Yeah I'm thinking the same, look at his other posts...
Undergraduate Degree From Yale
- Thread starter Jordan Frazier
- Start date
Yeah I'm thinking the same, look at his other posts...
You didn't even look at it!
There are test scores on there too. 1385 SAT and 30.3 ACT are 95Th percentile.
Actually they are more like 96th but let's not get nit picky here.
The point is, A no-name school with Ivy caliber students bunched into science classes with no grade inflation.
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It says:
Average High School Rank Percentile: 94.3%
Average composite ACT: 30.3
Average composite SAT: 1385
I'm sorry, please explain to me how that correlates to your undergraduate course test averages being 95% on average and that being a C+/B-.
Also, that's a pretty good school with a good reputation. You'll be able to attend any medical school you want with great grades/scores/ECs out of there. And you are affiliated with one of the better state med schools in the country.
You sound like a new freshman with zero perspective (or ability to read statistics).
I think there is a misunderstanding, I never said course tests averaged 95%. I said that a school with people who are in the top 5% of test takers (SAT and ACT wise) should not be curving to a class average of C+. Yale does it right by implementing grade inflation so their students can remain competitive for med school or whatever they want to go into after undergrad.
I'm glad you think the school is good because the reputation hasn't spread far from home or even at home. I had a relative in charge of hiring at a local science company who was pretty much throwing away resumes from applicants from our science program because she had no idea that the school had become this competitive.
I also had an adcom in an interview dismiss it as coming from "nowhere". 🙄
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Fair enough. I still think your original post was pretty poorly written ("My undergrad had average test scores in the 95% and curved to a C+ in science courses").
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One of my friends from undergrad had an adcom member ask him why a smart guy like him would go to my undergrad. I went to a top 20 school.
Some people have their heads shoved up their asses. That doesn't make them right. Also, I'm sorry to say, many people from the coasts will always consider the Midwest as flyover country.
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This guy is a troll. Note from earlier post that he says
" College football or no college football.
Do I risk my GPA and future as a doctor to have my college completely paid for or do I put all of my time and effort into my academics as a student. I tried to make this short and sweet, so just give the best advice you can.
Thanks,
Jordan."
Yale does not offer football scholarships, so there is NO WAY he is getting a full ride football scholarship here. Thanks for wasting our time, OP.
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deleted367183
I don't think we disagree, TPY. I am replying not to argue with you, but just to clarify some of the other non-true stuff in the thread. Reading your reply I found that I was unconsciously assuming that OP would do a non-science major (because what with football and all). So let's explore that for a sec.
Though I would obviously recommend going to Yale if the financial aid package is good enough, here's what I wouldn't recommend: playing varsity sports AND doing a science major. That probably could eviscerate even a smart and capable person. I am sure there are exceptions. I wouldn't want to count on being an exception.
OP, let's say that you are "average for Yale," which means driven and not dumb but certainly not a huge intellectual or passionate about any one academic discipline. (OP, if you are saying, "this person must be a real a-hole--isn't everyone at Yale super-smart? I'll be the outlier!", just wait for orientation.) Let's say you take prerequisites only, get As and Bs, and maybe one (ouch) C or D during a bad stretch. For your major you choose one of the many majors in which you have a genuine interest, and whose work you find exciting, but where grading is, let's say, not exactly like physics or engineering or molecular biophysics & biochemistry. I don't want to dis any given non-science major, but let's say anthropology.
Now. Here's where perhaps my experience at a "peer institution" differs from TPY's. I have good friends (not me--look at my profile--I'm nontrad) who did as described above and got into mid-tier MD and DO with no problems. BUT they were not necessarily good candidates for summer research funding, OR (horrors) they were genuinely interested in medicine, but not interested in laboratory research. (Genuine interest in medicine as evinced by their now being 35-year-old attendings, unlike many on this thread. ;-) There are a ton of earmarked monies outside the lab--TPY is correct in that--but not everyone is going to fit into the earmark, or want to. (Yale-China is a really good example, but, I mean, I have plenty of friends who are now successful 30something adults who have no facility for languages and no great curiosity about other cultures. Maybe that's OP.) Also, again speaking from experience, if you're waiting between the close of the dining halls and the start of your summer funding July 1st, it's a heck of a lot easier if Mom and Dad are in a position to say, "here, let me transfer you some money, or let me fly you home," etc..
All I'm saying, Jordan, is have a frank talk with your parents about everything BUT tuition, room, and board. Because it's the "everything but" that is often forgotten at your stage of the decision-making process.
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deleted367183
It's known in the business as "preferential packaging," hippocratic57. If OP is the the beneficiary of a really nice financial aid offer, and if he also happens to play football, then that's a great opportunity for him.
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this is true. regardless, pretty sure OP is still a troll
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Idk, maybe. I'm assuming this is him:
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/152864/jordan-frazier
Yale isn't on that school list, fwiw.
The premeds on here are ridiculous. Prestige matters a lot (did not go to prestigious school)
For gods sake, go to Yale. Just in case you decide not to go to medical school, your opportunities will be much much greater than anybody who went to a regular joe state school. You will be offerred internships at places just because of your name more so than other people at state schools.
Certain prestigious medical schools only take on people from prestigious undergrads (for the most part) - FACT
Coming from a prestigious medical school DOES considerably help in landing residency, and in particular help in landing a prestigious residency (not guaranteed, but it helps a lot) - FACT
It is considerably harder coming from a state school and landing a "prestigious" residency spot - i know because i came from state school, in a "prestigious" program now and had to have a lot better everything compared to my colleagues who came from top 10 programs.
Coming from a prestigious residency helps in landing a better job whether academia or private practice - FACT
the people who eat this "prestige doesn't matter" stuff are premeds who dont know anything. In real world, even medical world, it will help as long as you keep up the prestige. For example, if you go to Yale, then Yale Medical school, then another ivy for residency then all good. If you go to Yale, go to state school for med school, and then state school for residency, well its not as good for your future options. But going to the ivy undergrad helps (doesnt guarantee), but helps you stay in the top schools. Believe me or find out the hard way.
For gods sake, go to Yale. Just in case you decide not to go to medical school, your opportunities will be much much greater than anybody who went to a regular joe state school. You will be offerred internships at places just because of your name more so than other people at state schools.
Certain prestigious medical schools only take on people from prestigious undergrads (for the most part) - FACT
Coming from a prestigious medical school DOES considerably help in landing residency, and in particular help in landing a prestigious residency (not guaranteed, but it helps a lot) - FACT
It is considerably harder coming from a state school and landing a "prestigious" residency spot - i know because i came from state school, in a "prestigious" program now and had to have a lot better everything compared to my colleagues who came from top 10 programs.
Coming from a prestigious residency helps in landing a better job whether academia or private practice - FACT
the people who eat this "prestige doesn't matter" stuff are premeds who dont know anything. In real world, even medical world, it will help as long as you keep up the prestige. For example, if you go to Yale, then Yale Medical school, then another ivy for residency then all good. If you go to Yale, go to state school for med school, and then state school for residency, well its not as good for your future options. But going to the ivy undergrad helps (doesnt guarantee), but helps you stay in the top schools. Believe me or find out the hard way.
Congrats on your acceptance to Yale. As a freshman at an ivy, I would strongly advise you to go to an easier school (or a bs/md program) if you doubt your intelligence in the sciences and are certain that you want to be a doctor. I took many of my pre req classes through my school's dual enrollment program at a state school. I had As in all of them. I'm currently in the Wharton school of business, however I wanted to give pre med a shot and decided to take an intro bio class in the college. I'm scoring average in many of my quizes and midterms which means I'll probably land up with a B- in intro bio this semester. The average GPA of Penn student who was accepted to med school this year was a 3.7 and a 35 Mcat. Mind you, many Penn undergrads take a gap year before entering medical school.
If you have the slightest doubt of being a doctor, then I would go with yale. You will have amazing opportunities and the possibility of receiving a 130k job out of undergrad if you decide to do investment banking. If you're sure that you want to be a doctor but aren't the brightest in the sciences, have no regrets and do a BS/MD program or go to a state school or a top 30 private. Don't go to an ivy if you want to be doctor, it's way to much stress. Many pre meds here would extremely grateful if they got into their state medical school back at home.
Also, no school (including Yale) is worth 160k of debt. I would personally take a maximum of 50k over four years if absolutely necessary.
If you have the slightest doubt of being a doctor, then I would go with yale. You will have amazing opportunities and the possibility of receiving a 130k job out of undergrad if you decide to do investment banking. If you're sure that you want to be a doctor but aren't the brightest in the sciences, have no regrets and do a BS/MD program or go to a state school or a top 30 private. Don't go to an ivy if you want to be doctor, it's way to much stress. Many pre meds here would extremely grateful if they got into their state medical school back at home.
Also, no school (including Yale) is worth 160k of debt. I would personally take a maximum of 50k over four years if absolutely necessary.
IMO, without knowing more about the OP, I feel like the probability of him...
1. Getting into medical school as a yalie (very likely)
2. Choosing a different career (likely)
3. Having an amazing life experience (quite certain)
makes attending Yale the safest and most obvious choice. It's hard to argue with that.
Of course, finances are a huge concern but a lot has already been said on both sides of the issue: Loans are bad, but Yale financial aid is truly outstanding, comparatively speaking.
As for the OP's first question, there are resources online to tell you the GPA you need to attain in order to get in to mid tier MD and DO schools. If this is the OP's goal, I think it can certainly happen coming from Yale, all things considered. If you like the school, go.
1. Getting into medical school as a yalie (very likely)
2. Choosing a different career (likely)
3. Having an amazing life experience (quite certain)
makes attending Yale the safest and most obvious choice. It's hard to argue with that.
Of course, finances are a huge concern but a lot has already been said on both sides of the issue: Loans are bad, but Yale financial aid is truly outstanding, comparatively speaking.
As for the OP's first question, there are resources online to tell you the GPA you need to attain in order to get in to mid tier MD and DO schools. If this is the OP's goal, I think it can certainly happen coming from Yale, all things considered. If you like the school, go.
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Can I just say that everyone misinterprets the issue of undergrad prestige?
There's a difference between "it matters" and "it limits you." Yes, top undergrads are overrepresented at top med schools. Yes, this is likely in large part a result of the caliber of student that attends those undergrads. Yes, it is also possible that undergrad name/prestige alone confers some advantage upon those applicants.
However, it is extremely unlikely that going to a non-prestigious undergrad limits you in comparison to applicants from top schools.
My undergrad is nowhere near prestigious, I'm talking triple digit USNews ranking, and we REGULARLY send applicants to top 10, even top 5 schools. Because the student caliber here is low, most of our applicants are not very competitive, but those students who are highly intelligent, driven, and informed here make the most of their opportunities and end up at amazing schools. A friend of mine graduated last year and was accepted to two Top 5 med schools, attending one on a full tuition scholarship. We should all pity her for being "held back" by her undergrad's name. 🙄
Everyone just chill.
There's a difference between "it matters" and "it limits you." Yes, top undergrads are overrepresented at top med schools. Yes, this is likely in large part a result of the caliber of student that attends those undergrads. Yes, it is also possible that undergrad name/prestige alone confers some advantage upon those applicants.
However, it is extremely unlikely that going to a non-prestigious undergrad limits you in comparison to applicants from top schools.
My undergrad is nowhere near prestigious, I'm talking triple digit USNews ranking, and we REGULARLY send applicants to top 10, even top 5 schools. Because the student caliber here is low, most of our applicants are not very competitive, but those students who are highly intelligent, driven, and informed here make the most of their opportunities and end up at amazing schools. A friend of mine graduated last year and was accepted to two Top 5 med schools, attending one on a full tuition scholarship. We should all pity her for being "held back" by her undergrad's name. 🙄
Everyone just chill.
I don't think the name of my school held me back. It didn't help either.
I am doing fine and have been accepted (yay!) but if I had to do it all over again.....
My issue with the school isn't the name, I just had an issue with their grade deflation policy, especially considering our student body was just as competitive as an ivy. Yale looked out for their students by implementing grade inflation and my undergrad had a grade deflationary policy for their science courses.
There are many people who only got a 30 on their MCAT yet got into a competitive med school because they went to an Ivy undergrad. People with the same stats as me yet from an Ivy undergrad are getting interviews at much more competitive schools. Ivy helps.
As I've said before, I'm just bitter because I have friends who turned down an ivy to go to my state school and just got royally screwed with deflationary grading policies combined with a competitive student body.
Now they are in the job market with a "no name" degree. Either a grade inflating Ivy or better yet a non-competitive "no name" school would have been better choices.
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S
Served
GPA comes first before anything else.
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A 3.9+ GPA and a 99th percentile MCAT will make you competitive anywhere in the nation, regardless of your institution.
Completely agree. I just want to dispel the myth that it is always easier to get a 3.9+ at a state school than an ivy.
Just because a school isn't ranked high on US world news doesn't mean it will be easy or that you'll have much less competition than you would at an ivy.
That said, I am finishing up the last of my pre-reqs at a triple digit ranked state school that lets anyone be a science major. I wish these grades counted ( I only applied with my grades from my undergrad school) because even my half assed effort is landing me around 109% in every class ( all science and all supposedly difficult).
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I've always stuck by the, "You can't judge a school's difficulty, you can only judge its professors' difficulties."
Some schools will have more difficult professors, making it generally a more difficult institution. I know some top-notch small LAC that have absolutely walk-in-the-park professors, and I also know some state schools with lol-you-think-you're-getting-an-A? professors. There are both grade-inflating (more professors that are easy) and grade-deflating (more professors that are difficult) at both top tier and low tier qualifying institutions.
With the advent of websites like RMP, it's becoming increasingly easier to avoid these types of professors and take the 'easy way out.' AdComs have no way to interpret this since professors aren't reported, so they can only go by institution. You could go to Princeton (known for grade-deflation), only pick the easiest prereq professors out there, get all As, and then study/kill the MCAT and look like a superapplicant. Or you could go to Yale (known for grade-inflation), pick the hardest professors out of choice or luck, get your GPA destroyed, do well on the MCAT, but still be out of competition for MD schools.
It's not as easy as it sounds, but this can be done anywhere. The moral of the story is - go where you want, where will make you happy, and where will help you succeed.
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Going to an Ivy will open doors for you in the future that you can't really appreciate now. Besides, what if you end up not wanting to go into medicine? The Yale name matters a lot more in other fields. The only reason you should turn down Yale is if football is more important to you and you're getting recruited from schools with much better programs. Don't sell yourself short, and don't let bitter people on SDN change your mind if Yale is what you really want.
I dont think thats the point. Thats one friend. Things like that happen regularly to people from prestigious institutions and they likely didn't have to put in AS MUCH effort (not saying they dont put in effort, but its a different level of effort coming from a low tier school).
At my own institution where I work the medical school is prestigious. I got involved somewhat through one of the physicians here regarding medical school admission committees and see it with my own eyes. Applicants from top schools get the benefit of the doubt.
After you achieve a GPA of 3.6-3.7, it doesn't matter that much for an applicant, especially from top schools, other things start to matter. Ive seen kids from Ivy leagues with 3.2 GPAs, 30 MCAT and decent ECs get interview offer over the 3.7 GPA, 34 MCAT kid from the no name school. Its not the same, at least at my institution.
Now does that mean going to "lower tier" school will limit you, no because you can try to get opportunities, etc.. just like you mentioned. But there not just a small, a significant advantage of going to a top undergrad institution. And now when I mean top, I mean Yales, Harvards, Stanfords and Cornells of the world. I believed the same crap when i started out too, and unfortunately its not true in the real world. There is an advantage of going to a prestigious school. Having said that there is not significant disadvantage of not going, which is why the medical school admission system is a lot more fair than other fields.
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If medical school is the goal, and you would love to go to Yale, then do it.
I didn't feel 'right' at the top schools I interviewed at for UG, so I chose to stay closer to my friends and family. But go where your heart leads you. Neither way will limit you, though Yale may benefit you slightly, but it won't cover up a poor MCAT/GPA like some people allude to.
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I really wasn't talking about anyone in particular.
On what are you basing this conclusion about effort? I could argue she had to put in very little effort compared to her Ivy undergrad peers, since she was competing with students far below her caliber at my school in order to stand out to professors, get good grades, get good opportunities, etc...
I have nothing against students at top undergrads. They likely earned their attendance there and that is something to be admired, but it saddens me to know that admissions at your school operate in that manner. It is not the way I would judge applicants, but my opinion is irrelevant.
To the point, the only assertion I am making with the example(s) I provided is that one's undergrad reputation will not be a limiting factor. I can't claim to know to what extent coming from a top undergrad will help; maybe a lot, maybe a little, and more likely than not it depends on the school(s) applied to. I'm not saying it's not worth attending a top school to gain this advantage. All I'm saying is that you don't create some artificial ceiling for yourself attending a lame school. Will you have to work harder to stand out as an applicant coming from a lame school? I think that is very debatable, for the reasons I stated above and because effort is relative, an applicant determined/gifted enough to be competitive for top med schools will likely have an easier time than expected no matter where they go for undergrad, etc...
gettheleadout;13267347 To the point said:
This is only true of applications to medical school and thats because the system in general appreciate students from all schools and is more fair than other fields. Most other fields, yes there is an artificial ceiling.
Its all fine and dandy if you do indeed apply to medical school, but what if you don't? What if you don't want to do medicine anymore? There are kids getting advice here on SDN on what undergrad to go to, and all too many times there are people without any real experience saying "it doesnt matter that much" and this is terrible advice.
If a student gets into a top school like Yale, they should not reject it for state school U unless there is a very damn good reason, and even they should think twice about rejecting it. So what if they get into debt? There are History majors from places like Yale and Penn getting internships at McKinsey. No way stuff like that happens at regular State U. Yes you may go into debt, but you'll likely have the means to actually pay it off. If you do a history major at normal state U, even if you have a fraction of the debt, you probably wont have any job or means to pay that off.
People like me who went to state school basically got saved by going into medicine because i literally had very few GOOD employment opportunities with my regular joe science degree. The only way I would be able to get more opportunities coming out of undergrad would be to do graduate school in something needed or get a PhD or something at a top school. Yes there are exceptions of people who go to state school U and create opportunities for themselves, but this is the exceptions. Its not an exception if you go to an ivy league. But unfortunately SDN likes to keep spitting out the same nonsense to high school students and unfortunately some may follow in such terrible advice.
I'm going to have to agree with todds. Even for jobs during your gap year the difference really comes out. At my job, they only hire people under two circumstances.
1) You already know someone in the company that can refer you - 85% of new entry level hires get in this way. As a result the majority of people all knew each other and come from the same non-competitive triple digit ranked school.
2) You went to a "fancy" undergrad like Harvard. Out of almost 40 people only two of us were non-referral hires. The other one was an ivy graduate. I lucked out and a random alumni of my undergrad saw my resume and talked my manager into hiring me because they knew how difficult our school was.
Point is, school reputation opens doors. You can't top an Ivy in that area. This means you can have a pick of most jobs. This doesn't mean it is out of reach for an average state schooler but you better know someone to get that same job. Having an Ivy on your resume is like having an "in" at every company in the country.
This is important to consider since at both ivys and state schools the majority of pre-meds end up being weeded out and don't end up going into medicine.
1) You already know someone in the company that can refer you - 85% of new entry level hires get in this way. As a result the majority of people all knew each other and come from the same non-competitive triple digit ranked school.
2) You went to a "fancy" undergrad like Harvard. Out of almost 40 people only two of us were non-referral hires. The other one was an ivy graduate. I lucked out and a random alumni of my undergrad saw my resume and talked my manager into hiring me because they knew how difficult our school was.
Point is, school reputation opens doors. You can't top an Ivy in that area. This means you can have a pick of most jobs. This doesn't mean it is out of reach for an average state schooler but you better know someone to get that same job. Having an Ivy on your resume is like having an "in" at every company in the country.
This is important to consider since at both ivys and state schools the majority of pre-meds end up being weeded out and don't end up going into medicine.
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Med school admissions is one of the few times in life that you are actually judged based on merits alone. In the real world, connections tend to be far more important.
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Don't. Ignore all these people on here. Yes sometimes they can be helpful, but you yourself know your potential. Moreover, although it is strenuous and difficult, being a varsity athlete is beneficial for you. I swam four years at a D1 school in undergrad. The athletic department provides athletes with the most tools to succeed with their difficult schedules - you are granted first access to classes, you are given free private tutoring upon request, etc. On top of that, most of the top Ivy schools may be hard to get into, but have extremely lenient grading scales. Here's my last thought that helped me when I applied - study something that you love as an undergrad, don't feel the need to study as a biology or chemistry major. Just make sure you take your premed reqs (Bio, Chem, Orgo, Calc, Physics, English...you can add other topics that interest you too like Cell Bio, Genetics, Bioinformatics etc). I was a math major in college and never regretted it. Medical schools are currently looking for diverse students, so there are significant numbers of non-bio and chemistry majors entering medical school. Send me a PM if you need any more advice or help.
Finally! A pre-med athlete who knows what he's talking about. Listen to this guy please. 👍
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Haha thanks 😀 There are actually a surprising amount of college athletes here, you just need to look for them. It disgusts me to see people telling this poor kid to turn down an opportunity to get an education from Yale because his GPA may be bad. They don't know him, or the athletic department. The last thing a school like Yale wants is for their athletes to fail out.
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I agree with all that. I'm speaking strictly with regard to pursuing medicine. And for the record, I would go to Yale in OP's position, unless its prohibitively expensive in some way. The fact that I'm not at a prestigious school precludes me whatever advantage it confers, and of course I would love to have that. That, however, is my own fault for not meriting admission at a better school.
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I think we need to differentiate between HYP and a school such as Tufts (another thread from the past).
Everyone in the country will recognize the difficulty of HYP. You're limited to the east coast for Tufts and the benefit will not be anywhere near as large as with HYP even though the caliber of students is not all that different from HYP.
If I was the OP, I would go to Yale as well. But if it was a decision between Tufts and a triple digit ranked school with a full scholarship, I would have to think about it.
Everyone in the country will recognize the difficulty of HYP. You're limited to the east coast for Tufts and the benefit will not be anywhere near as large as with HYP even though the caliber of students is not all that different from HYP.
If I was the OP, I would go to Yale as well. But if it was a decision between Tufts and a triple digit ranked school with a full scholarship, I would have to think about it.
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The OP needs to change his name... One should never use one's own name as a forum name and it is worse to use the name of a real HS kid who plays football if that isn't your name.
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I just made a post about this in another thread, as someone told me the same thing. I've always used my name for what I write on the Internet, and only post things I wouldn't care about being traced back to me.
Why do you say one should never use their name?
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Let's look at the terms of service here:
Forums Terms of Service & Website Online Service Agreement
Lets get to the point! Heres what you need to know when using the SDN Forums:
Protect anonymity. Remember, the SDN Forums are followed by students, doctors, schools and professional organizations. Please keep your identity protected dont post or use your real name on the forums. Additionally, members are not permitted to solicit personally identifiable information from other members or disclose another members identity without their written permission.
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Fair enough. But I still fail to see the rationale behind mandating such a rule. The two main arguments I have heard are regarding stalking and reputation, and those are risks I am either not worried about or willing to take.
Is that rule, specifically the part saying "Please keep your identity protected – don't post or use your real name on the forums" a suggestion or a bannable offense? Because the latter seems somewhat silly to me.
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I hope you feel the same way 4 years from now when you are making your applications because what you post online is there forever. And what you post about classmates could come back to bite you, too, so you might want to be careful about labeling some people as druggies or whatever.
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Yes anonymity is important... but the day you retire LizzyM, you should finally post here where you used to work. 😀
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