IrishHammer

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So, the ACPE came to my school yesterday to ask about student perception of the school and the program. At one point, they asked what one act we would carry out if we were the Dean for a day. My kneejerk response was to call out a professor who I and many of my peers believe should not be a teacher. Her lectures are frequently full of wrong information, her time management skills are terrible, and she lectures with a terrible chip on her shoulder.

This didn't go over well with other students at the school, particularly several of the P-4's in attendance who have made some rather inappropriate comments towards me since then. By the way, the only other answer given by someone about if they were dean for the day was to enforce the dress code more strictly. This led to a solid ten minutes of various students talking about how wonderful the dress code is and how greatly improved Wegmans School of Pharmacy for having it. So, let's see if I've got this straight. An inferior professor has nothing to do with the quality of the school, but we'll all be damned to hell if we don't spend four years learning how to put on a shirt and tie everyday?

Does anybody know of other new schools where this has happened at these meetings? I really expected this meeting to be about what students thought could be done to better the program, not to suck up to ACPE in order to come across as the "model pharmacy school".

At this point, the post Mike had about why US Pharmacists are so prone to abuse is running rampant through my head. Don't ever complain about the school. Complain about the students not being worthy of the program, complain about problems that are common among every school, but don't you dare bash the curriculum or faculty.
 

minette

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So, the ACPE came to my school yesterday to ask about student perception of the school and the program. At one point, they asked what one act we would carry out if we were the Dean for a day. My kneejerk response was to call out a professor who I and many of my peers believe should not be a teacher. Her lectures are frequently full of wrong information, her time management skills are terrible, and she lectures with a terrible chip on her shoulder.

This didn't go over well with other students at the school, particularly several of the P-4's in attendance who have made some rather inappropriate comments towards me since then. By the way, the only other answer given by someone about if they were dean for the day was to enforce the dress code more strictly. This led to a solid ten minutes of various students talking about how wonderful the dress code is and how greatly improved Wegmans School of Pharmacy for having it. So, let's see if I've got this straight. An inferior professor has nothing to do with the quality of the school, but we'll all be damned to hell if we don't spend four years learning how to put on a shirt and tie everyday?

Does anybody know of other new schools where this has happened at these meetings? I really expected this meeting to be about what students thought could be done to better the program, not to suck up to ACPE in order to come across as the "model pharmacy school".

At this point, the post Mike had about why US Pharmacists are so prone to abuse is running rampant through my head. Don't ever complain about the school. Complain about the students not being worthy of the program, complain about problems that are common among every school, but don't you dare bash the curriculum or faculty.
I think I understand y they suck up to ACPE. It's the organization responsible for the accreditation of the school!! It's good to complain about professors(to the dean ) but not to ACPE!!! If the school is not accredited, the students are the one suffereing(not able to take the naplex!!!)...So, I think your comment was not appropriate, I think...
 

IrishHammer

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I think I understand y they suck up to ACPE. It's the organization responsible for the accreditation of the school!! It's good to complain about professors(to the dean ) but not to ACPE!!! If the school is not accredited, the students are the one suffereing(not able to take the naplex!!!)...So, I think your comment was not appropriate, I think...
Just because they're the accreditation body doesn't mean they have to suck up to them. They're not going to deny Fisher full accreditation simply because one student had a few disparaging remarks about the quality of education from one teacher.

And, quite frankly, if I was the dean, I would have this woman fired. Imagine a Pharmacology professor who tells his/her students that Labetalol is a non-selective beta blocker, or that Salmeterol is an alpha-agonist. Now imagine that this professor constantly makes these kinda of mistakes. Should that person really have a job teaching? Why shouldn't be open to that kind of scrutiny just because she teaches a course like Health Care Delivery?
 

confettiflyer

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yeah i'm torn here...on the one hand, i understand your concern, on the other, it's kind of like biting the hand that feeds you (quite literally almost as they are responsible for your eventual licensure later on). it's funny your fellow students brought up dress code adherence....what a bunch of tools, but i'm sure they all knew it, and i'm sure the ACPE surveyors knew they were lying through their teeth. hahaha.

as an addendum.. EVERY school will have sh*tty professors, whether you're the newest school on the block or have been around for like 50+ years.
 

aboveliquidice

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Just because they're the accreditation body doesn't mean they have to suck up to them. They're not going to deny Fisher full accreditation simply because one student had a few disparaging remarks about the quality of education from one teacher.

And, quite frankly, if I was the dean, I would have this woman fired. Imagine a Pharmacology professor who tells his/her students that Labetalol is a non-selective beta blocker, or that Salmeterol is an alpha-agonist. Now imagine that this professor constantly makes these kinda of mistakes. Should that person really have a job teaching? Why shouldn't be open to that kind of scrutiny just because she teaches a course like Health Care Delivery?
How old are you? There are forums for discussing this issue - A meeting with ACPE is not one of them.

It's clear from your response that you understand both the gravity of ACPE's power and your desire to have a poor professor removed. You would think you would understand a bit more about the process of improving / removing faculty.

Reevaluate your position/role - adjust attitude accordingly.
 

IrishHammer

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yeah i'm torn here...on the one hand, i understand your concern, on the other, it's kind of like biting the hand that feeds you (quite literally almost as they are responsible for your eventual licensure later on).
I did like the fact that when I asked about all the new schools opening, one of the board members said flat out "A school will fail in the next 5-10 years." Obviously, they weren't there to play "Barbie's Dream Pharmacy School".
 

confettiflyer

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oh and the correct bullsh*t answer is:

"if i were dean, i would raise admissions standards while making myself LESS accessible to students. as it is right now, i feel like we're abusing access to the dean for trivial things best handled through other means. it's great having a close relationship with faculty, but the dean should focus on making our school A-OK super number one!"

see what i did there...i insulted your fellow students in the first line while insulting them again in the 2nd line while making the school look great at the same time for having an existing open door policy (that's prone to abuse). yeah?
 

confettiflyer

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I did like the fact that when I asked about all the new schools opening, one of the board members said flat out "A school will fail in the next 5-10 years." Obviously, they weren't there to play "Barbie's Dream Pharmacy School".
hahahah that's great, i had my money on CNCP with their delayed pre-candidate accreditation and 90+ student enrollment (over the cap), but it appears some voodoo happened. ah well, next time.
 

IrishHammer

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oh and the correct bullsh*t answer is:

"if i were dean, i would raise admissions standards while making myself LESS accessible to students. as it is right now, i feel like we're abusing access to the dean for trivial things best handled through other means. it's great having a close relationship with faculty, but the dean should focus on making our school A-OK super number one!"

see what i did there...i insulted your fellow students in the first line while insulting them again in the 2nd line while making the school look great at the same time for having an existing open door policy (that's prone to abuse). yeah?
:laugh: Okay, some people have pegged my question and "unfocused" and "unprofessional", but even I would consider that statement to be out of place.

Some of the other students did talk about how great the open door policy was, actually.
 

IrishHammer

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hahahah that's great, i had my money on CNCP with their delayed pre-candidate accreditation and 90+ student enrollment (over the cap), but it appears some voodoo happened. ah well, next time.
I have my money on a certain school as well, but didn't want to say anything since the Dean of said school was on yesterday's panel.
 

aboveliquidice

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oh and the correct bullsh*t answer is:

"if i were dean, i would raise admissions standards while making myself LESS accessible to students. as it is right now, i feel like we're abusing access to the dean for trivial things best handled through other means. it's great having a close relationship with faculty, but the dean should focus on making our school A-OK super number one!"

see what i did there...i insulted your fellow students in the first line while insulting them again in the 2nd line while making the school look great at the same time for having an existing open door policy (that's prone to abuse). yeah?
You Sir, have a future in politics
 

Sparda29

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Yeah, it sounds like the students who brought up dress code at your school are a bunch of tools. They tried enforcing a dress code here at Touro, we fought to get it relaxed to wear whatever you want as long as it isn't offensive.

2 weeks ago, we were having recurring problems with the heat getting close to 100 degrees in the lecture hall, we combated that with declaring "Beach Day", and everyone wore short shorts and tank tops and such to class.
 

confettiflyer

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Some of the other students did talk about how great the open door policy was, actually.
yeah no it's being abused at my school...a LOT of business that should not be discussed with "upper management" is being discussed -- specifically, other students' medical conditions, facebook postings that people find offensive, and other stuff.

Granted, I don't blame the faculty for this...it's the spoiled students who think the school revolves around them and think they *should* come into the office for these kinds of things.

In your case, I would suggest just crunching through the next few years, get what you need to get, and get out. know that any changes you suggest now won't affect you one bit. so lay low and play the game, that's what my pharmacists at work have advised me to do.
 

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I don't think you should have stated what you did to the ACPE. The deciding factor for me, on this issue, is that the ACPE didn't explicitly ask you about teacher performance.

For example, if someone were to ask me if there are bad teachers at my school, I would certainly reply affirmatively.

If someone asked me how I felt about my professors, I would say that there are some that I like more than others, and some that I do not like so much, but on the whole I feel comfortable with my professors.

And, if someone asked me a non-directed open question about areas of improvement, I would probably bring up an an altogether different issue. Or, if I had to comment on teacher improvement, I would do so without mentioning a specific professor.

Personally, I feel that the last ACPE visit before accreditation is a bit of a formality, and so I feel that it is unlikely to torpedo the accreditation process through just one negative comment, especially if everything else has been positive thus far. However, I do not agree with what you did simply because I don't see what you had to gain from the situation. The ACPE is not going to manually remove a particular professor since they do not have that power. Additionally, the school administrators won't feel any more pressured to remove that professor now than they did beforehand. It would have been more effective to talk to the school administrators, and the dean, firsthand.

In short, I wouldn't have done what you did because there wasn't anything to gain.

--Garfield3d
 

confettiflyer

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You Sir, have a future in politics
future? i had a past in politics, haha.

two bits of advice wholly unrelated to this discussion:

whenever you send out an email/memo, make sure it can stand on its own (especially if it's a reply).

second, never actually answer a question directly, go around in circles and control the conversation. you never know what they're gonna do in editing. i went to a workshop on answering questions and the person getting grilled got cut off abruptly and gave everyone the impression that she wanted to kill puppies.

not like i follow my own advice half the time anyway, but there you go.
 

WVUPharm2007

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The ACPE never locked me in a room and asked me about my school.

Well...maybe they did do that and the school didn't tell me about it because they knew I'd stand up and talk for 5 hours about how the entire US education system is a sham...and how 1/2 of my professors "teach" by simply reading powerpoint slides out loud...

Of course, I went to an old, established, and respected school. I suppose the ACPE just assumes all is well and doesn't interrogate us Gulag-style in a dark, dank, smoke filled room...
 
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MountainPharmD

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Good for you for having some balls.

However things are probably not well if you go to a school of pharmacy named after a retail pharmacy. Wegmans is cool and all and made I think number three on Forbes list of most admired companies to work for. Still I would not feel real good about my education going to the CVS or Walgreens school of pharmacy at your local diploma mill campus.
 

IrishHammer

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Good for you for having some balls.

However things are probably not well if you go to a school of pharmacy named after a retail pharmacy. Wegmans is cool and all and made I think number three on Forbes list of most admired companies to work for. Still I would not feel real good about my education going to the CVS or Walgreens school of pharmacy at your local diploma mill campus.
It was named after Bob Wegman, not the actual franchise. I get what you're saying though. St. John Fisher received a lot of grants and donations from Bob Wegman during his life. He seemed to really like Fisher.
 

eightball

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I cant get my head around schools requiring dress codes...what is this? high school? I went to a private catholic high school where dress code was a life line, but in a professional school?? I would shoot myself.

So what are the most common dress codes? Shirt and tie mon thru friday. damn.

Dress codes are lame. Period.
 

Old Timer

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The issue here is truth verses appropriateness. You may correct and your assesment of the professor may have been spot on, but that was not the forum to express it.

If it's true that professor is the major downfall of the school, you could have answered the question in a number of ways that focus on teacher accountability and include student evaluation of professors in your answer that would have made your point generally without embarrassing the professor personally.


Now can your reformulate your answer?
 

MountainPharmD

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It was named after Bob Wegman, not the actual franchise. I get what you're saying though. St. John Fisher received a lot of grants and donations from Bob Wegman during his life. He seemed to really like Fisher.
No wonder Wegman's is a good place to work. The guy the company is named after is still running it. Thats cool the CEO of the company donated the money for the school. He is a business man and a grocery man not a pharmacist. How refreshing to have someone that high up in a company commited to pharmacy. I bet its pretty good working as a pharmacist for Wegmans. On second thought I would feel good about going to the Wegman's school of pharmacy.

If I went to the Walgreens, CVS or Wal-Mart school of Pharmacy I would not feel so good.
 

confettiflyer

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So after a day of giving it some thought, I'm gonna have to side against you on this one IrishHammer...I think it was a mildly inappropriate venue to give that response; however, I don't think it was that big of a deal, your classmates are still a bunch of tools for their responses & for reacting toward you that way, and the ACPE surveyors probably didn't care.

Complaints about the quality of a professor is probably best left to an inevitable end-of-semester evaluation. Even then, some people are just bad teachers...it's like telling someone they're ugly won't change the fact that they're ugly.
 

IrishHammer

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No wonder Wegman's is a good place to work. The guy the company is named after is still running it. Thats cool the CEO of the company donated the money for the school. He is a business man and a grocery man not a pharmacist. How refreshing to have someone that high up in a company commited to pharmacy. I bet its pretty good working as a pharmacist for Wegmans. On second thought I would feel good about going to the Wegman's school of pharmacy.

If I went to the Walgreens, CVS or Wal-Mart school of Pharmacy I would not feel so good.
Wegman's is a pretty sweet place to work as a pharmacist. The Wegman's around the corner from my house has 6 hired pharmacists. Everytime I'm in there shopping, I see several pharmacists actually counseling patients (with patients waiting in line for the consultation areas). In essence, all the common problems that happen at other chains (understaffing, long hours, doing all filling and no counseling) don't exist with Wegman's. They seem to believe that good customer service and a positive environment is conducive to success, rather than just trying to push product out through brute force.

Problem is, it's difficult to get a job with Wegman's. They only open one or two new stores per year, so not many new jobs are created, and because it's such a good place to work, nobody ever leaves. They only hired 5 new pharmacists last year.
 
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IrishHammer

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So after a day of giving it some thought, I'm gonna have to side against you on this one IrishHammer...I think it was a mildly inappropriate venue to give that response; however, I don't think it was that big of a deal, your classmates are still a bunch of tools for their responses & for reacting toward you that way, and the ACPE surveyors probably didn't care.

Complaints about the quality of a professor is probably best left to an inevitable end-of-semester evaluation. Even then, some people are just bad teachers...it's like telling someone they're ugly won't change the fact that they're ugly.
I'm pretty sure the students who are so badly offended by this are making a bigger deal out of it than necessary. If they're so concerned about the ramifications of my comment, why are they propagating it?

However, I've had a brainstorm on how to turn this thing in my and the school's collective favor. Since the vast majority of students who have had her for a class have all told me the same thing ("That's the wrong forum to say that, but...I agree with what you said"), I'm thinking that now that it's out there that students are unhappy, things can be set in motion. Nobody likes her, but nobody wanted to be the first to say anything. So, if by some chance, the administration hears a collective outcry from the students, reviews the professor, and relieves her of her duties as a professor, not only is one very large detriment to my education gone, but then next year, when ACPE visits, the school can proudly boast that they are "attentive to student's educational needs and will take any necessary steps to alleviate any issues that are detrimental to the quality of the program."
 

medicalCPA

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I have my money on a certain school as well, but didn't want to say anything since the Dean of said school was on yesterday's panel.
I think I can guess which school this is...But like you, I'll keep my opinions to myself.
 

Jetninjin

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Wegman's is a pretty sweet place to work as a pharmacist. The Wegman's around the corner from my house has 6 hired pharmacists. Everytime I'm in there shopping, I see several pharmacists actually counseling patients (with patients waiting in line for the consultation areas). In essence, all the common problems that happen at other chains (understaffing, long hours, doing all filling and no counseling) don't exist with Wegman's. They seem to believe that good customer service and a positive environment is conducive to success, rather than just trying to push product out through brute force.
That makes sense, actually. Look at their clientele: generally upscale folks who put a premium on specialty items (and, let's face it, a little bit of "status"). Good service goes towards those who will demand it -- and the Wegmans clientele fits that perfectly.

As far as grocery items go, Wegmans isn't really competing with the big chain grocery store down the street - they are competing with Whole Foods, Trader Joes, and a whole bunch of specialty stores. So by association, their pharmacy isn't going to be treating their customers like they just walked out of peopleofwalmart.com either lol.
 

aboveliquidice

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I'm pretty sure the students who are so badly offended by this are making a bigger deal out of it than necessary. If they're so concerned about the ramifications of my comment, why are they propagating it?

However, I've had a brainstorm on how to turn this thing in my and the school's collective favor. Since the vast majority of students who have had her for a class have all told me the same thing ("That's the wrong forum to say that, but...I agree with what you said"), I'm thinking that now that it's out there that students are unhappy, things can be set in motion. Nobody likes her, but nobody wanted to be the first to say anything. So, if by some chance, the administration hears a collective outcry from the students, reviews the professor, and relieves her of her duties as a professor, not only is one very large detriment to my education gone, but then next year, when ACPE visits, the school can proudly boast that they are "attentive to student's educational needs and will take any necessary steps to alleviate any issues that are detrimental to the quality of the program."
That's a good spin... Get 'er done! Your classmates are acting like d-bags, esp if they harbour the same feelings - looks like you've got the right idea about the situation. It's already out in the open now ( and it's not anonymous), that is usually the difficult part.