UCC vs. RCSI

[maianelson]

I'm from the US and I have been accepted into University College Cork (UCC) and Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RSCI) for the undergraduate medical program. Afterward, I hope to complete my residency in the states. Although I am not sure, I am leaning toward specializing in some type of surgery. Based on match rates and data, going to RCSI would increase my chances of getting into surgery residencies, and in that sense, would also give me more flexibility in choosing my specialty.

UCC seems fairly restricted in this case. Mostly all graduates matched to medicine residencies (i.e. Internal medicine, Family medicine, Pediatrics, etc.), and very few into surgery. So, it seems going through UCC would decrease my options to only the least-competitive specialties.

If I am sure about a specialty, then there are definitely ways (early on research, internships, etc,) in either option, to get matched to my residency of choice. However, I am not sure, and I do not think I will be until clinical rotations. And when that is the case, I suppose having options is better (RCSI). However, RCSI is the most expensive--75K+ USD a year including living costs and the like, whereas, UCC is only 55k+ USD.

So the question is: should I "gamble" with UCC and save money, or play it safe with RCSI?

If for whatever reason, my heart goes out to oncology during clinical rotations, then the "gamble" with UCC would be worth it. I would save money, and likely get matched to the program of choice. However... it can go in the opposite direction.

Also, on a side note, I'd prefer to live in Cork over Dublin.

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[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

If you want to play it safe strengthen your application to go a med school in the US.

If you are going to go against that and choose one of those schools anyways despite what people will stress here, go with RCSI. You're already gambling going abroad, no need to stack the odds against you even further. N=1, I've seen folks from RCSI in programs here (very few, and only in IM and FM) while I haven't run into anyone from UCC. Personally, I wouldn't pay a cent to risk it at these two schools and I actually have close family in Cork.

I want to reiterate this - If you become interested in say oncology, your "gamble" would not be worth it. You will still struggle to match, and you will struggle further to match at a program that historically has people receive an onc fellowship.

The real question is why are you considering those two schools? What is preventing you from getting into a US-MD/DO school? What can you do to remedy the reasons you cant?

 

[maianelson]

If you want to play it safe strengthen your application to go a med school in the US.

If you are going to go against that and choose one of those schools anyways despite what people will stress here, go with RCSI. You're already gambling going abroad, no need to stack the odds against you even further. N=1, I've seen folks from RCSI in programs here (very few, and only in IM and FM) while I haven't run into anyone from UCC. Personally, I wouldn't pay a cent to risk it at these two schools and I actually have close family in Cork.

I want to reiterate this - If you become interested in say oncology, your "gamble" would not be worth it. You will still struggle to match, and you will struggle further to match at a program that historically has people receive an onc fellowship.

The real question is why are you considering those two schools? What is preventing you from getting into a US-MD/DO school? What can you do to remedy the reasons you cant?

Money is a factor. 150-200k on undergrad + 300k on med school is too much. Also, I am sure about medicine. I understand how an undergraduate in life sciences and the consequent research is beneficial for medical school application, but I'm not sure if the time and resources spent on all that are worth it when I have the option of going straight to medical school even if it is abroad.

Besides that, getting into medical school in the US is getting more and more competitive. I know a few people who are applying right now, and every one of them is saying there is no guarantee whatsoever. A lot of them are taking gaps years to strengthen their applications (which, again, is extra time and resources). I'm not necessarily implying that going abroad is the "easy route", it's not. The process will be challenging and incredibly difficult either way. I'm merely considering ways to minimize struggle, and money, where I can.

If the gamble is going abroad and matching into residencies on one side, on the other it would be getting into a US medical school itself.

If as you said, staying in the US seems to be the best course of action if I want flexibility and options, then I would be going to NYU (I do not have much of an option here, long story). And I hesitate to say, but I just don't think NYU is worth it financially, even if it has one of the best pre-med and medical programs.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

Money is a factor. 150-200k on undergrad + 300k on med school is too much. Also, I am sure about medicine, and I understand how an undergraduate in life sciences and the consequent research is beneficial for medical school application, but I'm not sure if the time and resources spent on all that is worth it when I have the option of going straight to medical school even if it is abroad.

That's exactly WHY you should be going to a US MD/DO school. Especially since 75k/yr is more than most med schools here, also you can't use US federal loans (which are forgivable and have a buttload more protections built in) if you go abroad.

EDIT: I just realized you're a high schooler applying to the undergraduate program. So that's 6 years, 75x6 = ~450k. You will not qualify for scholarships over there presumably. There's also a HUGE chance you are not able to become a resident physician in the US. So 450k down the drain.

In the US you can go to a community college or state school (where I am from it was free given my family's income) as a premed, and take it a step at a time. Perhaps you decide to pursue something else, or if you're still intent on medicine you can apply to a much cheaper than 75k/year med school here in the states, also qualify for scholarships, AND have a federal loan that can be forgiven and not have to worry about matching and being a physician.


TL;DR - If you go abroad for a combined undergrad/medschool you will be in more debt, with less protections, and very likely regret your decision.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm from the US and I have been accepted into University College Cork (UCC) and Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RSCI) for the undergraduate medical program. Afterward, I hope to complete my residency in the states.

Have either of these programs given you data on the odds of an NRMP match into a preferred specialty?

 

[maianelson]

That's exactly WHY you should be going to a US MD/DO school. Especially since 75k/yr is more than most med schools here, also you can't use US federal loans (which are forgivable and have a buttload more protections built in) if you go abroad.

EDIT: I just realized you're a high schooler applying to the undergraduate program. So that's 6 years, 75x6 = ~450k. You will not qualify for scholarships over there presumably. There's also a HUGE chance you are not able to become a resident physician in the US. So 450k down the drain.

In the US you can go to a community college or state school (where I am from it was free given my family's income) as a premed, and take it a step at a time. Perhaps you decide to pursue something else, or if you're still intent on medicine you can apply to a much cheaper than 75k/year med school here in the states, also qualify for scholarships, AND have a federal loan that can be forgiven and not have to worry about matching and being a physician.


TL;DR - If you go abroad for a combined undergrad/medschool you will be in more debt, with less protections, and very likely regret your decision.

Sorry, I edited my reply. Please read the rest.

Also, I qualify for the 5-year program at both RCSI and UCC.

 

[maianelson]

Have either of these programs given you data on the odds of an NRMP match into a preferred specialty?

Quite difficult to find on their websites. They only report their match rate percentage. RCSI if I remember correctly is 92% and UCC is 100%. But, this is not useful if we do not know what specialties they matched to.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

Quite difficult to find on their websites. They only report their match rate percentage. RCSI if I remember correctly is 92% and UCC is 100%. But, this is not useful if we do not know what specialties they matched to.

It also isn't useful when it only portrays 1) those who made it to graduation and 2) those who were able to apply to US programs, and ofc 3) as you mentioned, which specialties.

Also you'd have to explain why you'd have to go to NYU, especially if it's going to cost you money. There's Stony Brook, a state school, that is an amazing premed school in NYS. Tuition-Free Degree Program: The Excelsior Scholarship. You can go to any of the CUNY or SUNY schools and be fine for getting into a US MD/DO school if you put the work in.

Staying in the US isn't about "flexibility and options" it's the path to minimize the struggle and finance you're talking about. You're hearing how competitive it is to get into US med schools right? That applies to US residency programs as well. The further you push back the puck, the harder it gets.

 

[gyngyn]

Quite difficult to find on their websites. They only report their match rate percentage. RCSI if I remember correctly is 92% and UCC is 100%. But, this is not useful if we do not know what specialties they matched to.

If this were a good pathway, they would be happy to share all the results.
US residencies have a strong preference for those who have US degrees.

 

[filmfan10]

I'm from the US and I have been accepted into University College Cork (UCC) and Royal College of Surgeons Ireland (RSCI) for the undergraduate medical program. Afterward, I hope to complete my residency in the states. Although I am not sure, I am leaning toward specializing in some type of surgery. Based on match rates and data, going to RCSI would increase my chances of getting into surgery residencies, and in that sense, would also give me more flexibility in choosing my specialty.

UCC seems fairly restricted in this case. Mostly all graduates matched to medicine residencies (i.e. Internal medicine, Family medicine, Pediatrics, etc.), and very few into surgery. So, it seems going through UCC would decrease my options to only the least-competitive specialties.

If I am sure about a specialty, then there are definitely ways (early on research, internships, etc,) in either option, to get matched to my residency of choice. However, I am not sure, and I do not think I will be until clinical rotations. And when that is the case, I suppose having options is better (RCSI). However, RCSI is the most expensive--75K+ USD a year including living costs and the like, whereas, UCC is only 55k+ USD.

So the question is: should I "gamble" with UCC and save money, or play it safe with RCSI?

If for whatever reason, my heart goes out to oncology during clinical rotations, then the "gamble" with UCC would be worth it. I would save money, and likely get matched to the program of choice. However... it can go in the opposite direction.

Also, on a side note, I'd prefer to live in Cork over Dublin.

In my residency, I had a few friends that went Irish medical schools. They were able to match successfully into fellowships.

RCSI has a better track record for residency placements. I think that is the better long-term option. That will keep more doors open for you in the future.

If you are considering surgical specialties, I recommend doing research. I also recommend doing some networking. Strong faculty recommendation letters will greatly help.

I think you are already saving time and money by going directly into medical school. So attending a medical school with a stronger residency placement track record is a better option.

You should keep your options open. You might do clinical rotations and like another specialty

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

In my residency, I had a few friends that went Irish medical schools. They were able to match successfully into fellowships.

RCSI has a better track record for residency placements. I think that is the better long-term option. That will keep more doors open for you in the future.

If you are considering surgical specialties, I recommend doing research. I also recommend doing some networking. Strong faculty recommendation letters will greatly help.

I think you are already saving time and money by going directly into medical school. So attending a medical school with a stronger residency placement track record is a better option.

You should keep your options open. You might do clinical rotations and like another specialty

Going abroad as a US Citizen though is not the path of least resistance. This individual is clearly intelligent to get into these programs in the first place. If they apply that in undergrad they'll be able to go straight to med school and straight to residency without any tribulations.

Can you really sit there an tell someone to go abroad and things will work at just the same when they have the option to stay here? They're only a high schooler. They have so much opportunity to succeed here. This isn't a "last resort" method for them.

 

[maianelson]

In my residency, I had a few friends that went Irish medical schools. They were able to match successfully into fellowships.

RCSI has a better track record for residency placements. I think that is the better long-term option. That will keep more doors open for you in the future.

If you are considering surgical specialties, I recommend doing research. I also recommend doing some networking. Strong faculty recommendation letters will greatly help.

I think you are already saving time and money by going directly into medical school. So attending a medical school with a stronger residency placement track record is a better option.

You should keep your options open. You might do clinical rotations and like another specialty

Thanks for the input. Yes, out of the two, I felt RCSI was a better option in the long run.

Can I ask which specialty fellowships your friends matched to?

 

[Medstart108]

I myself was in similar shoes to you nearly 10 years ago, contemplating going abroad from high school into a 6 year program. SDN told me not to go and warned me about the risks. In hindsight, they were absolutely correct about warning me, the road is tough and uncertain. I went abroad anyways with financial backing from my parents. Despite me not heeding those warnings at the time, I took them to heart and lived my entire life focused with the goal of ultimately finding my way into residency back home. It was stressful because of the uncertainty, feeling somewhat less than as an IMG, but I made it my absolute priority. I worked incredibly hard knowing that I was at a disadvantage. Long story short, I got incredibly lucky, managed to come back home for medical school using the BSc I got there (leaving midway through the program) and matched into a competitive surgical specialty in a strong academic program.

I'm just an anecdote, but looking back, I have seen many people in my shoes go abroad and have less successful careers, and also many who have had very successful careers. The biggest difference I find was individual drive. The people who went abroad looking to go with the flow struggled more than those who were always on top of the next step. Going abroad is not a terrible option, I have seen plenty of people have very successful careers who have studied medicine in UK/Ireland, but they worked for it. Just make sure you go there with two eyes wide open, do research, network, cold-email and you will match. At the end of the day it is all about the individual, I know people who are at RCSI who have developed huge networks and publish papers frequently, there is no chance they won't match.

So go abroad if you want to study medicine right away, and you truly feel you want to become a physician. But, do not go abroad because you think this is an "easier" path. You switch the challenge of getting into medical school in the US for the challenge of matching to residency in the US.

At the time, I was truly worried I wouldn't be able to get into medical school if I had stayed and did a 4 year college degree. With the benefit of hindsight, I clearly would have gotten into medical school and likely done similarly well had I stayed.

From a direct entry vs traditional perspective, the biggest benefit is you will get 2 extra years, which can be used to network/do research if needed to match. From a knowledge perspective, you will have been learning and studying medicine from university, and so you will have an advantage over others in terms of your understanding of medicine. From a cost perspective, you are right that the costs will be similar, so going abroad in and of itself is not significantly greater. However, you do lose the networks you build in the US, and you lose the perspective you gain from having studied something else for 4 years. With that being said, there are always opportunities to build those networks later (i.e. MBA/MPH).

 

[filmfan10]

Going abroad as a US Citizen though is not the path of least resistance. This individual is clearly intelligent to get into these programs in the first place. If they apply that in undergrad they'll be able to go straight to med school and straight to residency without any tribulations.

Can you really sit there an tell someone to go abroad and things will work at just the same when they have the option to stay here? They're only a high schooler. They have so much opportunity to succeed here. This isn't a "last resort" method for them.

I am not telling the OP that going abroad will be easy. If you look at their earlier posts, they admit that going abroad will be difficult. The OP stated that they do not want to spend extra time and money on undergrad.

The OP also has 2 medical school admissions in hand. Their initial question was which school was a better option. That is what I was responding to.

Yes. Going to a US MD/DO school will open more doors.

The OP said the only US school they can attend is NYU. NYU is a great school. However, NYU's medical school has become hyper-competitive. The NYU medical school full tuition scholarship is attracting top students from across the country. It is risky to apply to only one US medical school.

It seems like the OP has decided to attend medical school overseas. They are just down to deciding which school to attend. That is what I was replying to

 

[filmfan10]

Thanks for the input. Yes, out of the two, I felt RCSI was a better option in the long run.

Can I ask which specialty fellowships your friends matched to?

One of my friends matched into Pulmonary/Critical Care. The other friend matched into Cardiology. They did a lot of away rotations to do networking. We were colleagues in Internal Medicine Residency.

I had another friend that matched into Plastic Surgery into a Top 5 program. She did a lot of research though.

As Medstart108 said, the key is research and connections.
The Step 1 is going Pass/Fail. So I think that residencies will focus more on other factors.
For the competitive residencies, research is an important factor

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

I am not telling the OP that going abroad will be easy. If you look at their earlier posts, they admit that going abroad will be difficult. The OP stated that they do not want to spend extra time and money on undergrad.

The OP also has 2 medical school admissions in hand. Their initial question was which school was a better option. That is what I was responding to.

Yes. Going to a US MD/DO school will open more doors.

The OP said the only US school they can attend is NYU. NYU is a great school. However, NYU's medical school has become hyper-competitive. The NYU medical school full tuition scholarship is attracting top students from across the country. It is risky to apply to only one US medical school.

It seems like the OP has decided to attend medical school overseas. They are just down to deciding which school to attend. That is what I was replying to

They said the only school they can attend for undergrad is NYU.

They can attend any medical school. They have an option to stay in the US to do undergrad and then med school they should do it. Statistically it's going to cost them more money and time going abroad.

 

[filmfan10]

Thanks for the input. Yes, out of the two, I felt RCSI was a better option in the long run.

Can I ask which specialty fellowships your friends matched to?

OP, you had mentioned that due to restrictions, you can only attend NYU.

Are you able to attend any US medical school? Or does the medical school have to be NYU.

NYU does have a great premed program and medical school

 

[maianelson]

OP, you had mentioned that due to restrictions, you can only attend NYU.

Are you able to attend any US medical school? Or does the medical school have to be NYU.

NYU does have a great premed program and medical school

I was accepted into NYU pre-med early decision. I could withdraw and attend a state school to save money, but might not be the best idea as it was an early decision acceptance. At least if I go to NYU there may be quite a few networking opportunities and research internships related to the med school, so it could higher my chances to get into it and l could lower the cost that way. Although even then there's no guarantee at all, and its a bit of a financial gamble.

 

[filmfan10]

I was accepted into NYU pre-med early decision. I could withdraw and attend a state school to save money, but might not be the best idea as it was an early decision acceptance. At least if I go to NYU there may be quite a few networking opportunities and research internships related to the med school, so it could higher my chances to get into it and l could lower the cost that way. Although even then there's no guarantee at all, and its a bit of a financial gamble.

Is your NYU early decision binding?
What about other US medical schools after going to NYU premed?
Are you open to going to any medical school in the US after undergraduate?

Most premed applicants have to apply broadly to medical schools. There's so much uncertainty involved in the US medical school admission process. So that's why most premeds apply to many medical schools. When choosing medical schools, it is harder to limit oneself to just one medical school

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

There's so much uncertainty involved in the US medical school admission process.

There's more uncertainty with going abroad and trying to come back for residency.

If OP can get into NYU early decision for undergrad, they can apply that work ethic and intelligence in undergrad and get into a US medical school. If they can't, then they're also someone who'd unlikely be able to match back in the US from a foreign school anyways.

 

[filmfan10]

There's more uncertainty with going abroad and trying to come back for residency.

If OP can get into NYU early decision for undergrad, they can apply that work ethic and intelligence in undergrad and get into a US medical school. If they can't, then they're also someone who'd unlikely be able to match back in the US from a foreign school anyways.

I didn't say there was more certainty with going abroad.
Medical school and Residency applications have become more competitive and unpredictable in the last few years.

I don't know what the OP's situation is regarding medical school. If OP is flexible with going to any US medical school, then that is the best track

 

[maianelson]

Is your NYU early decision binding?
What about other US medical schools after going to NYU premed?
Are you open to going to any medical school in the US after undergraduate?

Most premed applicants have to apply broadly to medical schools. There's so much uncertainty involved in the US medical school admission process. So that's why most premeds apply to many medical schools. When choosing medical schools, it is harder to limit oneself to just one medical school

It is "ethically" binding, not legally.

I would of course apply to other medical schools as well, but the goal would be NYU med school as it is free of tuition. Aiming for NYU med is the only way I feel I can justify spending 348k on my undergrad education. If I don't get in, I don't. But for now, my US options are NYU --> NYU med, or withdrawing from NYU, going to a state school, and aiming for any and all med schools.

As you said earlier, there are ways to get into a residency of choice (I would assume planning ahead takes much importance, only to plan ahead I reckon I'd need to know which specialty I am interested in early on, of which I am currently undecided) in the US from Ireland: networking, extensive research, etc. I believe Ireland would guarantee me less time and money, unlike US schools where the financial aspect is--perhaps for the moment--unpredictable.

Both have their pros and cons, but I do not which is better.

 

[cdpiano27]

It is "ethically" binding, not legally.

I would of course apply to other medical schools as well, but the goal would be NYU med school as it is free of tuition. Aiming for NYU med is the only way I feel I can justify spending 348k on my undergrad education. If I don't get in, I don't. But for now, my US options are NYU --> NYU med, or withdrawing from NYU, going to a state school, and aiming for any and all med schools.

As you said earlier, there are ways to get into a residency of choice (I would assume planning ahead takes much importance, only to plan ahead I reckon I'd need to know which specialty I am interested in early on, of which I am currently undecided) in the US from Ireland: networking, extensive research, etc. I believe Ireland would guarantee me less time and money, unlike US schools where the financial aspect is--perhaps for the moment--unpredictable.

Both have their pros and cons, but I do not which is better.

What about Italian medical schools? The public medical schools are quite cheap, and Humanitas which is private is still much lower than any Irish medical school. There is an IMAT entrance test for the public schools. There are English programs in most schools. And here are the tuition per year (even with 6 years out of high school), it is a much cheaper option than anywhere else in Europe not being considered a local student. Why Studying Medicine in Italy is a Top Choice - Medlink Students shows you the tuition per year at most of the public and private schools. And you are licensed to practise in EU.