uhs students, nova kids need your help

[Staring@theSun]

To any UHS students. I understand that your administration tried to install a mandatory attendance policy for all classes and that you reversed this decision. At Nova we a facing the exact same situation where our attendance will be taken pre/post every class and any missed classes will result in points being subtracted from our grade.

I was wondering what your class specifically did to reverse your attendance policy and what you guys feel worked best to change it.

THANKS for any help you can offer

---

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[Heeed!]

Another NSU student wants to know as well!!

 

[LovelyRita]

Someone from the class of 2005 would probably answer it best b/c I think that the persuasion came from their class (we were still pretty new at the time.)

Admin. initiated enforcement of the dress code (i.e. wear white coats + dress clothes or scrubs---& "we're watching you") and they enforced the attendance policy by taking attendance at least right before the first lecture. Not after, though.

Then the attendance "enforcement" was dropped (they reminded us, however, that the policy still exists!) but the dress code is still "being enforced". (that's all I'll say 'bout that).

I'm sorry, but I don't know the exact means by which the class of 2005 persuaded them. I'd like to think that it was too much extra manpower for the secretaries to do it every day, but honestly I don't know.

Any UHS 3rd years out there who care to add? (or 2nd years?)

 

[drchris33]

I am not a third year, but I will give me take on the situation. I believe what they did was some of the students in like the senate and other leadership roles in the class took their case to the administration and explained why the attendance policy needed to be revoked. Some people just learn better on their own and if you present it in the idea that they will be hindering some of the class' learning, then that might do the trick.

Also it takes time for someone from admin to come down and take attendance on 240 second years and 230 first years, so they will be saving time in that aspect as well.

Again, I do not know what I have said to be fact, but I think that was the general idea behind the ordeal.

Hope that helps.....Good luck!

-C

 

[DrSmiles]

Someone from class of 2005 told me that they overturned it because several people bombed the first neuro exam in the beginning of the year (when they first started the enforcement). They reasoned that this was because they had to be in class all day, with no free time to study. Then they took it one step further and said that this could be a likely indicator for how they will perform on the boards, especially since so many students skip class around board exams, and I think that clinched it.
Whatever the reason I am SO glad we no longer have an enforced policy because it is likely that I will be one of those students next year who needs the extra study time for boards, and therefore I might be missing a lecture or two.

 

[BagOfDoughnuts]

Just visted Finklestein Aud. today! The dreaded card readers have been installed there and the wiring is up in Steele and Morris
Looks like we will be swiping in and out . . . soon. I thought the admin was bluffing.

While I'm not in know - its seems SGA govt. is trying to neogiate favorable terms rather obliterating the policy (i.e. how much class can we miss before grades go down?)

Hopefully Nova will stop short of exploding radio collars.

- Bag, Fellow NSU COMer.

 

[Robz]

I never get the reasoning that you should be forced to go to class. If you paid the 32K+ a year to go there and are becoming a professional then you should be treated as such. I just don't get it unless they had lowered test scores in the last few years and they want to enforce their scores for the betterment of the school.

 

[Heeed!]

Maybe the admin. will change the policy when they realize that many of us probably won't be good representatives of the school when we leave. I don't think I could encourage anyone to come down here for school with such a policy. I imagine once word gets out to applicants, the only people that will go to NSU are those that couldn't get in somewhere else = lower board scores, etc, etc.

 

[LovelyRita]

I had to decide b/w LECOM & UHS and LECOM's "big brother" swiping system turned me off for sure and contributed to my decision to come to UHS. No regrets. BTW, I go to class most of the time, and when I need to, I skip guilt-free.

Just curious, what other schools out there (DO or MD) have such a system? Does anyone know?

 

[Echinoidea]

I don't think I could encourage anyone to come down here for school with such a policy. I imagine once word gets out to applicants, the only people that will go to NSU are those that couldn't get in somewhere else = lower board scores, etc, etc.

I just got an interview invite from NSU, and I'm declining it for just that reason. It's also why I would never go to LECOM. Luckily I was accepted to my 1st choice, which has none of this nonsense.

In the interview packet NSU sent me there is a contract that you must sign stating that you understand the dress code and attendance policy. FWIW, if I'm going to indebt myself up to 200 grand, I think I deserve the right to dress how I want to, and decide when I'm too sick to stay home. The administration should realize what a turn-off this is to applicants who were considering Nova.

 

[Heeed!]

In the interview packet NSU sent me there is a contract that you must sign stating that you understand the dress code and attendance policy. FWIW, if I'm going to indebt myself up to 200 grand, I think I deserve the right to dress how I want to, and decide when I'm too sick to stay home. The administration should realize what a turn-off this is to applicants who were considering Nova.

Echinoidea, PLEASE make sure you let the administration know the word is out about their new policy and it's the reason you don't want to come here. If enough people give them feedback, maybe they'll loosen up on those who already have the NSU meathooks in us.

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by Echinoidea
FWIW, if I'm going to indebt myself up to 200 grand, I think I deserve the right to dress how I want to,

Actually I think the dress code wasn't that big a deal for us when we went to NSUCOM. They never really enforced it... I mean, how hard is it to show up to class in SCRUBS?!?!? I think it is unprofessional for a medical student to go to "work" in a t-shirt and shorts, be it lecture or anywhere else where you are representing your profession.

Q, DO

 

[DoctorShaR]

Just to set the record straight if any NSU hopefuls are reading this post. The reason the attendance policy is in place because it is the belief of the administration and the President of the AOA that being booksmart is not the only factor in being an excellent physician. Let's be honest about this...would you rather go see a physician that spent all of his time with his head in a book or cooped up in the library all the time and had absolutely no people skills or would you rather see someone who has the knowledge along with a knack for communication? Of course there are those out there that "think" they are excellent communicators and can establish a rapport with anyone, but there is something that going to class and interacting with people in the profession, from different backgrounds (racial, religious, economic, sexual orientation or otherwise) that helps to mature your people skills. In interacting with my classmates I have learned viewpoints that I had never considered, how to tolerate people who just drive me crazy and I have learned so much about different life experiences that I would not trade for the world. If you have to take a day off here or there or if you get sick there is room for leniency.

Medical school is like a job, you can not go to work whenever you want to and dress however you want to. There is a protocol in every profession and we are being trained in that protocol and at self-discipline early. The dress code is not that bad. You can wear everything short of thongs and pretty much get away with it. Just like anything you know when and where not to push it. If the dean is coming in to talk, be in dress code. How hard is it to wear scrubs every day or for those so inclined to dress up, which I must say for women is much more lax than for men.

 

[Heeed!]

I get little to no interaction with my classmates for 50 minutes out of every hour during the day. I agree, we need to be personable, well-rounded, etc. The best way to achieve that, though, is not to be forced to attend class all day. The best way to discover each other's view points, culture, etc. might just be to sit in the library all day with 10 other people. I don't think the NSU attendance policy takes into account how different people learn. I've got an idea: the administration starts treating us like adults (gasp!), and letting us TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for our education. Doctors are responsible. How about letting us learn a little about that principle before we're thrust into clinical situations where we'll have to assume responsibility, regardless of whether or not we've learned it. I feel certain the administration won't be "helping" me when I'm seeing patients while sporting a 60% cotton, 40% polyester white coat with "DO" after my name. I wish they would stop "helping" me so much now.

 

[normalforce]

I am a member of the class of 05 at UHS. Here is what happened. The Dean of our University initiated the policy at the beginning of the 2002 academic year. The policy lasted about 5 weeks. The reason that it was reversed was because of the overwhelming student dissatisfaction of the policy. Moreover, many of the professors were unhappy with the policy. With the continued complaints from both students and faculty, the Dean reconsidered the policy and eventually changed it. In the handbook, it says we are supposed to attend at least 90% of class. But, most people rarely did.

Normalforce

 

[LovelyRita]

I think it's interesting how the professors were unhappy.

But it makes sense; I mean wouldn't you rather be speaking to an audience of, say 150 that has some general interest in your talk than to 250 people of whom perhaps there are some there sleeping, reading the newspaper, sitting with headphones on, studying other subjects,etc.?

And yes, med school IS somewhat like a job in that there are responsibilities, BUT most jobs you earn money, not pay money!! Interesting that med school is trying to teach personal etiquette as well as medicine. I used to have a full time+ on call job. I know what it means to go to work every day. So at this point, I don't need an attendance policy to teach me these "values".

It seems like they are trying to reinvent the wheel somewhat. Does the AOA feel as though there is some lack of professionalism or ability present in the field that is proven to be stemming from people not showing up to class? If so, the NBOME and FDA should probably get involved in this!

I hope this works out for the best for you guys.
M.

 

[MOZ D.O.]

as a member of nova's class of 2005, i'm guessing that the motive behind the attendance policy has to do with my class's poor performance on the step 1 of comlex. word on the street that we only had an 88% pass rate which is not the best anyone's standards. i guess the administration feels that our poor performance is linked to our poor attendance. oh well. i hope the m1/m2's can handle being in class all day.

MOZ DO

 

[Heeed!]

as a member of nova's class of 2005, i'm guessing that the motive behind the attendance policy has to do with my class's poor performance on the step 1 of comlex. word on the street that we only had an 88% pass rate which is not the best anyone's standards. i guess the administration feels that our poor performance is linked to our poor attendance.

It's frustrating and puzzling that the admin. would come to that conclusion. I would hope the conclusion they would draw is they prevent us from studying from 8-4 or 8-5 every week and need to let us study more. Does the admin. believe your class scores would be significantly better if they required attendance at 15 hours of lecture a day? On the other hand, I'll bet the class scores would actually improve if people were allowed to study all day and only be required to go to labs.

 

[BagOfDoughnuts]

"But it makes sense; I mean wouldn't you rather be speaking to an audience of, say 150 that has some general interest in your talk than to 250 people of whom perhaps there are some there sleeping, reading the newspaper, sitting with headphones on, studying other subjects,etc.?"


This is exactly what happens when the attendence policy is enforced (at least at NSU). You can't hear the lecturer over the soft roar. Lecturers get p.o.'ed with the class because people are sleeping in the front rows, etc . . It's gets bad at times.

I sincerely hope DoctorShaR is right and this will have SOME benefit for future because I am not really seeing it right now. Lots of interaction occurs amongst my classmates, just most of it occurs during the lectures.

End Rant.

 

[RockandRolldoc]

A chicken and Egg are lying in bed together. The Egg lights up a Cigarrette looks over at the chicken with utter dissatisfaction and mutters, " Well, I guess we know the answer to that question."

Whether Studying is really a supplement to lectures or whether Lectures are a supplement to studying is nothing but a dead end chicken and egg argument. Let's not even explore it because Dean Silvagni has his mind made up. What's lousy is that only 50% of the lectures that he has so much faith in are actually Satisfactory, another half of those can be gonsidered Good, and a tenth of those are really excellent. If he's gonna put so much faith in lectures, they better start scrutinizing the curriculum and it's counterparts with the same vigor as they are the students daily attendance and study habbits. If all of these lectures were helpful, I'd have no problem attending all of them.

I think the school is great and has potential to be even better, but it looks like we're going in the wrong direction. If I were applying this year, I would look at this and think, " The powers at be at Nova care more about filling their auditoriums with bodies than they do about the quality of the education. Also, for a professional school, they sure do not seem to treat the students as professionals."

I can assure everyone here that the class of 2006 will do everything possible to make things right.

 

[Amra]

Let's cut some of the BS PLEASE... gawd knows there is enough...

DoctorShaR wrote:

Just to set the record straight if any NSU hopefuls are reading this post. The reason the attendance policy is in place because it is the belief of the administration and the President of the AOA that being booksmart is not the only factor in being an excellent physician.

President of the AOA? Where does he come into play here? If this were the President of the AOA - this would be a policy implemented AT ALL OSTEOPATHIC SCHOOLS (his juridiction).

This is a LOCAL admin CHOICE. As a matter of fact, this is only supported by 3 of the administration - THE REST HAVE OPPOSED IT.

Let's be honest about this...would you rather go see a physician that spent all of his time with his head in a book or cooped up in the library all the time and had absolutely no people skills or would you rather see someone who has the knowledge along with a knack for communication?

but there is something that going to class and interacting with people in the profession, from different backgrounds (racial, religious, economic, sexual orientation or otherwise)

How in gawd's name does going to class help your communication skills? By listening to instructors drone on about something that is better explained in a book? Increase social skills? We had classes for that... remember ETHNOCULTURAL MEDICINE? Remember the rest of those 'seminar' courses? The "knack" for personal communication learned in a class room? What planet are you from? (yes, that is an intentional movie reference).

Medical school is like a job, you can not go to work whenever you want to and dress however you want to.

MEd school IS NOT A JOB. Medical *SCHOOL* is a learning experience (at least in theory).

Most "JOBS" do not require you to attend lectures for 20-30 hours per week - then expect you to MASTER the material presented during those "sit downs." Hell, they even PASSED A LAW FEDERALLY THAT STATED RESIDENTS COULD ONLY WORK 80 HOURS PER WEEK.

And speaking of jobs, how many "jobs" in the current era include people working from home? Home offices are even a tax deduction - therefore must be quite a popular choice.

And BTW, how many medical SCHOOLS WEB CAST their lectures for students? Hmmm... I'll give you a clue, there are a few of 'em and one is 20 minutes south off I-95.

BTW, I *DO* support the dress code. People act differently when they are dressed differently. That is even scientifically documented (read psych journals). Besides, scrubs are really torture to wear (sarcasm there).

we are being trained in that protocol and at self-discipline early.

I laughed so hard I feel off the chair. Self-discipline? Mandatory attendance is called BABYSITTING. Self-discipline is the ability to control yourself and NOT make posts like this (BTW, I'll keep everybody posted if I get "punished" for this post - which is possible).

DoctorShaR: what is your role in this? So far, you're you're adding to the MIS-information.

Wanna find some really interesting statistics? Compare NOVA's attendance and grades for classes past. Guess what? Yes, you are correct...

MOZ DO wrote:
as a member of nova's class of 2005, i'm guessing that the motive behind the attendance policy has to do with my class's poor performance on the step 1 of comlex. word on the street that we only had an 88% pass rate which is not the best anyone's standards. i guess the administration feels that our poor performance is linked to our poor attendance.

WHY is the big question that no one is asking. Why implement a drastic policy change (AND YES, this is a policy CHANGE - an EXISTING POLICY would have been ENFORCED since DAY ONE - BTW, w/c was pointed out to me BY an administator).

Let's e honest with ourselves AND ESPECIALLY THE INCOMING STUDENTS! BTW, how would you feel if I bulls*ted YOU during your interview tour and lunch? You would resent ME and YOUR CHOICE of medical schools. If it is the school policy that a wipe-card system is now in effect - TELL THE INTERVIeWInG STUDEntS. Don't hide it. Reveal in the truth! Represent your school honestly
in it's good and bad.

What are the lasting implications of this swipe card system? Well, you're pissing off 2 years worth of students (2006 and 2007). You are giving amusement to the Class of 2005 and 2004 ("thank gawd I'm outta there!"). For the class of 2008/9/10... well.... NSUCOM will still fill the seats (afterall, people attend foreign countries for med school) - YET THE QUALITY OF YOUR APPLICANT IS GOING TO GO DOWN DOWN DOWN. Similiar to Echinoidea, good applicants are going to go elsewhere simply to get away from the bull.

Now do I hate NSUCOM? No. I still think it is a good school. Some of the faculty are extremely top notch (no one has all top notch faculty) Good rotation sites. Great location. Only thing that keeps NSUCOM from being a GREAT school is bullsh*t like this that they pull off....

-Amra

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by DoctorShaR
there is something that going to class and interacting with people in the profession, from different backgrounds (racial, religious, economic, sexual orientation or otherwise) that helps to mature your people skills. In interacting with my classmates I have learned viewpoints that I had never considered, how to tolerate people who just drive me crazy and I have learned so much about different life experiences that I would not trade for the world.

You're a dufus. I get the same "life experience" by interacting with my peers by going out and have a beer with them after a test or getting waste-o on Red Bull and Vodka on a Friday night.

Mandatory attendance is just bad bad bad and those students that are PRO mandatory attendance are the gunners that feel that since they "have to" go to class everyday because that's "how they learn" then everyone else should have to go to class because its only fair. People are different learners.

Krap I wish I learned sooner that I didn't need to attend classes as much my second year, I would have had a much better time (skipped enoguh classes but I could have skipped 60% of htem and STILL scored what I did on boards and class rank).

Q, DO

 

[H0mersimps0n]

*looks down at LECOM badge*

dress code = suck it up

Though I have to say I DEFINITELY understand the problem with taking away points if class is missed. There needs to be some laxity there. Even at "STUFFY" ole LECOM has a "manditory" policy, they only seem to come down on you if you are failing. Then your ass is theirs and especially if you are LDP and "signed on" to go to lecture.

Don't like lecture? it's called PBL or ISP... don't have that at your school? hmm now LECOM doesn't seem all that bad eh lol

 

[DoctorShaR]

The two above post from Amra and Quinn are quite interesting. It reinforces my point about why one needs social interaction from people with different beliefs. Just because someone feels differently about an issue than you do doesn't mean that you should demean them and call them a "dufus". I am so sure that I would want to go to a doctor that thinks that just because I believe something different from him/her or see things from a different viewpoint that my views are any less valid than theirs. As far as Brian making the statement about the attendance policy being a local administration thing I agree. I was not saying that the President of the AOA mandated the policy I was just saying he agrees with it.

I understand both sides of it. The new policy does need some adjustment, it is important to see and understand both sides in the matter.

Not to comment on the childishness of your post Amra... that I should have self-discipline and not haved posted. Are you serious or what, all your "education" has done nothing for your ability to not always think that you are right and look down on other people. If you were on such a high pedestal like you like to think that you are and knew how everything should be ran at NSU maybe you would not have had to remediate a class last year.

 

[RockandRolldoc]

I like wearing scrubs... I think they're very flattering to my Junk.


Furthermore, DoctorShar whoever you are, that comment is way out of line, no need to get personal here, especially to someone who has given countless hours of his time to make the lives of the students at Nova easier, more enjoyable, and just better. Amra was stating his opinion and that he thought yours was wrong. I'm sorry to tell you that he is right. Sitting in a lecture hall where you are supposed to be quiet, unless you're being disrespectfull to the professor, is not a way to become more social. Social skills are something that you should have picked up a long time ago before you proudly put on that white coat with the blue patch. Look, I know you're proud of the school and want to defend it at any and all costs possible, but honestly, you have to look at reality. This attendace policy is just flat out bad for the school and the students. It's unfair to students who learn by different means than just spoken words; since you will get points for attendance, it's unfair to the students who studied the material hard and learned it because it gives points to people they didn't earn, and takes points away from people who might be the hardest workers in the class. But your argument that forcing people to sit in class is beneficial for their well-roundedness as a human being is just crazy man...just plain crazy. I agree with the dress code, I do not agree with forcing people to plop their asses in seats, and I definitely do not agree with your logic on why they should. I think you were out of line in your comments to Amra, and I think you should apologize publicly and prove that you're a good man.
By the way, I love NSU and I want it to be all that it can be, and for this to happen, a radical change in thinking has to happen from the top down... the students are too busy to have to think about this stuff, and it sucks that we always have to watch our back like this because the three stooges upstairs, who have lost touch with the reality of being a medical student IMHO are making policy decisions in the interest of their own ego's.

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by DoctorShaR
The two above post from Amra and Quinn are quite interesting. It reinforces my point about why one needs social interaction from people with different beliefs. Just because someone feels differently about an issue than you do doesn't mean that you should demean them and call them a "dufus".
...
Let's be honest about this...would you rather go see a physician that spent all of his time with his head in a book or cooped up in the library all the time and had absolutely no people skills or would you rather see someone who has the knowledge along with a knack for communication?

Listen ShaRonda, whoever you are, YOU need to get off your pedestal. I know that as a glorious M1 you must know what makes a good physician and what doesn't, I mean, you've already taken three months of clinical practicum, right?!

Going to class has NOTHING to do what will make a great physician. Just because you feel the need to go to class everyday doesn't mean everyone else should. Let THEM make their own decisions about how they will spend THEIR tuition money and their time. Try not to smirk as you see people upset about the attendance policy.

Dufus dufus dufus.
Q, DO

 

[DoctorDoogie4]

Ok.......my perception on the damn attendance policy....

A) I think it's hogwash because everyone has their different style of learning. Some people do better sitting in class than they do outside in class. Personally, I do better sitting at home reading rather than going to class. Medical school is a place where RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE take their actions into their own hands and do what they do. If we werent somewhat responsible and compulsive about learning and succeeding, we wouldn't be in medical school.

B) As a result of this strict mandatory attendance policy, the quality of applicants will go down. People get miffed about Ohio U.'s contract about staying in Ohio for practice. Who knows what other applicants say about NSUCOM's attendance policy? For us to make us a better school, we must select better applicants. Those better applicants, which a few I have talked to, have already made a negative desicion about NSUCOM.

C) Board scores are not related to how well a student attended class. I have not seen or heard a study that links board scores with class attendance. If board scores are so low, wouldn't the administration think. How do other medical schools with no attendance policy do well on boards? "What is wrong with our lecturers?" ;"What is wrong with the students we are selecting?"; "What can we change in the curriculum to induce an environment and learning style that is conducive to efficient learning?"; "Are the textbooks we are using top quality?"

D) Screw the President of the AOA. I am so fed up with the AOA as are other DOs in the field. The AOA has no business invoking or help giving the idea of an attendance policy at a school. I hate to say this but the AOA may need to look at their AMA counterpart and take some notes.

 

[Heeed!]

A few of us were talking in anatomy lab tonight about how we might get the attendance policy changed. Some people thought that we should just refuse to swipe our cards, or give them to one person to swipe for a bunch of us, or swipe it and walk out the back, etc. Someone said the admin. might listen to the Benjamins. Maybe we should all write letters saying when we finally graduate, we don't plan on giving any $ back to the school when we're making those big DO dollars. I found that idea interesting. Any comments?

 

[DoctorInSpace]

I personally don't care about the attendance policy. Besides, I think it would be very easy to work around it. I would rather swipe a card than have to sign my name, because I can always give my card to a friend, or I can swipe a friend's card for them. And no one else can really sign in for me. And yes, you can always swipe and leave. They can't guard all of the doors to make sure that once we swipe we actually stay in the classroom.

I'm very happy at NSU and really have no complaints. There may be things that I wish were different, but no place is perfect. If I were unhappy w/the dresscode or attendance policy, which i found out about at my interview, I would have chosen a different school.

As for the dress code------it really doesn't matter, because on a daily basis I see the midriff's of some of my classmates, if not much much more. And none of them have gotten in any trouble. Sure, if you know you are going up to the office of one of the deans or administrators, you want to be in dress code, but i see no enforcement of the policy at all. We are supposed to be in code for all exams, and at this morning's physio exam, i saw lots of people in flip-flops, which are against dress code. And they could still sit for the exam.

Personally, I love scrubbs, and wear them almost every day. It is just easy for me. Some days I would love to just wear jeans, but I save that for the nights or weekends, and it makes me feel like a real person again.

I understand not everyone learns best in the classroom, and the schools should be more understanding. Obviously we wouldn't all have gotten where we are if all of us learned the same exact way. Besides, doesn't each school claim to want diversity, and aren't study habits one more way each of us shows our individuality?

In any case, I'm not about to switch school over an attendance policy or dress code. I love my school, am doing well, and will just roll with the punches. My main focus is on the actual school work, or at least i try to keep it that way. I just hope none of my friends have any problems in the future because they learn better outside of class.

Oh, one more thing. Since we are in school all day long, the only time we can do things like doctor appts, dentist appts, etc, is DURING CLASS HOURS! The schools need to be reasonable and realize that even the "gunners" may need to miss class at times. I have had to skip a few classes here and there to get to a few doctors for various reasons (NOT a gunner, btw). I guess if they start mandating the swiping of cards, i'll just give mine to a friend if I have a doctor appt. I mean, i'm not going to get a note each time I need to get my teeth cleaned and have the absense excused. It isn't worth it.

That's my opinion on the matter. I think that the swipe cards will not work AT ALL anyway because too many people will give their cards to their friends. The money spent will come back to bite them in the .......

 

[Amra]

Obviously, DoctorShaR, you're looking for a "heated verbal discussion" - otherwise, you would not have taken the below the belt shot at me. Actually, considering that other people have made similiar posts in desent of your views, yet you chose me to "pick on," we can probally say you just don't like me as a person. This seems furthered evidenced by your knowing my real name and nick, my educational background, and that you know I'm opinionated. Okay, should I lose sleep at night or do you?....

Posting the fact that I had to remediate a class - that itself is childish, and I hope you grow up a tad before actually having people's lives in your hands.

For the record, yes I had to remediate a class last year. Guess which one? Radiology - a 8 hour 0.5 credit course. Am I going to be a bad doctor now? Please.

Not to comment on the childishness of your post Amra... that I should have self-discipline and not haved posted.

Actually, if you read what I said, I was referring to the lack of self-discipline on MY part - not yours.

and NOT make posts like this (BTW, I'll keep everybody posted if I get "punished" for this post - which is possible). [emphasis added]

Are you serious or what, all your "education" has done nothing for your ability to not always think that you are right and look down on other people.

Obviously, you don't know me that well.

If you were on such a high pedestal like you like to think that you are and knew how everything should be ran at NSU

I don't even PRETEND to know how everything should be run at Nova. TBH, I don't WANT to know... I am fortunate enough that certain people respect my opinion and with that I've offered suggestions for improvement. Bottom line: I'm not afraid to have an opinion and I'm not one to always say "yes" to someone just because they wear a suit. Sometimes my opinions are taken - more often they're not used. At least they are heard...
I've learned from last year that my PURPOSE in being at Nova is to be a medical student - not a politican or preacher.

MY biggest biatch about your post is that it is so chock-full of MISinformation it is a disservice to all the APPLICANTS that are reading this. Choosing a medical school is probably the BIGGEST decision most people will have to make (up to this point in their lives). These applicants should be informed to the truth - not sugar coated or not BS'ed.

The two above post from Amra and Quinn are quite interesting. It reinforces my point about why one needs social interaction from people with different beliefs.

Ummm...

I understand both sides of it.

As stated, the only thing you've been accurate on so far in everything you've said is me having to remediate a class. Similiar to the "mud slinging" that occurs during a political election (Go Arnold!) - those acts do nothing to uphold your credability nor strengthen your argument. If you want to take more low-blows at me - feel free. I'm not ashamed of who I am or where I've been or where I'm going...

I'm curious... why are you hiding behind the anonominity of screen names? At least I have the courage to face my "accusors" head on in sickness or health, 'til graduation do we part....

-Amra
a/k/a Brian Schmidt
MS2, NSUCOM
[email protected]

The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off. -Gloria Steinem (1934- ), Activist and Feminist Writer


P.S. I wondering if anyone outside of rockandrolldoc the "significance" of the 'What Planet Are You From?' movie reference? BTW, it is a good movie. hint: pay attention to what Tim Allen is taught in the beginning of the movie v. what he teaches in the end about human interaction...

 

[Amra]

Quinn-

Is it me or are you also having flashbacks of the old ADRIANSHUE posts from a few years ago?



-Amra

 

[NotShorty]

I never get the reasoning that you should be forced to go to class. If you paid the 32K+ a year to go there and are becoming a professional then you should be treated as such. I just don't get it unless they had lowered test scores in the last few years and they want to enforce their scores for the betterment of the school.


Word.

You aren't going to excel in med school by missing class, and if you do, that's fine too! We're adults, right?

Down with "big brother"

 

[RockandRolldoc]

Well said shorty, especially for a buckeye....

 

[Amra]

Back to the issue at hand (not me)

give them to one person to swipe for a bunch of us

That, similiar to having someone 'sign you in', according to the Student Handbook, is grounds for an appearance before the University Progress Committee. Be careful - that is one place you don't want to be...

when we finally graduate, we don't plan on giving any $ back to the school

Actually(and unfortunately), this is rather common already. Not just DO yet other programs as well.

-A

 

[DoctorInSpace]

Wow, flashbacks to this past summer, if you are an NSU M1. ARguments over a web forum. I'm staying out of this one.

I did see a card reader in Steele yesterday......just waiting for the day when I have to be accountable for my every move.

Hmmmmm, Progress Committee.....didn't think about that. And NO i don't want to be there. I guess I was just thinking that swipe cards are more anonymous and there wouldn't be a guard there watching to make sure we only swipe our one, individual card.

We shall see what happens.............

I honestly feel bad for people who learn better at home because I feel they are being punished for knowing how they learn best. I'll be in class though----I've always learned better being there. But we are all adults, and know what is best for ourselves. And yes, I'll second "Down With Big Brother."

Amra.......good talking to you yesterday afternoon. I also sent you a message on the NSUCOM website

 

[DrQuinn]

Don't bet that they won't have someone from administration to come down and watch you guys swipe. When they did have attendance for us, they had two people from admin come down and hand out the sign in papers. Althought hey would only od this once a week or so, they were like hawks and wouldn't allow any funny business. It will be even easier for them to watch people swipe. How in cognito can you be swiping 10 cards at once?

Q, DO

 

[DoctorShaR]

Amra,

I am not hiding under anonominity, I am just posting under my screen name. As Quinn has already stated he knows who I am and he is in residency and no longer in attendance at NSU. I DO apologize about my under the belt statement it was not NICE nor professional. It was made in the heat of argument and it was WRONG. I do not have a personal problem with you, you have never done anything personally to me for there to be any. I just feel that you should not put someone down (intentionally or NOT) just because they feel differently then you do. That is probably not what you meant to do. but it was the feeling that I and others got. There is no doubt that we are ALL appreciative of the time and effort that you have put into making our transition and life at NSU easier!!!!!!

IMO you do have some valid points but I just think that you could be more effective and make much more of a difference if you put them across in a different way. Yes, we want to educate people who are thinking about attending our school, but we should do so in showing both sides of the argument, which was what I was TRYING to do. Unfortunately, it turned into what it did. I must also apologize to the other participants in SDN, what started out as a post to try to get ideas about what we could do to change the policy, turned into a waste of everyone's time. It could have turned into a very informative post stating the pros and cons. I would rather take time out of everyone's day to discuss what we can do to decrease the huge disparity that exists in healthcare and disease in minority communities (something that is true to my heart) than for what I did.

Apologetically yours,

ShaRonda Alisha Shaw-Berrocal
NSUCOM Class of 2007

 

[Staring@theSun]

Whoa,

I didn't realize I'd piss so many people off through this post but in a way I think it shows an important point. Whether you are for or against the policy many people aren't so the question really is can we come together as a class and as a school to actually do something about this? Apparently UHS was successful through sticking together. The simple fact is if we all hang together on this there is nothing the adminstration can do about it. I hope we can do this, I think it will really say something about us and about Nova as a whole.

Also I think anyone reading this post should be aware that Nova, like ALL schools has its faults. It also has alot of great qualities and, most importantly, AMAZING potential in what it could do. I hope this attendance issue allows us to come together and actually help some more of that potential be realized.

Thanks everyone for there responses and remember, in the words of our 43rd president "the key to victory is strategery."

 

[LovelyRita]

Originally posted by DoctorShaR
As Quinn has already stated he knows who I am and he is in residency and no longer in attendance at NSU.

Quinn is a girl.

Here we go.

....just observing this thread from a distance....
M.

 

[Shinken]

Actually, Quinn is a "he". Don't let the avatar fool you.

 

[RockandRolldoc]

Don't worry Quinn, I respect you for whoever you are, and I would never judge you solely based on your Androgenous lifestyle on SDN .

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

Obstet Gynecol. 1994 Aug;84(2):311-3. Related Articles, Links


Is there a relation between student lecture attendance and clinical science subject examination score?

Riggs JW, Blanco JD.

Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences, University of Texas Medical School at Houston.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether there is a relation between lecture attendance and factual knowledge of obstetrics and gynecology, as measured by the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME) clinical science subject examination. METHODS: We analyzed data on 197 students completing 8-week obstetrics and gynecology rotations from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992. Each student was expected to attend a weekly lecture series, and each completed the NBME clinical science subject examination at the end of the clerkship. Student attendance and board scores were correlated at the end of the academic year overall and by subgroups. Scores in the top and bottom 15% were defined as good and poor performance, respectively. RESULTS: A negative correlation (r = -0.1738, P = .0146) was found between percent absence and examination score. The odds ratio for poor performance was 5.48 (95% confidence interval 1.3-26.5; P = .015) for the subgroup of students with more than 30% absence compared to those without absences. Odds ratios for scoring in the upper 15th percentile were not significant. CONCLUSIONS: The negative correlation and the high odds ratio for poor performance suggest the value of monitoring attendance and identifying students at risk for poor performance (more than 30% absence). Lower absence rates did not predict performance.

PMID: 8041553 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


For more pro-attendance policy crap go to pubmed.gov and search for "class attendance"

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

J Pak Med Assoc. 1999 Feb;49(2):30-3. Related Articles, Links


Lecture as a mode of instruction in undergraduate medical education.

Najmi RS.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Fatima Jinnah Medical College, Lahore.

OBJECTIVE: This study was carried out to determine the place of lecture as a mode of instruction in undergraduate medical education by examining the views of the students about some selected aspects of the lecturing sessions and their ability to recall the varying percentages of the content of the delivered lecture after a specified period of time. METHODS: An observational cross sectional study was carried out in which the final year students of Fatima Jinnah Medical College for Women, Lahore belonging to sessions 1995-1996 and 1996-1997 participated. The study comprised of two parts; first was administration of a questionnaire containing the questions regarding students' opinions about the lectures attended, duration of lecturing sessions and comparison between lecture and clinical classes. The second part consisted of two surprise tests examining the ability of the students to recall the subject taught in a particular lecture after one week and one month intervals. RESULTS: According to 74% students lecturing sessions were not beneficial. Only 12% students remained attentive throughout the lecture their reason being ineffective and boring presentations and 55% participants wanted the existing duration of the lecture period to be halved. Clinical sessions were considered to be superior by 79% respondents. About 34% to 35% students could recall more than 50% of the content of the delivered lecture after one week and 20% were able to do so after one month. CONCLUSION: Consideration should be given to the feedback received and follow up studies should be carried out so that appropriate changes in the curriculum could be induced in order to ensure the effectiveness of the lecture and to avoid wastage of resources and time and to justify the place of lecture as a mode of instruction in undergraduate medical education.

PMID: 10513433 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Finally some anti-attendance policy support!!

Actually go read through all those that come up under "class attendance" at pubmed.gov because there are some very interesting articles on the subject....maybe our admin will practice evidence based teaching if enough of the research supports our view.

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

Originally posted by DoctorShaR
The two above post from Amra and Quinn are quite interesting. It reinforces my point about why one needs social interaction from people with different beliefs. Just because someone feels differently about an issue than you do doesn't mean that you should demean them and call them a "dufus". I am so sure that I would want to go to a doctor that thinks that just because I believe something different from him/her or see things from a different viewpoint that my views are any less valid than theirs. As far as Brian making the statement about the attendance policy being a local administration thing I agree. I was not saying that the President of the AOA mandated the policy I was just saying he agrees with it.

I understand both sides of it. The new policy does need some adjustment, it is important to see and understand both sides in the matter.

Not to comment on the childishness of your post Amra... that I should have self-discipline and not haved posted. Are you serious or what, all your "education" has done nothing for your ability to not always think that you are right and look down on other people. If you were on such a high pedestal like you like to think that you are and knew how everything should be ran at NSU maybe you would not have had to remediate a class last year.

Who is this kid who sounds so uncouth? Word is its just some bitter M2 wannabe. Perhaps someone just left their computer on and their child made a post. Seriously, we need to know who you are so we can be sure to never send patients your way, as you seem to have an issue with confidentiality and such.

 

[Heeed!]

Read the whole thread, Slingblade.

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

Noted and corrected

 

[Heeed!]

No worries.

 

[Amra]

this thread died quick.... better known as bump

 

[DoctorInSpace]

This is just second hand information, but per a friend who had lunch w/the Dean of NSU, the attandance policy will stand as is, with us having to swipe in eventually. My friend said that the Dean said we all signed attendance policies when we interviewed, and that we will be held to those. My friend got the feeling that there will be no compromising.

Again, this is only second hand info. I don't know if something so pressing might come up that will make the Dean reverse his decision in any way, as has happened at other schools. I don't know what the timeline is for mandatory card swiping or how they will enforce it and how many classes we can miss before we start having problems.

But I just wanted to share what little I do know, which is that our mandatory attenance policy will stand and be monitored. This is apparently a very sore subject for the administration, especially due to some students who approached them in a less-than-professional manner.

So, we will let the rest of the world know when we will be swiping in every hour.

And my own opinion....i'm very happy with this school, and attendance policy or not, I am glad I chose to come here. No school is perfect for everyone, so if you are choosing a school, please let this be only one of your considerations.

 

[kristing]

I'm an MS3 at AZCOM. We have no attendance policy for the first 2 years (well- actually a clinical class at the end of the 2nd year has one for some reason, go figure), and NO DRESS CODE. Gawd, no. And we have the highest board passage rates - last year's was 98.5% for COMLEX 1 and 100% for COMLEX 2. (At least that is what I hear from our administration.)

Our high board scores are based on the QUALITY of THE INSTRUCTION and the fact that our administration and faculty work with us to better the school. The good teaching cinches it. Plain and simple.

Just my 2 cents. I feel for all of you people. I would never go to a place with mandatory attendance or a dress code. Not because I wouldn't follow both anyway, but because it shows the administration has their priorities whacked - they are paying people to police you. Your tuition is going to pay these people. I would be so PO'd with that if it were my tuition dollars.