Under what circumstances should a pre-med matriculate in the Caribbean?

[Glandzburg]

There is no cut and dry answer. I was that person 5 years ago, when all these same things were being said on this website, and now I'm in a university IM program. So depending on the reasons my child couldn't get into a US school, sure I would honestly be OK with them going to the Caribbean.

People act like everyone that goes down there are exactly the same and have an equal chance of failing out, which is obviously not the case. A nontraditional with poor undergrad degree performance but good MCAT scores/premed grades (which describes me) is different than a 22 year old recent graduate who "always knew they wanted to be a doctor" but just couldn't handle the workload.

Fair enough, thanks for your response.

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[Lawpy]

There is a lot of group think and overly negative opinions on SDN, but I think SDN's view of Caribs is good even if it exaggerates the situation.

A large portion of people considering Caribs come from backgrounds where they wouldn't know that going abroad would be bad. My mom suggested going to Carib schools as a way of saving money and it could have saved money. I would have considered it as a valid option if it weren't for sites like this. Growing up, I saw random Carib physicians, so I never would have guessed that so many people don't sucessfully become doctors out of Carib schools. It's good that people are being warned

Yeah, maybe Caribs can match somewhere, but it won't likely be in their specialty of choice or the location of their choice. Going DO would be a significantly better option. If you can't get into a DO school, you aren't really trying (you can retake courses to improve your gpa) or you have such a large red flag that maybe medicine isn't a good path to follow. With the forgiveness offered by DO admissions there really is no justifiable reason to choose the Carib. Even if 70% of Caribs students graduate and match in some IM, psych, or family med residency, why take that risk when DO schools exist?

Im missing the groupthink somewhere. What are the reasons for going to Caribbean schools? i'm genuinely curious because i thought the US MD and DO schools do a good job accepting applicants of various situations and backgrounds even despite the score creep and competition spike.

 

[Mansamusa]

Im missing the groupthink somewhere. What are the reasons for going to Caribbean schools? i'm genuinely curious because i thought the US MD and DO schools do a good job accepting applicants of various situations and backgrounds even despite the score creep and competition spike.

I was saying that there is group think on lots of things on SDN. And then I said but SDN's view on Caribs schools is good. In other words, I was saying that even though there is group think on SDN, the view on Carib schools isn't merely group think.

In the rest of my post I said that there is absolutely no reason to go Carib over DO

 

[Med Ed]

Of course we don't know the numbers for each school. But you can easily surmise that the number of reapplicants is very high as the average time since graduation of the unmatched cohort is 5.7 years. Unless people are graduating and waiting half a decade to apply for the first time, its pretty safe to say they are reapplicants. I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about the 5.7 years since graduation...

Nothing, but this still doesn't answer the question I am asking, which is essentially to differentiate the effect of being from a Caribbean school from the effect of being a lousy candidate in the match (although the two are certainly not mutually exclusive).

 

[Med Ed]

did you read the NEJM piece? They include osteopathic medical schools. You are acting like the numbers of matriculants doesn't exist and all we have are assertions. The numbers do exist, and they show it hasn't happened yet, and over the next 8-10 years it will happen at a very slow rate.

I know the numbers exist, but I'm not exactly preparing a manuscript for peer-review.

Speaking of which, I did read the NEJM piece just now, and it sounds great... if you're a domestic medical school graduate. Currently, by your own admission, there are >6,300 IMG/FMG matches per year, and the author (who you quoted above) states: "Under this likely scenario, there would still be about 4500 more available positions than U.S. graduates in 2023–2024."

In other words, between now and 2023-2024 the number of IMG/FMG matches may shrink from >6,300/year to ~4,500/year, a loss of at least 28.6%. This will make it harder for international graduates to find a position.

Which is what everyone else on this thread has been saying.

 

[Lawpy]

I was saying that there is group think on lots of things on SDN. And then I said but SDN's view on Caribs schools is good. In other words, I was saying that even though there is group think on SDN, the view on Carib schools isn't merely group think.

In the rest of my post I said that there is absolutely no reason to go Carib over DO

i wasn't disagreeing with you. I don't know how there is a groupthink here. Doesn't a groupthink require some people on SDN to have views that Carib schools is a good idea? But the issue here is that i don't find any reasons here saying why Carib is a good idea, so i don't know how this is a groupthink.

 

[Med Ed]

Of course we don't know the numbers for each school. But you can easily surmise that the number of reapplicants is very high as the average time since graduation of the unmatched cohort is 5.7 years. Unless people are graduating and waiting half a decade to apply for the first time, its pretty safe to say they are reapplicants. I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about the 5.7 years since graduation...

P.S. In perusing the Charting Outcomes for IMG's report you were kind enough to link, I did notice that in Table 2 (the same one your 5.7 years came from), the mean time since graduation for successful matches is 1.7 years. How does that happen?

 

[Med Ed]

Part of the problem is that they used means for non-normally distributed data. The outliers skew the data

I am guilty of being a bit rhetorical.

 

[Sardinia]

@the argus Would you have gone through Dominica again after the entire experience of living on the island? Also how was IMF and how well did Ross prepare you for Step 1 / Step 2?

 

[the argus]

I know the numbers exist, but I'm not exactly preparing a manuscript for peer-review.

Speaking of which, I did read the NEJM piece just now, and it sounds great... if you're a domestic medical school graduate. Currently, by your own admission, there are >6,300 IMG/FMG matches per year, and the author (who you quoted above) states: "Under this likely scenario, there would still be about 4500 more available positions than U.S. graduates in 2023–2024."

In other words, between now and 2023-2024 the number of IMG/FMG matches may shrink from >6,300/year to ~4,500/year, a loss of at least 28.6%. This will make it harder for international graduates to find a position.

Which is what everyone else on this thread has been saying.

What I have been saying is, 1) the increase in US grads hasn't affected the number of IMG matches yet, and 2) when it does start to happen it will happen very gradually. If you think the reality of no losses of positions yet, and ~25% loss over the next 8-10 years with ~4500 spots still available, lines up with rhetoric like "russian roulette with a pistol," then I guess you're right.

 

[the argus]

@the argus Would you have gone through Dominica again after the entire experience of living on the island? Also how was IMF and how well did Ross prepare you for Step 1 / Step 2?

I loved my time on the island, but I'm probably in the minority with that opinion. Things have changed a lot over the past 5-10 years. There is now an IGA grocery store right next to campus, I think the power went out once for ~3 hours over the 16 months I was there, fast internet with no outages. It's also called "the nature island of the Caribbean" for a reason as the outdoor activities are awesome. Diving/snorkeling is pristine, hiking, etc.

That said there are still inconveniences like the water supply is chlorinated from local rivers and when it rains real hard the water becomes muddy and it will get shut off so that the mud doesn't clog the pipes. This usually only lasts less than a day, and the school always has potable water available, but it can be annoying. There are no malls, movie theaters, etc. If you need a particular brand of cereal/shampoo/etc, you'll likely not be able to get it regularly. Hurricanes are rare but they do occur (like this past year).

In terms of the school, I obviously have nothing to compare it to but I thought the education was very good. Talking to friends that have gone through US medical schools, the education seems to be comparable. You do clinical skills throughout the first 4 semesters, and there is a brand new sim lab that opened when I started in 2011. They provide adequate step 1/2 prep (clinical vignettes, online case modules during clinicals, shelf exams, etc), but honestly no matter where you go to medical school, Step1/2 prep is 95% self-directed and up to the individual to be on top of. They have changed IMF since I was there so I can't comment on that.

The common talking point on Caribbean schools is, "they are just a business and don't care about student outcomes as long as they get their money," which I don't think is completely true. The issue is they will basically accept anyone and give the opportunity to prove yourself. Some people think this is unethical and believe there should be a filtering aspect to med school admissions to somewhat "save people from themselves." You can make your own opinion on that. Ross will provide tutoring and help students that are struggling, but they also will not think twice before failing you.

There's good and bad. In my experience it was overwhelmingly good, but that's certainly not the case for everyone. The best you can do is gather as much info as possible and then make your decision. Unfortunately there are many biased individuals on this forum that make getting reliable info difficult, and the school isn't overly generous with providing that info either.

 

[Anicetus]

SDN people rely on statistics without relying on the personal student.

OP: if you were a decent student in college (3.2-3.5 GPA, just below average Mcat) and just got unlucky with the U.S. MD schools I'm pretty sure you'd rock the competition in the Caribbean. I have 7 friends who went to the Caribbean and so far all the ones who graduated have matched in the U.S. On their first try.

The fail rates people keep referring to are the poor students who couldn't even gain admission to any post grad program (<2.5 GPA etc)

 

[GrapesofRath]

SDN people rely on statistics without relying on the personal student.

OP: if you were a decent student in college (3.2-3.5 GPA, just below average Mcat) and just got unlucky with the U.S. MD schools I'm pretty sure you'd rock the competition in the Caribbean. I have 7 friends who went to the Caribbean and so far all the ones who graduated have matched in the U.S. On their first try.

The fail rates people keep referring to are the poor students who couldn't even gain admission to any post grad program (<2.5 GPA etc)

You really should see the people left in the SOAP. Caribbean grads, 230+ Step 1's, strong grades all around and not a single program is still willing to take them. Happens much more than any Caribbean apologist would ever want to admit. Nobody is guaranteed a residency coming from the Caribbean regardless of performance. Nobody.

And those who "rock" it in the Caribbean could have easily gotten into a DO school had they waited a year or two to solidify their app and in turn greatly expand their resdiency options.

 

[22031 Alum]

SDN people rely on statistics without relying on the personal student.

So basically you expect people giving advice to not use statistics and generalizable trends?? You're honestly advocating that individual anecdotes trump everything? I don't even know how to respond to an honest-to-God medical student who thinks that's how things work.

 

[TBV]

I appreciate the fervor with which the argus sells his sinking ship though

 

[texan2414]

There's an awful lot of toxicity on this thread. People need to learn the respect differences of opinion and argue about them in a rational manner. No matter what, I think everyone can agree on the fact that it is up to the person to do relevant research before deciding on matriculating at a Carribbean school.

 

[the argus]

You really should see the people left in the SOAP. Caribbean grads, 230+ Step 1's, strong grades all around and not a single program is still willing to take them. Happens much more than any Caribbean apologist would ever want to admit. Nobody is guaranteed a residency coming from the Caribbean regardless of performance. Nobody.

And those who "rock" it in the Caribbean could have easily gotten into a DO school had they waited a year or two to solidify their app and in turn greatly expand their resdiency options.

This is exactly the kind of fear mongering, fact-less posts I am talking about. How do you know the stats of Caribbean grads in the SOAP, are you privy to information that no one else has? Check out the charting outcomes documents. The average step 1 score for matched US-IMGs in FM is <210.

I appreciate the fervor with which the argus sells his sinking ship though

Who is selling anything? Check out my posting history, I always say people should do 2-3 cycles of US applications before even considering the Caribbean. I just think once people are making that decision they should have the most accurate info possible. The problem is there are many people on this forum who just make ridiculous statements based in no facts, exemplified by many of the posts in this thread.

 

[Med Ed]

What I have been saying is, 1) the increase in US grads hasn't affected the number of IMG matches yet, and 2) when it does start to happen it will happen very gradually. If you think the reality of no losses of positions yet, and ~25% loss over the next 8-10 years with ~4500 spots still available, lines up with rhetoric like "russian roulette with a pistol," then I guess you're right.

It's interesting, but if you look back at some of the historical NRMP data I do think there is evidence of strain, although it is muddied by the all-in policy. Consider the following PGY-1 data:

Year: 2005
Positions unfilled by domestic applicants: 6,053
IMG/FMG applicants who registered with NRMP: 12,450
IMG/FMG applicants who submitted a rank order list: 7,645
Number of IMG/FMG grads who matched: 4,230

Unfilled positions after match: 1,694
Unfilled categorical: 994
Unfilled prelim: 700

Year: 2015
Positions unfilled by domestic applicants: 7,360
IMG/FMG applicants who registered with NRMP: 16,977
IMG/FMG applicants who submitted a rank order list: 12,380
Number of IMG/FMG grads who matched: 5,901

Unfilled positions after match: 1,041
Unfilled categorical: 378
Unfilled prelim: 663

In 2005 there were 1.26 active IMG/FMG applicants per seat unfilled by domestic applicants. In 2015 this number increased to 1.68, meaning more competition per seat. The number of positions unfilled by anyone has also decreased from almost 1,700 to just over 1,000, with two thirds of the positions being one-year prelims (mostly surgery). I will certainly be watching this develop over the next few years to see if things worsen, and if so, how quickly.

Also, the projected loss I mentioned above was at least 28.6% over 7-8 years, not ~25% over 8-10 years, but thank you for the embellishment.

Also, Russian roulette with a pistol was in specific reference to AISM and CMU, but thank you for improperly contextualizing the comment.

 

[the argus]

Also, the projected loss I mentioned above was at least 28.6% over 7-8 years, not ~25% over 8-10 years, but thank you for the embellishment.

What you call embellishment, I just call, you know, being able to add.

That NEJM piece uses data up until 2014-15. So from 2015/16 until 2023/24 would be, count it with me, 9 YEARS (15/16 one, 16/17 two, 17/18 three, 18/19 four, 19/20 five, 20/21 six, 21/22 seven, 22/23 eight, 23/24 nine). Pretty sure saying 8-10 includes 9. These are projections, not meant to be taken to the number, which is why I (very appropriately) said 8-10 years.

And I said ~25% (that little squiggly line means approximately!) because these are projections. I think most people would agree that saying ~25% for a 9 year projection of 28.6% is not being dishonest or embellishing, but to each his own I guess.

 

[WingedOx]

So basically you expect people giving advice to not use statistics and generalizable trends?? You're honestly advocating that individual anecdotes trump everything? I don't even know how to respond to an honest-to-God medical student who thinks that's how things work.

That's the same poster who compared taking a job in the Dakotas to slavery. He/she isn't exactly the brightest contributor here.

 

[holidayprincess]

At first I was thinking "never". But, then I thought about why and I didn't have a great answer.

If you want to, do it. Why not?

What's the real harm? Walking into it without evaluating the options? If you're here on SDN, you're evaluating options (even if somewhat myopically).
You're going to get your money stolen? Nonsense. You're paying for access to an education, and the hard work is up to you. The fact that ANYONE passes Step 1 means they're teaching something relevant. Do they give the lowest stat applicants a shot? They sure do. So what? Who else will?

I feel like my earlier position came from wanting to "protect the physician brand", not from protecting the applicants from a mistake. It makes me feel ugly just thinking about it.

If you have moxie and low* stats and you really want to be an MD, do it.

But if you're kind of a smart slacker who wants an easy way to an MD, I think we can all agree that there isn't one. The stats you guys are debating sort of proves that.

 

[Sardinia]

At first I was thinking "never". But, then I thought about why and I didn't have a great answer. If you want to, do it. Why not? What's the real harm? Walking into it without evaluating the options? If you're here on SDN, you're evaluating options (even if somewhat myopically). You're going to get your money stolen? Nonsense. You're paying for access to an education, and the hard work is up to you. The fact that ANYONE passes Step 1 means they're teaching something relevant. Do they give the lowest stat applicants a shot? They sure do. So what? Who else will? I feel like my earlier position came from wanting to "protect the physician brand", not from protecting the applicants from a mistake. It makes me feel ugly just thinking about it. If you have moxie and low* stats and you really want to be an MD, do it. But if you're kind of a smart slacker who wants an easy way to an MD, I think we can all agree that there isn't one. The stats you guys are debating sort of proves that.

Medical students pay four years of tuition to become a physician, not to pay for the medical school experience. I worked in a law firm for a number of years to see law graduates beg for work experience AFTER graduating from law school for NO COMPENSATION because they could not even begin from ground zero without getting actual experience because the scope of practice in practicing an actual field cannot be obtained from three years of a law school education.

The AAMC should protect their brand because that is what allows physicians as a profession to retain whatever diminishing integrity is left in becoming a doctor. The education bubble is continuing to get saturated with bottom feeder schools trying to cash in on students. They are not working in your self-interest nor do they believe that your interests come first and foremost when it comes to certain schools that accept as many students as possible in order to make it work. The ABA is a primary example of an institution that refuses to call out fraudulent practices performed by a majority of law schools outside the T-14 with respect to skewing employment statistics to make themselves look favorable to desperate students leading to the aforementioned condition I listed above. In fact for certain schools the ABA cited statistics are presented verbatim from the information sent by the schools themselves.

Thereby many students who are looking to compile information simply have repetitive misinformation rather than an actual golden standard making it impossible for them to get an accurate read on any school outside of the U.S. News Ranking.

@the argus is the exception to the rule for most Ross students when you consider that his graduating class likely had many, many students drop out for not being able to keep up with the curriculum and even then only 1/4 of his class getting residency positions is not a favorable outcome for someone who has spent that much money and effort into graduating from Ross.

It's not only Caribbean schools that are saturating the physician market if we were looking at this in entirely skeptical terms. The issue with the Caribbean schools is that not only are they saturating the market, they are saturating the market with unemployment which negatively impacts not only the market for physicians, but may leak into the employment ecosystem for physician assistants in due time.

The issues with ABA and Law School employment integrity has been profiled by an adcom named Paul Campos who is a professor at the Law School of Colorado Boulder. He has a blog which he discontinued, but still has his hold posts written in case you want to check them out.

I also think this applies in general to the Big 4, but they require you to take a pre-Step 1 exam that you need to get a high score on before they allow you to take the Step 1 and if you fail the exam it is analogous to failing the program. Compared to his entering class @the argus is the exception to the rule and should not be viewed as the rule in and of itself.

 

[Med Ed]

What you call embellishment, I just call, you know, being able to add.

That NEJM piece uses data up until 2014-15. So from 2015/16 until 2023/24 would be, count it with me, 9 YEARS (15/16 one, 16/17 two, 17/18 three, 18/19 four, 19/20 five, 20/21 six, 21/22 seven, 22/23 eight, 23/24 nine). Pretty sure saying 8-10 includes 9. These are projections, not meant to be taken to the number, which is why I (very appropriately) said 8-10 years.

I notice you glossed over the meat and went straight for the minutiae. No matter.

My calculation was not based solely on the NEJM piece. I used a current international student match total of >6,300 as the starting point (this number came from you, actually, in post #88 on this thread). Surely you will agree that this number is stable since, as you have repeatedly reminded us, it has not changed in 10-15 years.

Considering it is now 2016, counting forward to 2023-2024 I actually do come back to 7-8 years, not 8-10. Perhaps you will at least agree that it is more helpful to say the position gap will shrink to 4,500 7-8 years from now, rather than 8-10 years from last year.

And I said ~25% (that little squiggly line means approximately!) because these are projections. I think most people would agree that saying ~25% for a 9 year projection of 28.6% is not being dishonest or embellishing, but to each his own I guess.

I am just not sure why, after taking the time to hit “shift ~” and then “2”, your finger could not be bothered to move just a little further beyond "5”, coming to rest on the "8". It’s not like I’m asking for the moon here, the moon being “.6”. This may seem silly, but it displays a tendency I have noticed in others who do not like being challenged by data, in which they tweak the numbers a bit here and shave them a bit there until the cognitive dissonance is sufficiently eased.

I actually thought the 28.6% was being rather charitable, considering the categorical positions will get taken first, and that not all of the projected 4,500 positions will fill.

Lastly, when discussing match rates we always conveniently gloss over the applicants who withdraw or do not submit a rank order list. In the last go-round this constituted 27.5% of US-IMG’s who registered for the match. I do wonder how many of these individuals got a position outside the match and how many simply got no interviews.

 

[lyana]

None, you go to the Caribbean for a vacation.

 

[holidayprincess]

Medical students pay four years of tuition to become a physician, not to pay for the medical school experience.

But they pay for the education. The same way a law student pays for her JD. It doesn't mean they'll pass the bar, get a residency, earn a license, graduate, or have a job. That's solely on the student. Carib gives some students access to the chance to get these things they might not have otherwise had. Like Cooley Law, right?

If the argument is "Carib isn't a good deal/gamble", then you're probably right. But if I didn't get into a US MD school, and I had no other options, I would take 40% of something over 100% of nothing.

The AAMC should protect their brand because that is what allows physicians as a profession to retain whatever diminishing integrity is left in becoming a doctor.

I leave integrity up to the individual. They're the one who has to commit to the hard work in the first place. The AAMC, the ABA, the AMA, or the ASPCA can do whatever they want. If a student goes to the Carib, earns an MD, completes a residency, gets a license, then they're a doctor. I don't think training at Ross (or anywhere) makes a physician an automatic 2nd class citizen impugning the diminishing dignity of the class doctors who think they trained at better schools. To be honest, that class of doctors is classless in my mind anyway.

@the argus is the exception to the rule for most Ross students when you consider that his graduating class likely had many, many students drop out for not being able to keep up with the curriculum and even then only 1/4 of his class getting residency positions is not a favorable outcome for someone who has spent that much money and effort into graduating from Ross.

It's not only Caribbean schools that are saturating the physician market if we were looking at this in entirely skeptical terms. The issue with the Caribbean schools is that not only are they saturating the market, they are saturating the market with unemployment which negatively impacts not only the market for physicians, but may leak into the employment ecosystem for physician assistants in due time.
Compared to his entering class @the argus is the exception to the rule and should not be viewed as the rule in and of itself.

At this point, we've all bought into the idea that an education has value. Not because it guarantees us a better job (like a good VOTECH school could), but because we're better for the learning. And while you might be right in purely financial terms, it's still an option and some of its graduates still believe they made the right call. But even if they didn't get a US residency or a license, they still got the education. And no matter how much or often someone trivializes it, it does have some value.

So, if you have a 2.5 GPA, a 25 MCAT, and a willingness to do the heavy lifting, go for it.

 

[the argus]

Medical students pay four years of tuition to become a physician, not to pay for the medical school experience. I worked in a law firm for a number of years to see law graduates beg for work experience AFTER graduating from law school for NO COMPENSATION because they could not even begin from ground zero without getting actual experience because the scope of practice in practicing an actual field cannot be obtained from three years of a law school education.

The AAMC should protect their brand because that is what allows physicians as a profession to retain whatever diminishing integrity is left in becoming a doctor. The education bubble is continuing to get saturated with bottom feeder schools trying to cash in on students. They are not working in your self-interest nor do they believe that your interests come first and foremost when it comes to certain schools that accept as many students as possible in order to make it work. The ABA is a primary example of an institution that refuses to call out fraudulent practices performed by a majority of law schools outside the T-14 with respect to skewing employment statistics to make themselves look favorable to desperate students leading to the aforementioned condition I listed above. In fact for certain schools the ABA cited statistics are presented verbatim from the information sent by the schools themselves.

Thereby many students who are looking to compile information simply have repetitive misinformation rather than an actual golden standard making it impossible for them to get an accurate read on any school outside of the U.S. News Ranking.

@the argus is the exception to the rule for most Ross students when you consider that his graduating class likely had many, many students drop out for not being able to keep up with the curriculum and even then only 1/4 of his class getting residency positions is not a favorable outcome for someone who has spent that much money and effort into graduating from Ross.

It's not only Caribbean schools that are saturating the physician market if we were looking at this in entirely skeptical terms. The issue with the Caribbean schools is that not only are they saturating the market, they are saturating the market with unemployment which negatively impacts not only the market for physicians, but may leak into the employment ecosystem for physician assistants in due time.

The issues with ABA and Law School employment integrity has been profiled by an adcom named Paul Campos who is a professor at the Law School of Colorado Boulder. He has a blog which he discontinued, but still has his hold posts written in case you want to check them out.

I also think this applies in general to the Big 4, but they require you to take a pre-Step 1 exam that you need to get a high score on before they allow you to take the Step 1 and if you fail the exam it is analogous to failing the program. Compared to his entering class @the argus is the exception to the rule and should not be viewed as the rule in and of itself.

You've missed the whole point of why I entered this discussion in the first place. I am not the exception. 70% of students that start at Ross end up in an ACGME residency. The percentage is probably higher for SGU. This is the whole point. Outcomes are not nearly as poor as people on this forum make them out to be.

 

[occams_razor]

Do any of the Carib schools give out scholarships?

Then again if you were going to get a huge scholarship you'd probably get into a US school.

yes they do. check out milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com
he was lured with a scholarship and went carib over a DO acceptance.
he started this blog to educate people who are thinking about making the same mistake. it prevented him from matching the specialty he wanted even though he had an amazing app - a 260 on Step 1, 276 on Step 2, honors in every rotation, rank of 4th in his class, and 5 pubs. He wanted to do ortho and applied to 110 programs. Rejected without interview from each one.

 

[QueenJames]

yes they do. check out milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com
he was lured with a scholarship and went carib over a DO acceptance.
he started this blog to educate people who are thinking about making the same mistake. it prevented him from matching the specialty he wanted even though he had an amazing app - a 260 on Step 1, 276 on Step 2, honors in every rotation, rank of 4th in his class, and 5 pubs. He wanted to do ortho and applied to 110 programs. Rejected without interview from each one.

I read that one! Didn't he end up doing Internal med somewhere?

Jesus christ.... those scores are frickin' amazing. If only he went somewhere in the states, he would have an ortho spot no doubt!

 

[DrDarce]

I understand going to the carribean isn't ideal (or necessarily a great idea), but SDN seems to have an exaggerated negative view of them. There are plenty of qualified students going over there because they don't want DO after their name (not saying this is right, but it's a reality) or they are a non-trad that makes the personal decision not to take more years off. These reasons aren't good, but they are reasons why qualified students go over there and why there are successful students. Unqualified students don't make it through pre-clinical years or step 1.

To answer the OP, I feel there are borderline students who could handle med school but don't have quite strong enough applications to get into a US school. After a 1 or 2 cycles applying I think the carribean would be an okay option for them.

 

[Yleio381]

Basically, the reason that there are very few reasons for anyone to matriculate to the Caribbean is because grade replacement for DO exists. If someone is unable to get accepted to a DO program with grade replacement then it's likely that they're a part of the group that would fail out of the Caribbean with a mountain of debt and no way to repay it. The vast majority of the people who succeed in the Caribbean could likely matriculate to DO schools if they utilized the grade replacement option.

That's a major reason that so many people advise against going Caribbean. Outside of extenuating circumstances (red flags, etc.) that would prevent someone entrance to a US medical school, there are no reasons that someone who obtained an acceptance in the Caribbean would not be able to get into a DO school, and if an individual does not fall into that category then they would likely not succeed in the Caribbean.

From my view, that's it. There are no (or very few reasons) that someone should matriculate to the Caribbean instead of retaking courses and applying to DO because if they don't get in DO it's most likely that going to the Caribbean will be a waste of time/money.

 

[Mwooster]

If I get majority stake of the company, then where do I sign the Caribbean med school class reservation form?

In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.
-a very smart man

 

[McSpicy]

A bit anecdotal, but I have several friends that pursued international medical education right after high school and after undergrad because of failure to get into med school in the states or out of fear that they wouldn't be able to. All of them regret it. The dangerous combination of attrition in the pre-clinical years, high pressure to get a score that the normal US MD student would need for ENT/Derm just to get IM at some random hospital, and ridiculously expensive cost make it a bad decision.

Unless you're emptyhanded on your 3rd cycle or you repeatedly failed the MCAT, failed undergrad past the point of no return, or bombed a postbac/SMP, I would highly discourage it.

 

[deleted731525]

I appreciate the fervor with which the argus sells his sinking ship though

To be honest I have yet to see somebody provide a counter argument to his that is backed up by as thorough of an analysis of the available data as his argument is.

 

[Goro]

Argus fails to mention hat many of the numbers he glowingly reports are preliminary positions, which are dead-end one year positions which threw people right back into the match. He also doesn't distinguish how many of the NRMP numbers are actually lousy residencies in unsafe areas.The wise @gyngyn has refuted his comments numerous times.

To be honest I have yet to see somebody provide a counter argument to his that is backed up by as thorough of an analysis of the available data as his argument is.

 

[Med Ed]

To be honest I have yet to see somebody provide a counter argument to his that is backed up by as thorough of an analysis of the available data as his argument is.

One of the issues is that a huge chunk of data is missing, as none of the Caribbean schools will publish comprehensive, objective numbers on enrollment, attrition, or residency placement. Argus states that 70% of Ross matriculants end up an ACGME residency, but that is not verifiable in any way, nor can we get an honest appraisal of the training opportunities open to the US-IMG's who emerge from that pathway.

 

[the argus]

Argus fails to mention hat many of the numbers he glowingly reports are preliminary positions, which are dead-end one year positions which threw people right back into the match. He also doesn't distinguish how many of the NRMP numbers are actually lousy residencies in unsafe areas.The wise @gyngyn has refuted his comments numerous times.

I've answered your nonsense multiple times in the past, I just don't usually have the energy to do it anymore. The short answer is 1) a very small percentage, 2) lousy ACGME residencies leading to full licensure in unsafe areas. The long answer is,

1) in 2015, 2660 US-IMGs matched. Included with that there were 265 PGY-1 only positions, but also 159 advanced positions (this isn't likely all new grads but we can assume it stays relatively constant from year to year). So that leaves ~100-150 potentially dead end matches, coming out to 3-5% of the matches through the NRMP. So if you wanna say only 2500+ US-IMGs, instead of 2600+, I'm OK with that.
2) It takes some large stones for someone who has never walked the walk to repeatedly trash the attendings and residents in all these "lousy" residencies that take Caribbean grads. That's a lot of programs when accounting for the 2600+ US-IMGs that matched (just through the NRMP) last year. Like hundreds of programs actually. Probably like 1000+ attendings, many 1000's of residents. All lousy...

And I'll point out again that you have no idea what you're talking about in any matter past osteopathic med school admissions and basic science curriculum.

 

[the argus]

One of the issues is that a huge chunk of data is missing, as none of the Caribbean schools will publish comprehensive, objective numbers on enrollment, attrition, or residency placement. Argus states that 70% of Ross matriculants end up an ACGME residency, but that is not verifiable in any way

Yea that's what I try to do the best I can. You guys seem to think I have some ulterior motive because my answers don't jive with the false narrative that has been built up on SDN (mostly by a few very loud and persistent individuals), one that really has no basis in reality. As I've said multiple times, every Caribbean school could close tomorrow and it would have no effect on my life at all. But whatever, you guys can believe whatever you want to believe, I'll just pop in occasionally to remind everyone else that it's mostly hogwash and made up.

nor can we get an honest appraisal of the training opportunities open to the US-IMG's who emerge from that pathway.

https://postgrad.sgu.edu/residencyappointmentdirectory.aspx?year=2015
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm
Start here, these are the opportunities open to those emerging from this pathway.

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

So, I'm confused... There are people saying Caribbean is terrible and there are people saying Caribbean is not as bad as people think. But I still can't answer the question "under what circumstances should a pre-med matriculate in the Caribbean."

Let's just say that Caribbean matches at 70% (I doubt anyone wants to argue that this number should've been higher). Why not just go to a DO school where you get a 80%+ shot?? With lower entry criteria AND grade replacement policy, one is bound to get in a DO school somewhere if medicine truly is his or her calling. Well unless someone wants to argue how taking a bigger gamble in the Caribbean trumps over doing an extra year or two of resume boosting/course retaking/MCAT retrying/LOR obtaining activities followed by a DO acceptance letter...

 

[Goro]

One problem right here: Just because the school, or it's students say they match at 70%, doesn't mean it's the truth.

And that's for starters.

You then have to ask "what are they matching into?????"

The people saying the Carib diploma mills "aren't so bad" either haven't been there yet, or have gone through them and been the outliers that were successful, yet are still trying to justify their risky choices, and/or don't realize that the bus is coming where IMGs will be squeezed out of residency positions entirely (one of the major sequelae for the AOA/ACGME merger).

So, I'm confused... There are people saying Caribbean is terrible and there are people saying Caribbean is not as bad as people think. But I still can't answer the question "under what circumstances should a pre-med matriculate in the Caribbean."

Let's just say that Caribbean matches at 70% (I doubt anyone wants to argue that this number should've been higher). Why not just go to a DO school where you get a 80%+ shot?? With lower entry criteria AND grade replacement policy, one is bound to get in a DO school somewhere if medicine truly is his or her calling. Well unless someone wants to argue how taking a bigger gamble in the Caribbean trumps over doing an extra year or two of resume boosting/course retaking/MCAT retrying/LOR obtaining activities followed by a DO acceptance letter...

 

[WingedOx]

So, I'm confused... There are people saying Caribbean is terrible and there is Argus over and over again saying Caribbean is not as bad as people think. But I still can't answer the question "under what circumstances should a pre-med matriculate in the Caribbean."

FTFY.

Yea that's what I try to do the best I can. You guys seem to think I have some ulterior motive because my answers don't jive with the false narrative that has been built up on SDN (mostly by a few very loud and persistent individuals), one that really has no basis in reality. As I've said multiple times, every Caribbean school could close tomorrow and it would have no effect on my life at all. But whatever, you guys can believe whatever you want to believe, I'll just pop in occasionally to remind everyone else that it's mostly hogwash and made up.

no, your motives have always been transparent. You get defensive when people criticize the pathway that you chose.

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

One problem right here: Just because the school, or it's students say they match at 70%, doesn't mean it's the truth.

I get what you are saying and I agree. I just find it a bit absurd when pro Caribbean people try to make the argument, "We are bad. But we are not THAT bad." Like, so what's the point?

one of the major sequelae

Oh come on @Goro , of all the words u could've chosen!! >.< Reminds me of the path stuff I've just read from Robbins... T.T

 

[Sardinia]

@DoReMiFaSo Not everyone has the time or resources to do the repair needed to get into DO school. They consider the Caribbean to be a last option after they've failed getting into D.O. schools. Consensus is that Caribbean was looked at after D.O. admissions for most students on this board.

@Goro The only thing I remember @the argus telling me was that 25% of his graduating class managed to match. Those are horrible ratios to put a six-figure investment, but maybe that's because I have never seen that money before in my bank balance. I have personally yet been able to overcome taking risky investments which is probably why I can only dream the dream.

@WingedOx He's not defensive. IIRC the Caribbean was his only option left after three failed cycles. The fact that he was given the opportunity is a blessing. Honestly if you had burned 2-3 years on application cycles I would also be ecstatic at any opportunity was offered to me. Does it make it a good investment for most people under most circumstances? No. I don't think so. At least not for me.

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

They consider the Caribbean to be a last option after they've failed getting into D.O. schools.

I just don't think they tried hard enough.

Not everyone has the time or resources to do the repair needed to get into DO school.

Expensive? Could be. Dumping 23049234x more $ into 4yrs of Caribbean school with a lower shot at obtaining the end goal? Reckless.

 

[Sardinia]

I just don't think they tried hard enough.

College is a luxury. Most people don't have the money or the resources to go back to school without dealing with loans they can't pay off. The fact that you have these Caribbean schools that tell you that they believe in you and want to give you a chance is alluring, especially for science students. Personally I've been raised in a legal environment and saw the ABA accept the diploma mill scheme to the current point where a Caribbean school makes half these Law Schools look GOOD.

I don't understand what you mean by stating they didn't try hard enough. If you mean in undergrad, then that goes back to the point where retaking classes takes time and is expensive while not factoring the time spent in actually attending school. If these students are really retakes they probably only work part time which pressures them further into the hole when they realize that they need to stop burning cash and actually try to come with a way to make money. This is probably what makes the Caribbean schools an even more tempting option.

Expensive? Could be. Dumping 23049234x more $ into 4yrs of Caribbean school with a lower shot at obtaining the end goal? Reckless.

I've worked a various assortment of jobs to know that the glass ceiling for having a bachelor's degree in science doesn't pay anything. It's a major reason why I went back to the legal field because I personally didn't feel like I was going anywhere working as a hospital technician, scribe, and what have you. I'd be surprised if anyone with a background in science would be happy with being stuck at around $15-20 with a master's degree. Especially when that is becoming the new "minimum wage" in several states and can still barely provide you with the food/housing needed even if you were trying to live out of a box. It's not a reckless decision intrinsically speaking, it's only bad if you're someone who still has yet to tap into all the other options available to you and becoming a physician is a MUST and you can't see any other way of turning a $120,000 investment into positive income.

 

[Med Ed]

Yea that's what I try to do the best I can. You guys seem to think I have some ulterior motive because my answers don't jive with the false narrative that has been built up on SDN (mostly by a few very loud and persistent individuals), one that really has no basis in reality. As I've said multiple times, every Caribbean school could close tomorrow and it would have no effect on my life at all. But whatever, you guys can believe whatever you want to believe, I'll just pop in occasionally to remind everyone else that it's mostly hogwash and made up.

I hope you can understand our conundrum. You say 70% of matriculants get an ACGME residency, but this guy says the attrition is 40-50%, and this article says Ross's six year graduation rate is a mere 66%. The internet is also littered with blogs and comments from current and former Carib students who paint wildly contradictory pictures about their experiences. It is more than a little bewildering.

https://postgrad.sgu.edu/residencyappointmentdirectory.aspx?year=2015
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm
Start here, these are the opportunities open to those emerging from this pathway.

Thanks for the links, but I'm really looking for a more comprehensive dataset that is not put out by the schools themselves.

 

[attitudeofgratitude]

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/2015residencyappointments.cfm

Okay so Ross matched ~830 people in a year.

but they don't tell us how many people start every year.

So googling around gives random estimates... but using the accepted student facebook pages we get '

sept 2015 595
May 2015 378
Jan 2015 364

And this may be low. This site says Ross has been reducing class size in these classes http://medschoolcaribstyle.blogspot.com/2010/12/class-size-and-attrition-rate.html and it's run by a AUC grad maybe by even a factor of two for jan/may classes

those numbers included admin... but not everyone has a facebook so ~1300-1400 start each year (or per the link before even more people for the classes that are matching now!) 830 match.



I don't remember what we're arguing about anymore. I'm glad it worked out for you and works out for a lot of people. just seems like a crazy risk.