.


I will say one thing. DO's do have a higher fail rate for the USMLE. I believe this to be an artifact of the "second rate" status that has been assigned to DO schools over the last 100 years or so. I will not argue that some DO schools have, historically, accepted some students who probably can't "cut it" and this has contributed to the higher DO fail rate. That being said, I think that this has changed drastically in the last 10 years and will only continue to change. Any DO that passes the USMLE (or the COMLEX for that matter) is worth their salt and capable of anything a board certified MD can do.

Also, keep in mind that DO's want to remain separate from the allopathic world. They (I guess I should say "we" now) believe that we offer something unique, and while I personally feel that there is some difficulty in conveying that difference to the world, I do believe there are slight differences in the approach to patient treatment. I do not believe one approach is better than the other, they are just slightly different. DO's want to remain unique, and not be absorbed into allopathy, as has happened to other types of medicine in past centuries.

Sorry if this was a little off topic, but as someone who could have gone to either type of school, it irks me to see threads like this. All of my classmates are very capable students who could have "made it" just fine at any MD school in the country. Not being allowed to rotate at a hospital is archaic and, frankly, dumb.

You draw attention to a very imp point of a level plain field when students pass their boards. I like to expand on what you really implied...most of the pre-med requirements are there to weed out those unfitting for a school's ambitions. This brings me to the most imp point that it doesn't matter if a school accepts you with a 10 MCAT 2.0 GPA or a 40 MCAT 4.0 GPA...both being extremes you are obligated to pass 2 years of medical school curriculum and then get through boards. So if you do happen to be the lucky one who got in with inferior stats and couldn't get through med school it speaks for itself. On the flip side if you do pass med school and get through all your board requirements..who can ever argue that you failed to show competency. So yea people shouldn't bicker about someone with a MCAT score 10 points lower than yours shares the same privileges..if they are passing the same stuff as you are and doing the same job you are doing it gives them all the power to stand on the "same level plain field." In regards to this hospital depriving a DO student the opportunity to rotate just shows how the clinical world is still trailing in terms of catching up to the very reality that DO's are medical doctors that are unfairly portrayed with skepticism. No biggie though..its all going to change period.
 
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