unintellectual med students

[Armadillos]

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I think people are getting ahead of themselves when they say there is no deep understanding or thinking in medicine after only considering medical school. It would be like taking a middle school grammar class and then saying there is no room for creativity in the humanities. We are just learning the basics so we can have some idea of what is going on and not kill people, the deeper understandings will come later (if you want them to).

 

[Frank22]

For real man, does even this have to be political. I swear people like you are the ones who sit around all day watching opinion news channels, and think about politics all day. Go watch ESPN and relax.

Why don't we have a shot of Hennessey and light a blunt up before we check our patients too.

 

[username456789]

Why don't we have a shot of Hennessey and light a blunt up before we check our patients too.

You didn't do so hot on the "analogy" questions on the SAT, did ya?

Have you even taken the SAT yet?

Edit: nevermind, after a quick look at your other recent posts, it's clear you're in the midst of studying for the SAT with the vocab book your parents bought you. The square-peg-round-hole method of forcing words into phrases and sentences is a dead giveaway.

Good luck!

 

[Frank22]

You didn't do so hot on the "analogy" questions on the SAT, did ya?

Have you even taken the SAT yet?

Edit: nevermind, after a quick look at your other recent posts, it's clear you're in the midst of studying for the SAT with the vocab book your parents bought you. The square-peg-round-hole method of forcing words into phrases and sentences is a dead giveaway.

Good luck!

If you mean that I'm a few semesters away from applying to dental school, you are right, but given how you pout off your dermatology residency in your other posts it is clear you are another paradigm of an intellectually shallow, blue-collar mentality physician who went into his career to be called "doctor" by his patients and make close to a seven-figure salary a year. 👎

 

[username456789]

If you mean that I'm a few semesters away from applying to dental school, you are right, but given how you pout off your dermatology residency in your other posts it is clear you are another paradigm of an intellectually shallow, blue-collar mentality physician who went into his career to be called "doctor" by his patients and make close to a seven-figure salary a year. 👎

I have never witnessed someone sabotage themselves so badly and so frequently than after reading your posts.

It's like watching the Titanic slowly sink, and realizing the captain is ordering more water be brought aboard.

[Incidentally, I haven't "pouted off" about my Derm residency at all . . . I quite like it, ain't no pouting here (despite the volume of reading I'm stuck with currently). I have mentioned it when it is germane to the discussion. It's unfortunate that you're somehow threatened or put off by that, but it says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.]

 

[todds]

QFT.

As an example: in grad school for pharmacology we spent entire lectures on 1 drug with the goal of understanding exactly how and why it worked (and also why it doesn't in some people). Chemical structure, intracellular signaling pathways, gene polymorphisms, drug interactions, resistance, etc... In med school, drugs are often just 2-3 ppt slides in a lecture on a whole class of drugs.

Unfortunately, med school is by nature superficial learning. There just isn't enough time for in-depth understanding and "intellectual curiosity" when it comes to basic sciences. If you want more intellectual style learning you'll need to do either an MD/MS or MD/PhD.

You will start doing this more in depth studying for pharmacology in residency and/or fellowship. For example, just look at some of the review books for cardiology boards, or Infectious Disease boards. The in-depth stuff comes later for people who really work with it on a regular basis.

As a medical student, you learn the general stuff so you know what the drug is, what its used for etc.. If you are a generalist who sees the drug often may prescribe it once in a while, you read up on as much as you can, but if you're in a field where you use it regularly and should be an expert on it, then you should know almost everything on it.

 

[username456789]

You will start doing this more in depth studying for pharmacology in residency and/or fellowship. For example, just look at some of the review books for cardiology boards, or Infectious Disease boards. The in-depth stuff comes later for people who really work with it on a regular basis.

As a medical student, you learn the general stuff so you know what the drug is, what its used for etc.. If you are a generalist who sees the drug often may prescribe it once in a while, you read up on as much as you can, but if you're in a field where you use it regularly and should be an expert on it, then you should know almost everything on it.

Definitely agree here. Med school gives you a foundation, but in residency (at least in a more specialized field), you will become very very familiar with many more intricate details about certain medications (and molecular/genetic processes, disease etiology/pathophysiology, etc).

Medical school is just the beginning.

 

[Frank22]

I have never witnessed someone sabotage themselves so badly and so frequently than after reading your posts.

It's like watching the Titanic slowly sink, and realizing the captain is ordering more water be brought aboard.

[Incidentally, I haven't "pouted off" about my Derm residency at all . . . I quite like it, ain't no pouting here (despite the volume of reading I'm stuck with currently). I have mentioned it when it is germane to the discussion. It's unfortunate that you're somehow threatened or put off by that, but it says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.]

I never said I was threatened or put off by anything, but I am disgusted by your supercilious and pre-suppositional nature. No need to tell me what you think about me; I didn't ask and couldn't care less.

 

[username456789]

I never said I was threatened or put off by anything, but I am disgusted by your supercilious and pre-suppositional nature. No need to tell me what you think about me; I didn't ask and couldn't care less.

This just keeps getting better. Thank you.

 

[mcloaf]

If you mean that I'm a few semesters away from applying to dental school, you are right

Definitely somebody whose informed opinion is of much value to an allopathic medical student subforum.

😕

Plz go.

 

[notbobtrustme]

If you mean that I'm a few semesters away from applying to dental school, you are right, but given how you pout off your dermatology residency in your other posts it is clear you are another paradigm of an intellectually shallow, blue-collar mentality physician who went into his career to be called "doctor" by his patients and make close to a seven-figure salary a year. 👎

sounds like you're jealous.

And I find it supremely ironic that a potential pre-dental ragging on an a dermatologist for pursuing money.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

If you mean that I'm a few semesters away from applying to dental school, you are right, but given how you pout off your dermatology residency in your other posts it is clear you are another paradigm of an intellectually shallow, blue-collar mentality physician who went into his career to be called "doctor" by his patients and make close to a seven-figure salary a year. 👎

Oh damn a few semesters away from APPLYING to DENTAL SCHOOL.

Hold on fellas this guy's legit.

 

[Shjanzey]

.

 

[Frank22]

sounds like you're jealous.

And I find it supremely ironic that a potential pre-dental ragging on an a dermatologist for pursuing money.

I don't know what a "potential pre-dental" is, and I don't know if you're joking when you say I sound like I'm jealous.

Oh damn a few semesters away from APPLYING to DENTAL SCHOOL.

Hold on fellas this guy's legit.

Your usual pre-medical student on this forum making lame sarcastic jokes without even reading what was wrote. Take a look at the poster who you're defending who replied to my comment which had nothing to do with getting into medical school first before you begin popping off at the mouth.

Definitely somebody whose informed opinion is of much value to an allopathic medical student subforum.

😕

Plz go.

Did I say my post had anything to do with getting into medical school? How are you going to be a doctor if you can't read?

Please don't respond to my message, I probably wouldn't be able to comprehend the deep philosophical implications of your words. Furthermore, none of what I wrote is really germane to the malarkey in this thread, after all I am certainly not an intellectual!

And it's clear the intellectual nature of this forum given 95% of the members have not moved beyond the complexity of ad hominem arguments.

 

[Doctor Bob]

When there's an interesting looking thread that has 2+ pages, I'll usually just start reading at the top of the last page, hoping that I'll be able to get the gist of the thread without having to slog through all of the older posts.

After reading the last page, I gave up and had to go back to the start of the first page, and I still have no idea what this thread is about.

 

[VisionaryTics]

I don't know what a "potential pre-dental" is, and I don't know if you're joking when you say I sound like I'm jealous.



Your usual pre-medical student on this forum making lame sarcastic jokes without even reading what was wrote. Take a look at the poster who you're defending who replied to my comment which had nothing to do with getting into medical school first before you begin popping off at the mouth.



Did I say my post had anything to do with getting into medical school? How are you going to be a doctor if you can't read?



And it's clear the intellectual nature of this forum given 95% of the members have not moved beyond the complexity of ad hominem arguments.

 

[Fatalis]

@OP, wait till you do pathophys or even path...then you will figure out the "why"

 

[cs24]

It's true though---do you think back in the 70s when Boomers were being educated they had to go through rounds of interviews to test their capacity for 'empathy' and 'demonstrate' their dedication to the medical field through BS research and volunteer activities? All this bull**** only started recently due to the paradigm shift...it's like all the causes for supporting women in medicine despite the fact the medical profession and medical school is now majority female...

Medicine was once a very intellectual profession and most great writers, thinkers, and intellectuals up until about 40 years ago or so were doctors...meanwhile the profession has lost nearly all its sanctity and purity due to the decisions of a single generation.

If you check out my handle you'd see I am not American so I don't watch your shows

Not all the new changes are bad. Do you really think that empathy for your patients and research experience for physicians are bad things? And if you are simply saying that people are faking these traits to get into med school, what would YOU do differently to select doctors than the current system that would be so much better?

Also please define the "sanctity and purity" that used to be present in the medical field before the liberal filth took over.

You seem to be looking at the past through some seriously rose-tinted glasses.

 

[514901]

Not all the new changes are bad. Do you really think that empathy for your patients and research experience for physicians are bad things? And if you are simply saying that people are faking these traits to get into med school, what would YOU do differently to select doctors than the current system that would be so much better?

Also please define the "sanctity and purity" that used to be present in the medical field before the liberal filth took over.

You seem to be looking at the past through some seriously rose-tinted glasses.

Medicine used to have a very rich, metaphysical and spiritual nature and most great writers up until the late 1900s had a background in medicine. If you go into your local bookstore (if they still exist in America) you're likely to find some garbage about some Asian woman surgeon discussing her 'crisis' to find balance between being a doctor and having kids.

if you think **** like 'empathy' is something that can be taught and can be objectively assessed in examinations you are deluding yourself. Medicine used to be respectable and pure because the profession accepted that every doctor had his own approach to the craft, whereas now the profession has turned into a herd mentality with an instruction manual on now to attempt to function as a sentient physician, and ironically (or non-ironically, depending on your position) in its focus on empathy and patient awareness it has stripped the humanity out of the profession.

There was a huge paradigm shift that began in the 80s that coincided with Boomers taking over power in developed countries and the corporatization of every aspect of life.

 

[deleted480308]

I don't know what it has to do with intellect but this is my third career and Having just finished the application process I've never seen anything quite like medicine. Rooms full of people who worked their buts off to get interviews so they spend 7-10yrs of training and accumulate hundreds of thousands in debt in exchange for a promise of a high and stable salary. These same people are then paraded through some ridiculous contest to see who can promise to hate money the most. 90% of us want to move to frontier montana for medicare pediatrics pay? Or donate six months each year to orphans in cameroon? Or staff a free clinic in compton for 50% of earning potential? There are a few of us that really are attracted to those types of things but most people are not, and there is nothing wrong with not wanting that for your life. But the silly process somehow expects everyone to pretend to be mother theresa as a method of gaining points. It's the first process I've been a part of where you had to work so hard to "prove" you had no interest in the very clear profitability of the profession. I love country living and my family were farmers but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, I know country living isn't for most people and I know my standard of living in the country will be different as a doctor than if I was hanging drywall. I don't understand the need for peope to install a facade as opposed to saying "l'm smart and will work hard so my patients get great care.....even if the great care will be limited to expensive face lifts for trophy wives in beverly hills". We have installed a level of acting to this process that does nothing to improve patient outcomes.

 

[514901]

I don't know what it has to do with intellect but this is my third career and Having just finished the application process I've never seen anything quite like medicine. Rooms full of people who worked their buts off to get interviews so they spend 7-10yrs of training and accumulate hundreds of thousands in debt in exchange for a promise of a high and stable salary. These same people are then paraded through some ridiculous contest to see who can promise to hate money the most. 90% of us want to move to frontier montana for medicare pediatrics pay? Or donate six months each year to orphans in cameroon? Or staff a free clinic in compton for 50% of earning potential? There are a few of us that really are attracted to those types of things but most people are not, and there is nothing wrong with not wanting that for your life. But the silly process somehow expects everyone to pretend to be mother theresa as a method of gaining points. It's the first process I've been a part of where you had to work so hard to "prove" you had no interest in the very clear profitability of the profession. I love country living and my family were farmers but I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, I know country living isn't for most people and I know my standard of living in the country will be different as a doctor than if I was hanging drywall. I don't understand the need for peope to install a facade as opposed to saying "l'm smart and will work hard so my patients get great care.....even if the great care will be limited to expensive face lifts for trophy wives in beverly hills". We have installed a level of acting to this process that does nothing to improve patient outcomes.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[e30ftw]

If you mean that I'm a few semesters away from applying to dental school, you are right, but given how you pout off your dermatology residency in your other posts it is clear you are another paradigm of an intellectually shallow, blue-collar mentality physician who went into his career to be called "doctor" by his patients and make close to a seven-figure salary a year. 👎

omfg lmao. clicking on this thread was worth it thank you.

 

[yehhhboiii]

I never said I was threatened or put off by anything, but I am disgusted by your supercilious and pre-suppositional nature. No need to tell me what you think about me; I didn't ask and couldn't care less.

lol you been on thesaurus.com or something bro?

 

[Kahreek]

blue-collar mentality physician

wow, this is high grade bigotry, i the more i think about it the more disgusting it gets.


IN topic:
Suck it up , finish med school, and then do research in your area. Med school isnt about developing new ideas, it is about learning to do a job right.

 

[Koalafied]

wow, this is high grade bigotry, i the more i think about it the more disgusting it gets.

We're all as well.

 

[PrideNeverDie]

i know all you pre-meds and pre-dents are perturbed by this thread because you are working so hard to get into med school so any negative thread seems entitled.

however, if you look at the post of the other med students in this thread, you can see that this is quite common.

i have classmates that not only are disinterested in any subject matter outside of medicine, but they will also shut down any conversation that tries to gain understanding beyond the assigned books and powerpoints also.

 

[yehhhboiii]

i know all you pre-meds and pre-dents are perturbed by this thread because you are working so hard to get into med school so any negative thread seems entitled.

however, if you look at the post of the other med students in this thread, you can see that this is quite common.

i have classmates that not only are disinterested in any subject matter outside of medicine, but they will also shut down any conversation that tries to gain understanding beyond the assigned books and powerpoints also.

well there's only so much time to study and memorize everything
you can barely take in what you need to know
why waste time discussing things that even the experts aren't sure about?

 

[Food]

Does anybody feel similarly to me?

I'm an M1 and I find that most of my peers do not seem very intellectually curious. While many of them have done research and are certainly very intelligent, I feel that they're very practical-minded and do not seem to care about understanding why/how things work, and the greater context, and about experimental design. I feel so out of place because I loved talking about philosophy and art and mathematics in undergrad, but now I feel like that has been mostly replaced with conversations on very ... practical, day-to-day things. This general mindset seems to spill over into the way people approach studying and learning the material (which is admittedly a rote-memorization sort of deal, no way around it... but they just have no desire to learn more or learn why).

🙁

It's too early for me to make a decision about dropping out of med school vs staying in, but has anybody else felt this way? I've been hanging out with the PhD students and I feel much more at home.

You're not alone - there are others among you. You find other people in your class with whom you share a similar outlook / interest in engaging in higher level discussion about really esoteric topics. There won't be many, but they are there. Don't drop out on account of that, things get better / you find your comfort zone eventually. These are just the problems of practical life. When you get a job (regardless of field) you can't always control who your colleagues / peers are and yes, most of them will be entirely content discussing the pointless mundane problems of daily life.

 

[cs24]

Medicine used to have a very rich, metaphysical and spiritual nature and most great writers up until the late 1900s had a background in medicine. If you go into your local bookstore (if they still exist in America) you're likely to find some garbage about some Asian woman surgeon discussing her 'crisis' to find balance between being a doctor and having kids.

if you think **** like 'empathy' is something that can be taught and can be objectively assessed in examinations you are deluding yourself. Medicine used to be respectable and pure because the profession accepted that every doctor had his own approach to the craft, whereas now the profession has turned into a herd mentality with an instruction manual on now to attempt to function as a sentient physician, and ironically (or non-ironically, depending on your position) in its focus on empathy and patient awareness it has stripped the humanity out of the profession.

There was a huge paradigm shift that began in the 80s that coincided with Boomers taking over power in developed countries and the corporatization of every aspect of life.

Oh please. Your problem with modern medicine is that we don't have enough writers in the field and that physicians aren't spiritual or metaphysical enough? Tell me how that is going to improve patient care. Back in the day of the glorified intellectual physician there was so much less medical knowledge to have to understand that physicians could spend a ton of time writing, philosophizing, or whatever else moved them, but nowadays you have to work and study medicine constantly just to stay on top of your field. The medical literature doubles something like every 8 years now.

As far as the empathy thing, like I said before tell me how you would do it better if you were in admissions. It may be a little excessive the amount of volunteer work/dedication to service that is usually required to get in, but I still think empathy should be something that is taken into consideration into the admissions process.

You call medicine a "craft". You seem to have a problem with medicine slowly turning into a science, because it turns out a bunch of herd-following automaton physicians. I'm sorry, but that is the way the field has to go (not the automaton part, the science part). No matter how you want to practice your "craft," you are not doing what is best for your patients if you go against evidence-based practices for the sake of autonomy. Certainly there is still a place for clinical judgement, but I don't see what is wrong with an instruction manual for physicians that helps lay out best practices.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Medicine used to have a very rich, metaphysical and spiritual nature and most great writers up until the late 1900s had a background in medicine. If you go into your local bookstore (if they still exist in America) you're likely to find some garbage about some Asian woman surgeon discussing her 'crisis' to find balance between being a doctor and having kids

Yeah and most of the "doctors" up until the early 1900s slapped some leeches on people, gave them a little mercury/opium/trendy poison of the week and called it a day. Surgeries went along the lines of "get really drunk so you won't feel when I cut off your leg" or "here's some chloroform, hope you wake up at the end". We didn't even have antibiotics until the 1930s and penicillin wasn't mass produced until the 1940s...the medical fund of knowledge wasn't exactly vast for a while. There are entire sections of medical textbooks now (especially in pharm) that didn't exist 30 years ago.

Now, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that "most great writers" until the late 1900s had a background in medicine. Want to pull out a list of great writers and show me that most of them were physicians?

Edit: Whoops, said "late 1900s" in the beginning there...

 

[ToldYouSo]

Medicine used to have a very rich, metaphysical and spiritual nature and most great writers up until the late 1900s had a background in medicine. If you go into your local bookstore (if they still exist in America) you're likely to find some garbage about some Asian woman surgeon discussing her 'crisis' to find balance between being a doctor and having kids.

if you think **** like 'empathy' is something that can be taught and can be objectively assessed in examinations you are deluding yourself. Medicine used to be respectable and pure because the profession accepted that every doctor had his own approach to the craft, whereas now the profession has turned into a herd mentality with an instruction manual on now to attempt to function as a sentient physician, and ironically (or non-ironically, depending on your position) in its focus on empathy and patient awareness it has stripped the humanity out of the profession.

There was a huge paradigm shift that began in the 80s that coincided with Boomers taking over power in developed countries and the corporatization of every aspect of life.

Yeah things were so much better back in the old days!

sarcasm

 

[514901]

Oh please. Your problem with modern medicine is that we don't have enough writers in the field and that physicians aren't spiritual or metaphysical enough? Tell me how that is going to improve patient care. Back in the day of the glorified intellectual physician there was so much less medical knowledge to have to understand that physicians could spend a ton of time writing, philosophizing, or whatever else moved them, but nowadays you have to work and study medicine constantly just to stay on top of your field. The medical literature doubles something like every 8 years now.

As far as the empathy thing, like I said before tell me how you would do it better if you were in admissions. It may be a little excessive the amount of volunteer work/dedication to service that is usually required to get in, but I still think empathy should be something that is taken into consideration into the admissions process.

You call medicine a "craft". You seem to have a problem with medicine slowly turning into a science, because it turns out a bunch of herd-following automaton physicians. I'm sorry, but that is the way the field has to go (not the automaton part, the science part). No matter how you want to practice your "craft," you are not doing what is best for your patients if you go against evidence-based practices for the sake of autonomy. Certainly there is still a place for clinical judgement, but I don't see what is wrong with an instruction manual for physicians that helps lay out best practices.

There's nothing wrong with empathy but people express it in different ways and to attempt to instill (and assess) empathy systematically in different people with different views and backgrounds is idiotic. Can you agree to that?

 

[Textbookversion]

There are definitely more "bro" and sorority types in medicine than I thought there would be.

I have a genuine sense of curiosity about the world and I'm interested in pretty much every subject. There are plenty of people with that same personality, and also plenty who only read what they have to for school.

 

[Siggy]

Wtf is the point of this post? Intellectually curious?

http://xkcd.com/610/

Maybe after countless days of staring at medical texts people just want to talk about something fun like football? That makes them less "intellectually curious?" Give me a break Mr. MS1 at a top 10 school

 

[Siggy]

Solution:

1) Don't drop out, just graduate.

2) Do a residency in IM

3) +/- PhD

4) Work in academia

There you go, the ticket to mental masturbation heaven 🙂

By "IM" you really mean "neurology," right?

 

[Trogghunter]

I just put 10 sutures into a man's palm who sliced it opening hot dogs with a box cutter and one who got into a fight with his grandson, and i resuscitated another just before that who was completely ODd/ projectile vomiting....this over intellectualization has limited place in medicine that requires patient interaction. I'd focus on learning some social skills or go into research because medicine will drive you nuts. Also no patient or nurse/tech wants to be talked down to. Learn that or you're going to be very miserable come m3m4.

 

[cs24]

There's nothing wrong with empathy but people express it in different ways and to attempt to instill (and assess) empathy systematically in different people with different views and backgrounds is idiotic. Can you agree to that?

Not really. Just because it is difficult to instill or assess empathy doesn't mean admissions/med schools shouldn't try to. They won't be right all the time, but hopefully they keep moving in the right direction. I also still don't understand why you think attempting to recruit empathetic physicians is going to hurt medicine.

 

[514901]

Not really. Just because it is difficult to instill or assess empathy doesn't mean admissions/med schools shouldn't try to. They won't be right all the time, but hopefully they keep moving in the right direction. I also still don't understand why you think attempting to recruit empathetic physicians is going to hurt medicine.

I don't think I can even respond to this...I'll let you believe what you want.

 

[GoldensteinVK]

Why in god's name would that be something to drop out over?

seriously.👍

 

[IonClaws]

Wtf is the point of this post? Intellectually curious?

http://xkcd.com/610/

Maybe after countless days of staring at medical texts people just want to talk about something fun like football? That makes them less "intellectually curious?" Give me a break Mr. MS1 at a top 10 school

I think the point is that intellectually curious people WILL find scientific/etc. things fun.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I think the point is that intellectually curious people WILL find scientific/etc. things fun.

Listen even people that like research and whatnot will still rather talk about the Bears game after class than about tyrosine kinase receptors or put on some Tchaikovsky and sip some wine.

The fact of the matter is that many people would rather kick back with a beer and pizza and watch some football (american or not) /basketball/Breaking Bad in their spare time as opposed to discussing Proust around the dining room table.

 

[IonClaws]

Listen even people that like research and whatnot will still rather talk about the Bears game after class than about tyrosine kinase receptors or put on some Tchaikovsky and sip some wine.

The fact of the matter is that many people would rather kick back with a beer and pizza and watch some football (american or not) /basketball/Breaking Bad in their spare time as opposed to discussing Proust around the dining room table.

You mean these "intellectual" people would really rather do non-intellectual things?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

You mean these "intellectual" people would really rather do non-intellectual things?

Yes that's exactly what I mean...as in your idea of an "intellectual" person isn't some one size fits all idea.

 

[KnuxNole]

Listen even people that like research and whatnot will still rather talk about the Bears game after class than about tyrosine kinase receptors or put on some Tchaikovsky and sip some wine.

The fact of the matter is that many people would rather kick back with a beer and pizza and watch some football (american or not) /basketball/Breaking Bad in their spare time as opposed to discussing Proust around the dining room table.

This. Noone in med school should be shocked that people prefer to shoot the breeze for the most part. After all, med students are normal people in their 20s(and 30s) who like to talk about sports, TV shows, general things about life. Yes, people like to discuss "intellectual" stuff. However, like said above, you'll most likely hear talk about how the Bears will go 1-15 and Cutler being trash vs. new scientific discoveries.

 

[fourhumours]

This thread is about as coherent as monty python sketch...also made me laugh just as much. good show!

 

[cs24]

I don't think I can even respond to this...I'll let you believe what you want.

Glad you are continuing your trend of backing up your blanket statements with evidence and/or logic 🙄

 

[as1212559]

LOL. Strong original post.

 

[IonClaws]

Yes that's exactly what I mean...as in your idea of an "intellectual" person isn't some one size fits all idea.

If a fondness for intellectual activities doesn't define whether someone is intellectual, what does? Keep in mind intellectual doesn't necessary refer to class or even research.

This. Noone in med school should be shocked that people prefer to shoot the breeze for the most part. After all, med students are normal people in their 20s(and 30s) who like to talk about sports, TV shows, general things about life. Yes, people like to discuss "intellectual" stuff. However, like said above, you'll most likely hear talk about how the Bears will go 1-15 and Cutler being trash vs. new scientific discoveries.

In other words, you agree with OP.

Not really. Just because it is difficult to instill or assess empathy doesn't mean admissions/med schools shouldn't try to. They won't be right all the time, but hopefully they keep moving in the right direction. I also still don't understand why you think attempting to recruit empathetic physicians is going to hurt medicine.

I disagree with this. I don't think doing something is better than doing nothing. Especially when that something is as subjective as assessing empathy, the committee's personal bias(es) may actually be pretty damaging by overlooking candidates who would otherwise make competent physicians but don't fit into what is really an arbitrarily defined box of "empathy." And to be perfectly honest, it's more important that a physician is competent at delivering care than empathetic.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

If a fondness for intellectual activities doesn't define whether someone is intellectual, what does? Keep in mind intellectual doesn't necessary refer to class or even research.



In other words, you agree with OP.



I disagree with this. I don't think doing something is better than doing nothing. Especially when that something is as subjective as assessing empathy, the committee's personal bias(es) may actually be pretty damaging by overlooking candidates who would otherwise make competent physicians but don't fit into what is really an arbitrarily defined box of "empathy." And to be perfectly honest, it's more important that a physician is competent at delivering care than empathetic.

I can be "fond" of intellectual activities without wanting to do them all the time, kapeesh? Just like I really like lemonheads but I don't eat them every day.

 

[cs24]

I disagree with this. I don't think doing something is better than doing nothing. Especially when that something is as subjective as assessing empathy, the committee's personal bias(es) may actually be pretty damaging by overlooking candidates who would otherwise make competent physicians but don't fit into what is really an arbitrarily defined box of "empathy." And to be perfectly honest, it's more important that a physician is competent at delivering care than empathetic.

I think I see where you are going with this, but I don't think that highly competent people with otherwise strong applications are going to get weeded out of the admissions process because they aren't empathetic enough. I certainly agree that competency alone is better than empathy alone, but both together is better than neither IMO.

If it is really beneath someone to do some service work (implied by other posters in this thread, not necessarily you) to get into medical school, then yes I am going to question their empathy, their desire to help people, etc. There is a lot more to medicine than just the science and physiology, and if somebody can't make it down to the local free clinic or soup kitchen 1x/month for a while then why should I believe they will be a good advocate for their patient when they need them? I also think that you are probably less likely to burn out if you enjoy helping people rather than viewing them as a burden, and schools don't want to waste resources on people who are going to drop out of the field.

If someone is more concerned with being an ivory-tower intellectual than dealing face to face with mundane, average people they should either get a Ph.D. and do biomedical research or fake enough service to get into medical school and then get into clinical research or some specialty with very little patient contact.