Underrepresented Minorities Misconceptions

[NotSur]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[chman]

Oh, I had no idea what you meant by "Cycle Cell." I just realized that you're misspelling "Sickle Cell."

Here's a list of common genetic disorders and the groups they pertain to:

http://www.ucsfhealth.org/adult/medical_services/preg/prenatal/conditions/other/signs.html

And here's an article on AMD:
http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/06_16_98/story01.htm

Even for diseases that affect whites too, there may be reasons for why they are more common in blacks that aren't necessarily sociological:
http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20020507hgene0507p3.asp

Now I'm just googling stuff. There's so much stuff we still don't know. You can google around if you're really interested. Also, I wouldn't downplay the importance of having minority physicians involved in public health measures.

Interesting.

I'm not downplaying it, I think it is important. However, I think it is false notion that only minorities would care about these diseases.

 

[NotSur]

.

 

[chman]

I agree that there are non-minority doctors who care (ie. I've volunteered for years in an inner-city hospital where I've seen amazing docs of all backgrounds who do primary care. And few things make me happier than listening to my Japanese PI speak perfect Spanish). But, statistically speaking, minorities care more. So, if medical schools want to increase research on these issues, increasing their production of minority doctors is a valid way to go about doing this. This doesn't mean that they should stop doing whatever else they're doing to inspire all kinds of people to work with the underserved. And it doesn't change the fact that the fundamental problem isn't a medical one but a socioeconomic one. Women no longer need AA to get into medical school. A lot of this has to do with the fact that our social and economic structures changed to make it possible for women to draw on their family's financial resources in the same way that their brothers would have. We are not at a point of full gender equality but we have certainly come very far. This kind of radical economic restructuring has yet to occur on a racial level.

As it is, as shown by the funding disparities I linked you to earlier, there aren't enough doctors focusing on minority issues, minority or not. Have you looked at the school selector spreadsheet? There are so many schools that only have 3 Black people or 5 Hispanic people per class. URM admissions really don't affect everyone else's chances that much and URM doctors are desperately needed. I feel that a lot of people complain about AA until they get to med school and notice, "Hey, there are hardly any URM's here."

Also, on a completely unrelated note, referring back to the original purpose of this thread, I do think that some schools have used the looser AAMC definition of URM to cover a more comprehensive idea of diversity. It instantly brought to mind Stanford. On their "diversity essay," they mentioned sexual orientation as one of the things that applicants could discuss.

Well that is kind of my point. We have a system in place that is a joke. First, it is not a great example of equality, which I think is what we are striving for. Next, it just does not work (or works very little).

I agree with you that there is no doubt that this is a socioeconomic problem that has been a part of this country since the emancipation proclamation.

I will use a similar analogy to what I used earlier. There is no sense in AA once people are already at the college level. By that time, the people from the toughest neighborhoods have already been lost. It is like giving people assistance in buying prescriptions once they no longer need it. They needed the prescription assistance back when they could not afford their medication. So in other words, minorities need help when they are growing up to avoid falling in with the wrong crowd, or having to skip school to take care of their family etc. Those people never make it. The people who do make it are A) Very hard working and overcame extreme adversity, or B) Are simply a minority from a normal family.

Whether we like it or not, option B) is normally what happens. We need to make sure that we make option A a little more plausible. That is what I am saying.

Don't get me wrong, I want there to be a level playing field. Will it ever be completely level? Probably not in our lifetime, and probably never. Even for people of similar backgrounds there are variables that come in to play that makes things "unfair." But there are some fairly easy solutions that seem to be ignored.

 

[NotSur]

.

 

[Dr Lyss]

Here is where we differ. We need more minority docs. The point of AA isn't only to reward people who overcame adversity. It's to get more practicing URM physicians, regardless of what a URM's socioeconomic background, ie. a Black doc who grew up middle-class is still more likely to research sickle cell anemia than a non-Black doc. For me, this goal is enough to justify giving URM's a slight boost in the admissions process. (Make no mistake, it is a slight boost. People are not getting if they're not qualified and many med schools still lack significant minority populations.) For you, this goal is not enough. This is our fundamental disagreement. I think we've reached a point where we're not bringing new information to the discussion. Agree? At any rate, I've appreciated the opportunity to discuss AA civilly with you. I hope you feel the same way. Enjoy your Sunday!

nicely put

 

[chman]

Here is where we differ. We need more minority docs. The point of AA isn't only to reward people who overcame adversity. It's to get more practicing URM physicians, regardless of what a URM's socioeconomic background, ie. a Black doc who grew up middle-class is still more likely to research sickle cell anemia than a non-Black doc. For me, this goal is enough to justify giving URM's a slight boost in the admissions process. (Make no mistake, it is a slight boost. People are not getting if they're not qualified and many med schools still lack significant minority populations.) For you, this goal is not enough. This is our fundamental disagreement. I think we've reached a point where we're not bringing new information to the discussion. Agree? At any rate, I've appreciated the opportunity to discuss AA civilly with you. I hope you feel the same way. Enjoy your Sunday!

Yes, agreed. I honestly believe that many of the race problems in this country could be solved if people would have more honest discussions.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yes, and in my post I asked for you to name some public health issues that are specific to minorities besides cycle cell. Did I not?

if you are seriously asking this question you are truly ignorant. i hope for your sake it was just to see if the poster was actually knowledgeable

t is not a great example of equality, which I think is what we are striving for

equality for whom? premeds? in which case, no, i think you're wrong. no one cares about equality for premeds. (even assuming there is a great injustice going on to start with)

 

[chman]

if you are seriously asking this question you are truly ignorant.

You don't know me dude.

EDIT: I realize that people's genetics dictate their overall health. I also realize that some minority groups have higher rates of obesity, diabetes etc. but those are not specific to minorities. I honestly could not name any others and was asking notsure to enlighten me.

As for you other comment; I was commenting in terms of socioeconomic status.

"Hello, my name is bleargh and I write one sentence sarcastic comments on SDN and rarely contribute constructively or give genuine advice."

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You don't know me dude.

obviously. but i build a composite out of your posts. and right now the picture is - young kid who isn't 100% in tune with the healthcare world (not that i am in any way either)

 

[chman]

obviously. but i build a composite out of your posts. and right now the picture is - young kid who isn't 100% in tune with the healthcare world (not that i am in any way either)

Wrong. Unless by kid you mean a 23 year old, in which case that is true. I also wrote a little edit you may not have seen. I think I am fairly aware of the state of our health care system, although not an expert by any means. If you have some constructive advice to give me I would be happy to hear you out. Not so much with the name calling though.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Wrong. Unless by kid you mean a 23 year old, in which case that is true. I also wrote a little edit you may not have seen. I think I am fairly aware of the state of our health care system, although not an expert by any means. If you have some constructive advice to give me I would be happy to hear you out. Not so much with the name calling though.

i didn't call you names. if you take offense to me calling you ignorant, well, i'm sorry, but it doesn't make it less true - you're ignorant to the health disparities and issues that face various minority groups. without going into specifics (and yes, there are many specifics) i find it somewhat interesting you're waving off things like obesity and diabetes as well. as a side note that i personally find quite interesting as a relatively recent immigrant (and because i happened to pursue this line of research for a bit) - generally speaking, the more accustomed and "acculturated" an immigrant becomes to mainstream american culture, their cardiovascular (and other) disease risk increases and actually exceeds that of caucasians. this can also be indirectly, but strongly be correlated to an individual's language proficiency/preferences.

as to your jab about my sarcasm, to paraphrase the great mr. randy moss, i comment when i want to comment.

 

[BBender716]

i didn't call you names. if you take offense to me calling you ignorant, well, i'm sorry, but it doesn't make it less true - you're ignorant to the health disparities and issues that face various minority groups. without going into specifics (and yes, there are many specifics) i find it somewhat interesting you're waving off things like obesity and diabetes as well. as a side note that i personally find quite interesting as a relatively recent immigrant (and because i happened to pursue this line of research for a bit) - generally speaking, the more accustomed and "acculturated" an immigrant becomes to mainstream american culture, their cardiovascular (and other) disease risk increases and actually exceeds that of caucasians. this can also be indirectly, but strongly be correlated to an individual's language proficiency/preferences.

as to your jab about my sarcasm, to paraphrase the great mr. randy moss, i comment when i want to comment.

As the other great Randy, Mr. Randy Marsh, said "we have made the economy very angry!"

 

[RogueUnicorn]

As the other great Randy, Mr. Randy Marsh, said "we have made the economy very angry!"

it's very important to remember he who suffered most for us. Barack Obama.

 

[chman]

i didn't call you names. if you take offense to me calling you ignorant, well, i'm sorry, but it doesn't make it less true - you're ignorant to the health disparities and issues that face various minority groups. without going into specifics (and yes, there are many specifics) i find it somewhat interesting you're waving off things like obesity and diabetes as well. as a side note that i personally find quite interesting as a relatively recent immigrant (and because i happened to pursue this line of research for a bit) - generally speaking, the more accustomed and "acculturated" an immigrant becomes to mainstream american culture, their cardiovascular (and other) disease risk increases and actually exceeds that of caucasians. this can also be indirectly, but strongly be correlated to an individual's language proficiency/preferences.

as to your jab about my sarcasm, to paraphrase the great mr. randy moss, i comment when i want to comment.

Whether you want to admit it or not, calling someone ignorant is name calling.

Next, I am not saying that diabetes and obesity are not serious health issues, because they obviously are. In fact, obesity is now the #1 public health issue. But that was exactly my point. My point, in context, was that these issues do not just affect minorities. That's all. I was just curious as to what specific health issues affect minorities and nobody else, such as Cycle Cell. I think I would be more ignorant for not wanting to learn that.

I would venture to say that immigrants have a higher heart disease risk after moving here because Americans, in general, eat like crap. There is fast food everywhere, and it is cheap. Now your point could be true as well. So relax, I am not saying there are not public health issues that affect the minority community. All I am saying is that there are relatively few that do not affect everyone, such as obesity and diabetes. But like I said to NotSure, if there are some prevalent specific diseases that I am not aware of please enlighten me, and I am not being sarcastic either, I would really like to know.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Whether you want to admit it or not, calling someone ignorant is name calling.

Next, I am not saying that diabetes and obesity are not serious health issues, because they obviously are. In fact, obesity is now the #1 public health issue. But that was exactly my point. My point, in context, was that these issues do not just affect minorities. That's all. I was just curious as to what specific health issues affect minorities and nobody else, such as Cycle Cell. I think I would be more ignorant for not wanting to learn that.

I would venture to say that immigrants have a higher heart disease risk after moving here because Americans, in general, eat like crap. There is fast food everywhere, and it is cheap. Now your point could be true as well. So relax, I am not saying there are not public health issues that affect the minority community. All I am saying is that there are relatively few that do not affect everyone, such as obesity and diabetes. But like I said to NotSure, if there are some prevalent specific diseases that I am not aware of please enlighten me, and I am not being sarcastic either, I would really like to know.

white people get SICKLE cell as well. i can personally not think of any disease that affects ONLY minorities other than MAYBE vitiligo, but i know very little of that so i'm admittedly talking out of my a** here. why must it ONLY affect minorities to be an issue for minority? you were initially talking about public health issues, in which percentage point differences in prevalence is the name of the game.

 

[BBender716]

it's very important to remember he who suffered most for us. Barack Obama.

Then he stole a bunch of stuff with John McCain! lol

 

[JoyceMD]

It is been proven that blacks and hispanics go back to their communities to serve ( not 100% but majority do ) and great number specialize in primary care. These are mostly underserved communities that need healthcare access and physicians. I don't see Whites and Asians flooding to these communities to work. So medical schools will continue the trend of recruiting minorities to serve their communities.

Those who think this process is unfair or racist grossly misunderstand the role and mission of medical schools. Race plays a big role when comes to medical treatments received by blacks(and hispanics too). It ranges from inadequate treatment of illness to gross negligence mostly due to cultural differences or ignorance.
http://journals.lww.com/lww-medical...fluence_of_Black_Race_on_Treatment_and.8.aspx

Medical schools have a role in correcting this and one way they do this is by bringing in those from the said communities.


Finally, if schools do away with URM tomorrow, one's chance of getting in only improve by 1 to 3%. So basically, if you can't get in now, you still won't get in if it's done away with.

Execellent Points!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Then he stole a bunch of stuff with John McCain! lol

but thank god he changed his mind in the end to take the burden of the presidency.

 

[chman]

white people get SICKLE cell as well. i can personally not think of any disease that affects ONLY minorities other than MAYBE vitiligo, but i know very little of that so i'm admittedly talking out of my a** here. why must it ONLY affect minorities to be an issue for minority? you were initially talking about public health issues, in which percentage point differences in prevalence is the name of the game.

Because if it affects everyone, then it is not just an issue for minorities. That was my original point. It does not mean that I am against fighting whatever issue it is in the minority community. My point was/is that if the issue is researched it will help everyone. That's all man, plain and simple.

Anyways, I am done with this. You can think whatever you want of me.

 

[BBender716]

but thank god he changed his mind in the end to take the burden of the presidency.

lol true that. I still wish I had the Margaritaville Machine episode on my ipod so whenever anyone asks me how the sub-prime mortgage crisis happened, I could whip it out and show them. Crazy as it is, it's really a funny but practical way of explaining it... besides maybe the part behind the government's double-doors, lol

 

[shiftingmirage]

(Make no mistake, it is a slight boost. People are not getting if they're not qualified and many med schools still lack significant minority populations.)

The problem with AA is that, as you stated, it doesn't fix the problem. It's not just leveling the playing field of those who apply, we need to take strides to increase the number of URMs applying. Of the handful of individuals that I know who applied and were accepted to med school, they all came from middle class families. Most, probably all, would have made the journey without AA. In some ways it has made the problem worse because it is used as an excuse. We know lower income areas have the worst schools, in part, because less property tax= less $ for the schools. Lower income families tend to work more hours/ overnight shifts to make ends meat, so parents have less time to parent. Bad schools have little to no after school activities, so when schools is over, parents are at work, kids tend to be mischievous. We also know that minorities comprise a disproportionate amount of lower income families. With AA, we say it's okay to screw this kids over early on, cause it'll be made up later, however it rarely is. We need to fix school funding, and hold schools accountable. Fix the underlying problem, a band-aid will not treat a fractured femur.

I would be the first to say that the race of my physician doesn't matter, and that as long as the individual is qualified, it shouldn't. As a woman, I will also say I don't see myself using the services of a male OB/GYN. While a male can just as easily learn the symptoms, diseases, etc., in my mind a female doc in more knowledgeable as she has experienced the joys of womenhood first hand. It's a comfort thing. While some may find this logic flawed, or absent entirely, it makes since in my head. Hence, if black, white, or green people want a doc of their own race, there's nothing wrong with that. It's a comfort thing.

 

[Dr Lyss]

FYI, sickle cell anemia doesn't just occur in minorities... just (greatly) disproportionately so in African Americans.


There is no such thing as a disease that occurs in only one ethnic group, only great disparities in the frequency within groups. So, yes, every ethnic group is effected by cancer... but why do Black men have such an increased risk of dying from prostate cancer compared to other groups? Why do women have such a higher death rate from heart attacks compared to men? Why are minority groups more likely to die from the same illnesses that effect Caucasians? THAT is what they mean by health issues that effect minorities where we desperately need more minority physicians (or physicians in general) to address these issues.

 

[oojones]

sorry- but racism is ANY SPECIAL TREATMENT towards a specific race.

Let's say an applicant is asian...they're still a minority and may have endured some of the "hardships" minorities go through...but guess what? They're no the right type of minority! In fact they are over-represented! So let's make it harder for them to get into med school..even if they came from a poor family. Meanwhile, what if an African-American applies from an upper class family.

We all KNOW that a rich african-american can get in with much lower stats than a very poor asian student...and to me this is very wrong.


Until we start looking BEYOND COLOR we will always be racist...AA is not fixing anything sadly

Naaaah

 

[gettheleadout]

Naaaah

troll

 

[weezynation]

I guess so.. No reason for anyone to do poorly, if you have the passion you can do well, just like the rest.

Did you seriously dig up a thread from over a year ago to start another URM war? This is worse than starting a new URM thread.

 

[Thego2guy]

Noooo!!!

2009 AA thread revived by a troll? We are moving to def-con 1 !!

:troll::troll::troll::troll:

 

[Demon]

So how is this any different than a white man/ woman who is from the inner city/rural/ socioeconomically under-served area. They are just as likely to go back to where they are from. I say this as a white guy who has lived in the inner city most of his life.

Most "minorities" that I am friends with (I am usually the minority in my neighborhood), think that AA is a step back. It definitely was needed, but at this point in time it is doing more harm than good in my opinion. We will never be truly equal until we stop going out of our way to point out that we are different, which is what AA does.

Also, as it was touched on above, another thing that AA does is give ignorant people an excuse to believe that minorities only got to where they are (if in a position of success) because of AA. This is a disservice to all the hard working minorities that busted their hump to get where they are.

Anyways, that is my 2c.

EDIT: Op, I don't really see your point. The link says the same thing in different words as far as I can tell.

The difference lies within how minorities are treated by peers, professors, institutions, and society. We face adversities that are not only economically based, but sociologically. AA is not what causes the "difference".

 

[Copernicium]

Noooo!!!
2009 AA thread revived by a troll? We are moving to def-con 1 !!

 

[Tummytroubles]

This does bother me but honestly medical schools discriminate, that's just how it is. They discriminate against certain races a little but the main discrimination is based on family income and not necessarily on skin. They build certain advantages into the system for high income students. This kind of discrimination just gets attention because URMs are a minority and well off med school applicants are the majority.

There are lots of things that are unfair about the med school process and I don't understand why people are so hung up on this.

 

[sibitrum]

Each medical school decides for itself what its policies are with respect to diversity, including race and ethnicity.

Really?

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/news...rom-LCME-to-Marshall-University/file?nodisp=1

Money quotation:

After reviewing the report of the full survey team, the LCME voted to place the educational program leading to the M.D. degree at the Joan C. Edwards School of Medicine at Marshall University on probation.[...]

1) IS-16: An institution that offers a medical education program must have policies and practices to achieve appropriate diversity among its students, faculty, staff, and other members of its academic community, and must engage in ongoing, systematic, and focused efforts to attract and retain students, faculty, staff, and others from demographically diverse backgrounds.

This is in Huntington, WV, where somewhere around 90% of the local community is white.

 

[deleted382095]

Really?

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/news...rom-LCME-to-Marshall-University/file?nodisp=1

Money quotation:
This is in Huntington, WV, where somewhere around 90% of the local community is white.

It's West Virginia........as a person of color, I'd rather go to a Caribbean Med School than THAT school for..safety reasons..

 

[MDschoolorbust]

NECROOOOOOOOO.

 

[weezynation]

Yes I did, It annoys me that some of the (URM) people I meet, who want to apply to medical school rely on the fact that as URM's, they don't need to work hard on the MCAT. Unfortunately that is true and I don't see how that is fair. First off, it is a shame that they have accepted and are content with the fact that they only capable of getting sub-average MCAT scores...

I'm not going to even address your concerns because they've been brought up a million times. All I have to say is stop generalizing and spend the time you use necro bumping to get accepted to med school. You can be upset all you want; it's not gonna change anything.

 

[LizzyM]

I love how people are always talking about these black applicants from wealthy families. Truth is more like this:

http://robparal.blogspot.com/#!/2012/05/who-are-wealthiest-chicagoans.html