UCSD versus UCI

[Dulcina]

does anyone have any opinions about UCSD versus UCI? I'm mostly looking for pros of UCI over UCSD, as I'm wondering whether or not to cancel my interview (this whole interviewing thing is so expensive! )

Thanks!

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[halekulani]

ucsd in a heartbeat.

 

[Dulcina]

ucsd in a heartbeat.

any specific reasons? area, curriculum, or something else?

 

[efitzpat]

Better area, slightly higher rankings... if I had an acceptance at UCSD I'd stop and take it in a heart beat.

 

[GamjaXnamjA]

I'm not sure about the curriculum and what not but nothing.. and I mean NotHING beats the beach!

 

[chessknt]

UCIs med center has been beaten up lately too. Lots of talk flying around about suspending programs and a huge penalty over some sort of record falsification. UCI is a great school and all and has plenty of perks, but I would never go to it over UCSD due to the area (approx same price as la jolla with none of the advantages) and reputation problems as of late.

 

[MiguelSanchez]

UCI is probably an easier time, and you'll have less competitive classmates. You can probably get a nicer place for less in Irvine compared to UCSD area. And it's closer to LA.

Don't go to UCSD for beaches, or the weather. You're just nit-picking if you say SD has better weather than Irvine/Newport Beach. The med center probably will not make any difference either way during med school.

UCSD has a better reputation (important on residency trail), and probably more access to research, as well as overall better residencies (and a lot of UCSD students stay at UCSD for residency).

 

[mdmarty]

When I drive up to LA I can see the new UC Irvine Medical Center and it looks really nice. I doubt they are facing any type of serious problems and you will certainly get a great education there. But these schools are in different leagues, so your question is a bit odd...

 

[talbo]

i know people who would choose UCI over UCSD, personally both schools are great, however one thing i know is that UCI has (99% sure, correct me if i am wrong) PBL and lecture and UCSD is almost purely lecture (30+ hours of lecture per week), that is one difference, and i think UCI is less competetive, i've heard that UCSD is competetive but then recently told otherwise, but i think it's just things i hear from different perspectives (have heard from both sides), UCSD of course has better reputation for research especially if u wanna do academia, just my opinion

 

[MiguelSanchez]

Yes UCSD probably has more lecture. The 30+ hours is probably a myth though, except in certain quarters. For one, everyone has tuesday and thursday afternoons off (something like that, you have time for elective). I think they count their own PBL/small group sessions as "lecture".

PBL sounds good but at least in my experience is not all that great. For one, you can't really skip them (you can skip lectures at UCSD easily). Also, you are often relying on your classmates to teach you. Now, if your group is terrible, you still have to sit through their bad presentations. If you have a terrible lecturer, you break out your own book and read, you surf facebook and manage your fantasy football team, or you go back to sleep (+/- leaving first).

 

[silverlining1]

UCI is probably an easier time, and you'll have less competitive classmates.

I can't speak to the types of people at UCI, but I can definitely say that the people at UCSD are super friendly and non-competitive. As I've already told Dulcina, people are always helping each other out and organizing class outings.

Don't go to UCSD for beaches, or the weather. You're just nit-picking if you say SD has better weather than Irvine/Newport Beach.

Well, actually, I disagree there - I think that location is a really important factor. Med school is stressful, so you definitely want to have ways to relax, whatever you want that to be. I like that San Diego is in a beautiful area (it's very calming for me) and that there's so much to do in downtown La Jolla and San Diego. I personally don't find Irvine a very interesting place, so I wouldn't be as happy there. (My home is 15 minutes from Irvine, so I do know.)

i know people who would choose UCI over UCSD, personally both schools are great, however one thing i know is that UCI has (99% sure, correct me if i am wrong) PBL and lecture and UCSD is almost purely lecture (30+ hours of lecture per week)

I don't recall what the UCI curriculum is, but if this is the case, then this is a legitimate difference that you should consider.

 

[chessknt]

When I drive up to LA I can see the new UC Irvine Medical Center and it looks really nice. I doubt they are facing any type of serious problems and you will certainly get a great education there. But these schools are in different leagues, so your question is a bit odd...

Seriously, you judge the health of the med center by how it looks as you drive by it? The reason I am aware of problems plaguing it is because I research in a lab associated with the medical center and we see it in our student newspaper when XXX program threatened to be suspended or YYY penalty imposed due to anesthesia falsification etc etc.

 

[MiguelSanchez]

well by competitive i mean people with higher scores. makes it more difficult for one to stand out. people help each other, yes, but when it comes down to it you take your own tests. and i know they keep telling you otherwise, but when it comes to competitive residency programs, this DOES matter.

Now, are you better off being the #1 student at UCI or the #15 student at UCSD, for residency? Probably not much difference, unless the #5 student at UCSD also wants to do derm/rad onc/ophtho/ortho like you.

 

[Dulcina]

well by competitive i mean people with higher scores. makes it more difficult for one to stand out. people help each other, yes, but when it comes down to it you take your own tests. and i know they keep telling you otherwise, but when it comes to competitive residency programs, this DOES matter.

Now, are you better off being the #1 student at UCI or the #15 student at UCSD, for residency? Probably not much difference, unless the #5 student at UCSD also wants to do derm/rad onc/ophtho/ortho like you.

thanks everyone for all the responses! =)

I just found this in an old old thread:

"I'll admit that I was trying to ignore this before, but UCI does have a better match list than UCSD if you are looking at competitive specialties in CA."

They also said that UCI gives 2 months to study for step1 and ucsd gives 13 days. Is either piece of this info still true?

 

[alwaysaangel]

i know people who would choose UCI over UCSD, personally both schools are great, however one thing i know is that UCI has (99% sure, correct me if i am wrong) PBL and lecture and UCSD is almost purely lecture (30+ hours of lecture per week),

No, no PBL here. We have some small group stuff that is nice, but nothing that is truly PBL. And most of the small group stuff isn't required. Our curriculum is just as traditional as UCSD but we have less class. First year you only have class 8-12 most days, 2nd year you have some longer days but more days off to study.

i think UCI is less competetive,

Depends on the people in your class, but in general the admissions committee here does a nice job of weeding out the gunners. So you end up with a really cooperative, non-competitive class. We learn our stuff and help each other. And a few years ago we had the highest step 1 averages in California, so if you meant competitive in terms of that, then you are mistaken.

But these schools are in different leagues, so your question is a bit odd...

I don't know if they're in different leagues. UCSD is definitely more research oriented. But if you're not looking for a heavy heavy research job in the future yes UCSD would be better. Outside of that they really aren't that different. Premeds put a lot of stock into Newsweek rankings...residency directors don't.

UCIs med center has been beaten up lately too. Lots of talk flying around about suspending programs and a huge penalty over some sort of record falsification. UCI is a great school and all and has plenty of perks, but I would never go to it over UCSD due to the area (approx same price as la jolla with none of the advantages) and reputation problems as of late.

The only thing we've had lately was the records from surgeries written before the surgeries. Was it bad? Yes. Is it taken care of? Yes. Do other schools have similar issues? Yup. Difference is for some reason about 20 years ago the OC Register decided they DESPISE UCI. They grab onto anything they can thats bad about us. Makes a big difference when you have a newspaper that hates you. And none of those "scandals" would have any effect on you as a medical student.

 

[MiguelSanchez]

thanks everyone for all the responses! =)

I just found this in an old old thread:

"I'll admit that I was trying to ignore this before, but UCI does have a better match list than UCSD if you are looking at competitive specialties in CA."

They also said that UCI gives 2 months to study for step1 and ucsd gives 13 days. Is either piece of this info still true?

I don't know how you want to look at the match list. I think UCSD does fine in terms of matching into competitive residencies. Might be different now that there is a new dean writing letters, too.

Regarding step 1, yes you only have 2-3 weeks off before step 1, but if that's your goal, it shouldn't be the reason for choosing UCI. For one, the human disease (or whatever it's called) course that you're taking just before step 1 is VERY useful for the exam. Much of it correlates directly with the BRS pathology textbook. And most of the pathology lectures are excellent at tying in physiology with disease states. Plus, you could easily spend the entire 6 months prior to the exam studying just board review material. If you do it smartly and study what you are learning in the med school course, you will EASILY pass the med school exams with minimal extra studying. Then spend the last 3 weeks you have off reviewing and doing qbank.

 

[Dulcina]

I don't know how you want to look at the match list. I think UCSD does fine in terms of matching into competitive residencies. Might be different now that there is a new dean writing letters, too.

Regarding step 1, yes you only have 2-3 weeks off before step 1, but if that's your goal, it shouldn't be the reason for choosing UCI. For one, the human disease (or whatever it's called) course that you're taking just before step 1 is VERY useful for the exam. Much of it correlates directly with the BRS pathology textbook. And most of the pathology lectures are excellent at tying in physiology with disease states. Plus, you could easily spend the entire 6 months prior to the exam studying just board review material. If you do it smartly and study what you are learning in the med school course, you will EASILY pass the med school exams with minimal extra studying. Then spend the last 3 weeks you have off reviewing and doing qbank.

I guess I'm scared about the pace in medschool being so quick that I won't be able to retain the info well enough to remember it for boards, so I thought a month or two before boards would be helpful to cram it all back in there.

 

[mdmarty]

Seriously, you judge the health of the med center by how it looks as you drive by it? The reason I am aware of problems plaguing it is because I research in a lab associated with the medical center and we see it in our student newspaper when XXX program threatened to be suspended or YYY penalty imposed due to anesthesia falsification etc etc.

LOL, like alwaysaangel said, every school has is mishaps. And yes, just like healthier people tend to look better, healthier medical centers also tend to look better. UCSD, UCLA, and UCSF all have fine hospitals. Irvine is trying to do the same.

 

[alwaysaangel]

"I'll admit that I was trying to ignore this before, but UCI does have a better match list than UCSD if you are looking at competitive specialties in CA."

Match lists are useless. They say more about the make-up of a given class than they do about the school itself.

They also said that UCI gives 2 months to study for step1 and ucsd gives 13 days. Is either piece of this info still true?

Don't know about UCSD but here you finish at the end of March and have all of April and May to study for boards. And they host a Kaplan course here which is pretty nice. Probably why our students tend to do so well on Step 1.

 

[lord_jeebus]

I graduated from UCSD and am currently doing my prelim year at UCI. I can only comment on differences in clinical training; and then mainly the differences I see in my department.

I don't think the students at UCSD are any more competitive than the students I see at UCI. I would guess that med students are about the same everywhere.

On the wards, UCSD students worked a lot harder - longer hours, more call, more patients, higher expectations. I do have colleagues who graduated from UCI who are excellent doctors, but I think that the UCSD system pushes you harder and really brings out your full potential.

Doesn't UCSD have 4 weeks board prep time now? It was 3 when I took it. Some may disagree but I think that with a good strategy and work ethic, 2-3 should be enough for almost anyone.

30+ lecture hours/week is a myth. I'm sure the current MS1s and 2s can comment further, but you spend a lot of time in useful problem sessions and labs that reinforce the ~20 hours of lecture (that I didn't go to).

As far as matching, there was only one person in my class who wanted a "competitive specialty" and didn't match in it (and ended up at perhaps the most prestigious program in another field) so I wouldn't read into the lack of fields like Derm, RadOnc, and ENT on the match list - there was minimal interest. A lot of our best and brightest went into family medicine.

Also, UCSD does give you an insider advantage for its residency programs (one of which I am joining next year), and I can't think of any field where I would pick the UCI program over the UCSD program, except Radiation Oncology, which does not have a residency program at UCSD).

As far as UCI scandals, I think they are exaggerated to some extent, and in any event will have zero impact on your training as a medical student.

 

[chessknt]

I am not saying they are critical to the decision, but shrugging them off as nothing is kind of ignorant because UCI had some pretty serious offenses in more than one area. Is it fixable? Yes. Is it something minute that should be ignored? No.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I am not saying they are critical to the decision, but shrugging them off as nothing is kind of ignorant because UCI had some pretty serious offenses in more than one area. Is it fixable? Yes. Is it something minute that should be ignored? No.

Your opinion. Shrugging them off isn't ignorant. The last MAJOR offense was over 10 years ago. The latest thing was a few isolated charts and was remedied. As I said, every hospital has people who do dumb things and they get written up for it. Our mistakes are just publicized by a local newspaper.

Personally, I find it more ignorant when premeds who don't actually know what the offenses were or what they mean claim they would in anyway affect ones medical education. But thats just me.

At any school, your rotations are done at multiple hospitals. There is very little that a hospital can do that would actually in anyway affect your clinical training in 3rd and 4th year. Even if a hospital had an overall bad reputation (which contrary to some isn't the case for UCIMC) that doesn't necessarily say anything about the medical students training or a given residency program.

 

[Jonnymed]

I cant really speak on UCSD, except from what I've heard from other people.

I interviewed at UCI, and I was extremely unimpressed.

Location: Southern CA in general is a drawback (I have my reasons), but Irvine is especially atrocious. It's as if the school bought up a ton of land, plopped down a spread-out school, and it became surrounded by a bunch of rich people. It feels like the school is in the middle of a bunch of suburban housing complexes and apartments.

Curriculum: Too much lecture for my liking. Additionally, why would they still have a "traditional style curriculum" when the best schools are moving toward a more integrated curriculum that, IMO reflects how disease actually occurs?

Tests: Every Monday for your first year. The students will tell you they love that, because they dont have to remember a lot of information. I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that memory retention was an important aspect of being a doctor. Thank you for ruining my weekends UCI.

Medical Center: It sounded like it was 20 min away, and I think you only get to go to one hospital. They never mentioned another hospital to rotate through.

I can't imagine a situation where UCI would be better than UCSD, but then, i haven't interviewed at UCSD.

 

[halekulani]

any specific reasons? area, curriculum, or something else?

i prefer lectures and san diego over irvine

both are fine schools though.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Curriculum: Too much lecture for my liking. Additionally, why would they still have a "traditional style curriculum" when the best schools are moving toward a more integrated curriculum that, IMO reflects how disease actually occurs?

Most schools are still traditional. And lots of people like traditional. There is also new research that shows that PBL isn't really any better. Despite all the first reseach that said it was (shockingly that research was done by PBL schools )

Tests: Every Monday for your first year. The students will tell you they love that, because they dont have to remember a lot of information. I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that memory retention was an important aspect of being a doctor. Thank you for ruining my weekends UCI.

Most mondays, yes. Many students don't like it, but many do. In fact it used to be on Fridays but a class 2 years ago pushed to move it to Mondays. I liked it because it gave you plenty of time to study so you COULD remember it. Makes it less stressful. Plenty of free weekends or Mondays with teeny tiny tests though. I had a long distance relationship for most of my first year and managed to visit him one weekend a month and visit my parents one weekend a month. So its not that bad, but no its not everyone's favorite thing.

The nice thing about it is there aren't any ridiculous blocks of exams where you're panicked and cramming. Plenty of time to study things and focus on one subject and do well. Which is nice.

Medical Center: It sounded like it was 20 min away, and I think you only get to go to one hospital. They never mentioned another hospital to rotate through.

I don't think any medical school in the country only rotates through one hospital. Anywhere. We rotate through 10-15 hospitals/clinics in the area. Including the most exciting recent addition: CHOC!

Not everyone's thing no, if you want PBL this is definitely NOT the school to go to.

 

[JackInTheBox]

Your opinion. Shrugging them off isn't ignorant. The last MAJOR offense was over 10 years ago. The latest thing was a few isolated charts and was remedied. As I said, every hospital has people who do dumb things and they get written up for it. Our mistakes are just publicized by a local newspaper.

Personally, I find it more ignorant when premeds who don't actually know what the offenses were or what they mean claim they would in anyway affect ones medical education. But thats just me.

Not to nitpick, but the problems with the liver transplant program were pretty recent, and it was covered by more than just the OC Register. However, that's not something that's going to really affect anybody as a medical student, so I agree that the recent bad press about UCI Medical Center is probably lower on the list of things prospective students should be worrying about. Besides, even with the recent issues, UCI Medical Center still has amazing programs, and it's the main public hospital for Orange County.

For the OP, I would personally go to the UCI interview with an open mind, especially since it's also a state school for you. I've always seen UCI and UCSD as kind of sister schools, at least for undergrad. They're both relatively new commuter schools (after the first couple of years) in affluent areas, they've both made names for themselves as strong academic institutions, and they both have no exceptional sports traditions like UCLA or Cal, which does affect school spirit somewhat.

I can't speak to the curriculum at either medical school, but as far as activities, recreation, and all that go, SD has Irvine beat hands down.

San Diego has way more things to do than Irvine. Downtown La Jolla, Pacific Beach, Mission Bay, Downtown SD, Balboa Park, SD Zoo and Wild Animal Park, Sea World, etc. Irvine is unbelievably boring after 9, and you can always go to Disneyland, Newport, Laguna, or LA if you feel like driving, but I still think SD has more to offer in terms of nightlife and culture.

 

[Doublecortin]

Your opinion. Shrugging them off isn't ignorant. The last MAJOR offense was over 10 years ago. The latest thing was a few isolated charts and was remedied. As I said, every hospital has people who do dumb things and they get written up for it. Our mistakes are just publicized by a local newspaper.

Personally, I find it more ignorant when premeds who don't actually know what the offenses were or what they mean claim they would in anyway affect ones medical education. But thats just me.

At any school, your rotations are done at multiple hospitals. There is very little that a hospital can do that would actually in anyway affect your clinical training in 3rd and 4th year. Even if a hospital had an overall bad reputation (which contrary to some isn't the case for UCIMC) that doesn't necessarily say anything about the medical students training or a given residency program.

don't take it personaly, alwaysayangel, this is pre-allo forum after all .

 

[alwaysaangel]

don't take it personaly, alwaysayangel, this is pre-allo forum after all .

Haha. I was just trying to stick with the opinion thing, so I meant in my opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own. He thinks one thing is ignorant, I think the other is. I'm well aware of the pros and cons here at UCI, and after you've been at a med school for a while nothing is really personal its just the place that makes you tired and mentally drained.

I really need to study micro, but SDN just seemed more fun and I was right Hope I cleared up some rumors and hearsay, which tend to run rampant 'round here. I'll let you take over Double...time for me to hit the books.

 

[chessknt]

Your opinion. Shrugging them off isn't ignorant. The last MAJOR offense was over 10 years ago. The latest thing was a few isolated charts and was remedied. As I said, every hospital has people who do dumb things and they get written up for it. Our mistakes are just publicized by a local newspaper.

Personally, I find it more ignorant when premeds who don't actually know what the offenses were or what they mean claim they would in anyway affect ones medical education. But thats just me.

At any school, your rotations are done at multiple hospitals. There is very little that a hospital can do that would actually in anyway affect your clinical training in 3rd and 4th year. Even if a hospital had an overall bad reputation (which contrary to some isn't the case for UCIMC) that doesn't necessarily say anything about the medical students training or a given residency program.

I would say you would have to have a pretty strong bias in favor of UCI to completely write off the problems UCIMC has been facing. It isnt just the OC register http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ucirvine26-2008sep26,0,3472273.story

I am not hating on UCI per se (hell I GO here), I just think it is fair to give the OP as much info as possible and having been around Irvine for 3+ years now I have some workable knowledge of how the city works as well as the news on campus issues, one of which has been the shennanigans at the UCIMC. I never implied that it would compromise educational quality.

On that note, UCI hates bikes and wont let you ride them at the undergrad campus (if for whatever reason you need to go there) by stationing police officers on the main thoroughways that ticket you if they see you riding.

 

[RySerr21]

I cant really speak on UCSD, except from what I've heard from other people.

I interviewed at UCI, and I was extremely unimpressed.

Location: Southern CA in general is a drawback (I have my reasons), but Irvine is especially atrocious. It's as if the school bought up a ton of land, plopped down a spread-out school, and it became surrounded by a bunch of rich people. It feels like the school is in the middle of a bunch of suburban housing complexes and apartments.

Curriculum: Too much lecture for my liking. Additionally, why would they still have a "traditional style curriculum" when the best schools are moving toward a more integrated curriculum that, IMO reflects how disease actually occurs?

Tests: Every Monday for your first year. The students will tell you they love that, because they dont have to remember a lot of information. I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that memory retention was an important aspect of being a doctor. Thank you for ruining my weekends UCI.

Medical Center: It sounded like it was 20 min away, and I think you only get to go to one hospital. They never mentioned another hospital to rotate through.

I can't imagine a situation where UCI would be better than UCSD, but then, i haven't interviewed at UCSD.

I interviewed at UCI as well and was extemely impressed.

Location: You are probably teh first person I have ever heard complain about Southern California.

Curriculum: According to students, you arent even in that much lecture. Mostly 8-12 the first year, with more the second year. But its not like its mandatory attendance. If you dont like lecture, then dont go. The way the students described the traditional lecture seemed appealing. Going through the normal phyioslgy/anatomy first year and then the pathophysiology during 2nd year, you are reviewing the stuff from first year as you study...if that makes sense. I also like the fact that they give you so much time to study for boards.

Tests: Yea i agree that Monday tests are kinda lame, but its whatever. As angel said, if you time manage you can do stuff on the weekend.

Medical Center: It was about a 15 minute drive, and its definitely not the only medical center that they rotate through. You should ask more questions.

The thing that impressed me the most were the students. They were unbelievably enunthiastic and helpful. They seemed like they were genuinely happy at their program and all of them stressed the fact they were able to balance their lives. They recently opened a brand new hospital and are building a brand new medical education center that will be open next year. It seems like there a lot of great things to be exciting about, and i hope i am given the opportunity to attend.

I grew up in San Diego, and its really not all that exciting. The novelty will wear off and it will be the same old things, just like anywhere else. The one thing that never gets old is the beach, which you have at your convenience at UC Irvine as well.

 

[chessknt]

Heh, try driving to the med center from UCI Friday at 3:30 PM. Itll take at least 30 minutes. At least. This is why socal sux.

 

[RySerr21]

Heh, try driving to the med center from UCI Friday at 3:30 PM. Itll take at least 30 minutes. At least. This is why socal sux.

no thats why LA county sucks. And its not really that bad. I drove back from my interview at 3:00 and hit very little traffic, and thats driving up the 405, the 110, through downtown, and back on the 5.

why would you be driving there at 330pm on a friday?

 

[chessknt]

The 55 from the 73 to the 5 is god awful during rush hour. And ive had to do it because that is when I am available to be there (ie class until 3). I havent tried surface streets but judging on my other experiences in lovely Santa Ana cityscape, I think ill just stick to the fwy. But yes, LA county is by far worse.

Note that this kind of horrible traffic doesnt exist in most other places

 

[EpiPEN]

Wow, I haven't posted in ages! I blame school as I'm sure silverlining1 can appreciate =P (surprised you had time to post on finals week, haha)

But just wanted to say a late Congrats to Dulcina, and yes, I'd pick UCSD over UCI. We are just better looking over here .

No but honestly, the professors here are okay. I go to class everyday but about 30-40% of people don't show up for lectures because there are some pretty bad lecturers (and some amazing ones as well). But I'm sure that's true everywhere. What's amazing however, is that even if you don't show up for the lecture, there is enough out of class help (tutorial office) and resources (handouts, class notes) to pass the tests no problem. Plus people here have a pretty good pack mentality about being successful together (most of us anyways )

So I'd pick SD because it gives me options on how to succeed and supports me no matter which way I pick.

 

[Dulcina]

Wow, I haven't posted in ages! I blame school as I'm sure silverlining1 can appreciate =P (surprised you had time to post on finals week, haha)

But just wanted to say a late Congrats to Dulcina, and yes, I'd pick UCSD over UCI. We are just better looking over here .

No but honestly, the professors here are okay. I go to class everyday but about 30-40% of people don't show up for lectures because there are some pretty bad lecturers (and some amazing ones as well). But I'm sure that's true everywhere. What's amazing however, is that even if you don't show up for the lecture, there is enough out of class help (tutorial office) and resources (handouts, class notes) to pass the tests no problem. Plus people here have a pretty good pack mentality about being successful together (most of us anyways )

So I'd pick SD because it gives me options on how to succeed and supports me no matter which way I pick.

Thanks EpiPen! Just to let you guys know, I've decided to cancel my irvine interview. It was a really hard decision, but I felt like it was improbable that i would see something at irvine that would "convince" me to go there over SD, especially given the areas of irvine vs SD, so I opted to save the money and time. I hope i made the right choice!

 

[bluesmd]

ucsd has mandatory research thesis to graduate. just a thought

 

[silverlining1]

ucsd has mandatory research thesis to graduate. just a thought

Although Dulcina already made her decision, it is important to know that UCSD's Independent Study Project requirement is very loosely defined - you could develop a lesson plan about healthy eating and present it to elementary school kids, translate informational pamphlets for the large Filipino community, or of course research (whether in the clinic, in the lab, or via surveys). So, you're not required to do "research" in the traditional sense.

 

[bluesmd]

sorry, my bad!