UCLA vs Princeton for premed

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Still-Learning

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Please help. My son( a high school senior from competitive public high school) got accepted to UCLA with Scholarship and cal-grant, which mean almost free ride(SAT2300 and 14AP all As and many ECs). Just found out yesterday he also got accepted to Princeton and wait list at Harvard.
We are not wealthy. We are from California. He has never been away from me, a very caring mother. He plan to go to Medical School later. Need advice please. I am so new to all this. I did not go to school here in the US . I am from Australia.Thank you all in advance. I read SDN and know you guys are great help.

So here's the situation: he does not feel he will be above average kids in terms of GPA if he goes to Princeton. Princeton is new to him, the community and everything. New territory. Princeton Financial Aid not as good as UCLA. Princeton cost $12,000 per year from parents and $3,000 work study. On the plus side, Princeton will have commitee letters of recommendation when applying for med school and Health profession Advisesr available to help prepare for med school applications( I did some research) and get to know professors more. And may be class discussions (which he enjoy while at high school). And he may grow academically, personally, and professionally. New territory can stretch Simba more as in the Lion King.
At UCLA, he is top 1.5% of applicant(hence the scholarship) and invited to apply for honour program. (Also got regent scholarship from UCSD, UCD and UCI but he's only thinking of either UCLA or Princeton). He does not think he is smart but achieved through study hard.The plus sides, he already knows and feel comfortable about three clubs that he will join and may run for vice president or chair or president and involve with with outreach community services while joining those three clubs and meet great people whom he feel comfortable there. Great weather, award winning foods added to the pluses. UCLA med school have full scholarship for approx. 30 med student( I know this is 4 years from now).

Will it be easier to be accepted to any UC Medical School in CA after graduating from Princeton?

So another question is if he goes to Princeton, will he be consider CA residence and pay the in-state tuition when applying for UC Medical School 4 years from now?

Sorry about the long writing. Thank s again.
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Full-ride. Doesn't want to be away from friends and family. Wants to avoid a low GPA at a notorious grade-deflating school.

No brainer. He should choose UCLA (a very good school) and thrive there. It makes things much easier when applying to UC medical schools in the future.
 
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Is he sure about pre-med? Many people who think they are premed in HS end up finding something else interesting.

Princeton is hard on the GPA (although I think they recently revised their grading policy). Princeton, however, would open MANY doors to him if he decides to not pursue medicine.
 
Lawper said:
Full-ride. Doesn't want to be away from friends and family. Wants to avoid a low GPA at a notorious grade-deflating school.

No brainer. He should choose UCLA (a very good school) and thrive there. It makes things much easier when applying to UC medical schools in the future.
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Thank you for your input. You guys are great.
 
justadream said:
Is he sure about pre-med? Many people who think they are premed in HS end up finding something else interesting.

Princeton is hard on the GPA (although I think they recently revised their grading policy). Princeton, however, would open MANY doors to him if he decides to not pursue medicine.
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Thank you for bringing that up.
I believe his personality suite him well in this field. He is kind, caring,hard working and responsible. He has great memory. He is well like by people and so will be happy.
On the other hand he is not the shrewd business and lawyer type.
 
I do not have anything against business and lawyer type of personality. In fact, I think my daughter is the business type.
 
UCLA is a great school, many of my friends go there and have had great experiences. Their GPAs are not as great as mine or my other friends at our lower tier UC school, most likely because UCLA has a more competitive curve, but they are still competitive for MD admissions. I think potential GPA is of huge importance in choosing an undergraduate school.
 
CaliforniaDreamer said:
UCLA is a great school, many of my friends go there and have had great experiences. Their GPAs are not as great as mine or my other friends at our lower tier UC school, most likely because UCLA has a more competitive curve, but they are still competitive for MD admissions. I think potential GPA is of huge importance in choosing an undergraduate school.
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Thank you for your input.
Are you suggesting he goes to a lower tier UC?
 
You should make sure your child is motivated enough to succeed in academic life outside your supervision. A lot of bright students in high school lose motivation and do not as well when they come to college. Make sure your son is doing and studying what he wants to. This will allow your son to succeed in anywhere.

Edit: because I am from UCLA, I can list few disadvantages of UCLA
1) GPA is deflated compared to other privates.
2) hard to get to know professors because classes are filled with hundreds of students. (3-400 students are common)
3) hard to get research position, premed counseling,
 
Hold your horses, one step at a time...honestly, there's no need to worry about getting into medical school at this point.
Either way, your son can't go wrong with either schools. He should just choose the school that he likes the most.
 
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csdanim said:
You should make sure your child is motivated enough to succeed in academic life outside your supervision. A lot of bright students in high school lose motivation and do not as well when they come to college. Make sure your son is doing and studying what he wants to. This will allow your son to succeed in anywhere.

Edit: because I am from UCLA, I can list few disadvantages of UCLA
1) GPA is deflated compared to other privates.
2) hard to get to know professors because classes are filled with hundreds of students. (3-400 students are common)
3) hard to get research position, premed counseling,
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Thank you for your input.
I did asked him if he is the technical- data type or the philosophy of science type. He said he is the philosophy of science type and described classes such as anatomy and biology as "common sense"( I do not even know if that can be true).
We do have concern about large classes at UCLA, and is it still like that in later year? Now that is where Princeton might be better. Oh dear!
We do not live in LA area. Even at UCLA, he is awaayyy from home.
 
csdanim said:
1) GPA is deflated compared to other privates.
2) hard to get to know professors because classes are filled with hundreds of students. (3-400 students are common)
3) hard to get research position, premed counseling,
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1. While definitely true, I'd argue that Princeton has not only stiffer competition, but more grade deflation than UCLA.

2. For lower division classes this is true, upper division electives can be ~100 (depending on your major).

3. I'll definitely agree on the lack of premed (or any sort for that matter...) counseling, but getting research is extremely easy. There are hundreds of PI's on campus who for the most part are accessible and welcoming to motivated undergrads.
 
tofuuu said:
Hold your horses, one step at a time...honestly, there's no need to worry about getting into medical school at this point.
Either way, your son can't go wrong with either schools. He should just choose the school that he likes the most.
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Thank you for your thoughtfulness.
I know what you mean, only after I hit my 40s not long ago did I try to plan step 3 when taking step 2.
At this point, he does not know which school he likes better. Bruins and Tigers both look grand to him from different angles.
 
Do NOT choose a school based on "potential GPA." You'll be miserable for four years. Choose a school for the fit - does it fit you? Come to Princeton Preview and go to UCLA for a visit and see which fits better. Let him make his own choice.

While Princeton is hard and competitive, it's also a great atmosphere. You'll be among the top students in the country and the intellectual firepower in every single one of your classes is just amazing. You learn the material not because you have to take an exam for it, but because you really want to learn. The learning process and learning for the sake of understanding is really emphasized.

PM me if you want specific details, as I can provide firsthand experience.
 
Abstractions said:
1. While definitely true, I'd argue that Princeton has not only stiffer competition, but more grade deflation than UCLA.
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You earn your grades at Princeton. If you get an A in the class, that means that you've mastered the material. I have no comment on other schools because I have limited experience and only with state schools, but you can be assured that you'll work immensely hard at Princeton and the study skills you'll learn are invaluable.

Abstractions said:
3. I'll definitely agree on the lack of premed (or any sort for that matter...) counseling, but getting research is extremely easy. There are hundreds of PI's on campus who for the most part are accessible and welcoming to motivated undergrads.
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Research at Princeton is required for graduation. Juniors do independent work in labs/libraries depending on major and seniors complete theses.

Abstractions said:
2. For lower division classes this is true, upper division electives can be ~100 (depending on your major).
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Just for comparison, Princeton's intro classes can have 100 or 200 people in them but upper division classes usually cap class size at around 25. Really small classes, and allows you to get to know your professors in the latter years.
 
Princeton. If he decides to not go to medical school, he'll be able to start a career in whatever field he likes with Princeton on his resume. If he decides to put off medical school for a few years, he'll be able to get job with Princeton on his resume. His classmates at Princeton (and maybe at UCLA too) will be future Congressman, Supreme Court Justices, CEOS and CFOS, and maybe even future heads of state for countries around the world. In his time there, he will make priceless connections.
 
lifetothefullest said:
Just for comparison, Princeton's intro classes can have 100 or 200 people in them but upper division classes usually cap class size at around 25. Really small classes, and allows you to get to know your professors in the latter years.
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From a solely educational standpoint (not factoring in things like networking/career opportunities), I think this is the one of the biggest differences between UCLA and Princeton. While it's definitely possible to get to know your professors at a big school like UCLA, you have to make an active effort to do so.
 
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@Still-Learning, I am also Australian! 🙂 I faced a similar decision in high school, between attending a top 20 undergrad or a lower-ranked school with a full-tuition scholarship. I chose the lower-ranked school purely for financial reasons -- there was no way my parents could have afforded $200k for the top school. While I am thriving here, I'm sure I would have been happier at the top school, particularly with the student body. However the school I chose is not a large state school like UCLA, but a small liberal arts college, so the small class sizes, my favorite thing about my college, is not applicable to your situation.

However, in your son's case, it seems like he would only have to pay $60k total for Princeton. I know that seems like a hefty sum but if it is financially feasible for your family, it seems like a great deal for a top school with all the resources others have already explained. I'm not familiar with the scholarship your son received, but if it does not cover room and board, the total cost of attendance for UCLA may be very comparable to Princeton. In his shoes, I'd pick Princeton.
 
Princeton is a very rare opportunity. There is a risk he may regret throwing away that opportunity later in life, especially if he decides to not pursue med school.

-Given the great financial aid offer from Princeton, the money difference is really quite small
-Yes, he can keep CA residency for future med school applications. Simply have him keep using his CA address as his permanent address for any government forms and keep renewing his California Driver's license. So don't worry about that.
 
Wow! You guys are awesome!
Thank you Abstractions and Littlepuddle.
Lifetothefullest: I love your username and thank you for the detail infos.
Skittsie13: If he goes to UCLA, almost all expenses would be covered, even foods, room and boards, books and tuition etc..
Freemontie: Yes my husband was really on the case about the rare opportunity. My husband was so excited about the news he could not sleep last night. My son, slept like a baby and very calm yet unsure. Me, restless I am seeking for answer, what is best and hoping not to waste any great opportunity. And thank you for your answer about CA residence.
 
At Princeton, his classmates and professors are almost the brightest (and most connected) in the country. Do not underestimate the importance of this. The difference in money is very minimal in the long run. Princeton is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
 
The hype over Princeton in this thread is ridiculous. For pre-med purposes you will do just fine at any of the UCs. I see no reason to be concerned about not getting into medical school as he already demonstrated his ability to handle rigorous coursework. I suggest that he decides where to attend based on where he likes it best, but be certain that going to UCLA will in no way hold him back.
 
allantois said:
The hype over Princeton in this thread is ridiculous. For pre-med purposes you will do just fine at any of the UCs. I see no reason to be concerned about not getting into medical school as he already demonstrated his ability to handle rigorous coursework. I suggest that he decides where to attend, but be certain going to UCLA will in no way hold him back.
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Not saying that UCLA would hold him back - he should definitely decide where to attend. But I could just as easily say for pre-med purposes you will do just fine at Princeton. We're trying to provide personal experiences so that the OP's kid might come to a more informed choice about the two.

allantois said:
Not that it matters, but UCLA has a lot more Congressmen than Princeton.
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Measuring a school's worth by a random statistic really doesn't amount to much. UCLA graduates many more students each year so by the sheer population size, one would expect many more Congressmen. I could just as easily say that three sitting members of the Supreme Court graduated Princeton. We could do that all night long, but it's not really helpful - what's important, and I think we all agree on this, is that the OP's kid go to each college's preview or visit days and make the decision for himself/herself.
 
GottaGetThatMD said:
At Princeton, his classmates and professors are almost the brightest (and most connected) in the country. Do not underestimate the importance of this. The difference in money is very minimal in the long run. Princeton is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
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Thank you for your input.
Yes. Because the classmates are the brightest in the country at Princeton, we are concerned that he may fall below average in the class rank, an undesirable situation. Whereas, at UCLA we know he is top 1.5% of applicants and so have confident he will still be at least top 10 % in his class rank. Also I believe UCLA have a curve where 20% of class receive As. So he is thinking that may be he will graduate with a 4.0 GPA.
 
Still-Learning said:
Thank you for your input.
Yes. Because the classmates are the brightest in the country at Princeton, we are concerned that he may fall below average in the class rank, an undesirable situation. Whereas, at UCLA we know he is top 1.5% of applicants and so have confident he will still be at least top 10 % in his class rank. Also I believe UCLA have a curve where 20% of class receive As. So he is thinking that may be he will graduate with a 4.0 GPA.
Click to expand...

If he's smart enough to make it to Princeton without connections then he's smart enough to do just fine.
 
allantois said:
The hype over Princeton in this thread is ridiculous. For pre-med purposes you will do just fine at any of the UCs. I see no reason to be concerned about not getting into medical school as he already demonstrated his ability to handle rigorous coursework. I suggest that he decides where to attend based on where he likes it best, but be certain that going to UCLA will in no way hold him back.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your assurance.
 
Still-Learning said:
Yes. Because the classmates are the brightest in the country at Princeton, we are concerned that he may fall below average in the class rank, an undesirable situation. Whereas, at UCLA we know he is top 1.5% of applicants and so have confident he will still be at least top 10 % in his class rank. Also I believe UCLA have a curve where 20% of class receive As. So he is thinking that may be he will graduate with a 4.0 GPA.
Click to expand...

You also tend to do best in an environment that is well-suited for you. One might argue that an environment of the brightest students in the country would be well-suited for a top student. I am biased in this regard but a 3.7 from Princeton means something. It means you learned the material very well and that you are really the best of the best. It also means that you are prepared for the kind of information the MCAT tests on. No, not the old MCAT, the new MCAT that integrates material over disciplines and places less emphasis on rote memorization.
 
As someone who went to UCLA, I can tell you the school is what you make of it. If your son is smart and motivated to do well, there are tons of opportunities to those who seek them out. As far as class size, I have the same attitude: if your son sits in the front row, goes to office hours, and advocates for himself, it won't matter how many other people are in the class. (Depending on the major, upper division classes can be small ~25 people). If he is someone who is more reserved or timid about seeking those opportunities, he might thrive in a smaller environment like Princeton.

Unlike someone above mentioned about Princeton about the grade you get is the one you deserve, UCLA does have a massive curve in all pre-med courses and even if everyone "deserves" an A because they mastered the material, there will still be a curve and people will get B's, C's etc because that's the nature of the curve-- that's something your son should be aware of.

But, if financially you can swing Princeton, my best advice to you would be to let your son choose which is best for him. He will do best where he will be happiest-- he can't make a bad choice!

EDIT: Just for the record, I was accepted as a Regent's Scholar at UC and I found the transition to UCLA to be incredibly challenging. I'm sure your son will do wonderfully where ever he goes, but I wouldn't bank on his high school performance as an indication that he will coast at the top 1.5% through those pre-med courses.
 
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UCLAPremed1 said:
Unlike someone above mentioned about Princeton about the grade you get is the one you deserve, UCLA does have a massive curve in all pre-med courses and even if everyone "deserves" an A because they mastered the material, there will still be a curve and people will get B's, C's etc because that's the nature of the curve-- that's something your son should be aware of.
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That's not unlike what was mentioned. You do earn the grade you get at Princeton. Nobody says you couldn't at UCLA. But the bar is definitely really high at Princeton. You're just saying that UCLA has a curve. Fine. As someone else mentioned above though, competition's not as difficult at UCLA relatively speaking. So might be easier to clear that bar. Which would be the thing you're looking at if all you care about is protecting your GPA.
 
Cali resident here. In high school I was torn between Berkeley/UCLA or a few other top 20 private schools and after looking into the UC system it was clearly the worse option. I'd advise towards Princeton for the following reasons:
  • The 4-year graduation rate is low at UCs compared to top private schools (4 year graduation rate for UCLA is ~70% while its ~90% for Princeton) because the system is so over-crowded it's hard to register for many required classes. It's a serious problem for premeds in the UCs to get the chem/bio/organic/physics classes they need as freshman and sophomores.
  • UCLA largely lacks the small class experiences many people want from college - you have to go out of your way to get classes where students and the professor engage in discussion rather than the teacher standing up front lecturing at the massive class.
  • The student-reported happiness is lower at UCs than top private schools - if you can, look at a Princeton Review 377 Best Colleges book which shows surveyed student happiness ratings. Note that there are a few exceptions (people at UChicago and especially Hopkins report low happiness) but I recall Princeton being one of the places with a near-perfect student happiness rating.
  • SDN tends to be in denial about elite school reputation being worth a lot, but an AAMC survey of private medical schools found that "Selectivity of undergraduate institution" was of "highest importance" along with GPA and MCAT (see here page 7). Princeton is one of the very few schools that can be said to have a considerable reputation bump over UCLA so this should be a factor.
  • Both schools are very grade deflating
Edit:
  • One more point I forgot to add: While the UC's produce a lot of very high quality research, there are many many more students seeking research experience than there are good positions for them. Compared to a top private school, it's much tougher to land a great lab position early on in your college career.
 
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Still-Learning said:
Thank you for your input.
Yes. Because the classmates are the brightest in the country at Princeton, we are concerned that he may fall below average in the class rank, an undesirable situation. Whereas, at UCLA we know he is top 1.5% of applicants and so have confident he will still be at least top 10 % in his class rank. Also I believe UCLA have a curve where 20% of class receive As. So he is thinking that may be he will graduate with a 4.0 GPA.
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If he is truly top 1.5% at UCLA and 4.0-bound at UCLA, then he likely won't be below average at Princeton. And I say this as someone who truly believes there is a significant difference in peer-group quality between the two schools.
 
justadream said:
If he is truly top 1.5% at UCLA and 4.0-bound at UCLA, then he likely won't be below average at Princeton. And I say this as someone who truly believes there is a significant difference in peer-group quality between the two schools.
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Yeah pretty sure a 2300 is closer to the 75th percentile than the middle for any school (except maybe caltech?)
 
UCLAPremed1 said:
As someone who went to UCLA, I can tell you the school is what you make of it. If your son is smart and motivated to do well, there are tons of opportunities to those who seek them out. As far as class size, I have the same attitude: if your son sits in the front row, goes to office hours, and advocates for himself, it won't matter how many other people are in the class. (Depending on the major, upper division classes can be small ~25 people). If he is someone who is more reserved or timid about seeking those opportunities, he might thrive in a smaller environment like Princeton.

Unlike someone above mentioned about Princeton about the grade you get is the one you deserve, UCLA does have a massive curve in all pre-med courses and even if everyone "deserves" an A because they mastered the material, there will still be a curve and people will get B's, C's etc because that's the nature of the curve-- that's something your son should be aware of.

But, if financially you can swing Princeton, my best advice to you would be to let your son choose which is best for him. He will do best where he will be happiest-- he can't make a bad choice!

EDIT: Just for the record, I was accepted as a Regent's Scholar at UC and I found the transition to UCLA to be incredibly challenging. I'm sure your son will do wonderfully where ever he goes, but I wouldn't bank on his high school performance as an indication that he will coast at the top 1.5% through those pre-med courses.
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Thank you for sharing.
No. He never thought he was smart, only that he studied real hard. And he is prepared to study real hard again. Actually, he enjoyed a lot of the classes and the people. So it was not pressured he hated.
Even though, I am writing all this, my husband and my son are following everything I wrote together with all the advises here.
 
It makes things much easier when applying to UC medical schools in the future.
4m.jpg
 
efle said:
Yeah pretty sure a 2300 is closer to the 75th percentile than the middle for any school (except maybe caltech?)
Click to expand...

Wow....just looked at the CDS data for Princeton. I mean I know this is superscored data but still: Princeton's 75th percentile is 2400/2400 lol...

Assuming the 2300 is superscored, 2300 is still over 50th percentile (25-75 range is 2100-2400).
 
justadream said:
Wow....just looked at the CDS data for Princeton. I mean I know this is superscored data but still: Princeton's 75th percentile is 2400/2400 lol...

Assuming the 2300 is superscored, 2300 is still over 50th percentile (25-75 range is 2100-2400).
Click to expand...

They get more than 25% perfect scores?? Maybe the SAT ain't such a good metric anymore.
 
I suggest Princeton. But some of the people in this thread that keep harping about vague notions like "connections" at Princeton don't seem to have any real world experience. He isn't going to go to Princeton and automatically be part of some special "in crowd" and be set for life- so don't expect that either. Nor is competing in general chemistry lab for points against valedictorians vs. average kids going to make him a better person. A kid with social skills and friends whose families can help him get job interviews will go farther at UCLA than a quiet smart kid at Princeton who will still have to compete with other very smart Princeton kids for, say, a wall street job. So lets not exaggerate.

But what he WILL have is a small leg-up against non-HYP grads in job applications and interviews for the rest of his life, which is I think is worth the $48k extra.

EDIT: This is my view from going to a non-HYP ivy, anway.
 
efle said:
Superscore data is total nonsense, what you really want is singlescore CR/Math intervals
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Unfortunately, no school will ever release it. Everyone reports superscores for the purpose of boosting USNWR rank.
 
justadream said:
Wow....just looked at the CDS data for Princeton. I mean I know this is superscored data but still: Princeton's 75th percentile is 2400/2400 lol...

Assuming the 2300 is superscored, 2300 is still over 50th percentile (25-75 range is 2100-2400).
Click to expand...
His SAT : Writing 800 Reading 800 math 700
At another sitting Math 740, so super score:2340
 
efle said:
Cali resident here. In high school I was torn between Berkeley/UCLA or a few other top 20 private schools and after looking into the UC system it was clearly the worse option. I'd advise towards Princeton for the following reasons:
  • The 4-year graduation rate is low at UCs compared to top private schools (4 year graduation rate for UCLA is ~70% while its ~90% for Princeton) because the system is so over-crowded it's hard to register for many required classes. It's a serious problem for premeds in the UCs to get the chem/bio/organic/physics classes they need as freshman and sophomores.
  • UCLA largely lacks the small class experiences many people want from college - you have to go out of your way to get classes where students and the professor engage in discussion rather than the teacher standing up front lecturing at the massive class.
  • The student-reported happiness is lower at UCs than top private schools - if you can, look at a Princeton Review 377 Best Colleges book which shows surveyed student happiness ratings. Note that there are a few exceptions (people at UChicago and especially Hopkins report low happiness) but I recall Princeton being one of the places with a near-perfect student happiness rating.
  • SDN tends to be in denial about elite school reputation being worth a lot, but an AAMC survey of private medical schools found that "Selectivity of undergraduate institution" was of "highest importance" along with GPA and MCAT (see here page 7). Princeton is one of the very few schools that can be said to have a considerable reputation bump over UCLA so this should be a factor.
  • Both schools are very grade deflating
Click to expand...
Thank you Efle.
 
Still-Learning said:
His SAT : Writing 800 Reading 800 math 700
At another sitting Math 740, so super score:2340
Click to expand...
A 1500 CR/M puts him around the average for the highest average scoring colleges which include Princeton but waaaay above UCLA. He likely would have an easier time beating the curve at UCLA but he wouldn't be below average at Princeton either.
 
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Really hard to turn down a full scholarship at UCLA. It sounds like it if he went to Princeton he would have to do work study to make it by, which would certainly cut into his time for studying, volunteering/interning, research, and having fun/relaxing. At UCLA, the main downside is that there aren't really pre-med advisors here to guide you through the process, but most determined med school applicants should be able to figure it on their own and seek their own mentors from upperclassmen and faculty. While I'm sure connections at Princeton are invaluable, I can assure you that opportunities are very abundant at UCLA. There are many, many experiences available that will shape your son's path to medical school and allow him to be a competitive applicant 3-4 years from now. Those who say it is difficult to get research are not pursuing the correct avenues.

In comparing the rigor of these schools... they're both difficult to get good grades at. At both schools you are studying alongside very smart and driven students, but if you put in enough work and stay determined, you'll manage. I would not let the difficulty of either school be the determining factor in this decision.

Also to reiterate what other's have said in this thread: please visit both schools and see which has a better environment that suits your son's interests. Being a pre-med should not be the only defining factor of one's college experience. Since he may even change his mind about medicine, it's important to choose a college based on overall fit and where he would be the most happy.
 
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