Unbiased. DS Rankings by Specializing %

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personalstatementsbyeric

personalstatementsbyeric

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Both my parents are Orthodontists and naturally I want to follow in their footsteps. What % of your school (or school you are interested in) go on to specialties (other than GPR and AEGD's). No opinions. No bias. No "it's a matter of preference." I just want objective numbers. Thank you 🙂 Rankings based on specialization percentages coming soon. Updates will be made as new statistics are brought forth!

...please give numbers straight from fact sheets/objective sources

1. Harvard 67%, 24/36 (2016)
2. UCLA 45%, 48/106 (2016)
3. Columbia 44%, 35/80 (2016)
4. UPENN 43% (43.4), 63/145 (2016)
5. UCONN 43% (42.8), 15/35 (2016)
6. UCSF 26%, 22/84 (2016)
7. University of Buffalo 14%, 15/110 (2016)
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But it is a matter of preference. Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc. all claim that (most) students get into their speciality of choice. % of students going into orthodontics won't help you pick a school.

For example, say school A sends 15% to ortho. And school B sends 20%. That doesn't mean you should go to School B; it just means more people in school B were interested. Maybe 50% of school A would rather do endo. You see what I mean? And it all depends on the year too. Harvard almost never had students go straight to private practice, but last year like 12/35 (don't quote me) went into private practice. They could have chosen any speciality but they wanted private practice. And many state schools have lower numbers, NOT because the students couldn't get into specialities, but because students who know they want GP tend to go to state schools over private.

Go to the cheapest school, work hard, and you'll become an orthodontist. Don't worry about the numbers, because the objective sources you're looking for don't exist.
 
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gfs6 said:
But it is a matter of preference. Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc. all claim that (most) students get into their speciality of choice. % of students going into orthodontics won't help you pick a school.

For example, say school A sends 15% to ortho. And school B sends 20%. That doesn't mean you should go to School B; it just means more people in school B were interested. Maybe 50% of school A would rather do endo. You see what I mean? And it all depends on the year too. Harvard almost never had students go straight to private practice, but last year like 6/35 (don't quote me) went into private practice. They could have chosen any speciality but they wanted private practice. And many state schools have lower numbers, NOT because the students couldn't get into specialities, but because students who know they want GP tend to go to state schools over private.

Go to the cheapest school, work hard, and you'll become an orthodontist. Don't worry about the numbers, because the objective sources you're looking for don't exist.
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Again, my aim is not ortho % or endo %. It's specialty total %'s. Your opinion is valued, but the aim of this thread is to throw opinions aside and provide quantitative data and have people decide and formulate their own opinions.
 
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Go back to my Harvard example. Harvard students can specialize in whatever they want. But last year the specialty% would have been much lower than 100% because many students who have the talent/grades to specialize still want to do general.

I'm not sure what you're looking to get from the numbers. Are you looking for the easiest school to specialize from? You can specialize from anywhere. And there's an argument that it's might be just as difficult to specialize from a heavy-hitter (Columbia, UCSF etc.) because everyone going there wants to specialize.
 
gfs6 said:
Go back to my Harvard example. Harvard students can specialize in whatever they want. But last year the specialty% would have been much lower than 100% because many students who have the talent/grades to specialize still want to do general.

I'm not sure what you're looking to get from the numbers. Are you looking for the easiest school to specialize from? You can specialize from anywhere. And there's an argument that it's might be just as difficult to specialize from a heavy-hitter (Columbia, UCSF etc.) because everyone going there wants to specialize.
Click to expand...

Your argument is valid, but not what I'm after. I want numbers. What I am to do with them is a personal decision and choice. I ask that you keep this thread strictly quantitative. I do not want this a debate forum or one that brings forth opinions. There are plenty of those.
 
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MWU-AZ class of 2014:

109 students - 100% graduation rate
  • 4 going into Pediatric Dentistry graduate program
  • 2 going into Orthodontics graduate program
  • 3 going into Oral Surgery graduate program
  • 1 going into Prosthodontics graduate program
  • 1 going into Radiology graduate program
  • 9 going into General Practice Residency or Advanced Education in General Dentistry program
  • 11 entered military service (6 Army, 3 Air Force, 2 Navy)
  • 79 entering private practice, either on their own, as an associate, or as a partner
so 28% entered something other than private practice
 
fogorvostan said:
109 students - 100% graduation rate
  • 4 going into Pediatric Dentistry graduate program
  • 2 going into Orthodontics graduate program
  • 3 going into Oral Surgery graduate program
  • 1 going into Prosthodontics graduate program
  • 1 going into Radiology graduate program
  • 9 going into General Practice Residency or Advanced Education in General Dentistry program
  • 11 entered military service (6 Army, 3 Air Force, 2 Navy)
  • 79 entering private practice, either on their own, as an associate, or as a partner
so 28% entered something other than private practice
Click to expand...

You say 109 students, but the numbers add up to 110...illuminati.
 
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Columbia class of 2016 (~80 graduates):
  • 26 GPR
  • 9 AEGD
  • 9 OMFS (15 previous year)
  • 8 Peds
  • 4 Perio
  • 3 Endo
  • 1 Pros
  • 9 Ortho
  • 5 Military
  • 6 Private Practice
 
Where is everyone getting the numbers from? I can't find anything for Nova or UF.
 
why does that UCSF number sound way too low? everyone always hypes it up as a school for specializing...is it usually higher or is that data just wrong?
 
You know what surprises me so far? How similar the specialization rates are at Columbia and Penn - two Ivy Leagues- compared to those at UConn, a state school.
 
gfs6 said:
But it is a matter of preference. Harvard, Penn, Columbia, etc. all claim that (most) students get into their speciality of choice. % of students going into orthodontics won't help you pick a school.

For example, say school A sends 15% to ortho. And school B sends 20%. That doesn't mean you should go to School B; it just means more people in school B were interested. Maybe 50% of school A would rather do endo. You see what I mean? And it all depends on the year too. Harvard almost never had students go straight to private practice, but last year like 6/35 (don't quote me) went into private practice. They could have chosen any speciality but they wanted private practice. And many state schools have lower numbers, NOT because the students couldn't get into specialities, but because students who know they want GP tend to go to state schools over private.

Go to the cheapest school, work hard, and you'll become an orthodontist. Don't worry about the numbers, because the objective sources you're looking for don't exist.
Click to expand...
This should be framed.
 
gfs6 said:
Are you looking for the easiest school to specialize from? You can specialize from anywhere.
Click to expand...

Is this really true? Specialty schools compare/contrast D-school applicants in the same "competitive manner" that D-schools compare undergraduates... If two guys from Utah and Roseman apply for one available OMFS slot, who do you think is more competitive to fill that slot? The Utah guy who worked his butt off to earn a decent class rank, or the guy who went to a super easy, stress-free dental school like Roseman with no class ranking? Idk if I'm misunderstanding, but I think specialty schools need a way to compare their applicants and take the cream of the crop. Nothing wrong with collecting quantitative data, dab on brother.
 
It is the student, not the school. Work hard, do well and you will be able to specialize in whatever you want.


These numbers have too many confounding variables to be of much value.

EDIT: Rather than post again I will reply to the comment. The thing is, this compilation of data doesn't accurately reflect much. That's what is worrisome. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, really. This "data" will mislead people. Not here to argue, just don't want people to take these numbers at face value and make decisions without understanding there is significantly more to rates of specialization than what is displayed here. @personalstatementsbyeric
 
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I ask that people don't spam with their opinions. There are plenty of threads out there that showcase these varied opinions. This thread is solely for fact sheet numbers. If you cannot or do not want to contribute to that, it is your choice. But, please do not place personal thoughts/opinions into this thread as it detracts from the purpose of the thread: to collect data and compile it into one resource.
 
DMikes said:
It is the student, not the school. Work hard, do well and you will be able to specialize in whatever you want.


These numbers have too many confounding variables to be of much value.

EDIT: Rather than post again I will reply to the comment. The thing is, this compilation of data doesn't accurately reflect much. That's what is worrisome. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, really. This "data" will mislead people. @personalstatementsbyeric
Click to expand...
DMikes said:
It is the student, not the school. Work hard, do well and you will be able to specialize in whatever you want.


These numbers have too many confounding variables to be of much value.

EDIT: Rather than post again I will reply to the comment. The thing is, this compilation of data doesn't accurately reflect much. That's what is worrisome. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, really. This "data" will mislead people. @personalstatementsbyeric
Click to expand...
I beg to differ. If 67% of people at Harvard end up specializing then that is a fact. 67% of last years class ended up specializing. No wiggle room there.It is not a debatable figure. It is math.

There is room for doubt as to how many wanted to specialize, but that is not the concern of this thread. It is no different than a school that interviews 250 and matriculates 100. It doesn't have to show how many acceptances it sent out for those interviews. It's a concept that is similar in nature. I'm not stating which schools are more selective nor am I ranking dental schools on competitiveness. I am listing schools in a ranking order of which schools have the largest proportion of their class that go on to specialize. Make of these numbers what you will. But they are at the end of the day just that. Numbers. Without bias.
 
What I wonder is if someone went bat-sh** crazy, studied for hours and hours per day and into the wee nighttime hours, and did all extracurriculars they possibly could.. Is it pretty attainable under those circumstances to get into something like ortho or OMFS? Or are there people that still do that and don't get into those specialties?

I just have no idea how hard it would be to get into a specialty like that.

Edit- sorry OP, I know it's off topic. I just got curious all of the sudden.
 
DMikes said:
It is the student, not the school. Work hard, do well and you will be able to specialize in whatever you want.


These numbers have too many confounding variables to be of much value.

EDIT: Rather than post again I will reply to the comment. The thing is, this compilation of data doesn't accurately reflect much. That's what is worrisome. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, really. This "data" will mislead people. Not here to argue, just don't want people to take these numbers at face value and make decisions without understanding there is significantly more to rates of specialization than what is displayed here. @personalstatementsbyeric
Click to expand...
I agree. These numbers don't paint a clear picture and the interpretation is likely misleading.
 
Hi do you know what the specialization rate of Roseman is?

thegoatest said:
Is this really true? Specialty schools compare/contrast D-school applicants in the same "competitive manner" that D-schools compare undergraduates... If two guys from Utah and Roseman apply for one available OMFS slot, who do you think is more competitive to fill that slot? The Utah guy who worked his butt off to earn a decent class rank, or the guy who went to a super easy, stress-free dental school like Roseman with no class ranking? Idk if I'm misunderstanding, but I think specialty schools need a way to compare their applicants and take the cream of the crop. Nothing wrong with collecting quantitative data, dab on brother.
Click to expand...

Speaking of which, do you think a Roseman student would have a VERY difficult time getting accepted into a specialty program? I know there is no class rank and I know the curriculum is stress-free but I am looking to attend that school. Thing is, I have ambitions to specialize, perhaps in ortho. Will this harm my career?
 
jetbot33 said:
Hi do you know what the specialization rate of Roseman is?



Speaking of which, do you think a Roseman student would have a VERY difficult time getting accepted into a specialty program? I know there is no class rank and I know the curriculum is stress-free but I am looking to attend that school. Thing is, I have ambitions to specialize, perhaps in ortho. Will this harm my career?
Click to expand...
I've been wondering the same thing brother.
 
jetbot33 said:
Hi do you know what the specialization rate of Roseman is?



Speaking of which, do you think a Roseman student would have a VERY difficult time getting accepted into a specialty program? I know there is no class rank and I know the curriculum is stress-free but I am looking to attend that school. Thing is, I have ambitions to specialize, perhaps in ortho. Will this harm my career?
Click to expand...
I have no idea nor do I try to speculate. I just want to aggregate data. Roseman doesn't seem to publish theirs.
 
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I'm just going off of what other dental students have told me. From what I have heard from them, yes it would be very hard to specialize in ortho/omfs if you went to Roseman.
 
You can specialize from any school. You need a DMD/DDS for a post-doc program. Obviously, every dental school will provide you with one. Some schools will make specializing easier than others, there's no argument in that. If you are dead set on something (not that you should be whatsoever before starting school), and you truly work hard and persevere, you will achieve your goal. If there's a will, there's a way.
 
Looks like Harvard is the worst school to go to become a dentist, only a couple each year go onto become general dentists.


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Panis et Circenses said:
What I wonder is if someone went bat-sh** crazy, studied for hours and hours per day and into the wee nighttime hours, and did all extracurriculars they possibly could.. Is it pretty attainable under those circumstances to get into something like ortho or OMFS? Or are there people that still do that and don't get into those specialties?

I just have no idea how hard it would be to get into a specialty like that.

Edit- sorry OP, I know it's off topic. I just got curious all of the sudden.
Click to expand...

My faculty mentor is part of the OMFS department. We were talking about specializing and he mentioned that OMFS isn't as hard to get in as everyone thinks. He said there are 1.4 seats per every applicant and he could only think of one person through 20yrs of teaching that didnt get in somewhere. Not everyone gets in first try, but usually do in next couple years. The length of time/brutal residency scare most people away.


He says pedo/ortho is more competitive.
 
cacajuate said:
My faculty mentor is part of the OMFS department. We were talking about specializing and he mentioned that OMFS isn't as hard to get in as everyone thinks. He said there are 1.4 seats per every applicant and he could only think of one person through 20yrs of teaching that didnt get in somewhere. Not everyone gets in first try, but usually do in next couple years. The length of time/brutal residency scare most people away.


He says pedo/ortho is more competitive.
Click to expand...
That is very interesting. Are these residency slots funded by medicare like medical residency slots?
 
Lol, OP is asking a simple question. What is the percentage of people specializing. Arguments about the interpretation are interesting and so is the argument that specialization rate does not influence entering students chances. It seems that OP gets that. The fact that people may interpret the data to mean that has been mentioned and I'm sure those people can read the several posts with arguments to the contrary.

For this thread a simple "School - %specializing" is all that is needed. Sorry I don't have any specific stats but I'm just trying to get this thread back on track. Simple numbers and percentages. Think of this as separating your Results section from the Discussion section.
 
cacajuate said:
My faculty mentor is part of the OMFS department. We were talking about specializing and he mentioned that OMFS isn't as hard to get in as everyone thinks. He said there are 1.4 seats per every applicant and he could only think of one person through 20yrs of teaching that didnt get in somewhere. Not everyone gets in first try, but usually do in next couple years. The length of time/brutal residency scare most people away.


He says pedo/ortho is more competitive.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I always thought peds was much less competitive than OMFS.
 
Panis et Circenses said:
That is very interesting. Are these residency slots funded by medicare like medical residency slots?
Click to expand...

Not sure.

Advance said:
Interesting. I always thought peds was much less competitive than OMFS.
Click to expand...

Same. Always thought OMFS was most difficult, he says people are trending away from it.


Suppose if I was really interesting in any of it, I would go check numbers....




Another interesting thing from school today. We had guest dentist come speak to us on occasion and one of the topics brought up was the hours that this particular dentists worked. Her hours were pretty straight forward but many of her urban dentists friends are starting to be open from 7 to 7. She said urban practices are starting to figure out that people won't take off of work for cleanings, only will for restorative work. So to get the restorative work from cleanings, they are expanding hours......:uhno:
 
Panis et Circenses said:
That is very interesting. Are these residency slots funded by medicare like medical residency slots?
Click to expand...

Depends on the program. For Peds, it generally depends on whether we are affiliated with a hospital or with a dental school. Most hospital affilated/hospital based programs are able to obtain GME funding because the residents take emergency call. In those programs, peds dental residents are paid just like any other resident in the hospital, PGY-1 and PGY-2 status. Programs that pay stipends/salaries are usually more competitive than those that charge tuition.
 
cacajuate said:
Not sure.



Same. Always thought OMFS was most difficult, he says people are trending away from it.


Suppose if I was really interesting in any of it, I would go check numbers....




Another interesting thing from school today. We had guest dentist come speak to us on occasion and one of the topics brought up was the hours that this particular dentists worked. Her hours were pretty straight forward but many of her urban dentists friends are starting to be open from 7 to 7. She said urban practices are starting to figure out that people won't take off of work for cleanings, only will for restorative work. So to get the restorative work from cleanings, they are expanding hours......:uhno:
Click to expand...
7-7? That sounds terrible. 😕
 
Advance said:
7-7? That sounds terrible. 😕
Click to expand...


I know. She says usually for group practices so they can split shifts.

In saturated markets, 10am-2pm is apparently pretty slow.



enough with the wet blanket, she still says dentistry (rural, more so than city) is still very profitable, just the business models are shifting a bit.




@personalstatementsbyeric you're welcome for high jacking your thread. Everyone is right though, you can specialize from any school if you try.
 
cacajuate said:
My faculty mentor is part of the OMFS department. We were talking about specializing and he mentioned that OMFS isn't as hard to get in as everyone thinks. He said there are 1.4 seats per every applicant and he could only think of one person through 20yrs of teaching that didnt get in somewhere. Not everyone gets in first try, but usually do in next couple years. The length of time/brutal residency scare most people away.
Click to expand...

That's not only objectively wrong, it's aggressively, objectively wrong. These data are readily available with a google search (https://www.natmatch.com/dentres/stats/2016applstats.html). Last year, there were 374 applicants who ranked OMS programs and 221 who ended up matching. That means of the candidates who received at least one interview (data for pure number of applicants in not available) that there were 1.7 applicants per available seat. This statistic is roughly the same for Peds and Ortho. This doesn't necessarily speak to competitiveness though, as there is likely significant self-selection as well as other factors affecting this (non-match programs do not exist for OMS, whereas they do for Ortho and I'm unsure if they do for Peds)
 
personalstatementsbyeric said:
Make of these numbers what you will. But they are at the end of the day just that. Numbers. Without bias.
Click to expand...

Numbers without bias? I only wish it was possible for me to view the world with such fresh and idealistic eyes. But there are lies, damned lies, and statistics; with a little practice it's easy to determine exactly what someone is trying to show by looking at the statistics they use. That's because statistics are like a good bikini: what they reveal is much less interesting than what they're hiding.

Reading your posts, you seem to be trying to answer a question with the data you're gathering.

personalstatementsbyeric said:
Both my parents are Orthodontists and naturally I want to follow in their footsteps.
Click to expand...

I think it's great you're harnessing your inherent curiosity and applying it in the attempt to make the world a better place: making easier the question of "which of these dental schools should I choose?" I think your study methodology leaves something to be desired though. Lets examine it. You've already come to your conclusion (dental school specialty rates influence the chances a prospective student matriculating at that school being accepted to their specialty of choice) and are seeking data to aid in your personal decision making, even to determine a rank list! Not only is this begging the question, but also a general case of the ecological fallacy. Given that, there's no particular reason to even gather this data, as your original goal (making easier the question of "which of these dental schools should I choose?") won't be aided by polluting the waters with a meaningless statistic.

My interest is piqued, though. How would one go about designing a sound and valid study that would address your hypothesis?
 
Yes, they are simply numbers. But a quantitative analysis without qualitative scrutiny does not provide an accurate picture in this case.
Just like others said, go somewhere cheaper (unless money is not a factor), or you can go to any of the schools that you mentioned in your list as they historically have good specialization rates, work your butt off, and specialize.

If you strictly want nothing but the numbers, then I think that you can do that legwork on your own.
 
armorshell said:
That's not only objectively wrong, it's aggressively, objectively wrong. These data are readily available with a google search (https://www.natmatch.com/dentres/stats/2016applstats.html). Last year, there were 374 applicants who ranked OMS programs and 221 who ended up matching. That means of the candidates who received at least one interview (data for pure number of applicants in not available) that there were 1.7 applicants per available seat. This statistic is roughly the same for Peds and Ortho. This doesn't necessarily speak to competitiveness though, as there is likely significant self-selection as well as other factors affecting this (non-match programs do not exist for OMS, whereas they do for Ortho and I'm unsure if they do for Peds)
Click to expand...


Thanks for doing the research that I was too lazy to do. Still better odds than I expected for OMFS.
 
Why does every specialization thread have comments essentially shaming people for wanting to specialize? Most specialists I know said they went into school knowing they wanted to do X and now they do X. Yeah, it's unreasonable to say "I wanna do ortho" when the only experience with an orthodontist is getting braces, but still. Of course you have to learn to stand before you can flip, but you can still have goals to keep you on track.


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Nobody is shaming anyone. But, I would like to keep this thread stictly numbers and no opinions. We are grown ups and formule them for ourselves. If you have a post graduation factsheet detailing post graduation speciality endeavors, great. If not, please seek out the many threads that "argue" this topic of discussion.
spressomfs said:
Why does every specialization thread have comments essentially shaming people for wanting to specialize? Most specialists I know said they went into school knowing they wanted to do X and now they do X. Yeah, it's unreasonable to say "I wanna do ortho" when the only experience with an orthodontist is getting braces, but still. Of course you have to learn to stand before you can flip, but you can still have goals to keep you on track.


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Click to expand...
 
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