Unethical classroom activity

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bettyxx

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I'm on a psychotherapy degree course. So in class the tutors got us to look at a case study. They made comments hinting that it was about me and I felt belittled. The funny thing is that it didn't describe me except for one similarity. The irony is that, perhaps without them realising, the description/analysis summed up one of my classmates, and my classmate got quite upset and paranoid afterwards.

Anyway, I felt it was very unethical for counselling professionals to make people feel unsafe in this way. It was also very unprofessional to tailor a case study to real people in the class. What are they trying to do, mess with our heads? I'd appreciate opinions on this.

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I will add that it definitely felt like they were targeting me. For example, saying stuff and looking at me. Sarcastic comments related to the fact that I dont have kids etc.
 
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Well, it may have still been a misguided joke attempt. You could always talk to them about it, let them know it made you feel uncomfortable. May clear up some possible misconceptions on both sides.
 
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Agree w/ WisNeuro - talk to the tutors. Share your concerns without making accusations. Stand up for your classmate, but again, state what you observed and don't ascribe intent. Listen to their side. If the tutors can't offer a reasonable resolution, then take it to someone who can (department head, etc.).
 
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Thanks Wisneuro and MamaPhD. I agree with you about talking to them. It's just that after the way that they behaved, I don't really feel like it. I'll see how it is at the next session, and will mention it when I go in for a tutorial.
 
Thanks Wisneuro and MamaPhD. I agree with you about talking to them. It's just that after the way that they behaved, I don't really feel like it. I'll see how it is at the next session, and will mention it when I go in for a tutorial.

I get it. Healthy confrontation is part of the business, however, so consider this an opportunity to practice.
 
"Unsafe"? I get feeling it was rude or embarrassing, even unprofessional. But how was anyone unsafe?
 
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"Unsafe"? I get feeling it was rude or embarrassing, even unprofessional. But how was anyone unsafe?

Psychological safety is a "thing."
 
The funny part is that these people who push the "unsafe" or "trigger" words also happen to be some of the more rude individuals.
 
On the face of it, it doesn't sound very professional. What exactly are the credentials of these tutors? It typically is not a joke if you aren't in on it. If you volunteered to be the case study and played up some of your character traits for a humorous purpose that would be one thing. To have someone in some position of authority do that is another thing altogether.

I also agree that using a current politically charged or overused word such as "unsafe" can serve to weaken or defocus from the point you want to make about why this behavior is inappropriate. I felt insulted, demeaned, ridiculed, or any other word that more accurately reflects your feelings might be better.
 
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Psychological safety is a "thing."

Exactly.
I don't feel safe speaking up for fear they will dismiss what I have to say again. I have never felt safe knowing that one of them is the tutor (the person is too critical). The other tutor is okay but in the last session had almost had a character transplant and was going along with her unprofessional behaviour. Such a shame.
 
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On the face of it, it doesn't sound very professional. What exactly are the credentials of these tutors? It typically is not a joke if you aren't in on it. If you volunteered to be the case study and played up some of your character traits for a humorous purpose that would be one thing. To have someone in some position of authority do that is another thing altogether.

I also agree that using a current politically charged or overused word such as "unsafe" can serve to weaken or defocus from the point you want to make about why this behavior is inappropriate. I felt insulted, demeaned, ridiculed, or any other word that more accurately reflects your feelings might be better.

They're both accredited, but not sure that that stands for much. They both have an MA in counselling. I certainly did not volunteer to be the case study. Okay, I felt demeaned, judged and ridiculed.

It's interesting that I used the word "unsafe" as it's a word that the rude tutor often uses to ask us if we feel "safe" in the group. It's interesting that she asks that as she's the prime reason why students don't feel comfortable/safe. She seems to enjoy picking people apart in her feedback and when she starts, she doesn't stop. I confronted her over it at the start of the course, and I feel that it's dented her ego. That's why I feel she's got it in for me now.
 
Again implies that you have raised a concern before. Have you spoken with them about this already, or a related event in the past?

'Again' implies that in the last session a couple of times when I spoke up, the rude tutor used what I had to say to ridicule me further and dismissed my valid points.
 
I have a feeling this is a dyadic dynamic issue. If it is impeding your learning, speak with the course instructor, or program chair. Maybe they can get some moderation involved to square both sides away.
 
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I have a feeling this is a dyadic dynamic issue. If it is impeding your learning, speak with the course instructor, or program chair. Maybe they can get some moderation involved to square both sides away.
Yeah it sounds like (right or wrong either way) the tutor did something the student didn't like, the student responded in a way the tutor didn't like, and the tutor is again acting in a way the student doesn't like.

Admin can set some ground rules with a little objectivity
 
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Agree with WisNeuro and want to emphasize that learning to work through and resolve interpersonal conflicts is central to being an effective therapist. Hopefully someone in your program can help you resolve it. Keep in mind that sometimes the resolution is that the other person will continue to be critical and push peoples buttons and you might have to learn how to cope with that in a more effective way. I say this because we oftentimes we get a fixed mindset that focuses on the negative things the person does and sees them changing or leaving as the only remedy.
 
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I have a feeling this is a dyadic dynamic issue. If it is impeding your learning, speak with the course instructor, or program chair. Maybe they can get some moderation involved to square both sides away.

Thanks for your advice. It was only in the last session that I felt this more than the past. My therapist said it's good that I didn't react or let it show that it affected me. I wonder if I speak with the tutors if it will show that it got to me, and therefore let them win. By the way, once in feedback after counselling practice she laughed at and mocked the lady she was criticising. I felt embarassed having to watch that.

I have thought about speaking with the director about my concerns, but feel I shouldn't do it until the end of the course because she could easily try to ruin things for me. We finish with these tutors in about a months' time, and next year we have different tutors.
 
Thanks for your advice. It was only in the last session that I felt this more than the past. My therapist said it's good that I didn't react or let it show that it affected me. I wonder if I speak with the tutors if it will show that it got to me, and therefore let them win. By the way, once in feedback after counselling practice she laughed at and mocked the lady she was criticising. I felt embarassed having to watch that.

I have thought about speaking with the director about my concerns, but feel I shouldn't do it until the end of the course because she could easily try to ruin things for me. We finish with these tutors in about a months' time, and next year we have different tutors.
I disagree. If you wait until the end (when ostensibly grades are decided) it could look like sour grapes

My guess is you might be overreacting, but if you aren't I would think a dispassionate and earlier discussion with admin would be the right approach
 
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I'm super unclear. OP thinks it was about them, but there was only one similarity? It was also like another person in the class? How do the faculty know the students' personal issues to be able to do that?
I think more is happening than a derivative case writeup.
 
I disagree. If you wait until the end (when ostensibly grades are decided) it could look like sour grapes

My guess is you might be overreacting, but if you aren't I would think a dispassionate and earlier discussion with admin would be the right approach

Thank you sb247. I will see how they behave in the next session then decide.
 
I'm super unclear. OP thinks it was about them, but there was only one similarity? It was also like another person in the class? How do the faculty know the students' personal issues to be able to do that?
I think more is happening than a derivative case writeup.

Sorry that it's unclear. I don't think it was about me but the one similarity we had was our culture. When they asked if any of us noticed similarities, I said culture connection. The tutor then said, 'this client could be you then, eh?' I said no, in particular because the age range was wrong. Guess what? While we were in groups, they changed the age and one of the tutors laughed while looking at me and said, 'is that more like it?' It was still inaccurate. Anyway, after we had done our psychodynamic/person-centred analysis of the client, one of the tutors said, 'Do you any of you think you're this client?' Then she looked at me and said my name sarcastically. I just said 'no' but I felt like a target. Some of the things that they explained in the analysis, e.g. the oedipal complex, is relevant to me.
Can you see why I felt bullied and demeaned? I don't understand what is going on.

Oh, and they know our personal issues because when we do counselling practice with each other, we have to talk about real issues. That's a good way for them to analyze us I guess. They observe us sometimes. But there is a camera in one of the rooms and we use their videos to film ourselves for the final transcript assignment. So they have access to lots of footage of us. I've only just realised this recently though.
 
Oh, and they know our personal issues because when we do counselling practice with each other, we have to talk about real issues. That's a good way for them to analyze us I guess. They observe us sometimes. But there is a camera in one of the rooms and we use their videos to film ourselves for the final transcript assignment. So they have access to lots of footage of us. I've only just realised this recently though.

They didn't tell you that you were being observed?

It sounds like you're not in the US and different standards may apply, but if it's like what you're describing I question the ethics of this whole setup.

Some of the things that they explained in the analysis, e.g. the oedipal complex, is relevant to me.

Oedipal complex, seriously? :confused:
 
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your program sounds terrible.
 
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They didn't tell you that you were being observed?

It sounds like you're not in the US and different standards may apply, but if it's like what you're describing I question the ethics of this whole setup.



Oedipal complex, seriously? :confused:

They sit in the room when they observe and it's clear they're analysing the client just as much as the counsellor. Regarding the videos, they never said they would watch them except the final transcript that we submit. I've recently figured out that the footage (students film on an sd card) also remains on the camera. I use my own camera as counsellor but will be on their cameras as client.

I'm not in the U.S. no, but wish I was. I'm in the UK. I've recently started to question the ethics of the college too even though it apparently has a good reputation!

They said it was the 'oedipal complex'. Is that right?
 
your program sounds terrible.

Yes. It is. I resent giving them my money. We often complain about the terrible lectures and often come out feeling more confused than beforehand.
 
Sorry that it's unclear. I don't think it was about me but the one similarity we had was our culture. When they asked if any of us noticed similarities, I said culture connection. The tutor then said, 'this client could be you then, eh?' I said no, in particular because the age range was wrong. Guess what? While we were in groups, they changed the age and one of the tutors laughed while looking at me and said, 'is that more like it?' It was still inaccurate. Anyway, after we had done our psychodynamic/person-centred analysis of the client, one of the tutors said, 'Do you any of you think you're this client?' Then she looked at me and said my name sarcastically. I just said 'no' but I felt like a target. Some of the things that they explained in the analysis, e.g. the oedipal complex, is relevant to me.
Can you see why I felt bullied and demeaned? I don't understand what is going on.

Oh, and they know our personal issues because when we do counselling practice with each other, we have to talk about real issues. That's a good way for them to analyze us I guess. They observe us sometimes. But there is a camera in one of the rooms and we use their videos to film ourselves for the final transcript assignment. So they have access to lots of footage of us. I've only just realised this recently though.
I don't even know what to say about much of this. Cultural stereotyping? Oedipal complex? Really? We all got mommy and daddy issues and oedipal complex tends to be a demeaning, loaded, and usually inaccurate way of framing it. Also, if you are from the non-dominant culture,, then they are probably slamming you intentionally and trying to keep you down.

Also, if you are a "betty" then how does Oedipal even apply? I thought it was for boys who were competing for mommy with daddy? The equivalent for girls would be electra complex with the whole penis envy thing which I don't understand or really agree with at all.
 
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This program sounds so sketchy for so many reasons.

1. Using outdated theoretical concepts (e.g. Oedipal complex) that are not supported by modern, evidence-based practices.

2. Poor boundaries and unprofessionalism in this mentoring situation from tutors.

3. Poor boundaries and dual relationship problems of students interviewing and analyzing each other for their real, personal problems and issues. It's on thing to act as mock patients, but a complete different and troubling situation to be using one's own personal life. Do you ever get to interview real patients? Why are you not practicing with them and recording your sessions?

4. Unethical behavior of using the video recordings for more than was originally agreed to or disclosed.

I don't know what the standards, certifications, or regulations are in the UK, but this does not sound at all like a good situation, both in terms of training and quality of life, regardless of where it occurs.
 
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This program sounds so sketchy for so many reasons.

1. Using outdated theoretical concepts (e.g. Oedipal complex) that are not supported by modern, evidence-based practices.

2. Poor boundaries and unprofessionalism in this mentoring situation from tutors.

3. Poor boundaries and dual relationship problems of students interviewing and analyzing each other for their real, personal problems and issues. It's on thing to act as mock patients, but a complete different and troubling situation to be using one's own personal life. Do you ever get to interview real patients? Why are you not practicing with them and recording your sessions?

4. Unethical behavior of using the video recordings for more than was originally agreed to or disclosed.

I don't know what the standards, certifications, or regulations are in the UK, but this does not sound at all like a good situation, both in terms of training and quality of life, regardless of where it occurs.

I second this.


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I don't even know what to say about much of this. Cultural stereotyping? Oedipal complex? Really? We all got mommy and daddy issues and oedipal complex tends to be a demeaning, loaded, and usually inaccurate way of framing it. Also, if you are from the non-dominant culture,, then they are probably slamming you intentionally and trying to keep you down.

Also, if you are a "betty" then how does Oedipal even apply? I thought it was for boys who were competing for mommy with daddy? The equivalent for girls would be electra complex with the whole penis envy thing which I don't understand or really agree with at all.

Yes, I am partly from a non-dominant culture so I think you're right. Oh, I hadn't even heard of the electra complex. They haven't taught us that ha ha!
 
This program sounds so sketchy for so many reasons.

1. Using outdated theoretical concepts (e.g. Oedipal complex) that are not supported by modern, evidence-based practices.

2. Poor boundaries and unprofessionalism in this mentoring situation from tutors.

3. Poor boundaries and dual relationship problems of students interviewing and analyzing each other for their real, personal problems and issues. It's on thing to act as mock patients, but a complete different and troubling situation to be using one's own personal life. Do you ever get to interview real patients? Why are you not practicing with them and recording your sessions?

4. Unethical behavior of using the video recordings for more than was originally agreed to or disclosed.

I don't know what the standards, certifications, or regulations are in the UK, but this does not sound at all like a good situation, both in terms of training and quality of life, regardless of where it occurs.

Yes. I agree with your points. It's ironic because when they started talking about the Oedipal complex, I remember a voice in my head saying 'this is so outdated, surely there's something more recent?' I didn't dare say it out loud though. I'd appreciate any pointers on other theories to read.

I've never enjoyed talking as a client with my peers because there are things I don't want to talk about in such a short session, and also we're all inexperienced. We start a placement with real patients in our next year starting in September. I'm only in the first year which is theory heavy.

I chose the course because it is accredited by a British governing body for psychotherapists, but realise that means nothing. It is not good at all and I often have issues as a result of the unethical behaviour that I experience, and I'm not the only one either.
 
Well, I had been thinking maybe the OP was paranoid or something. Nevermind that. Those trainers sound off their rockers crazy. This is the kind of crazy and bad training that deserves an organized complaint to the chair, and then higher up if that goes nowhere.
 
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Well, I had been thinking maybe the OP was paranoid or something. Nevermind that. Those trainers sound off their rockers crazy. This is the kind of crazy and bad training that deserves an organized complaint to the chair, and then higher up if that goes nowhere.

I understand why you might have thought I was paranoid. I even questioned myself. But I know I am of sound mind and it is them who have messed with my head. I agree about the complaint, but not sure about doing that when I'm mid course.
 
hi Betty,

You strike me as a kind person.

I have also dealt with situations where my skin color seemed to be a problem. As a black man, I have perceived discrimination...perceived being the salient point. But my perceptions drastically changed when I built up my self-esteem and confidence. The moment you become successful, productive, and give yourself a ton of options, (you do all this by working hard and picking up skills) the less you perceive any interaction with people as abusive. Your capacity to deal with conflict also drastically increases.

Not saying this is the case here. It seems to be an issue with the program. However, if you are in a really shoddy program, you really have to question if you're working hard enough and getting the skills you need to be valuable in this field.


I understand why you might have thought I was paranoid. I even questioned myself. But I know I am of sound mind and it is them who have messed with my head. I agree about the complaint, but not sure about doing that when I'm mid course.
 
hi Betty,

You strike me as a kind person.

I have also dealt with situations where my skin color seemed to be a problem. As a black man, I have perceived discrimination...perceived being the salient point. But my perceptions drastically changed when I built up my self-esteem and confidence. The moment you become successful, productive, and give yourself a ton of options, (you do all this by working hard and picking up skills) the less you perceive any interaction with people as abusive. Your capacity to deal with conflict also drastically increases.

Not saying this is the case here. It seems to be an issue with the program. However, if you are in a really shoddy program, you really have to question if you're working hard enough and getting the skills you need to be valuable in this field.
As a black man... • r/AsABlackMan
 
I dunno, if students are being forced to discuss their own issues in the class, and then being demeaned or insulted based on those disclosures, seems like a legitimate use of safe/unsafe to me. As in, if a client goes to dinner and overheard their therapist at the next table talking about their case with friends, disclosures to that therapist no longer feel safe. I'm not picking up that the OP is calling this trauma and it sounds like a pretty toxic environment to me. Get the implication that OP fears retribution if they do make a complaint. "Unsafe" sounds like reasonable shorthand to me.
 
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@bettyxx I'm sorry you're going through all this. Here in the US some programs strongly recommend that trainees receive personal psychotherapy of their own, although that's less common nowadays. Regardless, there should be a firewall between your own personal therapy/analysis and your training activities. Period.
 
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I dunno, if students are being forced to discuss their own issues in the class, and then being demeaned or insulted based on those disclosures, seems like a legitimate use of safe/unsafe to me. As in, if a client goes to dinner and overheard their therapist at the next table talking about their case with friends, disclosures to that therapist no longer feel safe. I'm not picking up that the OP is calling this trauma and it sounds like a pretty toxic environment to me. Get the implication that OP fears retribution if they do make a complaint. "Unsafe" sounds like reasonable shorthand to me.
Agree with that and that was how we used it back in my training. These days it seems like the term has been hijacked along with triggered to refer to all kinds of other stuff. Not sure if that has happened in the U.K. where OP is training.

On a related note, had a teen the other day say that they felt unsafe when people are using the wrong pronoun. Funny part was that the kid changes pronouns based on how they feel at the moment and for me to question the functional aspects of this would probably make them feel unsafe. I figured out that if I used they and them then I was safe regardless of how they felt that day. These millennials seem to be getting weirder by the moment. Makes me feel like an old fuddy duddy.
 
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I dunno, if students are being forced to discuss their own issues in the class, and then being demeaned or insulted based on those disclosures, seems like a legitimate use of safe/unsafe to me. As in, if a client goes to dinner and overheard their therapist at the next table talking about their case with friends, disclosures to that therapist no longer feel safe. I'm not picking up that the OP is calling this trauma and it sounds like a pretty toxic environment to me. Get the implication that OP fears retribution if they do make a complaint. "Unsafe" sounds like reasonable shorthand to me.

Thank you for validating my use of "unsafe". The boundaries are very blurred at that place and it just feels wrong. I had a bad feeling a couple of weeks ago, so I made something up when I was in the role of client. I'm really starting to trust my intuition more and I believe I'm right. I think that the rude tutor doesn't like the fact that I saw through her from the start. Behind closed doors, none of my peers have nice things to say about her. It's all so fake.
 
@bettyxx I'm sorry you're going through all this. Here in the US some programs strongly recommend that trainees receive personal psychotherapy of their own, although that's less common nowadays. Regardless, there should be a firewall between your own personal therapy/analysis and your training activities. Period.

Thank you for your empathy MamaPhD. For our program, personal psychotherapy is obligatory. I've certainly needed it as a result of that debacle. Yes, you're right that there should be a firewall. Oh, I've just thought of something else. Our academic assignments have to include our own personal experience (personal therapy/counselling practice). I've been very open in mine and it's been commended, but on the flip side it's given them more information about me. Gosh, the more I talk about it, the more I don't like it.
 
Thank you for your empathy MamaPhD. For our program, personal psychotherapy is obligatory. I've certainly needed it as a result of that debacle. Yes, you're right that there should be a firewall. Oh, I've just thought of something else. Our academic assignments have to include our own personal experience (personal therapy/counselling practice). I've been very open in mine and it's been commended, but on the flip side it's given them more information about me. Gosh, the more I talk about it, the more I don't like it.

It's appropriate to talk with a clinical supervisor about your personal reactions to clients/patients and what you add to the process when working with another person, but when it crosses over into "...and that brings up a lot of stuff for me about back when xyz happened in my life" then it becomes an issue for you to address in your own psychotherapy. Your tutors have terrible boundaries and should know better.
 
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It's appropriate to talk with a clinical supervisor about your personal reactions to clients/patients and what you add to the process when working with another person, but when it crosses over into "...and that brings up a lot of stuff for me about back when xyz happened in my life" then it becomes an issue for you to address in your own psychotherapy. Your tutors have terrible boundaries and should know better.

I agree with you. I can't wait to get out into the real world next year when I start my placement with real supervision.
I was just thinking about something else that happened. Before the case study the rude tutor made a comment that related to something I wrote in the last essay in which I mentioned my culture. She said that people from my culture are animated and can appear to be angry when they're not. That's true to a certain extent, but in my essay I referred to the fact that not everyone from my culture is truly angry. I would say that I know my own experiences better than she does! Anyway, I knew it was a dig at me and I ignored her while writing in my notebook. If it comes up again, maybe I should say something.

I'm also wondering how to behave at the next session if the same thing happens. I think I may be inclined to react, but I wonder if that's what they want because they're pushing my buttons. A non reaction like last time may annoy them more. But I'm not sure about the best way to deal with these people. Play them at their own game? I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thank you.
 
I'm also wondering how to behave at the next session if the same thing happens. I think I may be inclined to react, but I wonder if that's what they want because they're pushing my buttons. A non reaction like last time may annoy them more. But I'm not sure about the best way to deal with these people. Play them at their own game? I'd appreciate any suggestions.

This is a game you can't win, so don't play. My advice would be to have a private conversation, outside the classroom, and tell them that you are uncomfortable with how they talk about your culture in terms of misleading stereotypes, and this not only affects you but also others in the class who deserve a more meaningful discussion of cultural differences. It is not your job to educate them about cultural competence. I would escalate the matter to the department head if this continues.
 
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This is a game you can't win, so don't play. My advice would be to have a private conversation, outside the classroom, and tell them that you are uncomfortable with how they talk about your culture in terms of misleading stereotypes, and this not only affects you but also others in the class who deserve a more meaningful discussion of cultural differences. It is not your job to educate them about cultural competence. I would escalate the matter to the department head if this continues.

Thank you. You're right. I will talk with them if it persists and then go to the head if it continues. The rude tutor likes to make a point that she is the head's colleague and knows him well, and that he trusts her. Probably to scare us.
This has affected me more than I thought it would as a week has passed. But thank you to everyone who has commented here. It's really helped me to hear your views and support.
 
Just an update. They seem to have toned down their behaviour.

But I would like to share something else I'm uneasy about at college. In a few weeks' time we have our final self/peer/tutor appraisal, which involves each of us voicing our peers' strengths as a therapist and their growing edge. We also have to say yes or no in terms of whether we feel they should go onto the next year at college. I feel really uneasy about that. Firstly, I don't feel we're qualified to answer that. And it could lead to some people being publicly humiliated if people say 'no'. One of my peers said she's going to refuse to answer the yes/no question and I'm inclined to do the same. I already sense that the tutors will say no to me and I just don't want to experience that. I feel that the exercise is unethical and judgmental.

I'd appreciate your wise words of wisdom. Thank you.
 
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Just an update. They seem to have toned down their behaviour.

But I would like to share something else I'm uneasy about at college. In a few weeks' time we have our final self/peer/tutor appraisal, which involves each of us voicing our peers' strengths as a therapist and their growing edge. We also have to say yes or no in terms of whether we feel they should go onto the next year at college. I feel really uneasy about that. Firstly, I don't feel we're qualified to answer that. And it could lead to some people being publicly humiliated if people say 'no'. One of my peers said she's going to refuse to answer the yes/no question and I'm inclined to do the same. I already sense that the tutors will say no to me and I just don't want to experience that. I feel that the exercise is unethical and judgmental.

I'd appreciate your wise words of wisdom. Thank you.
Setting people up for potential public shaming, not ethical in my book at all.
 
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