UCSF vs. Harvard

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UCSF
 
UCSF. why give up a chance to live in the greatest city in the country?
 
UCSF
 
Harvard is the best school in the country. You're INSANE if you pass up a chance to go to Harvard Med.
 
UCSF.

it comes down to location and price (if ur a CA resident). ive been in boston for 4 years as an undergrad, and i doubt id want to study medicine here (cold, humid, rude people, etc.) UCSF is in such an ideal location that i think that would be hard to pass up. throw in a cheap tuition and UCSF would be hard to beat. thats why harvard claims they lose quite a bit of acceptees to UCSF. and if ur talking about rep, theyre both in the very top tier, so ud be splitting hairs if u said one were better than the other in that regard.
 
UCSF
 
UCSF
prestige, friendliness, community involvement/strong sense of social responsibility, amazing new Mission Bay research campus, price (even for out-of-staters, who pay $20,000 first year and in-state tuition afterwards), and....
location location location :clap:
 
Harvard lovers, please go there! (& leave UCSF to us) 😉
 
Well, rina, did you actually already get into Harvard, or are you just anticipating an acceptance in the next week?
 
I can't imagine passing up the Harvard name. However, UCSF is a great school, the best in the west. UCSF is ideal for those who value lower tuition and better weather. As far as prestige goes, Harvard as better overall recognition/reputation. Either way, it's a win-win situation.
 
First my extremely biased opinion would be UCSF.

Harvard does have better name recognition especially in non-medical circles. So if that is you, go for it. You won't be at a disadvantage dropping the UCSF name vs Harvard name in a medical circle though. UCSF will probably end up being cheaper unless you get great financial aid at Harvard. Submit your Fafsa and financial aid apps early so you can factor that into your final decision.

I think West Coast medicine is a little more laid back and less about the hierarchy. Although clinical programs are probably just as competitive at UCSF as they are at Harvard. I kind of dislike Boston. It is either too cold or too hot. The people seem really cold and mean. Boston is diverse, but SF is probably more so. If you want to do research, Harvard is probably better, but you won't lack opportunities at UC. They are two great choices, and Harvard often complains that UCSF is the only school that steals students from them. So I think there is mutual respect and admiration from both sides. Best of luck!
 
Hmmmm...interesting answers to my question. For those wondering, I have not heard from Harvard yet, but as I interviewed there I am simply pondering all options for whatever might come to pass. It definitely is a win-win situation, so this question came more out of curiosity rather than worry! I certainly agree that the factors of cost and location (for CA residents) bias most towards UCSF rather than Harvard. My interest in primary care over research certainly leans the tables to UCSF as well.... We'll see!
 
Hi Rina,

Sounds like you'll be in a good position since you already have an acceptance from UCSF.

Good luck with getting accepted into Harvard. I'd agree with those that say that you cannot give up the chance to have a Harvard medical degree. That will stay with you for the rest of your life and it will open far more doors than any other degree. I dare say, even more doors than a Hopkins degree because it's the most well thought of school... probably in the world.

It also wouldn't surprise me if some posters who want you to go to UCSF are still holding out for Harvard. :laugh:


Originally posted by rina33
Hmmmm...interesting answers to my question. For those wondering, I have not heard from Harvard yet, but as I interviewed there I am simply pondering all options for whatever might come to pass. It definitely is a win-win situation, so this question came more out of curiosity rather than worry! I certainly agree that the factors of cost and location (for CA residents) bias most towards UCSF rather than Harvard. My interest in primary care over research certainly leans the tables to UCSF as well.... We'll see!
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by CatsAreKillers
I'd agree with those that say that you cannot give up the chance to have a Harvard medical degree. That will stay with you for the rest of your life and it will open far more doors than any other degree. I dare say, even more doors than a Hopkins degree because it's the most well thought of school... probably in the world.
Click to expand...

While it may be true that Harvard is thought of as "better" than all the other top 10 med schools in the normal public, I strongly disagree that the harvard name will open more doors for you than UCSF.

the medical community respects the UCSF name just as much as Harvard. Doors dont get opened thru the general public, they are opened thru the medical community. So while it may be true that Joe Public thinks Harvard Med is far beyond and better than any of the other med schools, I would argue that Joe Public has NOTHING to do with opening doors for you in your medical career. Dr. Public has a lot to do with opening doors for you, and he/she is not going to make a distinction between UCSF and Harvard. In other words, they are not going to say, "well this person went to UCSF which is good, but this other person went to Harvard so they are an automatic advantage over every other school"

A lot of people dont understand that the general public's perception of med schools has NOTHING to do with increased career opportunities.
 
Both are great schools. UCSF is definately much cheaper (nobody can argue with that). However, UCSF's name does not carry the same weight as Harvard. Another thing is that they IVY league schools really pamper their students and take care of them.

I went to UCLA undergrad and I have alot of friends that went to both UCLA and UCSF. They told me that they felt a little abandoned by the lack of student support at the schools.

Picture this

..You enter a room full of other students (med and non).

I'm a student at UCSF. <--Med students know that it's a good school but not the non meds.

or

I'm a student at Harvard. <--instant awe (unless of course you go to UPenn which was THE FIRST medical school in the US.):laugh:
 
I didn't even want to contribute to this thread, but I strongly disagree with what UCLA2000 just said. UCSF's student support is amazing. We have advisory colleges, a wellness center, and courses such as the Healer's Art (started here by Rachel Naomi Remen) that do a fine job at pampering. We're Pass/Fail, and the new curriculum is open to many changes initiated by the students here. The student body is really mature and very supportive. I don't agree with the generalization that the Ivies pamper more than non-Ivies. I have some friends at certain Ivy league schools who don't really feel that way at all.

Another thing I'd like to say is that the whole prestige arguement is ridiculous. MacGyver said it pretty well. What the general public thinks about where you went to school has nothing to do with how many doors will be opened for you. And if you choose your medical school based on how much prestige the general public (or a room full of people) feels that your medical school deserves, I'd argue that you have some insecurities. The bottom line is that you have to take into consideration all the factors that make the schools different and then figure out which school you'd rather go to. Where is the best place for you? It is an individual decision. Some students will ultimately decide to attend Harvard, while others will go to UCSF. I think both schools will be very nice places to go and will 'open doors' when it comes to residency similarly.
 
I would argue that all else equal (that you like both schools a lot) the price is the tie-breaker. this depends on if finances are even a consideration (for some people I guess it's not). Education is largely what you make of it and both schools (I imagine, didn't go to Harvard) have excellent resources for students to find what they want to pursue, etc. I think relying on a name is pretty shallow and somewhat dangerous. I still have no idea where any of my doctors went to school. Just one AMAZING doctor that I shadowed...who went to NY Medical College and then UCSF for residency and is now an amazing cardiologist. I mean NYMC got her to a great position (and arguably UCSF didn't hurt). It's because she is great and hard working, etc, not because of where she went to school.

My point is I think it's the person, not the school. and you gotta just go with the place that YOU like and think you will thrive at.
 
Originally posted by UCLA2000
Both are great schools. UCSF is definately much cheaper (nobody can argue with that). However, UCSF's name does not carry the same weight as Harvard. Another thing is that they IVY league schools really pamper their students and take care of them.

I went to UCLA undergrad and I have alot of friends that went to both UCLA and UCSF. They told me that they felt a little abandoned by the lack of student support at the schools.

Picture this

..You enter a room full of other students (med and non).

I'm a student at UCSF. <--Med students know that it's a good school but not the non meds.

or

I'm a student at Harvard. <--instant awe (unless of course you go to UPenn which was THE FIRST medical school in the US.):laugh:
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UCLA2000,

I agree with what you said. However, getting the layperson who knows nothing about medicine to be in awe over Harvard Med will have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your career success or lack thereof.

There is nothing to be gained by impressing the general public except one's ego.
 
mos def ucsf........

top tier...
tuition...
and the area......sf, berkeley and yes even sometimes oakland haha...

the only bad thing is parking...and the congestion......but then again boston isnt heaven either.
 
I wholeheartedly disagree with the above sentiments that the Harvard name will not do any more for your career than UCSF.

For example, look at Dr. Andrew Weil. His entire career and fame is due to the fact he went to Harvard med. Pick up any book he wrote and it will always mention Harvard med on the front or back. Look at any interview with him. The sentence "Harvard trained Dr. Andrew Weil" ALWAYS appears.

His therapeutics are nothing novel, he mostly picks up stuff from other alternative medicine practitioners. The main reason he has become so huge in the publishing industry is because the Harvard name precedes him everywhere.

Now, do not get me wrong, I think that CLINICALLY any US med school will train you more or less as well. But the Harvard name will always be a step up.
 
I agree, we live in a superficial world and although most will not admit it, we are all superficial. Since you are even asking this question, you are superficial like the rest of us, so go with the trusted, brand name Harvard and reap the rewards.
 
Originally posted by Ligament
I wholeheartedly disagree with the above sentiments that the Harvard name will not do any more for your career than UCSF.

For example, look at Dr. Andrew Weil. His entire career and fame is due to the fact he went to Harvard med. Pick up any book he wrote and it will always mention Harvard med on the front or back. Look at any interview with him. The sentence "Harvard trained Dr. Andrew Weil" ALWAYS appears.

His therapeutics are nothing novel, he mostly picks up stuff from other alternative medicine practitioners. The main reason he has become so huge in the publishing industry is because the Harvard name precedes him everywhere.

Now, do not get me wrong, I think that CLINICALLY any US med school will train you more or less as well. But the Harvard name will always be a step up.
Click to expand...

The acclaim that Dr. Weil received from going to Harvard is mostly acclaim granted by the public. The fact that a plump, rotund man with a huge white beard stands before you touting optimal nutrition, preventive strategies, herbal therapies, and integrative medicine intrigues you even more when you read that he is a graduate of Harvard, the epitome of Western thought. "Oh my, look at this holistic medical guru that went to Harvard, but at the same time doesn't represent much of what people stereotype allopathic medical practitioners to be like". If that is the direction that you wish you career to move in, then Harvard may help you out. It will help you sell books, supplements, etc. Much of Dr. Weil's theories are testimonial, and they generally are not met with an incredible amount of respect in the medical community. From what I have heard, he didn't even complete a residency. Instead, after eating a bunch of acid with Timothy Leary and Baba Ram Dass at Harvard, he went to South America in search of Shamans. I think that also elevates the level of intrigue. Don't get me wrong, as a person who has spent years studying Nutritional Biochemistry and Clinical Nutrition, I think that his book 'Eating for Optimal Health' is fantastic. I think out of all the nutritionally-related books out there that Dr. Weil's book is one of the best. However, I don't know anything about his effectiveness as a physician..and I'd argue that his popularity is greater in the realm of Whole Foods Markets than in medicine itself. I think that posts saying that UCSF and Harvard will open up similar doors in the medical community are true, but I also agree with you in that if you go to Harvard it will instantly impress the lay public to the point of deification in many cases. If that is what you are into, then you should take that into consideration. Harvard is a fantastic place to learn, but I know that many of the students at UCSF who turned them down (I never applied and don't think I would have gotten in) did so b/c they felt UCSF was more progressive and wasn't hung up reputation as much.

I think that trying to say one school is better than another is kind of silly. You really have to go to a school where you think you'll be the most comfortable, which will really allow you to take advantage of your opportunities.
 
Originally posted by UCLA2000

I'm a student at Harvard. <--instant awe (unless of course you go to UPenn which was THE FIRST medical school in the US.):laugh:
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Heh - as a Canadian layperson, I couldn't tell between UPenn or Penn State till shortly before I applied to med school! 😀

Wolferman (I think) - for what it's worth, I would go to Columbia only if I really liked the school *itself* better than UWash. I don't think there's enough prestige difference to make it worth 3x the tuition, especially if you're considering primary care and don't particularly wish for a northeast residency. Just my two cents though, and good luck with the decision.
 
Originally posted by Ligament
I wholeheartedly disagree with the above sentiments that the Harvard name will not do any more for your career than UCSF.

For example, look at Dr. Andrew Weil. His entire career and fame is due to the fact he went to Harvard med. Pick up any book he wrote and it will always mention Harvard med on the front or back. Look at any interview with him. The sentence "Harvard trained Dr. Andrew Weil" ALWAYS appears.

His therapeutics are nothing novel, he mostly picks up stuff from other alternative medicine practitioners. The main reason he has become so huge in the publishing industry is because the Harvard name precedes him everywhere.

Now, do not get me wrong, I think that CLINICALLY any US med school will train you more or less as well. But the Harvard name will always be a step up.
Click to expand...

Thats an isolated exception. For 99% of all doctors, the Harvard name compared to the UCSF name will not result in increased career opportunities, unless you want to practice in Boston perhaps.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
Thats an isolated exception. For 99% of all doctors, the Harvard name compared to the UCSF name will not result in increased career opportunities, unless you want to practice in Boston perhaps.
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:laugh:
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
UCLA2000,

I agree with what you said. However, getting the layperson who knows nothing about medicine to be in awe over Harvard Med will have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your career success or lack thereof.

There is nothing to be gained by impressing the general public except one's ego.
Click to expand...
I think there is something to be gained by impressing the general public. In certain fields like dermatology and plastic surgery where patients pay cash up front for elective procedures and have disposable income, the ?wow? factor plays a big role in how successful someone?s practice is. I live L.A. and I know a lot a people who have had things done on them, when I say a lot I mean a lot. These people usually have money, and usually want the best, price is not a factor, and they usually equate Harvard as the best. Most of these people don?t even care where you did your residency they just go ?wow he went to Harvard, I want him.? Even people who aren?t so well off, when they decide to have something done, well still go to what they consider to be the best name brand, they?ll save up their money just to do so. Just look at some of those high end lifestyle magazines like the New Yorker and Los Angeles magazine, you?ll see those docs advertise in bold print Harvard Medical School graduate. And when you go to their office you?ll see some major bling bling.
 
Does anybody actually know somebody who would choose one doc over the other SOLELY because of hte Harvard name?

I doubt it. Only the very rare patient gives a rats ass about that. The vast majority of patients never know where their doc went to school.

About the plastics thing: I highly doubt the rich people in Beverly Hills say "well he went to Harvard so he must be the best" They are far, far more likely to use second hand info, talk to other patients, etc rather than look at where they went to school.
 
Originally posted by Deuce 007 MD These people usually have money, and usually want the best, price is not a factor, and they usually equate Harvard as the best. Most of these people don?t even care where you did your residency they just go ?wow he went to Harvard, I want him.?
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I think you are seriously underestimating these patients. I'm sure they would equate Harvard as the best med school, according to their uninformed layperson opinion. But thats totally different from choosing a doc without knowing anything about him, based solely on where he went to school.

I think the vast, vast majority of patients are more savvy than you are giving them credit for. They talk to their friends who have had procedures done and ask them for recomendations on the best docs out there. If the Harvard name gets mentioned, its only as an abjunct to comments about his strong surgical skills, its certainly not in a vaccuum.
 
Originally posted by mamie
:laugh:
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You are in for a very serious shock if you think that you are going to be on a pedestal above all other doctors SOLELY because you went to Harvard
 
Originally posted by MacGyver


About the plastics thing: I highly doubt the rich people in Beverly Hills say "well he went to Harvard so he must be the best" They are far, far more likely to use second hand info, talk to other patients, etc rather than look at where they went to school. ...I think the vast, vast majority of patients are more savvy than you are giving them credit for. They talk to their friends who have had procedures done and ask them for recomendations on the best docs out there. If the Harvard name gets mentioned, its only as an abjunct to comments about his strong surgical skills
Click to expand...
I do agree with you on this, I never said that they wouldn't. I'm just saying the wow factor is just extra leverage that seals the deal.
 
I think there may be some truth that the Harvard name by itself will impress the public, and that this may translate into some increased career opportunities for very specific career pathways.

However, these career pathways are relatively limited to high cost elective specialties like plastic surgery or dermatology which market specifically to the layperson or other pathways as noted (e.g. writing books to the general public layperson).

Someone wishing to practice boutique medicine, which markets directly to the layperson may also find a subtle advantage with the Harvard name. I would remark that only a very tiny percentage of docs are going to be able to go into boutique medicine, simply because it is a more direct supply-demand economic model than medicine as a whole. Due to the fact that very, very few people can afford boutique medicine, I predict the market for it will saturate shortly, if it hasnt already.

The general public layperson is vastly uninformed on med schools, which is OK, because for the vast majority of people it doesnt matter where their doctor went to med school.

For someone like me going into academic medicine, I would say that the difference between UCSF and Harvard is moot. You will not be marketing your services to the general public as an academic doc (unless you want to write non scientific books) so how the general public feels about Harvard vs UCSF means nothing in this case. For MD/PhD, a far more important criterion would be the strength of the graduate program you wish to get the PhD in. Harvard does not have a monopoly on all the best grad programs.
 
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