UCD 2003 graduating class: destinations

[roo]

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UCD 2003 class was through with study on May 1.

There were some American and Canadian students in the class. Here is a rundown of destinations. All were taking the 5 year course unless noted (then they were in the 6 year course). This is not official or anything, it is just from talking with friends, since obviously the topic of the day back in March is where you are going.

Note that this is the last year that prematches were available. These are noted in brackets. From a candidate's point of view, I can see it brings security and relief, but prematches sort of bug me in a way from the program's point of view if they include prematchable ones with the regular ones: for example advertise 5 positions, but 4 are gone by the time the candidate gets there as one of his interviews (and there is a finite number of interviews that can be gone to). Anyways, no more prematches in 2004.

Some comments in brackets for their decisions are included where I remember them.

Americans:
-------------

Chicago (I think) - Peds (think that she was from Chicago).

New York - Urology [six year program] (he loved Urology with a passion. Diff'rent strokes I guess. Urology has their own kind of match than most of the other specialities: you find out earlier. From New York.)

New York - Med/Peds.

??? - Internal medicine (I think).

??? - Internal medicine (I think) [prematch].

Harvard/Beth Israel in Boston - Anesthesia.

New York (Beth Israel- I remember that one since I thought that Beth Israel was in Boston only, but it apparently isn't) - Emergency Medicine.

New York (Peds) (From NY. Residency is close to her house actually.)

One guy is taking a year vacation travel between graduation and starting residency. Board scores are pretty good (>90) so shouldn't be quite straightforward.

Boston - ??? [six year program] [prematch]

AWOL:
- One guy transferred between preclinical and clinical years to a US medschool. Personally, I find this very annoying (unless there was some *extreme* personal circumstances that wasn't known, like a sick parent at home). There is a ton of people that want to come to study in Ireland that are denied the chance, and if you don't want to come, don't come and let someone else who does. There is now an empty slot where that other person could have trained. The only karma in life is that this transfer is part of this AWOLer's transcript when it comes time for residency and unless there is a good reason (sick mother, etc), a good slice of residency directors will pause and think/ask "You must have said when you were applying that you were passionate about going to Ireland and then you left part way through the five years. You are now in that chair telling me how you want to be part of my residency for four years. Are you telling the truth this time, or will you leave my residents short-handed a few years into your residency as you go somewhere else?)

Class of 2004:

3 guys will graduate next year:

- One took a year away to get married so will graduate next year (currently leaning towards Obs/Gyn or FP). His wife will be moving to Ireland and living with him next year.

- One opted to repeat his first year since he felt he was getting to far behind to get a good foundation (was a mature student who was working and then had to transition into full time academics and then was still working near full time at a job during first year. Though a student is legally allowed 25 hours (and more under the table), I really don't recommend working during the academic term, instead taking loans if at all possible).

-One guy unfortunately got screwed for a year. Had to resit one of the preclinical exams (I think physiology) and the extern [external examiner--professors not from the college that wander around all the schools to ensure that everyone is on the same playing field] asked him questions outside of what is required to learn (I think it was a list of memorized standard values of body parameters) and he had to repeat the course, so had to graduate one year later. This I think was unreasonable. Especially on a pass/fail oral, and the extern's job is be sure that things are fair, I think that extern dropped the ball there.

Canadians:
--------------

Bufflalo, NY, USA (forget the hospital) - Peds (close to his family in Toronto)

Mayo Minnesota, USA - Internal Medicine (couple match)

Gisinger (spelling?), Pennsylvania, USA -

Med/Peds (had a kid, wanted place to raise family out of city) [Prematch]

Memorial University Newfoundland, Rural Family Medicine (best rural family med program in Canada)

New York, General Surgery (likes NY, a city-oriented big lights kind of girl)

Ireland (Irish girlfriend who is also doing her internship in Ireland).

Mayo Minnesota, USA - Anesthetics (couple match)

Ireland (Writing his Step 3, and apply in Fall so he can go do H1B instead of J1 to USA all the other Canadians and Irish going to USA are just on J1 and have to return to own country for 2 years at end of residency. He wants to go permanently.)

Memorial University Newfoundland - Psyche (was a native of Newfoundland).


Hope that is helpful. Residency spots were actually pretty straightforward altogether--directors, faculties, staff seemed to like the Irish guys and gals. Though looking at the alot of the destinations, that is a pretty Irish itinerary (Boston, Newfoundland, New York, Mayo, Chicago). The most likely [in my opinion] is that is because the program has had more Irish experience in the past, so in fairness they are better versed in exactly what they are getting (Faculty guy at interview: I see you are from Ireland. Our pneumologist in [some other department] Dr. O'Rourke was from UCC (or was it UCD?). Candidate: And what did you think of his capability. Was he a good doctor to have on the team? Faculty guy: Oh yes, he was excellent.)

Best wishes,
roo

 

[mick2003]

Hi Roo,

If I could add/clarify a few in regards to the Americans

Boston:
- 2 at St. Elizabeth's for IM
- The Harvard anaesthesia program was Brigham and Women's not Beth Isreal.
- 1 Prelim medicine post at the Lahey Clinic (Burlington)
- Of interest, there is also a 2002 grad doing anaesthesia at NEMC

North Carolina:
- 1 at Duke for IM
- 1 at CMC for paeds

Everything else looks spot on to me.

I concur in regards to your comments about the Program Directors acceptance of Irish grads. I heard more than once during my interviews
PD: "we don't interview FMG's"
Me: "but I'm an FMG"
PD: " well, yeah, but your Irish"

Best,
Mick

 

[sporter1992a]

Hello Roo/Mick,

Thanks for this info.

Can you please clarify -- if you don't have step3, you can't get the h1b visa? Are there no Canadians that attain the h1b visa prior to writing step3?

I guess what I'm asking is, is it possible for a Canadian to get a USA residency after 5 years in Ireland *and* also get an H1B VISA?

thanks,
SP.

 

[roo]

Hi Mick,
Yes thanks for the updates. When I was thinking, there was three more appendums:

Canadian:
------------
Manitoba? (somewhere western, she was from British Columbia) - Family medicine.

American:
------------

Virginia - Peds (from Virginia).

Miami - Family medicine (Brother in Florida, and likes the beach).

For sporter:
--------------

The Canadians options are:
- Go to Canada as soon as you graduate. Residency there, work there, perhaps visit USA later on maybe depending on speciality. Note only Canadian citizens/landed immigrants can apply in the Canadian match by law.
- Go to USA on a J1 (student) visa as soon as you graduate.
- Go to USA on a H1B (work) visa, one year after you graduate. You can do an internship for a year in Ireland while you are waiting around (pays about 50K euro, and as of this year there is a workhour-restriction that was pretty low--50 hours?)

Note that in the 2003 UCD class, there were some students that chose the first option above, some that chose the second, and one that chose the third.

You aren't allowed to write Step 3 until you graduate medical school, and you can't apply for an H1B visa until you write Step 3. The schedule for example is this:

September 2002: Match cycle starts.

November 2002: Write the Canadian evaluating exam (you need this for either Canadian match or a J1 visa). Note that this November 2002 was the first year that you could write the evaluating examination before finishing school. Up until that point, you had to graduate first before you could sit it, and since you need it for both Canadian match and J1, that meant losing a year. Of course the Canadian students in Dublin thought that was just nuts, so they talked to the powers-that-be in charge of that exam. The Canadian officials came to Dublin to talk it over with the deans at UCD/TCD/RCSI and they said okay, so now you can write in in the November of your final year instead of after graduation. Every UCD Canadian student passed this exam (and it was a high pass rate, though this exam is geared towards practising doctors, not students, so it is difficult enough). Worse though was the timing: smack dab in the middle of the Peds/Obs/Psyche finals [nicely though, the UCD dean was able to get the exams office to change the exam date since one of the Peds/Obs/Psyche was the exact same day as the Canadian exam was being held].

Dec-Jan 2002: Interview trail.

March 2003: Match results. You find out where you go. (then you get a work offer, and you take that work offer to a province, saying you need a letter of need for that specialty so you get a J1).

May 2003: Finish school.

June 2003: Start residency.


So if you are planning to apply on a H1B as part of your application, you can't apply to say you have an H1B visa since you can't possibly have one until you have already graduated, which means the next residency cycle.

In theory, there is a gap between graduation on May 1, and starting work on June 24 in which to write a Step 3 exam, but the logistics don't work since there is too long of lag times for the various document verifications, etc. This has been researched by the Canadians, it doesn't seem to work. In addition it was also a requirement that you be fully licensed to work as a doctor in your country of training first (and in Ireland, that means 1 year of internship before you are a doctor let out on the world on your own).

Perhaps you could avoid the H1B extra-year, if the immigration office said you didn't need the internship year in Ireland to be fully qualified in that country, *and* you cut a deal with a program, to say, hold a spot for you until you start in August when you have graduated, gotten all the things together to write the Step 3 and H1B visa application and then could start. Cutting deals to hold a spot for you ahead of time though is unlikely after this year, since as of 2004, programs cannot sign people outside the match for their advertised spots (though I'll wager that some programs will split their spots into advertised match spots, and sign-outside-the-match spots, which is fair enough).

Or you could just get the list of unmatched positions from one of your friends going through the match, and go around in the summertime post-graduation asking if you could take their empty slot, and start to work for them in the summer and then finish the residency a few months later too [most would be happy to do so, since an empty slot means more work for others, and possible program funding loss later on].

But looking at H1B vs. J1, J1 is pretty competitive from the candidate's viewpoint. You will most likely have to waste 1 year at low salary for an H1B, vs. spending 2 years in Canada when you finish residency on a J1 (with those 2 years being at full salary). Or you can just do a fellowship at one of the Canadian universities for those 2 years instead of working. H1B is a lot of heavy lifting, J1 is a breeze. The residency programs that you get to pick from on J1 are also likely a better selection than H1B, since H1B is alot of extra work for the program director also: good programs have a lot of competitive applicants: some will just thin their list of applicants by tossing out all the H1Bs.

There are some other rare interesting dynamics also with regard to the fact that so many people will start work around where they did residency. If it is problem getting doctors into that area for that specialty, they don't take J1's since they will be leaving that area after they graduate. Conversely if there is too many doctors in that field in that area, the people interviewing you (who are also in that field, most likely) may prefer a J1 to a H1B or US citizen, since then there can't be yet another new specialist in that area opening up shop down the road, taking away even more of their business. Like I say though, these are rare. Usually the program director just has two piles: the I-don't-have-to-do-anything main pile of US citizens and J1 visas, and the I-have-to-do-extra-legwork small pile of H1B visas.

As a final note there is a J1-waiver (you start on a J1, but then just don't have to leave), but that is extremely difficult to get and to maintain [which is very fair in my opinion: if someone says to the USA that they am only there to learn as a student, who will leave when they are done so that they don't take a job from a US citizen, and all of a sudden they want to break the rules that they signed up for, then they better have a pretty good (and rare) reason for doing so].

That said, I am not a lawyer, and certainly not an immigration lawyer. If you want to play with H1Bs and J1-waivers in the USA, then I recommend hiring an immigration lawyer when you enter medical school, as it is financially viable for the legal fees considering your future renumeration.

Best wishes,
roo

 

[sporter1992a]

Thanks for taking the time to write all that!

When you say that the "Canadian officials came to Dublin...so now you can write in in the November", does that include the people at Cork? I'm heading off to UCC this sept.

Also, are the Canadians going to the USA with J1's planning on coming back to Canada?

Just wanted to note that IMGs/FMGs applying to Canada can only match in the 2nd round, so basically, can only take the leftovers.

Thanks,
SP.

 

[roo]

Hi Sporter,

No problem. In exchange though, if someone asks similar questions, point them to this thread if their questions are similar.

With regard to your questions:

-Yes, all Canadians can now write in November of final year, not just ones in Dublin. And it's not just Ireland, it is everywhere [which is fair]. There is also one in the February of final year, but since match things are in March, that is cutting things too close, as it will likely not be marked in time, so everyone pretty much opts for the November one. Most write it in London England since it is a short flight from Ireland, though one girl went to Paris. Candidates usually fly the night before, stay in a local hotel, then get up the next day, show their passports and write the full day pencil-and-paper multiple choice exam. There is practice ones on the relevant website. After 5 years in Ireland, the test is straightforward for pretty much all candidates.

All the Canadians going to USA on J1 are planning coming back for their 2 years at least. That is what they signed up for. Some are then planning to go back to USA (since they will get out of debt quicker), whereas some want to work in Canada instead and be close to family, etc.

In Canada candidates match in the 2nd round, and in USA candidates match in the 1st round. And for some Canadian candidates, just the premise of that makes them only consider the USA. However, the people designing the Canadian match planned their timetable around the USA one, something that becomes apparent when you compare the two match timetables side-by-side. There is a first iteration match for Canada, then there is the rank-list deadline for USA, then there is a second iteration match for Canada. So there is a window of a few days in which a candidate can look to see if there is how many Canadian places are available in their field that they would like to go to, if there is none, then submit the USA rank-list. If there is many, then don't submit the USA rank-list and enter the Canada second iteration. You can look over the second iteration places for each year at the CaRMS website (www.carms.ca) to get a rough idea. They do a good job of archiving their graphs, though unfortunately there is no "country" bar graph to see how many Irish, [even though they would have that info, they don't share it publically, since perhaps it may look pretty damaging (hmmm...25 student applicants from Ireland and 20 were accepted to residency, whereas there was 250 fully licensed doctor applicants from Pakistan and only 11 were accepted. This would look pretty bad on paper. Note that this may or may not be the case for the numbers, but unless they publish the data, I don't know either way.] The specialities follow pretty much the same numbers game as the USA: some residencies like family medicine need alot of people in the field, whereas others like urology don't need very many--some differences occur though between countries, for example there is often a radiation oncology spot or two in Canada. I think the numbers of Canadians (both trained in Canada and in Ireland) staying in Canada in 2003 was slightly higher than most years because of the Iraq war in the USA right smack dab in the middle of the interview/rank season (the war would have been unpopular with some Canadian candidates choosing between USA and Canada), but the numbers for that aren't published by CaRMS, so that is left to conjecture only. As a further black-eye to Canada vs. USA, Canada induces more provincial restrictions versus USA: In USA, California is a pain, whereas in Canada: Need to have been a resident from BC or Quebec to apply for a residency there, Ontario is absolute no-go for training because of there extra test and 9 months of unpaid training before starting
(though apparently 2004 is going to see that changed since Ontario just cannot compete with other provinces and the USA with extra stuff like that), and Alberta needs the Part I of the MCC written (which can be done, but is painful, since there is already enough stuff to do in final year without writing part one of the MCC, so Alberta usually loses out on candidates to other provinces and the USA).

All told, for you as a candidate starting, I recommend crossing the t's and dotting the i's for either USA or Canada residency (taking each country's exams, doing some electives in each, looking at the applications and programs), then looking to see which country has the better deal for you and your field when final year comes, as 5-6 years may be a different scenario than the current playing field.

As an interesting aside, when public health care was initiated in Canada (Sask began it first), there was a need then for doctors to fill the need. The big place where they came from was Ireland (since back then Ireland wasn't the economic powerhouse of the last few decades, so an offer to move to Canada to practise was a pretty good job offer). It is interesting grainy black-and-white footage to see all those Irish doctors waving as they get off their newly landed plane to treat the suffering people in the prairies of Canada.

Best wishes,
roo

 

[sporter1992a]

another great post roo!

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, what are your plans? where are you headed? Are you by any chance a Canadian? You seem to know a lot about the healthcare system (most Americans don't know that medicare in Canada started in Sask!)

Also, regarding electives, how difficult is it to schedule them outside of Ireland? I heard that some of the Dublin schools have relationships with some US schools, but I don't know about Cork.

Thanks,
SP.

 

[JaneGKT]

Roo/Mick,

Thanks for taking the time to post this information - it gives me a little hope!....but all of the extra exams/applications/timing problems seem daunting.

I'm Canadian and a first year med student at Guy's/King's/StThomas' School of Medicine in London...as far as I know, I'm the only Canadian, though I believe that another Canadian will be starting in Sept 2003😛 ....I would like to think that my hard work and positive attitude influenced the dean's decision to extend offers to other Canadians....perhaps the London med schools will initiate a programme similar to "Atlantic Bridge"!

I have been exploring the possibilities for returning to Toronto for residency upon graduation...The odds are slim to none. The Ontario IMG Program is an ABSOLUTE JOKE! My partner is a corporate lawyer and in order for us to pursue our careers we have to live in a financial centre ie. Toronto, NYC, Boston, SanFran, etc....and we want to be close to our families in/around Toronto. CaRMS second iteration match???? No wonder most of the Canadian Irish IMGs are going to the US. Hopefully Canada/Ontario will get its act together before I graduate.

I'm glad to hear that PDs have a positive response to Irish IMGs...and that some don't even consider you "IMGs". I'm hoping that the same applies for UK IMGs. GKT has had a long-standing relationship with Johns Hopkins - I believe there is an exchange programme in place which allows up to 20 GKT students per year to do electives at Johns Hopkins and there are also spots available at Harvard, Cornell and various other US teaching facilities. I'm planning to do as many electives as possible in the US and Toronto.....I still find it hard to believe that Irish/UK/Australian IMGs are technically considered to be in the same pool as Caribbean/Eastern European/African "degree mill" IMGs....I just need reassurance that this is not the case.

What has the Atlantic Bridge Programme done for Canadians at the Irish schools? Has the been any lobbying done on behalf of Canadian students to CaRMS, the Ontario Government/Ontario IMG Programme, the federal government? If so, what is the scoop? If not, I think that the Canadians should be pushing hard for the Atlantic Bridge Programme to be paving the way for Canadians to return to Ontario - especially when charging overseas tuition rates.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, Ireland is a beautiful country! I'm sure the extra hard work is worth the life-enhancing aspects of living abroad!

Thanks,

Jane

 

[DesOMalley]

The Atlantic Bridge Program and the Deans of the Irish medical schools have tried to negotiate "easy access" to Canada for their Canadian medical graduates in recent years. They were well on their way to achieving it when someone (I believe it was one of the Caribbean schools) initiated a lawsuit which claimed that, under the system that was being devised Canadian graduates of Irish medical schools would have an "unlawful" advantage over other FMGs when returning to Canada. Therefore, the plan was necessarily scrapped.

Des

 

[sporter1992a]

Hi Des,

Seems wierd to me that the Carib schools could claim an "unlawful" advantage. I wonder if Irish grads could also claim the same thing to American grads returning to Canada. Some Canadian provinces will take LCME (ie: any Canada/USA school) grads in the first round of the residency match.

The problem seems so simple to solve: get the Irish schools LCME approved! I guess I have a special interest in this since I'm heading to UCC this september.

Just some thoughts.

SP.

 

[JaneGKT]

Des,

That is really unfortunate. Too bad that the Atlantic Bridge Programme and the Irish Schools couldn't do more. It is really not fair at all.

I still think that the Schools and Licensing Bodies in Ireland/UK etc. should continue to lobby for some sort of meaningful/sensible reciprocal treatment policy. I think the main rationale for the Canadian government implementing the brightline test (ie. Canadian and US MGs are acceptable and all other IMGs are not) was that the government didn't want to spend the time/money to ensure that the medical education & accreditation provided by various foreign jurisdictions (from Andorra to Zimbabwe and everywhere in between) was of a standard acceptable to Canada. Assuming that the case was made for UK/Ireland/Australia, it would be possible for graduates to enter the first iteration of the Match...or at least have some type of separate "fast track" into Canadian residency. It seems totally illogical to me that UK/Irish/Australian doctors used to be considered on par with Canadian trained docs and now they are not.

Nothing will happen unless Canadians at UK/Irish/Australian med schools make some serious noise at their schools and to the relevant licensing bodies in Canada.

I read a report submitted to the Canadian Taskforce on International Medical Graduate Licensure by the Canadian Federation of Medical Students ("CFMS") (dated March 20, 2003). The CFMS takes the view that the first iteration of the CaRMS should be reserved for Canadian med school graduates only. Of course they want to preserve their turf....the arguments put forward in the report were quite weak and not well thought out, still, the CFMS has some standing/influence and will continue to do everything possible to ensure that Canadian IMGs are not given equal/fair treatment.

Personally, I'm at a loss as to how to approach lobbying for fair treatment of UK/Irish/etc IMGs. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Enough ranting for tonight.

Jane

 

[JaneGKT]

Too bad I don't get paid by the word....I was attempting to articulate what Sporter said....note to self - practise being concise.🙄

Jane

 

[UofA man]

I think Jane makes a good point, if enough of US from the Irisk/UK/Australian schools work together we may get things changed for the future. However I am at a loss for what steps to take. If anybody has any good ideas please share.

 

[leorl]

Possibly the first step to take would be organizing a meeting and getting the word out for all US and Canadian IMGs to attend, as well as Irish or Irish-trained people interested in practicing in the US/Canada. Easier said than done, but perhaps have a central group of people to publicize, collect addresses, etc. Once there's a sort of database, send mailings out informing people of the situation to anyone. I don't even know the limitations we have or the legal aspect of it...pamphlets, brochures, etc. just to get the information about unfairness out there. At the initial meeting, highlight the difficulties people face in trying to get back into Canadian practice, and illustrating inequalities.

Then it'd be time to start lobbying - to the canadian minister of health and authoriies of the health bodies.

maybe at future meetings, get Canadian legislators over to explain their points of view and hear ours.

Monumentous task.

 

[The Pill Counter]

For starters, they will never allow foreign grads into the first iteration of the match. Even if all barriers were removed at the provincial level, you would have to be content with FP/OBGYN/Psych/Path. The training positions are just not abundant enough to allow FMG's to sneak into a good spot the way it's done in the US.
Regarding UK/Eire/Aus recognition, the RCPSC recognises training from these countries and Ministries of Health are more than welcoming of fully-trainied doctors from these areas. On the RCPSC website is detailed training requirements for all specialties, so if you or I or the newly-Irish train where we currently are, we could theoretically go back to Canada and have our training assessed. As long as all training requirements were fulfilled or subsequently fulfilled, we could be admitted into the RCPSC examination within six months.
Unless you want to do FP or psych, there are no guarantees in Canada, and even still, not where you might want to be (Ontario is totally off-limits until you get into their ******ed OIMG program and complete a year of pseudo-med school)
Better still, go to the States, most choices of specialties are within your reach, complete the program, sit the FRCPSC exam and go home.
Don't count on Ontario changing its act Jane, just focus on NYC, you'll have plenty of opportunities there.

 

[JaneGKT]

Yes, I'm thinking that skipping Canada altogether might be the best option, but I would rather return to the GTA for family reasons. I was hoping to be able to return to Ontario immediately following graduation from GKT as 7-8 years away from home is long enough (I moved to London before deciding to go to med school). At the time, I really didn't think that returning to Ontario from a decent foreign med school would be so difficult...my family doc in Toronto graduated from one of the Dublin med schools and is a prof at UofT.

I find it really puzzling that the Ontario Govt only allows FMGs to practise in underserviced regions or practice areas....I know that there is recognition of specialists from UK/Ireland/Australia....but what about Ontario licensure.....are UK/Australian/Irish specialists still subject to the Ontario IMG Programme and the restrictions on practise?

Also, I thought that I read somewhere that a Canadian FMG who obtains a US residency will still not be accepted in Ontario????

Are you aware of any Irish/Australian MGs who have returned to Ontario for residency through the Ont IMG Programme?

Jane

 

[DesOMalley]

Good post, Leorl!

It is not the responsibility of the Irish universities to do the lobbying. It is up to the Canadian students who are attending/graduating from Irish medical schools to do it. They are citizens of Canada, their families pay taxes in Canada and they have well-paid, elected representatives whose job is to lobby on their behalf.

If all the Canadian medical students in Ireland would organize themselves they COULD apply enough pressure so that the necessary changes could be made to the system. But nobody will take the inititiative.

They could start with a letter-writing campaign to the various medical bodies in Canada, to their elected representatives, the Minister for Health, etc. Then, follow up with personal visits from individual students and even groups of students who are studying medicine in Ireland, etc., etc., etc. If it's done in an organized and PERSISTENT fashion things will change. If many, many students persistently hound the appropriate people with letters, emails, phone calls, visits, meetings, etc. changes will be made.

You have to hand it to the Irish though. They did try their best. Despite the fact that they have/had no obligation to make life easier for Canadians, they went to bat for them with the Canadian authorities. I might add that the UK schools did NOTHING to help.

Des

 

[The Pill Counter]

I think the previous poster was referring to Atlantic Bridge as an entity and what it can do, not what the Universities themselves have done for Canadians. And Des I don't think you have a clue what has been going on. In fact a Cork student set up a website a while ago: IMG Website Give it a read, learn the issues. It's not a question of someone taking the 'initiative' It's much more complicated than that.
The largest problem is that Health is a provincial matter and they are going to run it however they see fit. I was contacted by the Ministry of Health of Newfoundland and offered electives et al. You would have opportunites to do family practice or psych there immediately after graduation, but Ontario is another matter altogether. Universities in Ontario are not allowed to offer remaining residency spots to foreign grads as the Ministry requires the OIMG. It's an artificial argument, as they will say the funding is not there. But, if Canadian applicants flooded Ontario schools and there was a 100% fill rate for all residency spots, the Ministry would happily shell out the funding for all positions. But when it comes to foreign grads, they refuse to fund them for any position- hence the OIMG, where they ask 1000 people to put their life on hold, beg them for a spot among 50, and have the wonderful privilege of paying them 5000 grand to re-do the final year of medicine. Finally, you may enter the second iteration and take up your spot in family medicine or psych or OBGYN. Did I say that you continue to pay $5000 a year tuition for all years of your residency?
Finally, regarding the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario. If you trained in the States and wrote the appropriate FRCPSC exam, you still may not get an unrestricted license. You would have completed all requirements except having trained or practiced at least 1 year in Canada. Now this is a requirement no other province has- this is there way of giving you a final f**k you after your long arduous journey. What did the college say when I called? Go practice in another province for a year and then come to Ontario. Obviously they don't care if you have to move a family, practice what not, they just don't care.
Here's my advice Jane - forget it, move on. I've looked at it from all angles and it's a waste of time, unless something groundbreaking happens over the next couple of years.

 

[Isabella]

I think that as IMG?s we are all in the same boat and that we should all stick together. I think that it is silly to further sub-classify the IMG pot by Irish/Aussie/Uk vs Carib/Eastern European etc? Face the facts, the majority (and that is a big majority) did not get into our home university medical schools. We are all trying to follow our dreams and these classification systems are ridiculous and an immature way of thinking.
I was accepted to both an Irish school and St. George?s and after careful thought and consideration I opted for SGU, since it follows a more North American way of teaching than the Irish schools. It is frustrating and irritating for all of us, especially Canadians to want to come back to Canada. SGU is doing the exact same lobbying that the Irish schools are doing. Maybe if we were all a little bit more mature and thought in terms of all IMG?s fighting for the possibility to come back to Canada, something can be done.
As for coming back to Ontario, when I spoke with the Canadian IMG office, they informed me that it does not matter where you went to school, as long as it is listed in the WHO directory. It basically comes down to how you do on the standardized exams and this is partly the schools responsibility but mostly the individuals responsibility and hard work.

 

[JaneGKT]

Pill,

Thanks for your posts. I understand what you are saying and fully agree with your presentation of the current reality in Ontario....it is truly a *****ic situation....frankly, I don't know how the Ontario government can be so inept....I agree that at this point I shoud just give up on Canada and focus on NYC, Boston, etc. I will make sure that I stay focussed on keeping my options open in the US.

I don't profess to know all of the issues...I still have five years to go at GKT and I have much more research to do with respect to residency, electives etc.

I can imagine that quite a few of the physicians anxious to obtain licensure in Ontario (or other provinces) are individuals from various countries (A) who cannot speak English properly and/or (B) do not have the requisite skill set to practise medicine in Canada (because they have not been exposed to adequate/cutting edge technology, etc. or come from a country where (for cultural/religious reasons) they have no experience dealing with patients of the opposite sex, etc.) or (C) other reasons (ie have not practised medicine for many years and are "out of touch"...or graduated from a "degree mill" med school in the Carribean, Poland, etc) in my opinion, these physicians should NOT be granted licensure ....BUT I believe that Canadians with degrees from certain foreign med schools (ie UK/Ireland/Australia etc) SHOULD receive preferential treatment and our return to Canada (and Ontario) for residency or independent practise should be encouraged and facilitated (not road blocked at every turn).....personally, I find the Ontario process unacceptable and I am INSULTED that the Ontario Programme would require me to pass the TOEFL test......it's called the "Test Of English as a Foreign Language". I made it through Kindergarten through UofT in Ontario.....and I'm expected to take the TOEFL? Is the Ontario government implying that it cannot adequately teach its residents English???? As you pretty much say, the Ontario IMG Programme is a blatant measure to discourage FMGs from practising in Ontario....and you're right - the crux of the problem is that there isn't even enough funding for Canadian MGs and the health care system. (As an aside, my grandmother has been in East Toronto General Hospital waiting for a routine angioplasty for neary 30 DAYS!!!!! ....she will have to be moved to Toronto General because the East Toronto General is not equipped for this routine procedure....what a mess. God help those outside of the GTA.... my mother-in-law had a heart attack in rural Michigan 6 years ago, received TPA within minutes of admittance to the ER of a very small community hospital, and had an angioplasty at the same hospital within days of her heart attack.....HMOs can be evil but there are definite benefits.)

Yes Pill, this just strengthens your argument to just skip Canada and move to the US...but dammit, I'm a Canadian citizen, my family pays taxes and I should have the opportunity to return should I decide to do so (assuming I deserve to based on merit). It's a matter of principal and I am willing to fight for this because it is wrong and should be rectified.

I still stand by the assertion that the Atlantic Bridge Programme / Irish Schools should be advocating strongly for facilitating the return of Canadian grads to Canada....the Programme can't honestly expect many Canadian students to remain in Ireland with a foreign student debt load....if the plan was to encourage Canadian grads to remain and practice in Ireland, there would be a repayment of the difference in tuition for Canadian grads who decided to remain in Ireland (don't know...maybe this IS the case...if so, I stand corrected)....if not, it is a blatant money grab and the Atlantic Bridge Programme SHOULD do something for Canadian grads with respect to Canadian/Ontario residency. UK schools are in a bit of a different situation because they have not been actively recruitng North American students.....I'm still going to speak to the admin and see if anything can be done.

I know that it is perhaps a futile cause, but if other Canadians at UK/Irish/Australian med schools are interested in effecting change in ONTARIO, I am definitely interested in continuing the dialogue and working together to voice our collective concerns to the appropriate regulatory/governmental bodies in Ontario. Maybe something can be done in five years....if we don't try things will never change.

Jane

 

[poly]

Jane,

A few points:

1. What the Ontario government is doing is not necessary inept. If you really look at it deeper, I think you may find that they are actually very good at limiting IMGs.

2. Graduates from your "degree mill" are good enough to pass to get ECFMG certification and licensed in USA and yet not good enough to get a license in Canada? Even when they can pass all the LMCC requirements? Is there something else I do not know about?

3. And what is so special about UK/Ireland/Australia that they need preferential treatment?



p.

 

[Isabella]

Jane,
I admire your persistance, but don't think that you or the UK/Irish/Aussie/whatever fellow grads are the only ones that require this "special consideration'. I think that if you want to be a doctor, or at least a good doctor, learn to open up your mind a bit more. I think that all IMG's should fight for this cause. You are not the only one who went through the Canadian system, were qualified enough, but got rejection letters.

 

[TObabe]

I totally agree with Poly and Isabella- people like Jane need to grow up a bit. Who made you Ms. Godess of the IMG's. Do you know anything about other schools other than what you have been fed. Why are you so insistent on only certain schools being part of this 'revolution' of yours. Nothing is ever going to change with that attitude.

 

[The Pill Counter]

Truth be told, a lot of the powers that be, whether in the OMA, CPSO, or the Ministry of Health have said as much that they prefer the UK/Eire/Aus/NZ/S.African grads. Obviously, the cries of racism and bigotry will be loud and long, so a uniformly difficult entry to practice has been the norm for sometime.
A lot of the reasons these countries are prefered is, firstly the language, secondly a similar ethnic and cultural heritage, and lastly a long record of their doctors performing well in the Canadian system. Now before people flame me, let me say I'm a visible minority, but I can understand some of these prejudices, though some are unfounded and some are justifiable.
The RCPSC has evaluated the aforementioned countries training programs and has deemed their training acceptable. It also has listed Belgium and Pakistan as having been evaluated and denied. Other countries have not been thoroughly enough evaluated for them to come to a judgment yet.
In terms of training positions, the Canadian population and health system just can't support a significant number of residencies above the number of graduating medical students the way the USA can. So, regardless of the rules or restrictions, there will never be enough opportunities to train all FMGs in Canada regardless of their perceived qualities.
However, besides cries of racism and unfairness, there is nothing stopping the provinces from implementing rules for graduates of certain countries and fund a paltry number of residency positions for their Canadian graduates. The same way McGill University has an American quota above and beyond those who compete in the 1st iteration. But would it ever happen? Doubtful..

 

[sporter1992a]

Personally, I think a better system would be to evaluate schools individually rather than saying country "x" has acceptable schools, and country "y" doesn't. I do agree with Jane on the notion of degree mill's. Come on folks, you must realize that there are some really crappy schools out there.

What really frustrates me is the exclusionary environment that Ontario creates. Even if you did a full residency at a top US program, or another Canadian province, you still have to jump through all the hoops to get back into Ontario, and even with all this, you will end up with a limited licence to practise medicine up in North Bay.

 

[pattycanuck]

Just wanted to know that as there are a few of us here, are there an updates on who's doing what now? Who's finishing and making big dineros 😀

As per the original post, I am the Canadian that stayed in Ireland and now married to one of our Irish classmates - now updated ... both back in Canada doing FM.

I am headed to one of our classmate's wedding in Vancouver later this week - the one that finished at Manitoba FM.