UCLA vs Princeton for premed

[Doug Underhill]

Generally, don't you have to email/call a PI and ask at most schools? What does Princeton do differently from that? Does Princeton actually offer "high quality PI mentorship", or do they just have a research requirement? Most PIs will delegate an undergrad to a grad student/postdoc.

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[CyrilFiggis]

@Still-Learning I appreciate what you are trying to do for your kid, but frankly this is his decision. Both schools offer a highly regarded education. If he wants to pursue pre-med that's great, but don't try to base his decision on that premise. There is tons of literature out there about major retention amongst undergrads.

What you should be discussing with him is his plan of attack while on campus. If he wants a STEM major, he needs to take the first year to develop relationships on campus with either a faculty member or researcher who can serve as a mentor for him. They will be a key resource once he starts applying either for jobs, masters programs or MD programs.

Finally, you need to cut the chord on any hesitation about him being away from you. College is his time to explore and figure out the type of person his is. I like to use the analogy of the safety net vs the parachute - both are there to save you if you fall, but the parachute is strapped to you, omnipresent, limiting your full range of motion.

 

[efle]

Generally, don't you have to email/call a PI and ask at most schools? What does Princeton do differently from that? Does Princeton actually offer "high quality PI mentorship", or do they just have a research requirement? Most PIs will delegate an undergrad to a grad student/postdoc.

Freshman and even sophomores at UCLA have a really hard time getting a research position according to the two friends I know there, and I've heard the same about UCSD - there's just way too many people looking for those spots to give them all one. As for quality of the research experience, I've worked in labs twice at a UC and also at my private Top 20 and seen a big difference in the amount of responsibility and expectations towards the undergrads, and I'd guess Princeton is a further step up from Wustl. But this is really all speculative/based on what I've heard from only a few people, I very much could be wrong.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Generally, don't you have to email/call a PI and ask at most schools? What does Princeton do differently from that? Does Princeton actually offer "high quality PI mentorship", or do they just have a research requirement? Most PIs will delegate an undergrad to a grad student/postdoc.

PIs are generally more open to undergrads and are more likely to take on undergrads since it's a really small school and has only a small grad school. Usually small labs will have one or two undergrads in them and larger labs can accommodate four or five or so, depending on how much money the PI has.

Also, although you're delegated to a grad student (which will happen at almost any school since PI's don't do that much research - they delegate their ideas to grad students, post-docs, etc. to test) or a post-doc, you are expected to produce work typical of a grad student. The undergrad research expectations are much much higher than you'll find at almost any school in the country. Also remember that these PIs are some to the top scientists in the world and good advisers (which may be distinct from being top scientists but at Princeton, the two generally overlap) are the most important thing in research, as any grad student who is choosing grad schools can tell you.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Freshman and even sophomores at UCLA have a really hard time getting a research position according to the two friends I know there, and I've heard the same about UCSD - there's just way too many people looking for those spots to give them all one. As for quality of the research experience, I've worked in labs twice at a UC and also at my private Top 20 and seen a big difference in the amount of responsibility and expectations towards the undergrads, and I'd guess Princeton is a further step up from Wustl. But this is really all speculative/based on what I've heard from only a few people, I very much could be wrong.

Firsthand experience here - you're not wrong.

 

[youmed]

There's no more use in continuing with this thread. Princeton. period.

 

[efle]

There's no more use in continuing with this thread. Princeton. period.

That's been the general consensus, but I and others have been trying to provide some explicit reasons why beyond just "Princeton famous therefore good"

 

[youmed]

That's been the general consensus, but I and others have been trying to provide some explicit reasons why beyond just "Princeton famous therefore good"

There are multiple replies in this thread that state why UC system is not fantastic. It really isn't. Yes, the CA residents receive generous grants and aids in the financial sense but the actual system is not even close to those provided by private universities.

 

[DokterMom]

@DokterMom out of curiosity how far does this wow factor extend? HYPSM? All the ivies? In another thread a few people were arguing that UNC carries an ivy-caliber reputation among adcoms but if UCLA gets a "meh" I somehow doubt that's true.

@gettheleadout are you being sarcastic or did you actually feel your college experience was that bad??

The 'Wow Factor' is multi-level and is basically driven by competitiveness / selectivity --

At the very top level are clearly HYPSM + I would add Cal Tech.
Next level, the other Ivies, U of Chicago, Duke, West Point and Naval academies and some of the other big-name private schools (Amherst, Bowdoin, Bryn Mawr, Julliard, etc.).
Next level would be the very top publics (Berkley, UNC?) and well-known private LACs (edit - clarified) and private research universities. (Wash U St L, Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt)
UCLA would be in the next tier, which is still really good--
​

Reasons (other than Wow!) why Princeton is really that much better --

• Small classes with discussion groups with (only) other brilliant students (ie. no 'lowest common denominator')
• Access to resources. If you want to study the evolution of the art of fencing during the middle ages, Princeton will find a way to support you in that effort. If you want to research ____ (absolutely anything), Princeton will have or find the resources to make that possible.
  
• Diversity. You can go to school surrounded by people who are "just like you!" or surrounded by people who aren't just like you. The latter offers a much greater opportunity for personal growth.

 

[freemontie]

I do have real, firsthand world experience. Connections aren't about making friends, etc. It's about getting somewhere in the real world. Princeton is a top recruiting target for top firms in fields from finance to Wall Street. Alumni networking events can give you experience in any field you desire.

That's a common view but it's largely inaccurate/exaggerated. I would suggest anyone not to overestimate that aspect of going to Princeton or another ivy. I'd rather not explain in detail why, but will if you insist. Or try to find my other post about this topic in another thread.

 

[efle]

@DokterMom Fascinating, would not have guessed places like vandy and UNC would share a tier based on average test scores accept rates etc. And both below Bryn mawr? Huh.

Edit: Here's why the surprise

 

[lifetothefullest]

That's a common view but it's largely inaccurate/exaggerated. I would suggest anyone not to overestimate that aspect of going to Princeton or another ivy. I'd rather not explain in detail why, but will if you insist. Or try to find my other post about this topic in another thread.

So you really wanna tell me that my friends who are going to Barclays, Goldman, JP Morgan - all of which recruited heavily on campus and all of whom networked through the on-campus sessions - don't really exist? I would suggest that people not underestimate the connections that Princeton offers. Now are there people who don't use those connections to the best of their ability? Sure. These are the same people who people on the outside see as being screwed by the system. But it's not anybody's fault but your own that you didn't use the connections your school offers.

 

[efle]

So you really wanna tell me that my friends who are going to Barclays, Goldman, JP Morgan - all of which recruited heavily on campus and all of whom networked through the on-campus sessions - don't really exist? I would suggest that people not underestimate the connections that Princeton offers. Now are there people who don't use those connections to the best of their ability? Sure. These are the same people who people on the outside see as being screwed by the system. But it's not anybody's fault but your own that you didn't use the connections your school offers.

Thank god med schools dgaf who you know, huh

 

[lifetothefullest]

Thank god med schools dgaf who you know, huh

Trust me, there is more to med school admissions than a pure meritocracy. We'd all like it to be a meritocracy but that's just not how the world works 😉

 

[efle]

Trust me, there is more to med school admissions than a pure meritocracy. We'd all like it to be a meritocracy but that's just not how the world works 😉

Oh sure it isn't a pure meritocracy by any means, but it's a hell of a lot better than things like finance and law where names and connections are the real key. From what I've heard and seen reported by AAMC, you'll get courtesy interviews for things like legacy status or knowing the head honchos but no admissions just for knowing the right people.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I guess Princeton is the best answer, then. I'm surprised the UCs are so tough to get research spots at, the people I know in the SUNY system on the other coast found positions with ease, and SUNY is often considered much less competitive.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Oh sure it isn't a pure meritocracy by any means, but it's a hell of a lot better than things like finance and law where names and connections are the real key. From what I've heard and seen reported by AAMC, you'll get courtesy interviews for things like legacy status or knowing the head honchos but no admissions just for knowing the right people.

Yeah, but knowing the right people can get you a lot farther than you think. I mean, unless you're a complete douchebag, even getting the interview can mean a lot. It also means something to be able to personalize someone. The whole point of interviews - whether for med school or jobs - is to get to know somebody at the personal level and assess their personality for the right fit. Why? Because you're placing the reputation of your school/company on that person. If he/she, say, becomes a presidential candidate and spouts incoherent ****, it doesn't look good for your school 😉. And if you know someone who can say to someone else on the board, "Hey, I know this guy and he is a very hard worker, honest, and very motivated," then that does wonders for your character. People tend to trust people they know - whether you know someone on the board (less likely and you'd have to disclose anyway) or you know someone who knows someone on the board and can speak for you. Nobody likes to admit that connections can give you a leg up. But just because we don't like to admit it doesn't mean it's not true.

I guess Princeton is the best answer, then. I'm surprised the UCs are so tough to get research spots at, the people I know in the SUNY system on the other coast found positions with ease, and SUNY is often considered much less competitive.

Let's not say Princeton is the best answer until an actual visit has been paid to both schools. It's different in each case and who knows, maybe he'll have a blast at UCLA and feel like he fits in whereas he doesn't feel that way at Princeton.

 

[efle]

I guess Princeton is the best answer, then. I'm surprised the UCs are so tough to get research spots at, the people I know in the SUNY system on the other coast found positions with ease, and SUNY is often considered much less competitive.

It's probably just a matter of overcrowding, the UCs have been accepting more students than they should for many years (probably related to the insanely high tuition relative to the past)

 

[justadream]

@DokterMom Fascinating, would not have guessed places like vandy and UNC would share a tier based on average test scores accept rates etc. And both below Bryn mawr? Huh.

Edit: Here's why the surprise

I know acceptance rate is not everything but that 40% acceptance percentage for Byrn Mawr indicates that it is not THAT selective (compared to Vandy or WUSTL).

 

[efle]

I know acceptance rate is not everything but that 40% acceptance percentage for Byrn Mawr indicates that it is not THAT selective (compared to Vandy or WUSTL).

Accept rate is essentially useless because it tells you nothing about the quality of applicants, just the number of them - like I suspect many people with lower stats who only apply to a few "reach" schools choose the most famous top schools, driving down accept rates, while people expecting Top 20 acceptances will put on the semi-unknown Vandy or Northwestern or Wustl as "matches", leaving them with higher accept rates but similarly qualified student bodies. Going by the scores of the people they actually nab is a bit better, and that's where it really becomes apparent that the best public schools lie far below the best private, and Bryn Mawr shouldn't be mentioned along with those others.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Prestige and networking go hand in hand. Many of the "top" LACs don't have access to the same level of networking that the Ivies do other than Amherst, Williams, and maybe one or two more (even then it's questionable).

Also Brown and Dartmouth are "dumpster" Ivies + comparable reputation to UNC? I would argue that UNC<UVA and these "dumpster" Ivies have much stronger reputations than either of these schools...

 

[efle]

Prestige and networking go hand in hand. Many of the "top" LACs don't have access to the same level of networking that the Ivies do other than Amherst, Williams, and maybe one or two more (even then it's questionable).

Also Brown and Dartmouth are "dumpster" Ivies + comparable reputation to UNC? I would argue that UNC<UVA and these "dumpster" Ivies have much stronger reputations than either of these schools...

I wonder whether a part of that is because small LACs attract less people gunning for the top of lucrative and prestigious careers?

In a world where Bryn Mawr is more impressive than Vandy, Hopkins, or Wustl, it's a crapshoot whether UVA is impressive or not.

 

[22031 Alum]

Another thought- if the scholarship being offered at UCLA comes with any sort of Honors or Scholar designation, he should definitely take it. Those types of programs come with perks that can make a large state school "smaller," so to speak. I know people who received LSU's Chancellors Scholarship, I think it's called. They had special events throughout the year, were given special housing, preferred status for course registration, etc. And not only were they given faculty mentors, but many of their events gave them more access to faculty than other students- which could cancel out the problems finding a research mentor that others have mentioned. And again, as far as networking, connections established in med school or later are far more important.

 

[lifetothefullest]

And again, as far as networking, connections established in med school or later are far more important.

Maybe for getting a job at a particular university/hospital. Remember the person we're talking about is a high school senior. You don't know if he will drop pre-med to do pre-law or something else. A big part of what makes life enjoyable is forging connections with other people, with your peers. That's why they say college is the best four years of your life. As I see my friends going off to top jobs on Wall Street, to top grad schools, law schools, med schools, etc., I have no regrets about coming here. I feel like I fit in with these people who I can hold (and have held) stimulating conversations with until four in the morning. I can call this place home and not to mention look forward to the massive reunions held every year. The sense of community and belonging is strong here and a great part of that comes from being in an environment saturated with people just like you. For me, at least, I value the personal connections I've made here.

 

[22031 Alum]

Maybe for getting a job at a particular university/hospital. Remember the person we're talking about is a high school senior. You don't know if he will drop pre-med to do pre-law or something else. A big part of what makes life enjoyable is forging connections with other people, with your peers. That's why they say college is the best four years of your life. As I see my friends going off to top jobs on Wall Street, to top grad schools, law schools, med schools, etc., I have no regrets about coming here. I feel like I fit in with these people who I can hold (and have held) stimulating conversations with until four in the morning. I can call this place home and not to mention look forward to the massive reunions held every year. The sense of community and belonging is strong here and a great part of that comes from being in an environment saturated with people just like you. For me, at least, I value the personal connections I've made here.

All of my points are assuming he does end up in medicine, a field where it's frankly dumb to put yourself in a debt hole before you need to, only to end up in the exact same spot as someone who went to school for free. I can't very well offer advice about life on other career paths.

I always hated the "stimulating conversations until 4am" trope. I guarantee those are happening at state schools, especially among the kids in the types of programs I described. Other things you mentioned that I can unequivocally say aren't unique to your school include fun massive reunions that people look forward to, people going off to jobs and grad school, and a sense of community and belonging.

 

[freemontie]

So you really wanna tell me that my friends who are going to Barclays, Goldman, JP Morgan - all of which recruited heavily on campus and all of whom networked through the on-campus sessions - don't really exist? I would suggest that people not underestimate the connections that Princeton offers. Now are there people who don't use those connections to the best of their ability? Sure. These are the same people who people on the outside see as being screwed by the system. But it's not anybody's fault but your own that you didn't use the connections your school offers.

There's 7 or so bulge bracket banks operating in the US, each hiring an investment banking division analyst class between 100-150 people. Your implication that anyone who went to an ivy and didn't get a coveted wall street job simply didn't use the "connections" is a funny thing to say. Meanwhile about 23,000 undergrads graduate from an ivy each year- many of whom wouldn't mind a wall street career (not to mention the fact that there's plenty of competition from top students at top universities outside the ivy league as well). And your earlier statement that "connections" aren't about making friends but about getting jobs misses the point. Simply going to xyz school isn't really a connection in any meaningful way.

Your viewpoint is commonplace though of people who didn't go to ivies- they think there's a magic garden behind those walls. In reality there is still more competition and/or more "in-crowds" that you have to try to become a part of.

 

[freemontie]

And I'll add to that by saying if we're talking about wall street prospects- Princeton wouldn't even be the best choice. Typically, a bulge bracket bank has a rough number of first round interview spots allotted for each university. I've seen Princeton's being quite small, on par with it being the smallest college in terms of enrollment size in the ivy league - even though it is so highly regarded as an institution. And for those limited spots he will be competing with eminently smart and eminently ACTUALLY-CONNECTED princeton students. Just try to imagine it @lifetothefullest , because I doubt you've actually experienced this level of competition in your life.

Princeton is still the right choice- but again, people shouldn't misconstrue it as an automatic golden ticket either.

 

[WedgeDawg]

And I'll add to that by saying if we're talking about wall street prospects- Princeton wouldn't even be the best choice. Typically, a bulge bracket bank has a rough number of first round interview spots allotted for each university. I've seen Princeton's being quite small, on par with it being the smallest college in terms of enrollment size in the ivy league - even though it is so highly regarded as an institution. And for those limited spots he will be competing with eminently smart and eminently ACTUALLY-CONNECTED princeton students. Just try to imagine it @lifetothefullest , because I doubt you've actually experience this level of competition in your life.

Princeton is still the right choice- but again, people shouldn't misconstrue it as an automatic golden ticket either.

There was an article about Wall Street recruiting (I think by Karen Ho) about how firms like Merrill Lynch recruit exclusively from schools like Princeton (which was used as the example). For Wall Street, Princeton is absolutely one of the best places you can go (for premed too). Also it's not the smallest Ivy - Dartmouth is.

 

[Areopagus]

This video can put things into a bit of a different perspective for you.

 

[freemontie]

There was an article about Wall Street recruiting (I think by Karen Ho) about how firms like Merrill Lynch recruit exclusively from schools like Princeton (which was used as the example). For Wall Street, Princeton is absolutely one of the best places you can go (for premed too). Also it's not the smallest Ivy - Dartmouth is.

My main point was that 99.9% of people at a place like Princeton are more-than-impeccably-qualified for those jobs but less than a quarter will get them. And for the record, the best place would be Wharton followed by Stern if you take into account slots and competition.

 

[WedgeDawg]

My main point was that 99.9% of people at a place like Princeton are more-than-impeccably-qualified for those jobs but less than a quarter will get them. And for the record, the best place would be Wharton followed by Stern if you take into account slots and competition.

Interesting. Do you have stats for these placements for my own curiosity?

 

[snowflakes]

I know acceptance rate is not everything but that 40% acceptance percentage for Byrn Mawr indicates that it is not THAT selective (compared to Vandy or WUSTL).

Maybe she's referring to the Bryn Mawr post-bacc program? It seems to be quite selective and seems to place its students really well.

 

[freemontie]

Interesting. Do you have stats for these placements for my own curiosity?

No, I don't. Detailed statistics on such things are not compiled. There is no reason to. It's an aggregation of many anecdotes to be honest. I did have an excel spreadsheet of the colleges represented and the # from each, in several ibd analyst classes around the street that had circulated around. This is from a few years ago now, back when I was interviewing. To some who overvalue HYP-prestige, it would shock them (though it really shouldn't) that the majority of hires ended up coming from much less prestigious places. Not because people don't love to hire Princetonians and the like- just because there are many more people to consider.

 

[lifetothefullest]

I always hated the "stimulating conversations until 4am" trope. I guarantee those are happening at state schools, especially among the kids in the types of programs I described. Other things you mentioned that I can unequivocally say aren't unique to your school include fun massive reunions that people look forward to, people going off to jobs and grad school, and a sense of community and belonging.

Point well taken. My point was that he should go wherever he feels like he fits in more. If it's at a program that's specifically geared towards high-achieving students even though it's at a state school, all the more power to him. That's why I say he should visit both before he makes a choice.

There's 7 or so bulge bracket banks operating in the US, each hiring an investment banking division analyst class between 100-150 people. Your implication that anyone who went to an ivy and didn't get a coveted wall street job simply didn't use the "connections" is a funny thing to say. Meanwhile about 23,000 undergrads graduate from an ivy each year- many of whom wouldn't mind a wall street career (not to mention the fact that there's plenty of competition from top students at top universities outside the ivy league as well). And your earlier statement that "connections" aren't about making friends but about getting jobs misses the point. Simply going to xyz school isn't really a connection in any meaningful way.

Your viewpoint is commonplace though of people who didn't go to ivies- they think there's a magic garden behind those walls. In reality there is still more competition and/or more "in-crowds" that you have to try to become a part of.

And I'll add to that by saying if we're talking about wall street prospects- Princeton wouldn't even be the best choice. Typically, a bulge bracket bank has a rough number of first round interview spots allotted for each university. I've seen Princeton's being quite small, on par with it being the smallest college in terms of enrollment size in the ivy league - even though it is so highly regarded as an institution. And for those limited spots he will be competing with eminently smart and eminently ACTUALLY-CONNECTED princeton students. Just try to imagine it @lifetothefullest , because I doubt you've actually experienced this level of competition in your life.

I implied no such thing. I implied that people at Princeton who didn't get a finance job that they really wanted didn't use their connections to the best of their ability. Why do I narrow it to Princeton, you might ask? Because we send 40% of our grads to finance positions. That's more than UPenn. I've listed the source for that statistic in previous threads and if you insist, I'll list it here again. Princeton is known for sending its grads to finance/consulting positions, more so than any other Ivy save Wharton, which is only a part of the larger UPenn system. But the point is not just about finance. It's about many many job opportunities - recruiters who come to campus, who recruit from particular organizations, etc. You graduate from Princeton and you'll get a good job. I know engineers who are now making what mid-career engineers typically make at huge oil/pharma companies. I know humanities majors who are consulting. I know politics majors who are now i-bankers.

Will you actually read my posts before quoting them? I never made the statement that connections aren't about making friends but about getting jobs. In fact, my statement was quite the opposite. I said "A big part of what makes life enjoyable is forging connections with other people, with your peers." Sounds like making friends to me - that has been the greatest part of my college experience.

In fact, what you are spouting is what somebody who didn't go to HYP would say. I go to Princeton. I have firsthand experience with the networks and connections available to me, every day here. Recruiters on campus, close friends of mine going off to prestigious internships/jobs, and I myself have been very successful in "that level of competition." I know exactly the kind of competition you're talking about and I won't disclose specifics of my previous engagements for privacy reasons, but I can tell you that many of the opportunities I have had (including coveted spots at top firms - not necessarily finance) came through the support network I have here at Princeton.

People, believe what you will. I'm only here to describe my experiences.

 

[freemontie]

Not quite. Your exact quote:

Connections aren't about making friends, etc. It's about getting somewhere in the real world.

And you may be disappointed by that 40% going-into-finance statistic when you realize that only a fraction of that are the elite wall street jobs we are talking about. Market risk or compliance at a mid-tier Boston mutual fund is a finance job too.

 

[lifetothefullest]

Not quite. Your exact quote:

Ah. Must've been before the former post. I have since qualified it with the aforementioned statement about making friends. I was originally talking about connections in a different context - specifically in the job context - I wasn't considering any other type at that point. And as I have said, I do believe that connections play a big role in the jobs I have gotten and the ones my close friends are getting. These are not your run-of-the-mill job either. They are highly competitive and, as I said, not all in finance (but that doesn't make them any less competitive).

And you may disappointed by that 40% going-into-finance statistic when you realize that only a fraction of that are the elite wall street jobs we are talking about. Market risk or compliance at a mid-tier Boston mutual fund is a finance job too.

The elite Wall Street jobs who is talking about? I really don't care about just elite Wall Street jobs. If you want to limit your argument to that small subset, we can discuss that too. In fact, based on the Career Services stuff I have seen, Princeton grads do quite well at top Wall Street firms. Perhaps there are fewer Princeton grads there but that may only reflect the smaller size of the undergrad class relative to other top Ivies. I would like to see a percentage statistic about that if we are to discuss this further. Otherwise, "something I remember from when I did this a few years ago..." just won't cut it. The argument would be pointless, if you get what I mean.

On the general scale, Princeton grads do extremely well in job placement overall. And these aren't ****ty jobs like you seem to be implying. They are decent, well-paying jobs in fields that the student really wants to be in. Sure, there are a few grads I know who are unemployed. But then again, that's the rare minority. As I've said before, I know engineers making much more than the intro-level salary in their field, i-bankers, consultants, analysts at top Wall Street firms, friends at top graduate programs in and out of the country. Where did they get those jobs? The majority of the finance people got theirs during the recruitment job fairs that are held many times a year. The grad school friends got their positions because they had access to top faculty here who were phenomenal advisers and so they produced grad-level work when they were here. I could go on and on but you get the point.

If you really want to continue this argument, why don't you speak with somebody who graduated Princeton about his or her experience in the job market? And please don't just speak with the rare unemployed ones because as you know, that'd be extremely biased. Otherwise, I really don't see a point in continuing this argument. You're on the outside looking in and I'm trying to explain some of the inner workings so that other people on here might get a fair idea of each school's benefits and weigh them accordingly (several UCLA grads have also been on here with their piece on that school).

 

[freemontie]

Ah. Must've been before the former post. I have since qualified it with the aforementioned statement about making friends. I was originally talking about connections in a different context - specifically in the job context - I wasn't considering any other type at that point. And as I have said, I do believe that connections play a big role in the jobs I have gotten and the ones my close friends are getting. These are not your run-of-the-mill job either. They are highly competitive and, as I said, not all in finance (but that doesn't make them any less competitive).



The elite Wall Street jobs who is talking about? I really don't care about just elite Wall Street jobs. If you want to limit your argument to that small subset, we can discuss that too. In fact, based on the Career Services stuff I have seen, Princeton grads do quite well at top Wall Street firms. Perhaps there are fewer Princeton grads there but that may only reflect the smaller size of the undergrad class relative to other top Ivies. I would like to see a percentage statistic about that if we are to discuss this further. Otherwise, "something I remember from when I did this a few years ago..." just won't cut it. The argument would be pointless, if you get what I mean.

On the general scale, Princeton grads do extremely well in job placement overall. And these aren't ****ty jobs like you seem to be implying. They are decent, well-paying jobs in fields that the student really wants to be in. Sure, there are a few grads I know who are unemployed. But then again, that's the rare minority. As I've said before, I know engineers making much more than the intro-level salary in their field, i-bankers, consultants, analysts at top Wall Street firms, friends at top graduate programs in and out of the country. Where did they get those jobs? The majority of the finance people got theirs during the recruitment job fairs that are held many times a year. The grad school friends got their positions because they had access to top faculty here who were phenomenal advisers and so they produced grad-level work when they were here. I could go on and on but you get the point.

If you really want to continue this argument, why don't you speak with somebody who graduated Princeton about his or her experience in the job market? And please don't just speak with the rare unemployed ones because as you know, that'd be extremely biased. Otherwise, I really don't see a point in continuing this argument. You're on the outside looking in and I'm trying to explain some of the inner workings so that other people on here might get a fair idea of each school's benefits and weigh them accordingly (several UCLA grads have also been on here with their piece on that school).

Well hey- if that's what you're talking about top UCLA grads do very well too. For that matter, plenty of lower-than-UCLA state schools offer opportunities for jobs in supporting departments at mutual funds. And they're not working with students that are arguably the best and brightest.
In short, I think you are biased as well as in for a rude awakening when you actually go through the recruiting process in full. Ivies, especially "top ivies" a rare and valuable opportunity but your cheerleading is becoming a parody of it.

 

[Areopagus]

No, I don't. Detailed statistics on such things are not compiled. There is no reason to. It's an aggregation of many anecdotes to be honest. I did have an excel spreadsheet of the colleges represented and the # from each, in several ibd analyst classes around the street that had circulated around. This is from a few years ago now, back when I was interviewing. To some who overvalue HYP-prestige, it would shock them (though it really shouldn't) that the majority of hires ended up coming from much less prestigious places. Not because people don't love to hire Princetonians and the like- just because there are many more people to consider.

Exactly. Watch the video I posted a little earlier. MG talks about the hype of prestige.

Am I going to get in trouble for posting it again?

 

[lifetothefullest]

Well hey- if that's what you're talking about top UCLA grads do very well too. For that matter, plenty of lower-than-UCLA state schools offer opportunities for jobs in supporting departments at mutual funds. And they're not working with students that are arguably the best and brightest.

I'm talking about students going on to top law schools, top engineering firms, etc. Still others are on scholarships to universities outside the U.S. Others have received grants to allow them to travel the world. You think UCLA has more Fulbright/Marshall/Rhodes recipients? I don't have the figures but if you find that UCLA is better than Princeton in those metrics, then I concede the point. The whole world does not revolve around finance, as you seem to think.

In short, I think you are biased as well as in for a rude awakening when you actually go through the recruiting process in full. Ivies, especially "top ivies" a rare and valuable opportunity but your cheerleading is becoming a parody of it.

I have gone through the recruiting process. My close friends went through the recruiting process in the fall. Still other friends have gone through in previous years. n=15 or so, maybe, who went through the actual recruiting process and about that many who went on to professional or grad school. You can spout whatever you want from your experience a few years ago. You obviously did not go to Princeton. Maybe you went to another Ivy. I have no idea how their career services works. The only thing I can say is that Princeton takes care of you.

Now, since you have not experienced what I have, I'm not going to continue this argument. It's pointless. It's an argument about what you think and what I know. I have not experienced what you have. So I will not make comments on other Ivy graduates' job prospects or placements because I have no direct knowledge of that information.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I'm talking about students going on to top law schools, top engineering firms, etc. Still others are on scholarships to universities outside the U.S. Others have received grants to allow them to travel the world. You think UCLA has more Fulbright/Marshall/Rhodes recipients? I don't have the figures but if you find that UCLA is better than Princeton in those metrics, then I concede the point. The whole world does not revolve around finance, as you seem to think.



I have gone through the recruiting process. My close friends went through the recruiting process in the fall. Still other friends have gone through in previous years. n=15 or so, maybe, who went through the actual recruiting process and about that many who went on to professional or grad school. You can spout whatever you want from your experience a few years ago. You obviously did not go to Princeton. Maybe you went to another Ivy. I have no idea how their career services works. The only thing I can say is that Princeton takes care of you.

Now, since you have not experienced what I have, I'm not going to continue this argument. It's pointless. It's an argument about what you think and what I know. I have not experienced what you have. So I will not make comments on other Ivy graduates' job prospects or placements because I have no direct knowledge of that information.

I'm at a different Ivy and my experience and those of my friends has been comparable (obviously I'm not going into finance, but everyone else and their mother seem to be).

 

[Sir.SavaLottaLife]

If he is going to stick to medicine for sure, ---UCLA
The scholarship is what really puts this one over the edge. The Princeton's price is only going to add to the price of medical school, and this would put the total price tag up to several hundred thousand dollars. UCLA is still a fantastic school that will provide him the opportunity to go to nearly any medical school as long as he is determined and does his part.

If there is any chance that he decides to change career paths--- Princeton

 

[DokterMom]

@DokterMom Fascinating, would not have guessed places like vandy and UNC would share a tier based on average test scores accept rates etc. And both below Bryn mawr? Huh.

Edit: Here's why the surprise

My 'Wow Tiers' were just off the top of my head for illustration purposes... Am a bit surprised that Bryn Mawr admits such a large % of applicants, but probably self-selecting to a large degree. Wonder where Harvey Mudd falls here?

 

[LetMeInOK]

Exactly. Watch the video I posted a little earlier. MG talks about the hype of prestige.

Am I going to get in trouble for posting it again?

I don't think people are watching the video cause it makes a good case. If the son has doubts he will be "as smart" as the other kids at Princeton, then relative deprivation may hinder his performance if he chooses to go there. If he really strong about going to medical school, he's better off going to UCLA and will have the crutch of the honors program to help him reach the opportunities that others are describing as difficult. At my state school, students in the honors program could go their honors advisor and pretty much ask for anything (research, study abroad money, faculty/financial support for new organizations) and the advisor would find them the connections to get there.

 

[Still-Learning]

WOW! I am so grateful for all the generous advises!

Thank you @Enginerd2016. I love your" worked as a tutor" idea. My son tutored classmate for free often and never even mention it until the conversation came up one day.

Thank you @Lucca.

Thank you @pbjbanana. My son will take your advise and will talk to the financial aid office. Also, at the bottom of the page of the email that Princeton offered to fly him out to visit, it also include a paragraph about contacting the financial aid office.
" Our colleagues in the Financial Aid Office advised us that you might appreciate financial assistance, and so we would like to cover your travel expenses to attend one of these events."
"If you have questions about your financial aid award, please contact the Financial Aid Office directly at(609) 258-3330 from Monday to Friday, between 8:45 a.m. and 5 p.m. ET, or by email at[email protected]."
One of my son's friend(who started writing a 600 pages book at age eleven and a state award winning speaker in Speech and Debate ) once said to him that my son will be happier and do well after going college. And I told my son that I believe so too.

Thank you @snowflakes.
Thank you @Doug Underhill.
Thank you @gettheleadout.
Thank you @doggieblaze.
Thank you @Eppur Si Muove.
Thank you @neekzg.
Thank you @medguy24.
Thank you @GreatAdviceForPass. The major he applied for: Molecular Biology, second choice certificate program: Finance
Thank you @22031 Alum. The Regent Scholarships( the most prestigious scholarship awarded to UC undergraduate students ) offered by UCSD, UCD and UCI to my son have the following.
"College Honors Program Includes appointment of an Honors Advisor
Priority enrollment appointments
Increased library privileges
Research program
Faculty Mentor Program"
UCSD and UCD also offered almost fullride.
The Scholarship he received for UCLA was not the same as the above and does not include all those perks.

Thank you @CyrilFiggis.
"Finally, you need to cut the chord on any hesitation about him being away from you. College is his time to explore and figure out the type of person his is. I like to use the analogy of the safety net vs the parachute - both are there to save you if you fall, but the parachute is strapped to you, omnipresent, limiting your full range of motion." I agree.

Thank you WedgeDawg.

Thank you Areopagus.

 

[Vesh]

If another anecdote is useful, I'll throw in mine:

My biggest regret, to this day, is turning down an Ivy acceptance for a full ride to my state school. I had a great experience at my school, I got to see my family often, and I had great opportunities at the medical school, but I don't go a week without thinking about what I missed out on.

After one semester I quickly realized I was better suited for smaller class sizes. The advising, although sufficient, was not as good as I would have imagined because of the sheer number of students. My credentials, although excellent, were often beat out by kids with brand name diplomas (I am in engineering, but dabbled in big three management consulting).

I am now quickly realizing the 100K price tag is well worth it. The value an Ivy degree presents is simply unbeatable, especially if you have interests outside of medicine. That's exactly why they are so renowned. When I have children, and if they get an opportunity to attend an Ivy, I will encourage them to run with it so that they are not left with the same mingling regret that I have. Obviously fit trumps all, but if you feel that you can see yourself happy at that school, I say go for it.

 

[22031 Alum]

If another anecdote is useful, I'll throw in mine:

My biggest regret, to this day, is turning down an Ivy acceptance for a full ride to my state school. I had a great experience at my school, I got to see my family often, and I had great opportunities at the medical school, but I don't go a week without thinking about what I missed out on.

After one semester I quickly realized I was better suited for smaller class sizes. The advising, although sufficient, was not as good as I would have imagined because of the sheer number of students. My credentials, although excellent, were often beat out by kids with brand name diplomas (I am in engineering, but dabbled in big three management consulting).

I am now quickly realizing the 100K price tag is well worth it. The value an Ivy degree presents is simply unbeatable, especially if you have interests outside of medicine. That's exactly why they are so renowned. When I have children, and if they get an opportunity to attend an Ivy, I will encourage them to run with it so that they are not left with the same mingling regret that I have. Obviously fit trumps all, but if you feel that you can see yourself happy at that school, I say go for it.

My full ride was to a top-ranked private school, so I still had the "brand name" aspect that wasn't there at my state school. Acknowledging this difference, I would still challenge you to revisit this statement in a few years. I see you've been accepted- there will be people in your class who attended those brand name schools, and are hundreds of thousands in debt. And they will be at the exact same place you are. It's easy to say that an imaginary 100K you will never have to pay would have been worth it.

 

[Vesh]

My full ride was to a top-ranked private school, so I still had the "brand name" aspect that wasn't there at my state school. Acknowledging this difference, I would still challenge you to revisit this statement in a few years. I see you've been accepted- there will be people in your class who attended those brand name schools, and are hundreds of thousands in debt. And they will be at the exact same place you are. It's easy to say that an imaginary 100K you will never have to pay would have been worth it.

It's about more than medicine. I fought tooth and nail (and phoned in a few favors) to get a summer position at Bain. My friends at HYP had entire groups of classmates all working at McK/BCG/Bain. I did engineering research and managed to develop a new tech that we got a patent for. At our location, the funding climate is very poor for VC to explore this idea further. On the coasts, there is much better opportunity to pursue such ideas and entrepreneurial endeavors more fully. In my area of research, I would consider my school very robust. That being said, most Ivy's simply have better resources and can collaborate with ease with anyone in the world if they wish to bridge ideas.

Basically, over the last few years, I've slowly begin to notice the missed opportunities and roadblocks that a mid-tier state school affords. Yes, 100K is a lot, but if you truly leverage your degree, the rewards are much greater in the long run. This may not be so obvious in medicine, where most people sort of end up at the same destination, but even then, a name brand institution can still help in the admissions game for top medical schools.

 

[WingedOx]

I know acceptance rate is not everything but that 40% acceptance percentage for Byrn Mawr indicates that it is not THAT selective (compared to Vandy or WUSTL).

A school like Bryn Mawr is going to have a really high rate of self-selection for some obvious reasons.

You really can't use acceptance rate as anything useful because of factors like this, especially when you're looking at smaller schools, particularly LACs. There's a particular brand of student who is willing to spend 4 years in a place like Gambier, OH, or Grinnell, IA.

*fwiw, I agree with @DokterMom above, though I'm not sure I agree with her definiton of a LAC. A place like Kenyon or Grinnell, sure but not WashU, or Hopkins, which have extensive graduate programs. VASTLY different undergraduate experiences between the two places.

 

[lifetothefullest]

My full ride was to a top-ranked private school, so I still had the "brand name" aspect that wasn't there at my state school. Acknowledging this difference, I would still challenge you to revisit this statement in a few years. I see you've been accepted- there will be people in your class who attended those brand name schools, and are hundreds of thousands in debt. And they will be at the exact same place you are. It's easy to say that an imaginary 100K you will never have to pay would have been worth it.

Also keep in mind that many Ivies have very generous financial aid policies (the benefit of having a huge endowment that earns returns on the order of billions each year) and make it possible for you to attend. In my circumstance (and several others), Princeton made it completely possible for me to attend and what I pay is less than what I would have paid at my state school (even though I had several scholarships). I did turn down a full ride but by the time I graduate, I'll have less than 10 grand in debt. I've been given a great gift and it's a gift that I will be grateful for and hopefully repay throughout my life.

 

[22031 Alum]

I'm talking about students going on to top law schools, top engineering firms, etc.

It's about more than medicine.

I'm quickly learning that this is not the place to respond to questions with answers that relate to medical careers!!