Uds

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patient on MSIR tid and methadone tid. GC/MS comes back positive for morphine, methadone and oxymorphone. False positives aren't possible right? He and his wife swear on their lives. Do you guys wean off meds in this situation or give them a warning? I know, I'm being a pushover
 
patient on MSIR tid and methadone tid. GC/MS comes back positive for morphine, methadone and oxymorphone. False positives aren't possible right? He and his wife swear on their lives. Do you guys wean off meds in this situation or give them a warning? I know, I'm being a pushover

No wean. No further rx of opiates.

Zofran and zanaflex and addiction consult. Treat with pt exercises counseling. Add interventional care back if improving from addictionologists notes.
 
Does zanaflex wk good for withdrawal, we use clonidine. But zanaflex makes sense as well
 
No wean. No further rx of opiates.

Zofran and zanaflex and addiction consult. Treat with pt exercises counseling. Add interventional care back if improving from addictionologists notes.

Steve, would you mind providing the details of the prescriptions for zofran and zanaflex when used for withdrawal? I have seen suggestions of 4-8mg TID for Zofran...not sure how many tablets is reasonable.

To continue with the theme of this thread...I am very conflicted as to how to interpret UDS results, given the possibilities of false-positive and false-negatives. Do we trust the patient or trust the test? I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

For example, a patient tested positive for cocaine on Ameritox. Since false positive are possible (although not very likely from what I understand), is there any scenario where I should give the patient a second chance?? I am guessing most would say no...

Another example...I have a patient who had an awful experience with an infected knee replacement, followed by a botched and reinfected revision. Seems reasonable for him to be on opioids. On Norco 10/325 4-6/day (I already tried OxyContin to try to reduce short-acting, but he didn't the OxyContin). Ameritox was negative for opioids. Could it be a false-negative due to individual metabolism? I tried to look up some info on this, but couldn't find much definitive information. I suppose anything is possible. Do I stop prescribing and risk denying treatment of his pain? I can test again, but what if it is consistently negative? Would it be totally irresponsible to document that it could be a false positive and continue to prescribe?
 
Steve, would you mind providing the details of the prescriptions for zofran and zanaflex when used for withdrawal? I have seen suggestions of 4-8mg TID for Zofran...not sure how many tablets is reasonable.

To continue with the theme of this thread...I am very conflicted as to how to interpret UDS results, given the possibilities of false-positive and false-negatives. Do we trust the patient or trust the test? I feel like I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

For example, a patient tested positive for cocaine on Ameritox. Since false positive are possible (although not very likely from what I understand), is there any scenario where I should give the patient a second chance?? I am guessing most would say no...

Another example...I have a patient who had an awful experience with an infected knee replacement, followed by a botched and reinfected revision. Seems reasonable for him to be on opioids. On Norco 10/325 4-6/day (I already tried OxyContin to try to reduce short-acting, but he didn't the OxyContin). Ameritox was negative for opioids. Could it be a false-negative due to individual metabolism? I tried to look up some info on this, but couldn't find much definitive information. I suppose anything is possible. Do I stop prescribing and risk denying treatment of his pain? I can test again, but what if it is consistently negative? Would it be totally irresponsible to document that it could be a false positive and continue to prescribe?

You do not know what you are doing. LCMS confirmation has no false positives or negatives. Dipstick testing is useless. If the results from the lab are negative, the specimen was not of that patient or the patient did not take opiates within 3 days of providing the sample.

Now if you choose to disregard the test and continue prescribing and an adverse outcome arises: death by OD, he crashes into a few school kids at the bus-stop.....you need to lose your license, face civil and possibly criminal charges.

Knew or should have known better. Listen to 101N on opiates. The meds are for a select few for chronic pain and not the majority of folks that ask, demand, or are already on them.

Risk denying treatment of his pain? Tylenol treats pain. Opiates are merely an option and you are being played.

Zofran and Zanaflex are 4mg tid for a week. #21 of each.
 
zofran and zanaflex would be prn.

for the frank withdrawal symptoms, which not everyone gets for more than a day or so, i use clonidine 0.1 mg, assuming the patient's last documented blood pressure on the chart was "normal", or over 120/80.

i dont know about Ameritox. if the initial screen was only immunoassay and no LC/GS was done, then drugs like oxycodone might be negative. hydrocodone possibly could have been "negative" based on the limits set.

oxymorphone should have only come from either Opana or dilaudid. morphine or methadone shouldnt have caused oxymorphone to show up. did the patient have a medical procedure done or go to the ED in the 3 days before your test? if not, then stop and offer non-opioid therapy.

ctts, i never "validate" a positive cocaine result. positive for coke is positive for coke. i do wait for specific LC/GS results for amphetamines (false positive due to MAOIs, specimen too old, etc.), if initial LC/GS screen was positive, although + for meth worries me even more than + for cocaine.
 
You do not know what you are doing.

Thanks...

Seriously though...I do appreciate your input.

LCMS confirmation has no false positives or negatives.

That sounds like a strong statement, that leaves no room for uncertainty or error. Here's something from Pubmed for example which suggests that false positive and negatives are possible even with mass spec:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Ann Clin Lab Sci. 1995 Jul-Aug;25(4):319-29.
Mechanism of interferences for gas chromatography/mass spectrometry analysis of urine for drugs of abuse.
Wu AH.
Source
Toxicology Laboratory, Hartford Hospital, CT 06102, USA.
Abstract
Although gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GS/MS) is recognized as the definitive procedure for confirming positive immunoassay screening results of urine for drugs of abuse, targeted GC/MS analysis does have limitations. False negative results can occur when interfering drugs are present at high relative concentrations. If an interfering drug competes with the targeted drug for the derivatization reagent, low results are produced. If the interfering drug chromatographically co-elutes with the target drug, the ionization efficiency of the target compound by electron impact (EI) ionization may be affected. False positive results can also occur through a number of mechanisms. Two substances with the same mass spectrum require gas chromatographic conditions that enable adequate separation of the compounds prior to MS analysis. In the case of optical isomers, special columns or derivatives must be used for identification and quantification. The widespread use of selected ion monitoring may further limit GC/MS assays. Drugs that produce similar high molecular-weight mass fragment ions could potentially interfere if they have similar GC retention times and if inappropriate ions are selected for monitoring. The conversion of one drug to another by the GC/MS instrument itself is a particularly insidious problem. False positive and negative results have serious forensic consequences and must be recognized and avoided. In contrast, the consumption of poppy seeds or meats from livestock given drugs such as methenolone can produce unexpected true positive results for opiates and anabolic steroids, respectively.

----------------------------------------------


Zofran and Zanaflex are 4mg tid for a week. #21 of each.

Thanks for the info on the meds.
 
Dilaudid can give oxymorphone? In who's world? Never heard of that. Show me where you got that.

Also in response to ctts, coke is coke is coke. I don't think it has many false positives or negatives. That's one of the unique ones. I learned that the hard way in fellowship
 
Dilaudid can give oxymorphone? In who's world? Never heard of that. Show me where you got that.

Also in response to ctts, coke is coke is coke. I don't think it has many false positives or negatives. That's one of the unique ones. I learned that the hard way in fellowship

pardon, my bad... Oxycodone can give oxymorphone. should have said "oxymorphone should have only come from either Opana or oxycodone".

brain fart there.
 
You do not know what you are doing. LCMS confirmation has no false positives or negatives. Dipstick testing is useless. If the results from the lab are negative, the specimen was not of that patient or the patient did not take opiates within 3 days of providing the sample.

Now if you choose to disregard the test and continue prescribing and an adverse outcome arises: death by OD, he crashes into a few school kids at the bus-stop.....you need to lose your license, face civil and possibly criminal charges.

Knew or should have known better. Listen to 101N on opiates. The meds are for a select few for chronic pain and not the majority of folks that ask, demand, or are already on them.

Risk denying treatment of his pain? Tylenol treats pain. Opiates are merely an option and you are being played.

Zofran and Zanaflex are 4mg tid for a week. #21 of each.

I'm calling BS on this. Nothing, is 100% accurate. No matter what the GC/MS lab rep tells you. No test, no X-ray, no MRI, nothing.

The simplest way to get a lab error on a GC/MS or LC/MS lab test is clerical error, ie, the lab tech enters the info on the report wrong, or puts the wrong result under the wrong name. 99.9% accurate is not 100% accurate. That being said you can't allow yourself to be manipulated because a test has a 0.1% error rate.

Also, I'm not going to tell anyone on the Internet how to treat a patient I've never examined or spoken to myself, no matter how clear cut it seems. Speak in generalities? Yes. Tell another doctor what to do or prescribe for a specific patient over the Internet? No.

That being said, I agree that in office UDS dipsticks are very inaccurate, and there is a huge rate of false + and -. Also, it's an error problem inherent in the poor technology of dipstick testing. GC/MS and LC/MS are several orders of magnitude better. But you can never take out the element of human error.

Also, the incredibly high sensitivity can give at some point lead to errors. For example, the test is so damn sensitive that there's been reports of positives from a pill count on a surface where previously different meds were counted and it picks up both meds on the sample. Or, the patient keeps their pills in an old pill box that for a long time had pills of a different type in it, and the test is so sensitive it's picking up low levels from that previous pills. Admittedly, this will not happen 99.9% of the time, and 99.9% of the patients who fail a UDS will claim it did. Don't be stupid. I'm as aware as anyone else that some patients will lie 1,000 times over to get opiates at times and these types of errors are very, very, uncommon.

Also, the history of the patient matters. A patient you know well, that has always been perfectly reliable with no aberrancy is a different animal than one that is very new and unknown to you. An 89 yr old lady, who took a leftover, legitimately prescribe Tylenol with codeine instead of her normal two percocets per day because she couldn't get in to see you the week before you went out of town, with a T#3 prescription showing on her PMP report from 8 months ago, is much different than 30 year old male who walks in to your office for the first time and has cocaine and marijuana on his UDS. The codeine taken by the little old lady can break down into multiple opiates in the UDS. Do you discharge her over this and send her to detox? Or repeat the sample, repeat the prescribing agreement discussion and rules and continue close monitoring?

In regards to the hypothetical new patient with cocaine and MJ in the urine, would I entertain any "false positive" of "the lab mislabeled my urine" excuses? No way.

Clinical judgement and context are everything. Be aware that medication abuse and diversion unfortunately, are much more common than lab errors. Have a high index of suspicion ALWAYS about abuse and diversion, and always address it with the best interest of the patient and your license in mind. If you make a reasonable decision based on the clinical scenario and document your reasoning, you should be fine. If you ignore an inconsistency, make an unreasonable decision or don't document your reasoning, then you invite trouble from lawyers, medical boards and other people whose jobs are to punish people.
 
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I have had grandmothers and grandfathers test positive for pot and coke. I had the hospital chaplin test positive for coke.

Context matters, but should not grant automatic absolution.
 
I have had grandmothers and grandfathers test positive for pot and coke. I had the hospital chaplin test positive for coke.

Context matters, but should not grant automatic absolution.

Agree. There's little context that can explain those results away.
 
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