UNC vs Duke pathology

[adn]

Has anyone ever compared these two programs?
I really like both of them, and it's hard to figure out which to put in front.
UNC seems a bit more relax, less surgical path cases, but more fellowship position.
Duke has big name, and very strong AP training, longer working hour, but less fellowship.
Any inside thoughts about either of them?

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[adn]

come on, nobody?

 

[deleted314957]

where?

 

[mlw03]

Since you desire a reply: I have no useful knowledge of either program.

 

[dr4n6]

Have firsthand experience with both programs, albeit rather dated knowledge and experience. What do you want to know?

 

[adn]

Great!
I feel residents in UNC are very happy and more relaxed, but their surgical path cases are less than 30K, I don't know if it will affect training.
Duke has big name, but I heard it is consider malignant for once. However, when I visited there, I found the residents are real happy, no complaining and very proud about their program. Definitely Duke is busier than UNC, with twice surgical path volume. I have no doubt about the training Duke can offer. But my concern is whether it's worthy to go for a busy place, if I can get similar training in a lay back program.
Another question is that UNC seems have more fellowship option than Duke, I'm very surprised that there are only 3 fellows in Duke. Although they claim their graduates can go to anywhere they want, but I'm still a little disappointed.

 

[Thrombus]

UNC has less than 30K specimens?

I count 30 residents and fellows on their website!!!


Then I click on their faculty page and there are like 100 faculty!!!

What the heck is going on?

They should have 1-2 residents and 5-6 faculty at a program this size.

 

[adn]

Obviously you didn't click enough. see here for surgical path cases. "In 2007, there were over 23,000 accessions in the surgical pathology laboratory, 24,000 accessions in the cytopathology laboratory, and 4.5 million procedures in the clinical laboratories."
http://www.med.unc.edu/pathology/residency-program-in-pathology/facilities-and-local-area

 

[mlw03]

Are you planning to sign out all 23K cases yourself? If not, you should be more interested in resident workload and diversity of specimens. If the 23K includes the right mix, it's plenty. 80K but all GI biopsies is not what you want either. These are the kinds of questions you should be emailing to the chief residents at UNC.

 

[adn]

Everybody says good thing about their own program, that's why I asked for second opinion here.

 

[BeeDrizzle13]

Alright I'll chime in since I interviewed at both places this application cycle. I don't know what the current surg path volume is at UNC, but they are highly subspecialized which suggests it's more than 27,000 if it was indeed that low 6 years ago. If you want the actual number just email someone in the program. Now, I know Duke has about 48,000.

My impression at both places is that the residents are satisfied with their training. Also, they were all very collegial on interview day -- no red flags so to speak. As far as research opportunities just based on my subjective memory it would seem like Duke has slightly more, although not too much.

All in all these programs are remarkably similar. Duke has a more prestigious name, but not because of it's hospital necessarily. It's because of the undergrad university.

So, my advice is the same as you'll get anywhere else on this forum -- you've gotta go with your gut on the decision. Try to think about how you will fit in with the residents. Would you rather live in Chapel Hill or Durham? Things like that.

 

[mlw03]

Everybody says good thing about their own program, that's why I asked for second opinion here.

That's just not true. A good chief resident will tell you the good and the bad of their program. This is an objective thing anyway, at least somewhat. If most of your specimens come from a VA for example, you're not seeing as much gyn and breast pathology. You also asked for a second opinion here, but there's no accountability on here - people can create profile and say whatever they want practically. This is part of a chief resident's job. If you have specific questions, ask people really involved and accountable.

I'm not looking to pick on you specifically, but med students comes on here every year and seem to ask for advice from total strangers about a very personal decision. That's just not a good idea.

 

[2121115]

That's just not true. A good chief resident will tell you the good and the bad of their program.

Not true in my experience. One of the primary role's for chief residents is recruiting, and their job is to sell, sell, sell. You absolutely cannot let bad info get out on the recruiting trail and let rumor take its course. You need everyone to like your program, even the candidates you don't want, because once a rumor starts along the interview trail it spreads like wildfire to other programs.

 

[skramer3786]

Hello,

I posted previously about Duke on another thread (search the history of my posts to find it) but i wanted to reiterate that I am very happy there. I'm currently half-way through my first year and I feel like we are given the right amount of responsibility and oversight in order to make us confident and reliable pathologists. I get along really well with all of my colleagues.

I also enjoyed my day at UNC last year when I toured there. The residents seemed like a great bunch of people and they got along well with each other. The program director seemed like a really nice guy.

I ended up ranking Duke first and UNC third and would have been happy at either. I think it's great that you've found multiple programs that you think would be good fits for you. Like have 5 Aces on a baseball team and deciding who to start in game 1, this is a good problem to have.

Hopefully you get the school you rank first! Good luck,
Steven

 

[mlw03]

Not true in my experience. One of the primary role's for chief residents is recruiting, and their job is to sell, sell, sell. You absolutely cannot let bad info get out on the recruiting trail and let rumor take its course. You need everyone to like your program, even the candidates you don't want, because once a rumor starts along the interview trail it spreads like wildfire to other programs.

That's not how I viewed my job. I answered any question honestly. I didn't give a poop if they matched all FMGs - I have to look myself in the mirror and I'm not lying to someone who asks me, "What are some of the things that need improvement at your program?" This sort of silly gamesman ship is why there is so little trust between programs and applicants.

 

[dr4n6]

Did residency at Duke and a fellowship at UNC, but as mentioned some time back. You will get adequate training at either venue. I was AP only and at the time the CP program at Duke was rather weak, which was not an issue for me. I do recall that a significant percentage of Duke residents were AP only and the ones that did do CP struggled with their CP boards. My recommendation is to just pick which ever program you feel more comfortable with, as it will most likely meet your end goals.

 

[adn]

Thanks Steven and dr4n6. These 2 programs are pretty similar and I'll be happy in either of them.

 

[Euchromatin]

That's not how I viewed my job. I answered any question honestly. I didn't give a poop if they matched all FMGs - I have to look myself in the mirror and I'm not lying to someone who asks me, "What are some of the things that need improvement at your program?" This sort of silly gamesman ship is why there is so little trust between programs and applicants.

Although our residents (chiefs and everyone else) try to be pretty honest with our applicants about what we like/dislike and think are strengths/weaknesses of our program, I think there is probably some degree of salesmanship going on at the vast majority of programs. To what extent residents at individual programs take that "selling" most likely varies dramatically from relatively innocent highlighting of genuine strengths to more questionably ethical maneuvers like omitting relevant info about faults or flat out lying. We also expect applicants to try and "sell" themselves as well and sometimes have to take things they tell us with a grain of salt.

Because the quality of the residency program overall (including the quality of future residents) will reflect on you as a resident and later a graduate of the program, I think it is in most people's best interest (even those who are unhappy with their current program, to some extent) to recruit the best applicants that they can to their own program. I would certainly give lots of poops if the quality of our program went down the toilet (hehehe) and it was suddenly filled with all non-desirable FMG candidates - it would decrease the marketability/value of my residency training there.

 

[mlw03]

This is a good post, and I agree with most of what you say. Perhaps my situation is different, because in FP most people don't care too much about where you did residency. They care a bit about where you did fellowship, but since it's such a small group personal reputation is what matters most. While I would like to see my program remain solidly in the mid-tier, I have no personal stake either way. That reality allowed me to be honest.

I get why this poster created this thread, and there's no specific harm in doing so. But I would argue the anonymity of the internet partly cancels out the potential benefit. It's also much easy to outright lie in writing on the internet than face to face, over the phone, or in a personal email exchange. For all the questions residents have, I received surprisingly few follow-up questions from applicants. This poster should take both comments here and comments in response to specific questions to current residents at UNC and/or Duke into his/her decision.

Although our residents (chiefs and everyone else) try to be pretty honest with our applicants about what we like/dislike and think are strengths/weaknesses of our program, I think there is probably some degree of salesmanship going on at the vast majority of programs. To what extent residents at individual programs take that "selling" most likely varies dramatically from relatively innocent highlighting of genuine strengths to more questionably ethical maneuvers like omitting relevant info about faults or flat out lying. We also expect applicants to try and "sell" themselves as well and sometimes have to take things they tell us with a grain of salt.

Because the quality of the residency program overall (including the quality of future residents) will reflect on you as a resident and later a graduate of the program, I think it is in most people's best interest (even those who are unhappy with their current program, to some extent) to recruit the best applicants that they can to their own program. I would certainly give lots of poops if the quality of our program went down the toilet (hehehe) and it was suddenly filled with all non-desirable FMG candidates - it would decrease the marketability/value of my residency training there.

 

[KCShaw]

Yeah.. there's generally some salesmanship, and at times you'll have to read between the lines. But if you ask the right questions at the right times you can often find out a good bit that ain't on the brochure. I think I got pretty decent honesty from the residents & chiefs I interviewed with, and I tried to give it in turn. Keep in mind that many chiefs are final year (though a fair number may not be) and aren't even going to be around when you get there -- meaning may be a little less invested in whether you join them or not, even if they'd prefer their own program not collapse for lack of quality residents. No place is perfect, and anyone who oversells their place as such is probably flicking you boogers. That said, some people drink the kool-aid and don't allow themselves to see beyond what they want to see.

As for specifically Duke/UNC, I have no personal experience with either. 30k surgicals over 30 residents seems like an odd ratio to me, assuming those numbers are accurate, but, eh, I dunno. There's probably more to the picture and it's the whole package you want to consider when ranking.