UCSF vs. U. Michigan

[thegenius]

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This thread is hilarious. It's similar to arguing over whose composed better music, Mozart of Beethoven; which NFL dynasty was superior, Pittsburgh Steelers or San Francisco 49ers, which BBQ is better, Stubbs BBQ in Austin Tx or Memphis Millies in San Francisco.

To hear some of the flagrant pronounciations that X match list's blows away Y, or A has a better household name than B is really something.

Here's a question, if you forced to ask all residency directors to pick which school UCSF or UMich is more prestigious, UCSF might come out on top. My guess is it won't be a huge margin (maybe 65-35).

If you also ask those same residency directors if that matters, I bet you would get close to a unamious "no."

 

[happydays]

First off, I'm not a pre-med.

Umich may have a federally funded stem cell program, but guess what, they can only work on GW Bush's sucky embryonic cells. Nobody would ever put those damn things in a human, so goodluck with your embryonic stem cell research umich. Also, nobody at umich can use embryonic stem cells other then GW Bush's or they lose all federal funding for stem cell research. BTW, the California stem cell institute is located NEXT DOOR to the new UCSF Research building and $10million is nothing compared to the $Billion/yr california has put towards stem cells. Ultimately, anyone who wants to do embryonic stem cell stuff either has to move California or New Jersey or private industry.

I provided my anecdotal evidence so you umich people could go out and try this yourselves, you'll get the same response, UCSF is second to none. Also, I guess you're calling people at Hopkins unreasonable b/c they felt that UCSF was in fact just as good as Hopkins. And these anecdotal people included 3 different DEPARTMENT HEADS who were also Editor's of prominant journals.

As for the idea that you can't compare match list's, that's ridiculous. You also can't use the argument that maybe all the umich people wanted to stay at umich and actually got their first choice b/c...people are often limited by what they perceive are their options. It is very easy to stay at your home institution, expecially if past students haven't fared well by getting into some of the best programs, i.e. UCSF, Hopkins, MGH, Penn, UCLA, Stanford, Duke etc. So when you umich people apply to residency, and find your dean's saying, "well we haven't historically gotten a lot of people into the best programs, but you can stay here and we're pretty good." This will influence your match list rankings and the possibility of going to Hopkins, UCSF, MGH will seem a lot tougher then you thought. You will then see how people in the academic medicine world perceive UCSF, just wait for residency interviews when you get a big fat rejection pre-interview and you see a lot of your classmates wishing that they could attend UCSF for residency.

If you're not even pre-med, why are you giving pre-meds advice? We're going to MEDICAL school, not public health like you.


Also, you didn't answer my question: if UCSF is on the same level, would you choose it over Hopkins? Why aren't those Hopkins people living at SF, which is a much better place than Baltimore? Come on!

 

[happydays]

This thread is hilarious. It's similar to arguing over whose composed better music, Mozart of Beethoven; which NFL dynasty was superior, Pittsburgh Steelers or San Francisco 49ers, which BBQ is better, Stubbs BBQ in Austin Tx or Memphis Millies in San Francisco.

To hear some of the flagrant pronounciations that X match list's blows away Y, or A has a better household name than B is really something.

Here's a question, if you forced to ask all residency directors to pick which school UCSF or UMich is more prestigious, UCSF might come out on top. My guess is it won't be a huge margin (maybe 65-35).

If you also ask those same residency directors if that matters, I bet you would get close to a unamious "no."

Actually, according to USNews, UMich and UCSF are ranked the same (on average) to residancy directors nation-wide: 4.5

 

[thegenius]

Actually, according to USNews, UMich and UCSF are ranked the same (on average) to residancy directors nation-wide: 4.5

Even better! Then all of this anecdotal evidence that residency directors would prefer to take UCSF students over UMich is hogwash.

 

[infiniti]

Happydays, my response was basically to whoever said UCSF's percieved greatness is due to the vast number of Californians. I was asked about which one is more prestigious and I gave my answer (which was collected from people in the field). Furthermore the quality of research is an important factor (if not the dominating one) for determining a school's reputation. Ironically UCSF also revolutionized the new generation of medical education. Most medical schools have in one way or the other a spin off of UCSF's innovative curriculum. I didn't know this until I interviewed at another great school.

At one of my interviews, we talked about nothing but UCSF. As you can imagine, I was surprised by this. He basically gave me a lecture on how the (now) 100 billion dollar biotechnology industry was spawned by UCSF's invention of how to produce recombinant proteins. This consequently led to production of insulin and the birth of other protein based drugs. He then went on about gene splicing and how most molecular discoveries utilized in the industry were discovered by UCSF faculty. I was thinking "can we talk about your school now"


Someone mentioned Harvard being ranked as 24th in terms of NIH funding. Are you drunk? Harvard recieves almost a billion dollars yearly in terms of NIH funding. The second school recieves a little over half of that. Try making sure your info is correct before posting it.

In the end, does it matter. No! At least not when you are comparing top schools. Regardless of where you end up, you will have to work hard to control your own destiny.

 

[Fireboy]

Gosh... the hostility here is ridiculous. These two schools are both awesome and comparable. Congratulations to anyone who gets into either.

Oh... and I guess I am drunk... from the NIH's own website...

http://grants.nih.gov/grants/award/rank/medttl04.htm

Harvard is 24th in NIH grants. 😛

 

[Mr. Tee]

For my own personal reasons I would choose UCSF...

 

[Rafa]

I'm not a gunner. I don't particularly care about match list rankings or med school rankings or opportunities for research or anything remotely similar to that. Quite simply, I want to go somewhere where I'll enjoy going outside for the next four years. I'd also like to go somewhere where the debt wouldn't rise more quickly than my heart rate when walking by a pretty girl.

If I got into both schools and had to choose between the two, I'd go with UCSF. But it wouldn't have anything to do with any sort of list. I'd pick the UC because I wouldn't mind living in Cali for the early part of my twenties. All these numbers, numbers, numbers you folks keep putting up. Nah. I know there have to be some others like me - folks who couldn't care less about rankings, matchlists, etc. I can't be alone. If you're one of those folks, I hope to see you - wherever we both end up - sometime in the fall of our first semesters. 🙂

 

[infiniti]

Fireboy, I am sorry if I was hostile (no pun intended). That being said, there is a difference between NIH awards and grants. Your table proves my point about UCSF recieving a lot of money from NIH, given its size. Someone else care to explain?

 

[scott858]

I am a med student and also an alumnus of Hopkins Public Health.

Some of these hopkins people wanted to go to UCSF, but they weren't offered jobs.

And b/c Harvard doesn't own hospitals, but has affiliations, a lot of the faculty's grant money doesn't get counted in that. Also, grants, contracts and awards are counted differently.

Finally, I would certainly choose UCSF over Hopkins, like you said Baltimore isn't that great and I've now already lived there for a couple years. And when residency applications come around I'll be ranking UCSF 1st.

"thegenius" you're alias sucks, and I hope you put it on your AMCAS app, so the adcom people can laugh at you.

 

[happydays]

I am a med student and also an alumnus of Hopkins Public Health.

Some of these hopkins people wanted to go to UCSF, but they weren't offered jobs.

And b/c Harvard doesn't own hospitals, but has affiliations, a lot of the faculty's grant money doesn't get counted in that. Also, grants, contracts and awards are counted differently.

Finally, I would certainly choose UCSF over Hopkins, like you said Baltimore isn't that great and I've now already lived there for a couple years. And when residency applications come around I'll be ranking UCSF 1st.

"thegenius" you're alias sucks, and I hope you put it on your AMCAS app, so the adcom people can laugh at you.

When you mentioned UCSF to the Hopkins people, what are they going to say, "yeah, that school isn't even close to Harvard or us." No, these ARE great schools, and they WILL smile and acknowledge that. Even if you ask about Michigan, I doubt any reasonable researcher would say anything else about it. As far as changing schools goes, it's not as hard as you think for a top researcher to go from Hopkins to UCSF.

It's ironic. With you being such an avid UCSF fan, they showed you no love. I sure hope you go to a school in Cali, cuz that "makes it a lot easier to match at Cali." I wish that your dream will come true.

 

[DrRads101]

If you look at this scott858's post history, you will find it pretty ironic that he rips on others for using "anecdotal evidence" to back up their claims.

The best we have to go off of is a nationwide survey of residency directors. Match list comparisons are totally meaningless and any med student in his 3rd/4th year knows this. You can't overcomplicate the issue and say that each class wanted to match in the same schools and was competing for the same spots, especially with two classes that are completely geographically different and have different desires of where they want to live.

Comparing match lists is flawed for two very specific reasons: 1) because naturally you have no idea where these people applied, and 2) there is no objective "rank" of residencies to begin with. If 100% of the students that went to UNC applied to and matched at hospitals in North Carolina, you cannot say this is a "worse match list" than one that matches on both coasts. This match list has NO relevance toward what residency directors think of UNC. Every med student will tell you this, which is why I have a hard time believing scott858 is a med student, and if he is I'm guessing he has been in med school mere months and the pre-med thought process is still on his mind.

US News, as much as I think their list is totally flawed, is the best we have to go off of with how easy it is to match where you want, since they surveyed 20-30% of this country's residency directors. At least it is an apples to apples comparison, and it is nationwide. On a 1 to 5 scale, UMichigan and UCSF both received an average score of 4.5 by this country's residency director's. If you surveyed residency director's nationwide, they would say that UMich and UCSF are EQUALS in terms of prestige.

Naturally though UCSF "blows away" UMich on SDN because this board is chock full of people from California, and people whose world is bicoastal.

 

[scott858]

Where's the responses to my stem cell critique?

This idea that you can't compare match lists is, as I've written, absurd. I have already explained that the top residency programs (Hopkins, MGH, UCSF) are the top programs no matter where you go to med school. Looking at where the students are placing within a speciality and within a geographical area can give you an accurate measurement for how good the school is. Here are some great examples from the umich 2005 match list. ctwickman and happydays, for you two

from http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/match/matchlist05.htm

Agerson - Temple - General Surgery Why not PENN or Hopkins?
Amarnath - Boston U - Int Medicine Why not MGH, Beth Israel, or Brighm's
Chokshi - NYU - Int Mecicine Why not Columbia or Cornell?
Cropsey - Wills Eye - Optho Why not Wilmer at Hopkins?
Holo****z - New Eng Med - Int Med Why not Harvard?
etc.

 

[happydays]

Where's the responses to my stem cell critique?

This idea that you can't compare match lists is, as I've written, absurd. I have already explained that the top residency programs (Hopkins, MGH, UCSF) are the top programs no matter where you go to med school. Looking at where the students are placing within a speciality and within a geographical area can give you an accurate measurement for how good the school is. Here is a some great examples from the umich 2005 match list. ctwickman and happydays, for you two

from http://www.med.umich.edu/medschool/match/matchlist05.htm

Agerson - Temple - General Surgery Why not PENN or Hopkins?
Amarnath - Boston U - Int Medicine Why not MGH, Beth Israel, or Brighm's
Chokshi - NYU - Int Mecicine Why not Columbia or Cornell?
Cropsey - Wills Eye - Optho Why not Wilmer at Hopkins?
Holo****z - New Eng Med - Int Med Why not Harvard?
etc.

Your "stem cell" "argument" is completely an attack verses a knowledgable fact. I dare you to actually COME to Michigan and say that to the researchers. They would just laugh at your face.


Harvard/Hopkins, just like the midwest, tends to inbreed. They match their own people before taking anyone else.


NO one but you is saying that one school is better. Why don't you take a survey of residancy directors nation-wide to find out the truth? Any one person can hype about a school, but we can't rely on that. UMich and UCSF are like Golden delicious and red delicious apples: they just look different on the outside.

 

[dilated]

Where's the responses to my stem cell critique?

This idea that you can't compare match lists is, as I've written, absurd. I have already explained that the top residency programs (Hopkins, MGH, UCSF) are the top programs no matter where you go to med school.

What are you talking about? This is patently false. For example, what is better, an ortho match at UCSF or the no-name UIowa? Oh wait, Iowa is a top 10 ortho program and UCSF isn't even in the top 20. Clearly UCSF is the "top program" there, let's give mad props to someone who matches at UCSF over Iowa.

It's true that the majority of MGH/Hopkins programs are good (though there are still exceptions), but that is a ridiculously small sample size on which to judge anything. Match list comparisons are ******ed.

 

[DrRads101]

dp

 

[DrRads101]

Cropsey - Wills Eye - Optho Why not Wilmer at Hopkins?

LOL, horrible example. Besides the fact that MAYBE the guy would rather be in Philadelphia than Baltimore... Wills Eye Hospital has been ranked Top 3 in opthamology for the past 16 years!

You should just give up man. You will learn soon enough that you can't compare match lists because these are individual choices you are comparing. There isn't some mass mentality that you need to go to Hopkins. That's pre-med stuff. Reality is is that your top 3 is going to look a lot different than the guy next to you. I am NEVER going to apply to Harvard, Hopkins, or UCSF because none of these places are in Chicago. Get it? And who are you to hold this against me, especially when I'll be making just as much money either way.

Speaking of which, according to UCSF's own web site, about 80% of their students match at one of their top 3 choices.

At UMich, that figure is 88%.

 

[dbhvt]

Comparing match lists is flawed for two very specific reasons: 1) because naturally you have no idea where these people applied, and 2) there is no objective "rank" of residencies to begin with.

US News, as much as I think their list is totally flawed, is the best we have to go off of with how easy it is to match where you want, since they surveyed 20-30% of this country's residency directors. At least it is an apples to apples comparison, and it is nationwide. On a 1 to 5 scale, UMichigan and UCSF both received an average score of 4.5 by this country's residency director's. If you surveyed residency director's nationwide, they would say that UMich and UCSF are EQUALS in terms of prestige.

Naturally though UCSF "blows away" UMich on SDN because this board is chock full of people from California, and people whose world is bicoastal.

Yes, yes, and YES.

 

[infiniti]

Back to the original intent of the OP , can more people tell me why they would choose one over the other, without attacking. In other words, why would you for your own unique reasons choose school a over b.

 

[scott858]

LOL, horrible example. Besides the fact that MAYBE the guy would rather be in Philadelphia than Baltimore... Wills Eye Hospital has been ranked Top 3 in opthamology for the past 16 years!

You should just give up man. You will learn soon enough that you can't compare match lists because these are individual choices you are comparing. There isn't some mass mentality that you need to go to Hopkins. That's pre-med stuff. Reality is is that your top 3 is going to look a lot different than the guy next to you. I am NEVER going to apply to Harvard, Hopkins, or UCSF because none of these places are in Chicago. Get it? And who are you to hold this against me, especially when I'll be making just as much money either way.

Speaking of which, according to UCSF's own web site, about 80% of their students match at one of their top 3 choices.

At UMich, that figure is 88%.

Apparently, you're not the type of person who can synthesize information. First off, Wilmer has trained more Chief's of Optho divisions than any other program in the country, they keep track. Second, Wills has been number three, but guess who has been number 1 and 2 the last 16 years: big surprise...Wilmer.

As for your second point about you never applying to the big three, that's why I compared schools in very similar areas, all within <1.5 hrs away. Your last comment about money really showed the quality of your character, I hope it was a joke. If money is your prime motivation, then you're totally screwed for the rest of your life. Here's a reality check for you, the reason people want to go to the big three is b/c that is where they will get the best training. It is where ground-breaking clinical and translational research occurs, where professors are pushing the boundries of patient care. While you may be content being a regular doc, saying "oh, we don't have a treatment for that, sorry, now give me my money" people at H,H,SF want to make medicine better and are in fact changing the standards of care every day.

 

[SeventhSon]

this entire thread is unbelievably ******ed. Is the match-list of a program really going to determine your decision of where to go? Do you really think that among top 10 programs, what YOU specifically wouldn't be a bigger factor than where you go to school? Both programs are well-respected, and if you can stand out at either you will be able to match virtually anywhere. If you get the choice between two awesome schools like that, then you should look at which place will make you happier and more likely to perform, rather than a stupid match list.

 

[DrRads101]

^

Scott858, this is my last post in this thread because I have better things to do than argue with someone who is basing their ENTIRE argument completely anecdotally. Where's the evidence and ruling out the real possibilities in your argument? And you want to be a physician!

First off, why even attack my "character?" This is the first sign that you have nothing to back up your argument. I don't ever remember saying money is my primary goal, LOL. I will give you that you are indeed right that I can't "synthesize" information... I don't make stuff up like you do. It is not prudent to assume medical students on SDN are "stupid," which is what you are implying. I fully understand your argument and I think it is silly, because you are missing several pieces of information which are necessary to even form it...

For instance, that Opthamology resident probably didn't even apply to Baltimore, so saying that he did not get into Hopkins is something you will NEVER know. To make that claim you have now left evidence and reality and entered la-la land. Your flaw, besides the fact that you have NOTHING to back up your claims, is that you assume everyone wants to go to the same schools you do, regardless of where they are located or where they WANT to be located. You seem to think that everyone wants to just get what YOU, and believe me it is ONLY you, think is the most prestigious residency, regardless of family, location, the program they actually LIKE, where their wife feels safe and wants to live, etc. All you have provided us is some "smile" from some faculty member at Hopkins and a question of "why not school X and not the one they matched at." Give us a break.

And what makes it even more pathetic is that those that do not choose your "Top 3" are just "regular docs" who are content in knowing they don't have a treatment for certain people, while those who match at Hopkins and UCSF are here to save the world!

 

[qr321]

I've seen a list of NIH funding, Harvard is not #1. I believe if you added all the hospitals affiliated with Harvard, they are #1 in funding. Harvard Medical School is not #1 by itself. I don't remember which website showed this stat, but Hopkins was #1 in NIH grants.

Edit: Here is the website link:

http://www.residentphysician.com/Medicalschool_rankings.htm

 

[infiniti]

Normally you don't just consider funds given to the "medical school". The funds given to affiliated entities must be considered. In the case of Harvard (or any other major research university), most of the well known publications and discoveries were carried out through affiliations. This is important to you because as a student, the door will be open to you to do research or whatever at these places. It is usually professors (or scientists) at the university that conduct research at the so called "affiliated organizations"

When people talk about so so so School of Medicine. They aren't just talking about the medical school. They are talking about its medically related graduate programs as well as the actual medical school and affiliated hospitals.

I am not very good at explaining things of this sort, but when people refer to the Harvard College of Medicine, this includes MGH, other hospitals, the actual medical school and other affiliated programs. It is for the same reason that USnews.com considers all these affiliations in calculating total NIH grants.

 

[happydays]

Back to the original intent of the OP , can more people tell me why they would choose one over the other, without attacking. In other words, why would you for your own unique reasons choose school a over b.

The people doing the attacking are those with serious issues. (I.e. "Sure you've given me the boot, but I still love you! Take me back!")


Both of these schools are outstanding. The OP just want people to list the personal reasons why they chose one or the other.

 

[graziela]

The thing about UCSF is you'll leave the room in the outer sunset (i.e., wasteland) for which you pay $1300/month (without utilities!) to spend 34 minutes waiting for the MUNI bus to come during rush hour, wearing a wool coat even though it is August. While you're waiting for the bus, a sleek Google Bus with wifi and free snacks and Philz coffee rolls by right on time, picking up your fellow San Franciscans. Sure, you've got beautiful scenery and temperate weather in San Francisco, but the premium you pay for it may not be worth it. Don't underestimate a medical school's endowment. At UCSF, unlike Michigan, you'll pay for your own white coat, equipment, and even anatomy gloves out of your own pocket. If you can get through the winter, quality of life is better in Ann Arbor and U Michigan, which goes out of it's way to pay for things to make students happy. People who haven't lived in San Francisco tend to glorify it. It's not the city it was 5 years ago.

 

[claduva94]

The thing about UCSF is you'll leave the room in the outer sunset (i.e., wasteland) for which you pay $1300/month (without utilities!) to spend 34 minutes waiting for the MUNI bus to come during rush hour, wearing a wool coat even though it is August. While you're waiting for the bus, a sleek Google Bus with wifi and free snacks and Philz coffee rolls by right on time, picking up your fellow San Franciscans. Sure, you've got beautiful scenery and temperate weather in San Francisco, but the premium you pay for it may not be worth it. Don't underestimate a medical school's endowment. At UCSF, unlike Michigan, you'll pay for your own white coat, equipment, and even anatomy gloves out of your own pocket. If you can get through the winter, quality of life is better in Ann Arbor and U Michigan, which goes out of it's way to pay for things to make students happy. People who haven't lived in San Francisco tend to glorify it. It's not the city it was 5 years ago.

If OP needed 8 years to decide I'm sure your input would be helpful. 😉

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's great to know SF was tha bomb in 2001.

 

[NICUfello]

UC Berkeley undergrad
U of M Med School

Felt got the best of both worlds 🙂