U.S. news rankings over the years - is there a list of each year's rankings? Curious to see have rankings have changed (i.e. changes in #1 rank etc.)

[benefit_sf]

Hi, I'm wondering if anyone has a link to this?

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[ktpremed]

I put this together, which goes back to 2000. The data from 2018 (i.e. their 2019 rankings) are incomplete, however.

 

[openstage]

Interesting. Do blanks mean they were unranked that year?

 

[ktpremed]

Interesting. Do blanks mean they were unranked that year?

Yes, sorry, I'll actually put missing values in for those to make that more clear. The 2018 data is just incomplete - the website transitioned to infinite scroll that year so the wayback web crawler didn't pick up all the data. I was able to find some of the rankings online in random places but haven't really put in the effort to find all of them!

Also correction: data goes back to 1999.

 

[openstage]

No worries. Don’t sink too much of your personal time into it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Use the US News rankings with caution. Generally, it is a reasonable representation of upper tier and lower tier schools. It doesnt mean very much as the med student determines what kind of applicant they can be by the success they attain at the school. Bottom line, it's pretty much all on you to make yourself into a candidate, not so much where you go. Look at the match lists of good residencies and you will see a diverse group of residents from all tiers. It is interesting to see which schools move up or down in the rankings.

 

[82Scout]

I put this together, which goes back to 2000. The data from 2018 (i.e. their 2019 rankings) are incomplete, however.

what ranking is this though best in research? primary care?

 

[ktpremed]

Use the US News rankings with caution. Generally, it is a reasonable representation of upper tier and lower tier schools. It doesnt mean very much as the med student determines what kind of applicant they can be by the success they attain at the school. Bottom line, it's pretty much all on you to make yourself into a candidate, not so much where you go. Look at the match lists of good residencies and you will see a diverse group of residents from all tiers. It is interesting to see which schools move up or down in the rankings.

Absolutely true!! Honestly makes me happy to see that there's always someone who hops in to remind us all of this when a discussion of rankings pops up 🙂

what ranking is this though best in research? primary care?

Check out the readme sheet in the workbook! Describes the details of the data. These are research rankings.

 

[efle]

Do you mean medical school ranks? I made this thread a couple years back

Historical US News Rankings

I've seen this nice lil table of old US News rankings shared around SDN before, and thought I'd make a new one that is updated, has more schools, and is large enough for the human eye. I did the past 10 years for the current first 25 schools (26 really, since 25th was a tie). Here it is for...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Also worth reading would be Chronicidal's old classic blog post about why Harvard is the perennial #1. It's fascinating to data nerds like me -

They don't have the highest LizzyM (WashU)
They don't have the best funded hospital (Hopkins)
They don't have the best Residency Director rating (lower to Hopkins, Penn and UCSF)
They don't have the lowest admit rate of top schools (Stanford)
They don't have a higher Peer rating (tie with Hopkins and UCSF)
They aren't the OG modern med school education design (Flexner report picked Hopkins)

The only metric to buoy them year after year is that they have the largest network of hospitals owned under their umbrella. So their total NIH numbers look vastly higher, despite individual sites like MGH and the Brigham being amongst their peers elsewhere (and the site that HMS students do most of their rotations at, Beth Israel, being lower).

Something to keep in mind whenever you see the most dangerous SDN meme: premeds convincing each other that attending HMS instead of taking a full ride scholarship to a peer school is justifiable!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Do you mean medical school ranks? I made this thread a couple years back

Historical US News Rankings

I've seen this nice lil table of old US News rankings shared around SDN before, and thought I'd make a new one that is updated, has more schools, and is large enough for the human eye. I did the past 10 years for the current first 25 schools (26 really, since 25th was a tie). Here it is for...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Also worth reading would be Chronicidal's old classic blog post about why Harvard is the perennial #1. It's fascinating to data nerds like me -

They don't have the highest LizzyM (WashU)
They don't have the best funded hospital (Hopkins)
They don't have the best Residency Director rating (lower to Hopkins, Penn and UCSF)
They don't have the lowest admit rate of top schools (Stanford)
They don't have a higher Peer rating (tie with Hopkins and UCSF)
They aren't the OG modern med school education design (Flexner report picked Hopkins)

The only metric to buoy them year after year is that they have the largest network of hospitals owned under their umbrella. So their total NIH numbers look vastly higher, despite individual sites like MGH and the Brigham being amongst their peers elsewhere (and the site that HMS students do most of their rotations at, Beth Israel, being lower).

Something to keep in mind whenever you see the most dangerous SDN meme: premeds convincing each other that attending HMS instead of taking a full ride scholarship to a peer school is justifiable!

Fascinating! I had no idea. Thanks for posting

 

[Lucca]

Do you mean medical school ranks? I made this thread a couple years back

Historical US News Rankings

I've seen this nice lil table of old US News rankings shared around SDN before, and thought I'd make a new one that is updated, has more schools, and is large enough for the human eye. I did the past 10 years for the current first 25 schools (26 really, since 25th was a tie). Here it is for...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Also worth reading would be Chronicidal's old classic blog post about why Harvard is the perennial #1. It's fascinating to data nerds like me -

They don't have the highest LizzyM (WashU)
They don't have the best funded hospital (Hopkins)
They don't have the best Residency Director rating (lower to Hopkins, Penn and UCSF)
They don't have the lowest admit rate of top schools (Stanford)
They don't have a higher Peer rating (tie with Hopkins and UCSF)
They aren't the OG modern med school education design (Flexner report picked Hopkins)

The only metric to buoy them year after year is that they have the largest network of hospitals owned under their umbrella. So their total NIH numbers look vastly higher, despite individual sites like MGH and the Brigham being amongst their peers elsewhere (and the site that HMS students do most of their rotations at, Beth Israel, being lower).

Something to keep in mind whenever you see the most dangerous SDN meme: premeds convincing each other that attending HMS instead of taking a full ride scholarship to a peer school is justifiable!

As we love to say, one must nuke Boston twice for HMS to drop from number 1.

I’ll only add to this that from a *research* ranking perspective, it makes some level of sense to do it this way because actually HMS doesn’t *own* most of the hospitals associated with it! They are privately run institutions as I recall. But the physicians are all Harvard faculty, residents are Harvard staff, etc. And the research resources of these institutions are quite impressive. By NIH funding alone MGH would be a top 10 institution by itself IIRC.

and ultimately if you want to match at a Harvard residency there is no better place to go than Harvard.

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

Man if there is anything to learn from seeing how the rankings change over the years it’s that they’re basically as accurate as a New England weather forecast. NYU within 4 years jumps from what like 30 to 11? Think of how short 4 years is; no drastically meaningful improvement could really be accomplished so fast. Lots of smoke.

 

[efle]

Man if there is anything to learn from seeing how the rankings change over the years it’s that they’re basically as accurate as a New England weather forecast. NYU within 4 years jumps from what like 30 to 11? Think of how short 4 years is; no drastically meaningful improvement could really be accomplished so fast. Lots of smoke.

They actually did have a massive influx of cash and very rapid rise of their GPA/MCAT scores. The student bodies they matriculate nowadays, especially since going tuition-free, are legitimately top caliber, with match lists to prove it. And really I think that's what counts for someone choosing schools, though the reputation among residency directors may lag a little behind.

 

[DrOngoGablogian]

They actually did have a massive influx of cash and very rapid rise of their GPA/MCAT scores. The student bodies they matriculate nowadays, especially since going tuition-free, are legitimately top caliber, with match lists to prove it. And really I think that's what counts for someone choosing schools, though the reputation among residency directors may lag a little behind.

For sure, but they went tuition free in 2018 right? So 2011-2016 they go up 19 spots! Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure plenty of improvements were made. But what about those 19 schools they jumped? They were just what, smoking and joking in that time period? To jump 19 spots especially at the top of the list, the improvements would have to be not just earth shattering but earth shattering relative to what everyone else was doing too.

Don’t take this as an attempt to diss NYU that’s not it at all. Rather what I would argue is NYU is a top school regardless of what number is next to it, because the number is largely fluff and doesn’t mean much at all. As plenty of other folks have said it definitely seems the pack a school runs in is important, but its position within that pack is hard to meaningfully identify to say the least.

 

[efle]

For sure, but they went tuition free in 2018 right? So 2011-2016 they go up 19 spots! Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure plenty of improvements were made. But what about those 19 schools they jumped? They were just what, smoking and joking in that time period? To jump 19 spots especially at the top of the list, the improvements would have to be not just earth shattering but earth shattering relative to what everyone else was doing too.

Don’t take this as an attempt to diss NYU that’s not it at all. Rather what I would argue is NYU is a top school regardless of what number is next to it, because the number is largely fluff and doesn’t mean much at all. As plenty of other folks have said it definitely seems the pack a school runs in is important, but its position within that pack is hard to meaningfully identify to say the least.

It's not about any tangible changes to buildings or curriculum. It's about who you matriculate. Top schools don't imbue anything magical into their admits to make them special, their top status and reputation comes from collecting a bunch of the best and brightest together there every year who then go and fill the strongest residencies. NYU did fundamentally change its competitiveness and student body in only 5-10 years and those schools they leapfrogged didn't.

This phenomenon isn't that isolated either, you can see a bunch of undergraduate colleges that did the same thing. Big examples would be places like Vandy (33% --> 8%) or U Chicago (35% --> 6%) that fundamentally changed their applicant pool while others stagnated (e.g. George Washington 37% --> 41%). Test scores also sharply rose at the colleges and med school who learned to play the game much higher and faster.

These days when a strong applicant sits down to figure out their school list, they look at what places are highly ranked and matriculate other people with apps like them. Some schools did a better job of figuring out how to get their name on that list and ride the wave, and others didn't.

 

[ObjectiveBoba]

For sure, but they went tuition free in 2018 right? So 2011-2016 they go up 19 spots! Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure plenty of improvements were made. But what about those 19 schools they jumped? They were just what, smoking and joking in that time period? To jump 19 spots especially at the top of the list, the improvements would have to be not just earth shattering but earth shattering relative to what everyone else was doing too.

There's a pretty simple reason why NYU has shot straight up the rankings. In 2011, its NIH funding was $151 million. By 2019, it was $314 million. The other factors in the US News model are less mutable and are less important, except for the median MCAT (which by itself is worth less than a third of the importance placed on research funding).

Interestingly, the changes made to the US News model from 2018 to 2019 is precisely why Mayo "fell" to number 9 -- non-NIH funding sources were eliminated from the model and Mayo draws a lot of its research funding from private donors.

In the end, these rankings are more barometers of research activity than indicators of medical school quality. Match lists (and residency director rankings) should be looked at instead of US News rankings to decide school lists.

 

[efle]

There's a pretty simple reason why NYU has shot straight up the rankings. In 2011, its NIH funding was $151 million. By 2019, it was $314 million. The other factors in the US News model are less mutable and are less important, except for the median MCAT (which by itself is worth less than a third of the importance placed on research funding).

Interestingly, the changes made to the US News model from 2018 to 2019 is precisely why Mayo "fell" to number 9 -- non-NIH funding sources were eliminated from the model and Mayo draws a lot of its research funding from private donors.

In the end, these rankings are more barometers of research activity than indicators of medical school quality. Match lists (and residency director rankings) should be looked at instead of US News rankings to decide school lists.

To clarify, non-NIH/private donor funding was ONLY used in 2019. It wasn't there up to 2018 and isn't there any more, because it drastically changed the list (e.g. NYU was like tied to Stanford).

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Thanks for creating the historical USNWR rankings over time. Would anyone (perhaps the person who created the spreadsheet) have the residency program director ratings over time?

 

[ItAintEasyBeingCheesy]

To clarify, non-NIH/private donor funding was ONLY used in 2019. It wasn't there up to 2018 and isn't there any more, because it drastically changed the list (e.g. NYU was like tied to Stanford).

Lol...isn't NYU tied with Stanford right now?

 

[efle]

Lol...isn't NYU tied with Stanford right now?

Yeah I think it's back up in the top few again this year. But, I actually think it's legit now. Program director ratings may lag a touch behind, but looking at their GPA/MCAT ranges and all the Choose My School threads that are deciding between NYU for free and old Top 10s for $$$, I think they are enrolling the same caliber of student bodies.

 

[meronebib]

Yeah I think it's back up in the top few again this year. But, I actually think it's legit now. Program director ratings may lag a touch behind, but looking at their GPA/MCAT ranges and all the Choose My School threads that are deciding between NYU for free and old Top 10s for $$$, I think they are enrolling the same caliber of student bodies.

Is that really what defines if a school is good or not?

(Not criticizing, asking based on US News rankings. I know stats have some percentage in rankings, but it’s not significant.)

 

[efle]

Is that really what defines if a school is good or not?

(Not criticizing, asking based on US News rankings. I know stats have some percentage in rankings, but it’s not significant.)

My personal opinion is that if NYU is stealing its students away from cross admits to other top 10s, then they by definition have a top 10 student body. US News doesnt have a metric to capture that, really.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Do you guys think in the next 4 years or so program directors will view NYU as a T10 or T5? I think this year they were like 12 or 13 by PD ratings- asking because I'll probably be applying to residency from NYU then.

 

[efle]

Do you guys think in the next 4 years or so program directors will view NYU as a T10 or T5? I think this year they were like 12 or 13 by PD ratings- asking because I'll probably be applying to residency from NYU then.

NYU is already not going to hold you back from matching anywhere in any field

 

[aldol16]

NYU is already not going to hold you back from matching anywhere in any field

It's not going to hold you back, you're right. But there's also a lot more nuances to matching than most pre-meds understand. Each very field-specific and the factors at play are enormous. Your chances at matching a specific place for specific competitive specialties could boil down to whether there's someone at your home school who knows the higher-ups at the program you want to go to and will go to bat for you. Obviously highly impressive faculty will be more prevalent at higher-ranked schools. But matching happens on a more personal level than many people let on. At least for the competitive specialties.

 

[efle]

It's not going to hold you back, you're right. But there's also a lot more nuances to matching than most pre-meds understand. Each very field-specific and the factors at play are enormous. Your chances at matching a specific place for specific competitive specialties could boil down to whether there's someone at your home school who knows the higher-ups at the program you want to go to and will go to bat for you. Obviously highly impressive faculty will be more prevalent at higher-ranked schools. But matching happens on a more personal level than many people let on. At least for the competitive specialties.

Agreed, and I especially didn't realize the variation of specific fields. If someone already knows they're Ortho, for example, they should be choosing NYU or Cornell > Hopkins or Penn, which is very hard to find out about as a premed.

 

[piii]

Agreed, and I especially didn't realize the variation of specific fields. If someone already knows they're Ortho, for example, they should be choosing NYU or Cornell > Hopkins or Penn, which is very hard to find out about as a premed.

Most of NYUs residencies are mid tier and malignant. Many premeds don’t realize that either.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

@piii They're rated #1 in plastics and derm, #5 in ortho, #4 in radiology, and are top 10/20 in pretty much everything else according to doximity.

 

[piii]

@piii They're rated #1 in plastics and derm, #5 in ortho, #4 in radiology, and are top 10/20 in pretty much everything else according to doximity.

It’s artificially inflated . Yes some of their programs are top tier but these rankings aren’t accurate. NYU is not a top 10 rads program lol, definitely a middle tier not top 20 anesthesia either, for example.

 

[MilesDavisTheDoctor]

Where are you getting your information from? US News also ranks NYU in the top 20 in every specialty it has rankings for except peds. NYU is also top 20 in NIH funding for both rads and anesthesia, it seems pretty believable they're top 20 programs.

 

[proudofmykids]

Most of NYUs residencies are mid tier and malignant. Many premeds don’t realize that either.

Not according to 2020 list where 90% are T10 and 20 program matches.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachments/nyu-som-2020-match-results-pdf.299161/

 

[piii]

Here come the NYU shills... @Yankees27 @MilesDavisTheDoctor. Typical of a place so focused on "prestige" it doesn't have.

 

[efle]

Here come the NYU shills... Typical of a place so focused on "prestige" it doesn't have.

I mean, what evidence have you got? He's right, when you look at every metric we have (Doximity, US News, NIH funding, even soft stuff like location/popularity) it's solid across them all.

Nobody is saying it's the new Mass Gen, but it's far from "mid tier"