Unbelievably Depressed

[jpj52byu]

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It's crazy how contrasting the depression I now feel is from not being accepted to dental school is to the thrill I felt back in May when I scored in the 99.5 percentile on the Dat and thought my dental future was secured. I only got interviews at 2 school and still have heard nothing. What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days. 24 on dat. 3.4 gpa. over 1000 hours of community service. Applying sucks hard.

 

[bluejellybelly]

It's crazy how contrasting the depression I now feel is from not being accepted to dental school is to the thrill I felt back in May when I scored in the 99.5 percentile on the Dat and thought my dental future was secured. I only got interviews at 2 school and still have heard nothing. What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days. 24 on dat. 3.4 gpa. over 1000 hours of community service. Applying sucks hard.

well how early did you apply?

 

[OwnageMobile]

Chalk it up to bad luck-

If you know you are a good applicant, don't let it get you down. Think of it as an opportunity.

 

[dentwannabe]

It's crazy how contrasting the depression I now feel is from not being accepted to dental school is to the thrill I felt back in May when I scored in the 99.5 percentile on the Dat and thought my dental future was secured. I only got interviews at 2 school and still have heard nothing. What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days. 24 on dat. 3.4 gpa. over 1000 hours of community service. Applying sucks hard.

what schools did you apply to?

Its not bad luck. Somethings missing in you app. Did you call schools and make sure they have EVERYTHING?

 

[SuperTrooper]

It's crazy how contrasting the depression I now feel is from not being accepted to dental school is to the thrill I felt back in May when I scored in the 99.5 percentile on the Dat and thought my dental future was secured. I only got interviews at 2 school and still have heard nothing. What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days. 24 on dat. 3.4 gpa. over 1000 hours of community service. Applying sucks hard.

hmm... yeah there's certainly more to this story. 3.4gpa and 24 dat should get in somewhere.

As for the 1000hours+ of community service... I noticed the BYU in your name. If I were an adcom I would NOT consider missionary work community service. Missionary work (ala LDS) is almost completely self-serving in my opinion.

 

[Gargamel]

I’m going to take a crack at this one and say this applicant will not have an undergraduate degree this year.

 

[Dynomite]

How many times did you take the DAT? If you scored in the 99.5 percentile on your first attempt, kudos. If it was your third, meh.

Also, while there is some randomness inherent in the admissions process, it's not completely random. There is something severely lacking in your application, and you most likely already know what it is.

 

[Dynomite]

I’m going to take a crack at this one and say this applicant will not have an undergraduate degree this year.

Sounds like a direct hit, you may have just sunk his battleship.

 

[Ruprick]

hmm... yeah there's certainly more to this story. 3.4gpa and 24 dat should get in somewhere.

As for the 1000hours+ of community service... I noticed the BYU in your name. If I were an adcom I would NOT consider missionary work community service. Missionary work (ala LDS) is almost completely self-serving in my opinion.

LDS mission self-serving? Please elaborate.

 

[fleur delacour]

It's crazy how contrasting the depression I now feel is from not being accepted to dental school is to the thrill I felt back in May when I scored in the 99.5 percentile on the Dat and thought my dental future was secured. I only got interviews at 2 school and still have heard nothing. What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days. 24 on dat. 3.4 gpa. over 1000 hours of community service. Applying sucks hard.

I totally agree with you. I was in the same situation as you are. I have DAT scores in the 95th percentile, and a GPA of 3.5. I was involved in a lot of extracurricular activities. I was so sure I was gonna get in. I got 2 interviews and was accepted at only one school which was originally my last choice, and am in the waiting list for the other. Very annoying because I have no idea what other stuff they were looking at. The problem is that they also refuse to tell what is wrong with the application. I call them up practically everyday asking them what is wrong with my app. but they refuse to tell.

 

[Dynomite]

I call them up practically everyday

This is probably your achilles heel.

 

[Mrxle3]

There has got to be more to this story. I find it hard to believe that with the statistics presented that something like this could occur. Maybe something went horribly wrong in the interview, or one of your letters of rec brought you down, etc. Look beyond just the numbers and ask yourself what it is your application is missing or where you went wrong in the whole process, and hopefully things will become better for the next cycle.

 

[howui3]

There has got to be more to this story. I find it hard to believe that with the statistics presented that something like this could occur. Maybe something went horribly wrong in the interview, or one of your letters of rec brought you down, etc. Look beyond just the numbers and ask yourself what it is your application is missing or where you went wrong in the whole process, and hopefully things will become better for the next cycle.

or maybe the OP applied to very competitive schools where his scores were just average.


OP: don't give up. i would write a letter to the schools at which you had interviews and exlpain why you want to go there (be specific) and tell then what you have been doing (if you took another class, shadowed, done more research). Write about anything that will make you stand out and show your dedication, and why you want to go to their school.

Good luck.

 

[Mrxle3]

or maybe the OP applied to very competitive schools where his scores were just average.


OP: don't give up. i would write a letter to the schools at which you had interviews and exlpain why you want to go there (be specific) and tell then what you have been doing (if you took another class, shadowed, done more research). Write about anything that will make you stand out and show your dedication, and why you want to go to their school.

Good luck.

I agree that the schools he applied to must be extremely competitive, yet it seemed to me like he was a very competitive applicant in terms of his numbers. Regardless, good luck to the OP!

 

[Biogirl361]

since everyone else is guessing i'll guess too, why not, its more fun than studying for IMS -
1. he applied late and to somewhat competitive schools
2. his interviewers didn't like him - perhaps his confidence that he would get in translated as arrogance?

 

[L8DYV]

How many schools did you apply to?? You may need to apply to more schools. You really need to apply to a lot nowadays it seems to have better chances. Good luck and don't give up!

 

[Lostinbul]

since everyone else is guessing i'll guess too, why not, its more fun than studying for IMS -
1. he applied late and to somewhat competitive schools
2. his interviewers didn't like him - perhaps his confidence that he would get in translated as arrogance?

Hey this is fun.............Let's just guess until the OP decides to tell us why he didn't get in!

Here's my guess:
#1 He disclosed his criminal record on his application. Why accept a student who wouldn't even qualify for a licence to practice due to his personal history?

 

[Gl4di4tor]

Hey this is fun.............Let's just guess until the OP decides to tell us why he didn't get in!

Here's my guess:
#1 He disclosed his criminal record on his application. Why accept a student who wouldn't even qualify for a licence to practice due to his personal history?

Indeed this is fun. I'm guessing he fired up a joint infront of his interviewer and refused to share. I know that would be enough for me to disapprove of his application.

 

[beastly115]

I'll bite. He told his interviewer that he applied to medical, vet, pharm, and optometry schools as back up.

 

[Dynomite]

Maybe he told his interviewers how lovely all eight of his wives are.

 

[Rezdawg]

Maybe it was really a 21 DAT and 3.1 gpa.

 

[fightingspirit]

It's crazy how contrasting the depression I now feel is from not being accepted to dental school is to the thrill I felt back in May when I scored in the 99.5 percentile on the Dat and thought my dental future was secured. I only got interviews at 2 school and still have heard nothing. What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days. 24 on dat. 3.4 gpa. over 1000 hours of community service. Applying sucks hard.

OP: I am sorry that you have not been accepted yet. Your stats are clear indications that you are academically more qualified than many accepted applicants. I salute you for the 24 DAT and the community service. You have not included more info in your post so it is difficult to analyze the outcome of your application so far. I, and a few other applicants, applied very late (end of November with DAT submitted late December); I was lucky enough to get accepted and yet my DAT and community service have a modest value when compared to yours. It seems that even if one applies late, one gets a good shot if the stats are good. In your case, the stats are awesome; therefore, a late application might not be the reason behind the unpleasant outcome you’re experiencing. Some have suggested the choice of schools as a possible reason behind this. Well, I cannot think of a school in which your DAT is not above average or in which your DAT does not compensate for a less than 3.8 GPA, therefore, most likely, it’s not a school choice problem. Some are suggesting inTview-gone-bad issues. I highly doubt that either, because at the adcom table, it seems that stats take precedence in most schools, unless something went seriously wrong during the inTview.

Someone of your stats would be expected to land at least 5 inTviews and yet you mentioned 2. d-schools most likely have a serious reason behind rejecting someone with your excellent stats, a reason beyond late application or a minor awkward moment during an inTview. Perhaps your PS or your RECs have a serious comment against you.

Don’t give up yet but if you don’t get in, you must find out what happened. Call the schools and ask to speak to the assistant dean for admissions. Ask him/her about the reason behind the rejection. Usually, they don’t tell you but if you push it politely and diplomatically, you will get an indirect subtle explanation of why they rejected you.

Just try to suck it up. I know it is easier said than done. The most important thing is to MAKE SURE that you don’t take this personal. Remember that some of us are good at conveying a positive acceptable image of ourselves on paper. Some are masters at conveying an image that is even better than the reality. But some are not good at it in writing period—yours truly is one of them. Whatever they may have against you might be simply due to their misunderstanding of who you are or your unfair representation of your own self.

The good news is that your weakness, whatever it is, seems to be easy to deal with. A low DAT, coupled with an inability to score higher is probably much worse.

Good luck and believe in yourself

 

[Utes]

SuperTrooper, If you think an LDS-mission is totally self-serving, you are misinformed. Because he said 1000 hours, he wasn't including the proselyting, otherwise it would be closer to 10,950 (waking, proselyting) hours. There is time set aside each week on the mission for actual community service. I worked at soup kitchens, hospitals, doing manual labor rebuilding homes, etc. During that time no actual proselyting was done. A major tenet of the LDS faith is service, I would not be surprised if 1000 hours was done completely outside of his/her mission.

Besides, with the number of kids getting into dental school each year from BYU, I think adcoms are impressed by this service.

 

[Tche]

What schools did you apply to and interview at? Depending on the school you may still have a shot for this year. I know a few people that didn't get in until July and August last year. If you don't end up getting in this year, you'll have learned how to make yourself a better applicant next year. Good news is that you don't need to take the DAT again. Good luck!

 

[polarnut]

you always have next year. keep your chin up! not everyone gets in on their first try.

 

[jpj52byu]

its been real fun to read all your guesses as to what the problem is, but I guess its time to elaborate. First of all, I definitely didn't apply late. I applied on June 2 and called all the schools to verify that everything arrived ok. I applied to 13 schools, however some of them were very difficult to get into based on my residency. I did apply to some "easy" schools like Louisville, Maryland, Virginia, Temple and Uconn where my dat and gpa are more than competitive. I can't figure out how anyone that is educated can think an LDS mission is self serving in anyway. I can't think of anything I could possibly do that is less self serving than an LDS mission. I'd like to see that guy leave his family, friends, and lifestyle for two years to live in a 3rd world country and help people overcome problems with drugs alcohol and prostition. Yeah, i stood a whole lot to gain from that. Anyway, 3 of my 4 lor's where from people who knew me real well and said they would write good ones. the other was probably mediocre at best. My interview at louisville was wasn't my best, but it wasn't bad either. My interview at Temple went amazingly well. I guess i'll just keep on waiting. the cylce isn't over yet.

 

[L8DYV]

i suppose sometimes despite our stats and application information, the whole application process has a "chance" factor that plays into the equations. sorta like hitting the jackpot...i guess the only comfort i can give is--maybe for you it was just bad luck?

don't give up the ship!

 

[DATRAT]

hmmm... LDS, 24 DAT, cool kid, have you ever thought that maybe dentistry isn't meant to be??? Keep praying, maybe you are supposed to do something else! You should have had absolutely no problem getting into any of the schools. P.S., if you are single make sure to hit up the "Rock the Block" party at condo row tonight, it will be a good time to relieve some stress and meet some hotties!!!

 

[coolraz]

First of all Maryland, VCU and Uconn are not "easy" schools (your DAT may be higher than the average, but your out of state for the first two and your GPA is way low for the third). Second, LDS missions are good, but there IS a lot of the preaching thing which honestly does NOT count as community service (of course the actual helping people DOES count) and adcoms do take that into account. Third, a lot of LDS students do not get into schools (easy or othwise) because LDS give back to the church and not to the school and schools want alumni who give back!

I honestly feel that your attitude ("I'm applying to easy schools", "I have great DAT (you do! but you should be humble about it) may have adversely affected your chances. I was in state for VCU and my stats were out of this world compared to their average but I was the most humble mofo at the interview cus I know dentists dont like arrogant aholes (that's what medicine is for! : )

Anyway, if dentistry is really what you want, find out what was wrong, fix it and reapply. Best of luck!

 

[Tche]

Quote:

Third, a lot of LDS students do not get into schools (easy or othwise) because LDS give back to the church and not to the school and schools want alumni who give back!

Not really logical considering the high % of LDS students at dental schools. By your logic the opposite would seem to make more sense.

 

[juggamynugga]

I think that being from BYU probably didn't help you though, you guys are smart! and so many do so well on the DAT from there. I think it kinda puts you at a disadvantage, I mean many of the mormons here got 99.9% We have about 30 LDS in our class it sucks for you but I think schools put a limit on how many students they want from a single school.

 

[U2Me2]

I know many Mormons, and I thought doing a mission was "expected" of young males? I've no doubt this is viewed as "service" among your fellow church members. But fundamentally, missonaries function to increase church membership, it's self-serving. I'm sure some good is done in community work to improve the reputation of the church and the local mission, but I think you should understand that many people outside your church (including educated ones) would not view a mission as community service. It's your personal choice as a participant in a religious organization.

I agree with other comments, there's something more to know that you should try to find out with some polite phone calls. I understand your frustration and wish you well.

 

[food4thots]

i know how you feel.. i was once there last year...but i wasn't as competitive.. i applied again this year, and made it. i'm sure you will be able to also.

 

[philicity]

its been real fun to read all your guesses as to what the problem is, but I guess its time to elaborate. First of all, I definitely didn't apply late. I applied on June 2 and called all the schools to verify that everything arrived ok. I applied to 13 schools, however some of them were very difficult to get into based on my residency. I did apply to some "easy" schools like Louisville, Maryland, Virginia, Temple and Uconn where my dat and gpa are more than competitive. I can't figure out how anyone that is educated can think an LDS mission is self serving in anyway. I can't think of anything I could possibly do that is less self serving than an LDS mission. I'd like to see that guy leave his family, friends, and lifestyle for two years to live in a 3rd world country and help people overcome problems with drugs alcohol and prostition. Yeah, i stood a whole lot to gain from that. Anyway, 3 of my 4 lor's where from people who knew me real well and said they would write good ones. the other was probably mediocre at best. My interview at louisville was wasn't my best, but it wasn't bad either. My interview at Temple went amazingly well. I guess i'll just keep on waiting. the cylce isn't over yet.

I know this is a stupid question, but when you say that your recommendation letters were from "people" who knew you well, those "people" were science professors, correct? I just can't understand what could have happened to your application with stats like that.

And to all those who are criticizing his "arrogant" attitude, you guys should back off. This is a forum where everyone should be able to talk honestly and frankly. And with scores like that, I think he has every right to think that he's a very competitive applicant. More importantly, we don't even know how he acted during his interview. Just because he has high scores and is willing to state them doesn't mean he's a cocky, arrogant guy. And if he was, it doesn't mean he was stupid enough to show that to the interviewer. Just my two cents!

 

[Dutchboy]

I think that being from BYU probably didn't help you though, you guys are smart! and so many do so well on the DAT from there. I think it kinda puts you at a disadvantage, I mean many of the mormons here got 99.9% We have about 30 LDS in our class it sucks for you but I think schools put a limit on how many students they want from a single school.

I'm going to second this opinion. Schools like to diversify thier classes. From what I have heard BYU has around 300 kids apply to dental school each year, which is by far the most of any school in the nation. A class full of BYU dorks is not a diverse class.

 

[colt]

A class full of BYU dorks is not a diverse class.

 

[jpj52byu]

I know many Mormons, and I thought doing a mission was "expected" of young males? I've no doubt this is viewed as "service" among your fellow church members. But fundamentally, missonaries function to increase church membership, it's self-serving. I'm sure some good is done in community work to improve the reputation of the church and the local mission, but I think you should understand that many people outside your church (including educated ones) would not view a mission as community service. It's your personal choice as a participant in a religious organization.

I agree with other comments, there's something more to know that you should try to find out with some polite phone calls. I understand your frustration and wish you well.

Just because LDS guys are expected to go on missions doesn't mean that the service should coun any less. I mean everyone applying to dental school is expected to shadow a dentist. so does that mean none of it should count. Everyone is expected to do volunteer work, so it must me self serving and shouldn't count. Everyone is expected to take the dat and score high, so those who do are just self serving and it shouldn't count either.

 

[Dynomite]

i suppose sometimes despite our stats and application information, the whole application process has a "chance" factor that plays into the equations. sorta like hitting the jackpot...i guess the only comfort i can give is--maybe for you it was just bad luck?

don't give up the ship!

I applied to three schools, and got into all three. I'd like to think that wasn't mere chance.

Going to BYU, doing a LDS mission, and wanting to be a dentist isn't your meal ticket into dental school. I still think there is more to the story than what has been exposed. The OP applied to 13 schools after scoring in the 99.5 percentile on the DAT (so he says). Me thinks he is lying about his stats, he has no personality, or that he is the most pompous, holier-than-thou jerk in person. He should have gotten in somewhere.

 

[DentistDevilDog]

I know many Mormons, and I thought doing a mission was "expected" of young males? I've no doubt this is viewed as "service" among your fellow church members. But fundamentally, missonaries function to increase church membership, it's self-serving. I'm sure some good is done in community work to improve the reputation of the church and the local mission, but I think you should understand that many people outside your church (including educated ones) would not view a mission as community service. It's your personal choice as a participant in a religious organization.

I agree with other comments, there's something more to know that you should try to find out with some polite phone calls. I understand your frustration and wish you well.

I think was a very insightful and educated take on the mormon mission. I appreciate it when people don't tear other people apart just because they have different viewpoints. This is a perfect example of stating your opinion without being rude or impolite. Good job.

 

[geckel]

jpj52byu, you need to talk to a dean and if they are to busy then you need to leave a message for them to call you back (not call everyday). There is absolutely no excuse for not knowing why you are not in yet. If you call and leave a message requesting to review your application, like a mature proffessional, then they will call you back and let you know. If you wait to long to find out exactly what the hold up is then you run the risk of not correcting the problem in time for the 07' cycle.

This should be done for every school that you applied at. good luck

 

[Utes]

Why have so many of you questioned the altruistic nature of the OP's service? Is it because you are offended that someone would perform service in any manner that does not conform to complete altruism? Why not question the others that did service just because it helped them get into dental school?

If you are concerned about how someone else's community service record looks compared to yours, perhaps you should question your own motives.

 

[geckel]

Why have so many of you questioned the altruistic nature of the OP's service? Is it because you are offended that someone would perform service in any manner that does not conform to complete altruism? Why not question the others that did service just because it helped them get into dental school?

If you are concerned about how someone else's community service record looks compared to yours, perhaps you should question your own motives.

I don't think that most schools really care that much about volunteer work to begin with. In the OP's case they might even prefer his EC's b/c he is motivated to volunteer for reasons other then completing his application.

 

[wtrskibum]

What the hell does a guy have to do to get in now a days.

I thought Mormons weren't supposed curse. That's what all the Mormon people I know have told me. Why would a dental school accept you and think you could properly represent their school if you can't even properly represent your own religion? I'm not saying that's why you didn't get accepted but it makes me wonder about your personality.

 

[deejay]

I thought Mormons weren't supposed curse. That's what all the Mormon people I know have told me. Why would a dental school accept you and think you could properly represent their school if you can't even properly represent your own religion? I'm not saying that's why you didn't get accepted but it makes me wonder about your personality.

😕 wtf

 

[Dr. Dai Phan]

its been real fun to read all your guesses as to what the problem is, but I guess its time to elaborate. First of all, I definitely didn't apply late. I applied on June 2 and called all the schools to verify that everything arrived ok. I applied to 13 schools, however some of them were very difficult to get into based on my residency. I did apply to some "easy" schools like Louisville, Maryland, Virginia, Temple and Uconn where my dat and gpa are more than competitive. I can't figure out how anyone that is educated can think an LDS mission is self serving in anyway. I can't think of anything I could possibly do that is less self serving than an LDS mission. I'd like to see that guy leave his family, friends, and lifestyle for two years to live in a 3rd world country and help people overcome problems with drugs alcohol and prostition. Yeah, i stood a whole lot to gain from that. Anyway, 3 of my 4 lor's where from people who knew me real well and said they would write good ones. the other was probably mediocre at best. My interview at louisville was wasn't my best, but it wasn't bad either. My interview at Temple went amazingly well. I guess i'll just keep on waiting. the cylce isn't over yet.

Hello there,

You need to contact the schools and inquire on why you are rejected as there must be a good reason(s). Correct those areas and I am sure you will get in. DP

 

[Ruprick]

I thought Mormons weren't supposed curse. That's what all the Mormon people I know have told me. Why would a dental school accept you and think you could properly represent their school if you can't even properly represent your own religion? I'm not saying that's why you didn't get accepted but it makes me wonder about your personality.

Pretty presumptuous of you to infer that the OP didn't get into dental school because he said "hell", don't you think?

Do you live by your standards 100% of the time? You never make mistakes?

This thread is going nowhere fast.

 

[sm1nty]

Yes, my 2 cents worth: Do contact those schools to find out how you can improve your application. Perhaps now would be a better time, since classes are more or less filled. I'm sure they will take the time to talk to you.

 

[SusyGrnbrg]

Just because LDS guys are expected to go on missions doesn't mean that the service should coun any less. I mean everyone applying to dental school is expected to shadow a dentist. so does that mean none of it should count. Everyone is expected to do volunteer work, so it must me self serving and shouldn't count. Everyone is expected to take the dat and score high, so those who do are just self serving and it shouldn't count either.

ok BYU- I want to compare myself to you... because I got 6 interviews- and every single one centered around my volunteer/internship background.

I raised thousands of dollars for non profit organizations (like the ALS Association, the American Cancer Association, etc.) through events where I stepped up as a leader and led teams that ranged from 5 people to 40 people.

I authored grant proposals that allowed events and presentations to take place on my campus that affected thousands of students, and allowed me to work with community and University leaders.

I assisted a dentist at one office while working at another's filing insurance claims and keeping track of electronic billing.

I can honestly say that when I graduate this spring I am leaving my university a more culturally accepting and community driven environment.

My letters of recommendation came from the Director of Health Services, the Dean of Students, the Vice President of Student Affairs.

And I did all this for 5 years while taking a full classload (never even took a summer break) and maintained a 3.7 gpa.

that's why.

The people that get into dental programs are complete superstars- in a holistic way. It is not about the excellent numbers- it is about EVERYTHING.
And anyone on here who has received admission into a program that disagrees with me, is just being modest- because I promise there is something stellar about their app they are too humble to elaborate on.

 

[Ruprick]

ok BYU- I want to compare myself to you... because I got 6 interviews- and every single one centered around my volunteer/internship background.

I raised thousands of dollars for non profit organizations (like the ALS Association, the American Cancer Association, etc.) through events where I stepped up as a leader and led teams that ranged from 5 people to 40 people.

I authored grant proposals that allowed events and presentations to take place on my campus that affected thousands of students, and allowed me to work with community and University leaders.

I assisted a dentist at one office while working at another's filing insurance claims and keeping track of electronic billing.

I can honestly say that when I graduate this spring I am leaving my university a more culturally accepting and community driven environment.

My letters of recommendation came from the Director of Health Services, the Dean of Students, the Vice President of Student Affairs.

And I did all this for 5 years while taking a full classload (never even took a summer break) and maintained a 3.7 gpa.

that's why.

The people that get into dental programs are complete superstars- in a holistic way. It is not about the excellent numbers- it is about EVERYTHING.
And anyone on here who has received admission into a program that disagrees with me, is just being modest- because I promise there is something stellar about their app they are too humble to elaborate on.

You should be commended for your service. Your resume is impressive.

I'm curious though, are you suggesting that LDS missions don't entail worthwhile, community-driven service? I apologize if I inferred incorrectly, but that is what I got from your post.

Those of you that think LDS missions are entirely self-serving are way off base. A large portion of an LDS missionary's time is devoted to community service that is entirely void of proselyting, up to and including working in homeless shelters, natural disaster relief, volunteering in the community, etc etc. Former missionaries could compile a list chapters long but it is not necessary and misses the point. Most of them do it out of love for the people of the community they are in, not to pad their resume or their AADSAS application. Sounds corny and altruistic, but I speak from experience...it's the truth.

 

[Dutchboy]

Most of them do it out of love for the people of the community they are in, not to pad their resume or their AADSAS application. Sounds corny and altruistic, but I speak from experience...it's the truth.

Also to avoid be chastised and "looked down apon" by the other holier than thou members. I also speak from experience.