UCSF v. Duke v. Harvard --Any thoughts?

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Where to attend?

  • UCSF

    Votes: 85 49.4%
  • Duke

    Votes: 28 16.3%
  • Harvard

    Votes: 65 37.8%

  • Total voters
    172
  • Poll closed .

aeneid

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I hope that I receive some replies to this message. I have been blessed this application season to receive acceptances to the above schools. I was hoping some of you undecided or even the decided might provide some insight into the different schools. I plan on attending all of the re-visit weekends to give me a better picture of each school. I'm posting this thread primarily because I feel like there may be some thing I miss in evaluating the schools. I'll shut up now and hope they're some kindred readers out there....

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Congrats on being able to pick from those three! I personally would choose HMS but would need to know more about what factors are most important to you in a med school before being able to offer any info/advice.
 
Hey aeneid, in response to your post on the HMS thread, I believe that UCSF typically has more non-trads. For me, the Duke 3rd year is really attractive, but this probably won't hold true for everyone. As for choosing between the 3 schools, I think location is a big factor. Where are you currently situated and where do you want to end up?
 
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aeneid said:
I hope that I receive some replies to this message. I have been blessed this application season to receive acceptances to the above schools. I was hoping some of you undecided or even the decided might provide some insight into the different schools. I plan on attending all of the re-visit weekends to give me a better picture of each school. I'm posting this thread primarily because I feel like there may be some thing I miss in evaluating the schools. I'll shut up now and hope they're some kindred readers out there....

Congratulations on those fantastic acceptances. It certainly isn't an easy choice to make but you won't go wrong with any of those choices. I'm glad to see that you'll be attending all the revisit weekends. Those were really helpful when I made my decision. While you're at these revisits, be sure to think about your priorities, take a look at who your potential classmates will be, talk to current students, learn about the curricula, explore the respective cities, talk to faculty, etc. Essentially, use these opportunities to gather as much information so you can assess where you'll be the happiest. That being said, I'm sure you can be happy at any of those schools!
 
krelian said:
Hey aeneid, in response to your post on the HMS thread, I believe that UCSF typically has more non-trads.

I'm not sure about the makeup of HMS and Duke, but the current first-year class at UCSF has about 70% of students that took 1year off; the median age is 24y. However, I came in straight out of college and can faithfully say that the most interesting people are the ones that took time off; they've got so much wisdom and knowledge to offer from their amazing life experiences.
 
Thanks krelian, Bear1220, and CarleneM for the congrats! It's pretty exciting no doubt! As for me I've been lucky to live in San Fran for about 3 months and I went to school in Mass, so I feel like I know both cities. They're both great cities. The most important quality for me is the time I spend outside of class. I enjoy exploring the city, getting involved with extracurriculars like intramurals or different cultural activities. Not that I'll have a lot of time for that. I 'd just hate that when I do get that time that I'm sitting around uninspired by my surroundings. The other important quality for me is the type of student I go to school with. On one particular visit (I won't say the school) I felt like I was being "sized up" by my fellow interviewees. Maybe this was just interview-induced stress, but I hope to enjoy the class of students I go to med school with. So I guess the best answer seems to be to wait for the re-visit weekends. I hope all of you will be around so we can meet. Thanks for responding to my message.

Peace and joy
 
I've found that applicants are often quick to base such decisions on reputation and location, but often fail to realize the importance of curricular concerns. I'm not familiar with the particulars of the curricular models at Harvard or UCSF, but given how unique Duke's curriculum is I'd imagine this may play a significant role in your decision. Reputation-wise, you can't go wrong with any of these schools, but one may be a better choice for you in terms of compatibility with your optimal learning style.

For me, being at Duke has been a huge advantage, but it's not for everyone. I'm a big proponent of more "hands-on" or "situational" learning. I didn't want to be stuck in a classroom for an extra year, I wanted to be on the wards putting diseases and pathophysiology into the context of a person instead of a textbook. And the Duke curriculum has left my 3rd year open, allowing me to get a master's degree without having to spend an extra year doing it! I think that's a HUGE advantage. But even if you're not planning on getting another degree, Duke students are able to spend the entire 3rd year doing research, generally leading to publications and a subsequent edge in their applications to very competitive specialties like orthopedics, radiology, plastics, etc. That said, the Duke style of learning is NOT for everyone, so it's really really important to think about this issue. The Duke curriculum puts a LOT of responsibility on the student to read and learn things during the 2nd year that aren't being force-fed in a classroom the way they are at other schools. It takes a degree of discipline to do so, because you're not necessarily being tested on it, and no one's really checking up on you. That said, you'll look like an idiot on rounds, and will likely bomb the shelf exams if you're not keeping up with some reading. But I digress...in any case, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about Duke. Feel free to PM me, or post them here.

I'm glad to hear you're planning to go to the 2nd look weekends at each of these schools. I've found that current students are the absolute best resource for getting a feel for what a school is REALLY like. Good luck with the decision, and I'll see you at 2nd look!
 
Thanks Tommy,

Your comments are very insightful. For me the curriculum is so important as well to my decision. While Harvard will fund pursuit of a master's and UCSF seems murky with funding, Duke has it built in to the curriculum which is such a strong draw! I wonder if you can comment a little more on the intensity of the first year and your relationship with your classmates?

Thanks in advance.

All the best,
John

TommyGunn04 said:
I've found that applicants are often quick to base such decisions on reputation and location, but often fail to realize the importance of curricular concerns. I'm not familiar with the particulars of the curricular models at Harvard or UCSF, but given how unique Duke's curriculum is I'd imagine this may play a significant role in your decision. Reputation-wise, you can't go wrong with any of these schools, but one may be a better choice for you in terms of compatibility with your optimal learning style.

For me, being at Duke has been a huge advantage, but it's not for everyone. I'm a big proponent of more "hands-on" or "situational" learning. I didn't want to be stuck in a classroom for an extra year, I wanted to be on the wards putting diseases and pathophysiology into the context of a person instead of a textbook. And the Duke curriculum has left my 3rd year open, allowing me to get a master's degree without having to spend an extra year doing it! I think that's a HUGE advantage. But even if you're not planning on getting another degree, Duke students are able to spend the entire 3rd year doing research, generally leading to publications and a subsequent edge in their applications to very competitive specialties like orthopedics, radiology, plastics, etc. That said, the Duke style of learning is NOT for everyone, so it's really really important to think about this issue. The Duke curriculum puts a LOT of responsibility on the student to read and learn things during the 2nd year that aren't being force-fed in a classroom the way they are at other schools. It takes a degree of discipline to do so, because you're not necessarily being tested on it, and no one's really checking up on you. That said, you'll look like an idiot on rounds, and will likely bomb the shelf exams if you're not keeping up with some reading. But I digress...in any case, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about Duke. Feel free to PM me, or post them here.

I'm glad to hear you're planning to go to the 2nd look weekends at each of these schools. I've found that current students are the absolute best resource for getting a feel for what a school is REALLY like. Good luck with the decision, and I'll see you at 2nd look!
 
Hi guys,

I'm now in a similar situation, trying to decide between HMS and UCSF. I like San Francisco better than Boston, and a change in scenery would be nice, having lived in beantown for the past 4 years. The curriculum at both institutions are excellent and students seem to be happy at both places. I'm wondering if it's worth forsaking in-state tuition to be at HMS. Also I was also wondering about the cohesiveness of the class at SF, since everyone lives off-campus.
 
aeneid said:
I wonder if you can comment a little more on the intensity of the first year and your relationship with your classmates?

No problem. I was actually pleasantly surprised by the reasonableness of the first year curriculum. To dispel the common myth, Duke does NOT squeeze two years into one. First of all, the Duke first year is longer than most...it begins in late July and only has a summer break of about 2-3 weeks, so it's really a 10-11 month year. Still, there's enough break time to allow you to recharge and relax. Secondly, we don't do much PBL, so it's about half lecture-based and half lab-based. PBL is very inefficient timewise, so I was happy that Duke didn't waste our time with too much of it. I was also pleased with the very early patient contact we had...there's an emphasis on fostering good communication and patient interviewing skills throughout the first year, using standardized patient actors, videotaped interviews, and other such new techniques. It's really a great program!

There have also been many curricular improvements since my first year. Now the entire first block is just straight pass/fail...none of this honors foolishness. Residency program directors don't care about your first year grades for the most part, so I think this is a great feature that allows students to focus on long-term, integrated learning instead of their exam scores. And the material taught in this first block, which is genetics, cell bio and biochem, was mostly on par with courses I took in college, and I wasn't even a science major! This illustrates what I see as one of the great strengths of the Duke curriculum. You don't need a PhD in biochem to be a good physician, so Duke doesn't waste months teaching it. So in about 6 weeks you learn all the genetics, biochem and cell bio you need to be a doc and to do well on the boards. I really like this about Duke...they've perfected the curriculum such that it's trimmed down to exactly what you need to know without wasting your time on peripheral foolishness that you won't remember in a few weeks anyway. The fact of the matter is, you can't possibly learn everything, so Duke focuses on what's most important, and I really think it pays off. This is a common theme throughout the first year, as most of our courses are shorter than what other schools typically do. Yet when I started studying for the boards I found that we'd been taught everything I read in my board prep books. And Duke's Step 1 average is somewhere up in the 230's, so we must be doing something right!

Regarding my classmates, I've been surprised by how cooperative and friendly everyone is. Many of my classmates often study together, help each other, and even e-mailed out their own personal lecture notes and charts to help the rest of us learn the material! After hearing about the competitiveness some of my friends experienced at places like Harvard and Hopkins, I hardly expected students at a top school like Duke to be cooperative, but they really are! Socially, of course certain groups develop over time, but all in all I think Duke classes are pretty close knit. You'll find a group of Duke Med students at a bar in Durham or Chapel Hill on just about any Friday or Saturday night, and it's often large groups! There's more free time in med school than I expected!

Having learned more about the admissions process at Duke, I've discovered that the committee strives to select a diverse group of very interesting, friendly people, who of course also happen to be very intelligent. People with 40+ MCAT's and 4.0 GPA's who aren't very personable or interesting quite simply don't get accepted. And thinking about the composition of my class, I can see why this is the case...it creates a wonderful mix of intelligent people who are passionate about their own particular interests, goals and causes. I can't say enough great things about Duke! I wouldn't change a thing!
 
Duke>=UCSF>>HMS.

Duke's 1-yr. preclinical situation is a HUGE advantage. once you're there, you'll realize that spending 2 years in the classroom sucks. It is a waste of time, has little to do with the real practice of medicine, and is generally boring. By getting into the wards early, you'll have more time to decide on a specialty. Plus with the unique 3rd year situation, you can do hardcore research, assuring publications, posters at national meetings, etc, which will put you in a great position for obtaining a top residency.

UCSF is a great school; clinical training is excellent. I assume you're in-state so tuition will be great.

HMS has the Harvard name but that's about it. They do way too much PBL, think they're the s--t, when in fact most HMS grads are notorious for being clinically unprepared for residency. And Boston is COLD.
 
doc05 said:
HMS has the Harvard name but that's about it. They do way too much PBL, think they're the s--t, when in fact most HMS grads are notorious for being clinically unprepared for residency. And Boston is COLD.

Ouch!

I'd personally go with UCSF. :rolleyes:
 
I've been lucky to live near Boston and SFO, so I know that I'll enjoy both areas. I wonder if any of you can comment on the tutorial/PBL method. As I understand it, Duke does not subscribe to this method of learning. HMS and UCSF have varying degrees of it. HMS on the heavier end. Many people say it depends on your learning style. TommyGunn commented PBL is "inefficient timewise" Can anyone comment on this? I think another important question that may seem somewhat masochistic is: what if any tangible or intangible negatives do the three schools have? Every school has negatives, and every student responds differently to those negatives. The feeling for me is that any negative that interferes with the learning process or creates a competitively-driven set of students defeats the point of developing a strong class of leaders in the medical community. I hope I don't sound too naive about my expectations. I feel after years working in other fields, the best work environments were filled with a collective of people devoted to providing a strong united class of physicians.

Thanks for all of the comments. They will serve me well on my re-visit weekends.

All the best

Ciao
 
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doc05 said:
HMS has the Harvard name but that's about it. They do way too much PBL, think they're the s--t, when in fact most HMS grads are notorious for being clinically unprepared for residency. And Boston is COLD.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Damn! That's harsh!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

(I hate PBL too... ;) )
 
TommyGunn04 said:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Damn! That's harsh!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

(I hate PBL too... ;) )

I guess the truth hurts... :laugh:
 
aeneid said:
I've been lucky to live near Boston and SFO, so I know that I'll enjoy both areas. I wonder if any of you can comment on the tutorial/PBL method. As I understand it, Duke does not subscribe to this method of learning. HMS and UCSF have varying degrees of it. HMS on the heavier end. Many people say it depends on your learning style. TommyGunn commented PBL is "inefficient timewise" Can anyone comment on this? I think another important question that may seem somewhat masochistic is: what if any tangible or intangible negatives do the three schools have? Every school has negatives, and every student responds differently to those negatives. The feeling for me is that any negative that interferes with the learning process or creates a competitively-driven set of students defeats the point of developing a strong class of leaders in the medical community. I hope I don't sound too naive about my expectations. I feel after years working in other fields, the best work environments were filled with a collective of people devoted to providing a strong united class of physicians.

Thanks for all of the comments. They will serve me well on my re-visit weekends.

All the best

Ciao


PBL is more of a marketing gimmick than actually substance. It is only good once you learn from textbook and are able to synthesize info to diagnose a condition a patient have.
 
xadmin said:
PBL is more of a marketing gimmick than actually substance. It is only good once you learn from textbook and are able to synthesize info to diagnose a condition a patient have.

PBL's good to have. It'll help you develop critically-thinking skills necessary for the wards. However, it shouldn't be your primary method of learning. It's just a good supplement...
 
I'm going to have to go with Harvard on this one. The student bodies at all 3 of these institutions are absolutely amazing in terms of life experiences, stats, extracurriculars, etc...so we can't really look at that. The faculties at the 3 schools are also very comparable. Like posters echoed above, I'm guessing this comes to down to what the OP wants in terms of curriculum as well as location. I would go with Harvard just because I like the northeast and can't stand the Bay Area. As for living in North Carolina, I'd rather slit my own throat with a butterknife.
 
Tra La La said:
I guess the truth hurts... :laugh:

Not nearly as much as rejection by way of a badly-written letter.
 
I would personally go with UCSF.

State-tuition at an amazing school, only one of the many reasons to choose SF.
 
eulogia228 said:
As for living in North Carolina, I'd rather slit my own throat with a butterknife.

If you keep all interaction with the locals to the hospital wards, then it isn't nearly as bad. The Duke student body is very elite. It's not going to be terribly hard finding the right group of wealthy friends. Once that's settled, then Durham can be a world of fun. It is easy to forget that Duke is located in Durham. I never see the hicks, but I am told they are about.

And as an afterthought: Duke is ze absolute best school in ze vorld! Surely it's location should be nothing but secondary.
 
I'd pick UCSF or Duke. Better weather. :thumbup:
 
GuyLaroche said:
Not nearly as much as rejection by way of a badly-written letter.

:thumbup:

HMS' was the s**tiest rejection letter ever!

Kinda of sucks they send the same form to all rejects--whether or not they interviewed. Man, I said this before, but HMS needs to get its s**t together.
 
career guidance at ucsf is absolutely pitiful. being a state school, they obviously do whatever they can to get their students into primary care - which includes giving students little time to study for step 1 to get into competitive residencies. when this year's match lists come out, it will be sorely apparent. ucsf did not fare well this year.
 
MrHide said:
career guidance at ucsf is absolutely pitiful. being a state school, they obviously do whatever they can to get their students into primary care - which includes giving students little time to study for step 1 to get into competitive residencies. when this year's match lists come out, it will be sorely apparent. ucsf did not fare well this year.


intersting; hadnt heard the take that they are trying to churn out primary care. Anyone else see this years sf match list?
 
Haybrant said:
intersting; hadnt heard the take that they are trying to churn out primary care.

they aren't.
 
Bear1220 said:
they aren't.

it's a state school. let's just say churning out ophthalmologists to the state's needy and underseved is not in the charter.

the MS1 doesn't believe me, eh?
after your next tri-weekly nausea inducing session of fpc is forced down your throat, go into helen loeser's office and tell her you want to do derm or ortho. you'll see how "supportive" she'll be. i look forward to your reply.
 
GuyLaroche said:
If you keep all interaction with the locals to the hospital wards, then it isn't nearly as bad. The Duke student body is very elite. It's not going to be terribly hard finding the right group of wealthy friends. Once that's settled, then Durham can be a world of fun. It is easy to forget that Duke is located in Durham. I never see the hicks, but I am told they are about.

And as an afterthought: Duke is ze absolute best school in ze vorld! Surely it's location should be nothing but secondary.


I am glad to see you're defending NC and Duke! Since I will likely be leaving the elite northeast for the first time in a long time, it is nice to know that my years at Duke could be relatively "hick-free"
 
MrHide said:
the MS1 doesn't believe me, eh?
after your next tri-weekly nausea inducing session of fpc is forced down your throat, go into helen loeser's office and tell her you want to do derm or ortho. you'll see how "supportive" she'll be. i look forward to your reply.

This is ridiculous! I have felt quite the opposite at UCSF, most faculty and small group leaders have warned us to "avoid the wave" of primary care , and my friends that are interested in family medicine have not found as much support as they had hoped.

Dr. Loeser is not representative of an entire school of medicine. Talk to Dr.s Mitrovic or Lowenstein, and you will get quite the opposite vibe!

I agree they are a public school, but they also want that NIH money and primary care doesn't get that.

And the match list seemed pretty good to me! Why don't you post it and give some proof before you come up with conclusions.
 
Frizzled said:
This is ridiculous! I have felt quite the opposite at UCSF, most faculty and small group leaders have warned us to "avoid the wave" of primary care , and my friends that are interested in family medicine have not found as much support as they had hoped.

Dr. Loeser is not representative of an entire school of medicine. Talk to Dr.s Mitrovic or Lowenstein, and you will get quite the opposite vibe!

I agree they are a public school, but they also want that NIH money and primary care doesn't get that.

And the match list seemed pretty good to me! Why don't you post it and give some proof before you come up with conclusions.

i've seen the match list. why i need to post it to make my point is beyond me. what i do know and what you likely do not are the number of people left unmatched and those gettting their 4th and 5th choices. for a top 10 school, this is completely unacceptable. hms would NEVER have this problem. never.
look at stanford's match list, then look at ucsf's. stanford, the "name" school with weaker clinical facilities and training, always seems to trump ucsf every year in the match, particularly in the specialties.

by far, the #1 complaint of ucsf grads: career counseling is NON-EXISTENT and the faculty don't go to bat for the students in the application process. just as in undergrad, enough cannot be said about the advantages of going to a private institution.

lastly, loeser and her underling backman writes your dean's letter. mitrovic and lowenstein, while nice and supportive, have zero pull or say.
 
MrHide said:
i've seen the match list. why i need to post it to make my point is beyond me. what i do know and what you likely do not are the number of people left unmatched and those gettting their 4th and 5th choices. for a top 10 school, this is completely unacceptable. hms would NEVER have this problem. never.
look at stanford's match list, then look at ucsf's. stanford, the "name" school with weaker clinical facilities and training, always seems to trump ucsf every year in the match, particularly in the specialties.

by far, the #1 complaint of ucsf grads: career counseling is NON-EXISTENT and the faculty don't go to bat for the students in the application process. just as in undergrad, enough cannot be said about the advantages of going to a private institution.

lastly, loeser and her underling backman writes your dean's letter. mitrovic and lowenstein, while nice and supportive, have zero pull or say.

Are you a student at UCSF, MrHide?
 
How much career counseling do you need from administrative folks? The best people to get career advice from are those that are working in the area of medicine that you want to enter. My advisor from my advisory college has been incredibly helpful, and I have had no problem finding mentors in the field I want to enter. Just have to be a bit proactive, which I don't have a problem being. And this whole thing about being pressured to go into primary care is a joke. We get a pretty good balance in terms of exposure to physicians from all fields. I think a lot of people come to UCSF to do primary care, and many actually go into non-primary care fields.

Our most recent match list had (by far) more matches in non-primary care fields than primary care. And the majority of the primary care matches were in categorical medicine and pediatrics. The majority of those people will then go onto fellowships and specialize (not quite primary care.)

The majority of my friends who just matched are incredibly happy about the results. And we did pretty well in some competitive specialties (Anesth: 12, ED: 20, Ophtho: 5, Rad Onc: 4.) We went 2 for 2 in Derm and 3 for 4 in Orthopedics. Historically, not many from here apply to Derm and I don't think we do all that fantastically in matching in Derm either. And we matched at amazing institutions for all fields. I was very much encouraged by the match results as are most of my classmates.
 
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