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Ucsf #1?
- Thread starter CaliCPhT
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It's based on complete bull****. A few grads and attendees might come on here and sprout off about how they attract the best graduates or graduate leaders, but it mostly bias supported by an arbitrarily generated list. Many schools around the country excel at this. I got into pharmacy school because I show leadership qualities and I don't even go to a top 25 school. In fact, the average GPA of those entering my non-top 25 school was higher than a wide majority of the top 25 schools.
It's also impossible for all of the finest students in the country to attend UCSF because they grant selectivity towards CA residents. That automatically skews the likelihood that the finest graduates truly come from there. Just the finest CA grads. I'm fine with that assertion. But to come out and say that UCSF is better than any other major land grant institution is idiocy in my opinion.
But don't get me wrong, I'm sure UCSF is a fine, fine school where you will get a great pharmacy education. I don't mean to imply otherwise at all.
The fact of the matter is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to objectively rank the pharmacy schools from coast to coast. The rankings are primarily generated via the opinions of various people throughout the country - deans, distinguished professors, etc. With a profession that is supposed to revolve around evidence-based practice, I find it insulting that US News and World Report would attempt to butt into our profession with such shoddy evidence and proclaim that they are the ultimate in school rankings.
It's also impossible for all of the finest students in the country to attend UCSF because they grant selectivity towards CA residents. That automatically skews the likelihood that the finest graduates truly come from there. Just the finest CA grads. I'm fine with that assertion. But to come out and say that UCSF is better than any other major land grant institution is idiocy in my opinion.
But don't get me wrong, I'm sure UCSF is a fine, fine school where you will get a great pharmacy education. I don't mean to imply otherwise at all.
The fact of the matter is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to objectively rank the pharmacy schools from coast to coast. The rankings are primarily generated via the opinions of various people throughout the country - deans, distinguished professors, etc. With a profession that is supposed to revolve around evidence-based practice, I find it insulting that US News and World Report would attempt to butt into our profession with such shoddy evidence and proclaim that they are the ultimate in school rankings.
even though rankings are stupid and arbitrary...i looked all over for a list on the internet and couldn't find a recent one... and u.s. news and world report charges like $15.00 for it online. anyone know where to find it free online? 😀
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I have it saved on my computer so I can continually mock its uselessness.
1. University of California--San Francisco 4.6
2. University of Texas--Austin 4.4
3. University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill 4.2
4. Purdue University (IN) 4.1
University of Arizona 4.1
University of Michigan--Ann Arbor 4.1
University of Minnesota--Twin Cities 4.1
8. University of Illinois--Chicago 4.0
University of Kentucky 4.0
University of Maryland--Baltimore 4.0
11. Ohio State University 3.9
University of Florida 3.9
University of Wisconsin--Madison 3.9
14. University of Southern California 3.8
University of Utah 3.8
University of Washington 3.8
17. University at Buffalo--SUNY 3.7
University of Iowa 3.7
University of Kansas 3.7
University of Tennessee--Memphis 3.7
21. Virginia Commonwealth University 3.6
22. University of Georgia 3.5
23. University of Colorado--Denver and Health Sciences Center 3.4
University of Pittsburgh 3.4
25. Auburn University--Main Campus (Harrison) (AL) 3.2
Rutgers State University--New Brunswick (Mario) (NJ) 3.2
27. Medical Universtiy of South Carolina 3.1
Univ of the Sciences in Philadelphia-Philadelphia Col of Pharmacy & Sci 3.1
University of Nebraska Medical Center 3.1
30. Mercer University-Southern School of Pharmacy (GA) 3.0
University of Mississippi 3.0
32. St. Louis College of Pharmacy 2.9
University of Cincinnati 2.9
University of Connecticut 2.9
University of Missouri--Kansas City 2.9
University of Oklahoma 2.9
Washington State University 2.9
Wayne State University (Applebaum) (MI) 2.9
West Virginia University 2.9
40. Duquesne University- Mylan School of Pharmacy (PA) 2.8
Oregon State University 2.8
42. Creighton University (NE) 2.7
Samford University (McWhorter) (AL) 2.7
University of Rhode Island 2.7
University of South Carolina 2.7
46. Albany College of Pharmacy (NY) 2.6
Drake University (IA) 2.6
Northeastern University (MA) 2.6
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center 2.6
University of Arkansas for Medicial Sciences 2.6
University of Houston 2.6
University of New Mexico 2.6
University of the Pacific (Long) (CA) 2.6
54. Butler University (IN) 2.5
Temple University (PA) 2.5
University of California--San Diego 2.5
University of Toledo (OH) 2.5
1. University of California--San Francisco 4.6
2. University of Texas--Austin 4.4
3. University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill 4.2
4. Purdue University (IN) 4.1
University of Arizona 4.1
University of Michigan--Ann Arbor 4.1
University of Minnesota--Twin Cities 4.1
8. University of Illinois--Chicago 4.0
University of Kentucky 4.0
University of Maryland--Baltimore 4.0
11. Ohio State University 3.9
University of Florida 3.9
University of Wisconsin--Madison 3.9
14. University of Southern California 3.8
University of Utah 3.8
University of Washington 3.8
17. University at Buffalo--SUNY 3.7
University of Iowa 3.7
University of Kansas 3.7
University of Tennessee--Memphis 3.7
21. Virginia Commonwealth University 3.6
22. University of Georgia 3.5
23. University of Colorado--Denver and Health Sciences Center 3.4
University of Pittsburgh 3.4
25. Auburn University--Main Campus (Harrison) (AL) 3.2
Rutgers State University--New Brunswick (Mario) (NJ) 3.2
27. Medical Universtiy of South Carolina 3.1
Univ of the Sciences in Philadelphia-Philadelphia Col of Pharmacy & Sci 3.1
University of Nebraska Medical Center 3.1
30. Mercer University-Southern School of Pharmacy (GA) 3.0
University of Mississippi 3.0
32. St. Louis College of Pharmacy 2.9
University of Cincinnati 2.9
University of Connecticut 2.9
University of Missouri--Kansas City 2.9
University of Oklahoma 2.9
Washington State University 2.9
Wayne State University (Applebaum) (MI) 2.9
West Virginia University 2.9
40. Duquesne University- Mylan School of Pharmacy (PA) 2.8
Oregon State University 2.8
42. Creighton University (NE) 2.7
Samford University (McWhorter) (AL) 2.7
University of Rhode Island 2.7
University of South Carolina 2.7
46. Albany College of Pharmacy (NY) 2.6
Drake University (IA) 2.6
Northeastern University (MA) 2.6
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center 2.6
University of Arkansas for Medicial Sciences 2.6
University of Houston 2.6
University of New Mexico 2.6
University of the Pacific (Long) (CA) 2.6
54. Butler University (IN) 2.5
Temple University (PA) 2.5
University of California--San Diego 2.5
University of Toledo (OH) 2.5
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UCSF does not take CA residency into account, so you can come from anywhere and they won't care; they're going to take whomever they wish 🙂. I'm not going to argue with the above rankings argument as this topic has been beaten to death, and we can agree to disagree about their legitimacy.
But for my two cents...
UCSF provides one of the best research and clinical opportunities in the nation as it has been a forefront in pharmacy leadership. The resources available at the institution is well known throughout the industry and in academia, giving one rotational exposure that is difficult to find elsewhere; the teaching hospital is one of the best in the world and you have experts across all fields teaching students and including them in the theoretical/practical applications of pharmacy. Institutions that have major teaching hospitals mean that you'll be able to apply more projects you come up with (in policy, protocol/procederes, individual parts of the track program etc). UCSF has a bagillion dollars in grant money that you can apply on research that's not only pharmacologically based but public/pharmacoeconomic policy as well. You'll be able to go on rounds with medical students as a part of a team to diagnose, treat, and learn - all of which is an integrative, yet unique approach to a pharmacy education.
But for my two cents...
UCSF provides one of the best research and clinical opportunities in the nation as it has been a forefront in pharmacy leadership. The resources available at the institution is well known throughout the industry and in academia, giving one rotational exposure that is difficult to find elsewhere; the teaching hospital is one of the best in the world and you have experts across all fields teaching students and including them in the theoretical/practical applications of pharmacy. Institutions that have major teaching hospitals mean that you'll be able to apply more projects you come up with (in policy, protocol/procederes, individual parts of the track program etc). UCSF has a bagillion dollars in grant money that you can apply on research that's not only pharmacologically based but public/pharmacoeconomic policy as well. You'll be able to go on rounds with medical students as a part of a team to diagnose, treat, and learn - all of which is an integrative, yet unique approach to a pharmacy education.
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Over 80% of those admitted are from California, playa. Whether they overtly are selective or not doesn't matter.....
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U.S. News and World Report tells exactly how they get their rankings, so everyone should take it with a grain of salt and realize their is no "lie" about them. I think Carolina is the real #1 school, but that's just my biased opinion.
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I do that at my paltry #32 rated school. They will do that at CAMC when the new U of Charleston school is started and they start rotating. Pitt does that. Ohio State does that. Duquesne does that. In fact...I think everyone does that.
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I based that off of the argument that the top students in the country are drawn to that school, which is commonly presented. That 80% of them come from one state quickly disproves this.
Rankings are useless because objectivity is useless.
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Different hospitals have different resources and levels of involvement in curricula.
Might it also be due to tuition expenses? A lot of people don't want to move out of state when they have a closer location. Also, do remember that CA is a huge state which would produce a lot of applicants. The percentage/number argument you provided is weak in persuasion.
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I personally think nothing trumps pharmacy rotations at rural hospitals. You can't even get that in most locales, yet nobody ever mentions it as cutting edge because it isn't as sexy as working in an uber-hospital in San Francisco. I'm telling ya, it's all conjecture as to what we think is great.
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Nah, not really. My entire point is to show that UCSF does not truly attract the top students. Showing that 80% of their students are from one state would help this argument unless there is some sort of congenital thing going on where people from CA are better pharmacy school candidates. I guess that could be true, hell I don't know, I'm all the way over here a few miles from Pittsburgh.
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You also must consider the point that this is matriculant data, not those who are initially admitted. One point in your argument that seems rather faulty is the assumption that top students cannot come from one state, but there is no point in proving this as we don't have the data. You somewhat contradict yourself in several of your previous posts saying that students with high PCAT scores don't necessarily denote 'top students,' yet you invoke this mysterious definition once again that they aren't going to UCSF. So well me, who are these students and where are they going? If these top students aren't gravitating towards a select few institutions, are they filtering out to every school in rural locales for sheer convenience without correlational significance? It's a rationalization/circular defense where you say that these aren't top students that go to UCSF, but then say that there's no way of knowing what's a top student to begin with.
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why are you so sure that the top students are not among those 80% from CA?
and besides, you're looking at the stat of those have been admitted. Do you know the ratio of state/out of state of raw applicants?
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I'll give you my 2 cents & take it with a grain of salt (put that on the rim of a margarita & you'll be fine😛). I'm a UCSF graduate & have the honor & opportunity to teach there on occasion. I'm not employed as a pharmacist there, however.
In something like the US News & World Report rankings, their numbers usually reflect the amount of grant money the school acquires. Last time I checked, which was a number of years ago, UCSF was far, far beyond other schools. But, there are many other schools in the top 10 which get thousands of dollars & I'm surprised that Ohio State is not in the top five. But, just looking at the top 10 - they are all associated with large teaching & research facilities which goes along with the pharmacy school having the support & to apply for grant money. UCSF shares a campus with a medical, dental & nursing school. All four have grants that either run independent studies or interprofessional studies. Having a school which is tied to a large medical center gives the individual school opportunites which stand alone pharmacy schools would not otherwise have. Also, UCSF is unique in that it has 3 distinct paths - pharmacist education, pharmaceutical science (biopharmaceutics, pharmaceutical chemistry, etc) research & clinical pharmacy research (pharmacodynamic & pharmacokinetics, pharmacogenetics, etc).
So - the rankings get tied, no matter what, with research. But - how does that correlate with being a good school to graduate from as a pharmacist? Well - it may, but as WVU pointed out, very well I think, it may not & I agree completely with him - it does not mean other schools do not train pharmacists to be equally competent with as many opportunities & abilities as myself.
But, if you are a UCSF graduate, you've been exposed to all the standard didactic basic science material & have done clinical rotations. But, you've also been taught by some of those folks in the research departments, so you've been exposed to that. They even have rotations in rural settings - as rural as CA gets, which granted, are probably not as rural as those found in WV or other places. But - thats just CA. The fact that even the outlying communities are not rural would be a negative for some.
As a UCSF graduate, its also be ingrained in you from the start to become a leader - in what, its your choice. But, there is a strong culture that you are expected to take your knowledge & keep it up & use it well. That doesn't mean all of us go on to become Deans, the FDA Commissioner, vice presidents of drug companies or dop's - all of which UCSF grads have become. It just means you do your very best & explore those opportunities which allow you to become more than just a pill filler daily.
Now you know a bit about UCSF - is there a real difference between the graduates & potential opportunities for those from other schools? I've been a pharmacist for a very, very long time (30+ years) & I can honestly tell you NO - there is no difference. I've had the opportunity to work with graduates from all over the country & they are no worse than the worst UCSF graduate (yes - there are UCSF graduates who are horrible) & there are many as competent & in some cases more competent than UCSF graduates. In the real working world, your degree will open doors at the very beginning of your career. As you progress, the doors open more easily if you have a good resume of experience.
I agree UCSF probably takes more graduates from UCs than from anywhere else. Thats because of how UC is structured. We have 3 undergrad UC's which are considered tier-1 schools (on the same tier as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc) & they have rigorous programs. So, a student may be a UC undergrad, but may not have been originally a CA resident - confusing I know.
But, most importantly, I think is - will the school be a good "fit" for you? Take our top 3 pharmacy schools in CA - UCSF, USC & UOP. Their locations are tremendously different. The person who loves UOP & the area might hate USC & Los Angeles. Yet - I've had the pleasure of working with graduates from all 3 of those schools & I'd trust their judgment on an rx for my family.
So...long post, but I hope insightful. I don't think UCSF is better or worst than the best of the nation's pharmacy schools. It was the absolute best choice for me & I'd do it again in a heartbeat. But, don't feel that you're getting a lesser education if you go to another school. Do your very best & not for a grade, but because you need to learn this material to be able to do the best you can in your career. Be a leader in the profession - choose to be the best, no matter the career path you take. Enjoy what you do & get out there & meet graduates from all over the country. We are more alike than we are different.
Sorry for the long post (.....I hope Caverject is not around!!!😳) & good luck ahead!🙂 You're always welcome to pm me if you have questions or concerns.
In something like the US News & World Report rankings, their numbers usually reflect the amount of grant money the school acquires. Last time I checked, which was a number of years ago, UCSF was far, far beyond other schools. But, there are many other schools in the top 10 which get thousands of dollars & I'm surprised that Ohio State is not in the top five. But, just looking at the top 10 - they are all associated with large teaching & research facilities which goes along with the pharmacy school having the support & to apply for grant money. UCSF shares a campus with a medical, dental & nursing school. All four have grants that either run independent studies or interprofessional studies. Having a school which is tied to a large medical center gives the individual school opportunites which stand alone pharmacy schools would not otherwise have. Also, UCSF is unique in that it has 3 distinct paths - pharmacist education, pharmaceutical science (biopharmaceutics, pharmaceutical chemistry, etc) research & clinical pharmacy research (pharmacodynamic & pharmacokinetics, pharmacogenetics, etc).
So - the rankings get tied, no matter what, with research. But - how does that correlate with being a good school to graduate from as a pharmacist? Well - it may, but as WVU pointed out, very well I think, it may not & I agree completely with him - it does not mean other schools do not train pharmacists to be equally competent with as many opportunities & abilities as myself.
But, if you are a UCSF graduate, you've been exposed to all the standard didactic basic science material & have done clinical rotations. But, you've also been taught by some of those folks in the research departments, so you've been exposed to that. They even have rotations in rural settings - as rural as CA gets, which granted, are probably not as rural as those found in WV or other places. But - thats just CA. The fact that even the outlying communities are not rural would be a negative for some.
As a UCSF graduate, its also be ingrained in you from the start to become a leader - in what, its your choice. But, there is a strong culture that you are expected to take your knowledge & keep it up & use it well. That doesn't mean all of us go on to become Deans, the FDA Commissioner, vice presidents of drug companies or dop's - all of which UCSF grads have become. It just means you do your very best & explore those opportunities which allow you to become more than just a pill filler daily.
Now you know a bit about UCSF - is there a real difference between the graduates & potential opportunities for those from other schools? I've been a pharmacist for a very, very long time (30+ years) & I can honestly tell you NO - there is no difference. I've had the opportunity to work with graduates from all over the country & they are no worse than the worst UCSF graduate (yes - there are UCSF graduates who are horrible) & there are many as competent & in some cases more competent than UCSF graduates. In the real working world, your degree will open doors at the very beginning of your career. As you progress, the doors open more easily if you have a good resume of experience.
I agree UCSF probably takes more graduates from UCs than from anywhere else. Thats because of how UC is structured. We have 3 undergrad UC's which are considered tier-1 schools (on the same tier as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc) & they have rigorous programs. So, a student may be a UC undergrad, but may not have been originally a CA resident - confusing I know.
But, most importantly, I think is - will the school be a good "fit" for you? Take our top 3 pharmacy schools in CA - UCSF, USC & UOP. Their locations are tremendously different. The person who loves UOP & the area might hate USC & Los Angeles. Yet - I've had the pleasure of working with graduates from all 3 of those schools & I'd trust their judgment on an rx for my family.
So...long post, but I hope insightful. I don't think UCSF is better or worst than the best of the nation's pharmacy schools. It was the absolute best choice for me & I'd do it again in a heartbeat. But, don't feel that you're getting a lesser education if you go to another school. Do your very best & not for a grade, but because you need to learn this material to be able to do the best you can in your career. Be a leader in the profession - choose to be the best, no matter the career path you take. Enjoy what you do & get out there & meet graduates from all over the country. We are more alike than we are different.
Sorry for the long post (.....I hope Caverject is not around!!!😳) & good luck ahead!🙂 You're always welcome to pm me if you have questions or concerns.
thanks for that ^. it was interesting to read and seemed free from alumni-syndrome. a fair assesment.🙂
No one... I mean no one loves Stockton...
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thanks for posting the list WVU! 👍
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I agree with WVU that the U.S. News rankings of pharm schools is totally useless because they don't even take into account research funding. Their ranking is based entirely on perception, like what the deans of each school think 👎. No wonder it's so flawed. There is another ranking done by a publication called Annals of Pharmacotherapy 😴, and they take into account the flawed US News ranking plus the amount of research money each school gets and the number of publications each school cranks out. They got a slightly different ranking. Here it is, but do take this with a grain of salt:
UCSF 1 1 1 1.0 (#1)
Purdue University 5 3 3 3.7 (#2)
University of Texas 2 11 7 6.7 (#3)
Ohio State University 7 14 2 7.7 (#4)
University of Michigan 3 12 9 8.0 (#5)
University of Arizona 7 4 16 9.0 (#6)
University of Illinois 13 8 6 9.0 (#6)
University of Kentucky 3 20 8 10.3 (#8)
University of Minnesota 5 19 10 11.3 (#9)
University of Florida 7 13 15 11.7 (#10)
University of Southern 18 5 12 11.7 (#10)
California
University of North 7 25 4 12.0 (#12)
Carolina
University of Wisconsin 16 16 5 12.3 (#13)
SUNY at Buffalo 13 15 11 13.0 (#14)
University of Utah 16 2 25 14.3 (#15)
University of 13 9 22 14.7 (#16)
Washington
University of Maryland 7 23 18 16.0 (#17)
Rutgers University 27 6 19 17.3 (#18)
University of Iowa 19 24 13 18.7 (#19)
University of Kansas 21 7 31 19.7 (#20)
I think we can say UCSF is #1 in terms of research funding and publications, but I'm not so sure we can say UCSF is the #1 pharmacy school because there's no way to determine that objectively. It's all based on perception. After all, if you are not going to do any research, who cares about all that research money? The combined ranking by the journal is a little bit better but it's still not great. Even the college football rankings are more legitimate than these pharmacy school rankings.
UCSF 1 1 1 1.0 (#1)
Purdue University 5 3 3 3.7 (#2)
University of Texas 2 11 7 6.7 (#3)
Ohio State University 7 14 2 7.7 (#4)
University of Michigan 3 12 9 8.0 (#5)
University of Arizona 7 4 16 9.0 (#6)
University of Illinois 13 8 6 9.0 (#6)
University of Kentucky 3 20 8 10.3 (#8)
University of Minnesota 5 19 10 11.3 (#9)
University of Florida 7 13 15 11.7 (#10)
University of Southern 18 5 12 11.7 (#10)
California
University of North 7 25 4 12.0 (#12)
Carolina
University of Wisconsin 16 16 5 12.3 (#13)
SUNY at Buffalo 13 15 11 13.0 (#14)
University of Utah 16 2 25 14.3 (#15)
University of 13 9 22 14.7 (#16)
Washington
University of Maryland 7 23 18 16.0 (#17)
Rutgers University 27 6 19 17.3 (#18)
University of Iowa 19 24 13 18.7 (#19)
University of Kansas 21 7 31 19.7 (#20)
I think we can say UCSF is #1 in terms of research funding and publications, but I'm not so sure we can say UCSF is the #1 pharmacy school because there's no way to determine that objectively. It's all based on perception. After all, if you are not going to do any research, who cares about all that research money? The combined ranking by the journal is a little bit better but it's still not great. Even the college football rankings are more legitimate than these pharmacy school rankings.
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This ought to be more depressing...
We'll get you next time!
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Duplicate.
